I don't know whether any of you here have had the same experience as I've had with my WH. Despite his horrible words and actions, he does SUCH a grand job of beating his chest and crying, "Mea culpa!" He has said he "doesn't want to hurt me"; he confesses to people that he's devastated over the situation, and over his actions; and when he was excommunicated, well! I think he just loved that; after all, he submitted himself to "punishment", and he'll take it on the chin. The other day I happened to accidentally catch sight of him as he walked to his car; he was shuffling, looking down, thoroughly dejected. He knew I was there, and I am am sure he did it for my benefit! Everything he says seems to be designed to confirm he's the good guy that he likes to think he is.

But as far as following his guilt with actions, such as true repentance, or ending it with the OW, or growing a backbone and being a present and involved father... that's another thing altogether.

Anyone else have a WS like this?

Also, what does the "guilt" mean? Frankly, I think it's a self-indulgence. Although there is a kind of "sacred guilt" that leads to change, you can, of course, get stuck in guilt forever, and the self-flagellation kind of stands as an adequate replacement for change. But I'm wondering, does guilt have ANY effect at all? I'm beginning to think in the case of infidelity, it doesn't. Does the end of the affair really have NOTHING to do with guilt over the horrendous damage caused to spouse and children and does it, at the end of the day, just boil down to what the Harleys say, that is squarely down to the A not meeting the WS's needs?

It's nearly three months since I went into Plan B and I have NOTHING to report. There's been very few violations of the conditions I set in the PBL on his part, and my absence from his life doesn't seem to have affected him in any way, and he's just taken it in stride. As a consequence, it hasn't even registered as a blip on his radar. Guilt appears to be a very comfortable position for him. I am certain that in a couple of months time, when he can legally apply for a divorce, he'll do it, and he'll be racked with "guilt" too, but the OW won't even figure as a decider in any of this, and she'll remain in the picture.

Guilt to a WS? That's a non-issue. They don't feel guilt, just put on a show. Now guilt by your H, he must be just dying on the inside. So what you see is a twisted and very confusing combo of the 2.

As for plan B, that's 4 u. So how have you been doing?

L.

Hi RT -

You might THINK that it is not effecting him....you never know.....

Plan B is for the BS, though like Orchid said. Are you feeling stronger as a result of being in Plan B?

Kim

Hi ladies, well, HECK YES I'm doing better thanks to Plan B. I had some severe withdrawal, but that's just par for the course, right? Once I knew what was going on with that, I was patient with myself and have worked through it. I still miss my H, but like all of us here, I can also see how MANY parts of my life are better without him.

Orchid, thanks for that insight, it didn't even occur to me that what I might be seeing is a combination of WH and H. Still... I don't see that the guilt is constructive in any shape or form... :-/

I'm not obsessing about this, truly I'm not. I still AM just thinking about myself and the kids! I'm just wondering.

Bumping up for an insight into this question here:

I think that guilt in a WS manifests itself in abuse of the BS.

I have been out of contact with my STBX for many months now, but the few times I have seen him, he acts as if I am the one who shattered our family. Once on the phone, (during exposure, I think it was) he burst into tears and cried about all the horrible things I used to say to him when we were together. Now I may be many things, but I'm not vicious with my tongue, and I'm not a nag. I think that OW was listening to this conversation.

Most of this WS pity party took place after he first left. As I said, I'm out of contact now and don't really know what's going on wth him. All I know now is how much he moans about money and how I've bankrupted him etc etc. And here I was, just trying to give him the divorce he wants. Guess he thought it would be free! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, guilt has put my STBX into 'sulk' mode. He's sulking because I won't talk to him, and because there's something nasty and hurtful lurking inside him. He can't put a name to it, he doesn't know why it's there - but it's guilt just the same.

But like you say, RiverTam - the guilt doesn't necessarily help bring the WS home. It makes them more unpleasant, more defensive. I think that guilt in a WS only reaches a certain level - ie it's enough to annoy them, make them uncomfortable (so they can blame you), but they can't let themselves feel it fully. Only a truly remorseful ex-cheater can do that.

Alph.

Oh, yeah, it DEFINITELY manifests as abuse. Been there, done than (pre-Plan B).

I agree with what you say, but this...


...brings me back to the question: if true guilt doesn't make an appearance until the A ends, then what ends the A? Is it just not having emotional needs met?

RT...

I've never posted to you before, but I'll try and take a stab at this since I am a FWS and you did say that you are "wondering" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

Guilt...hmmm...to a WS? Does it exist? Yes, but only in the sense that it exists to an addict...A WS KNOWS that what they are doing is wrong(which is the reason for all of the rationalizations, justifications and history rewrites)...They KNOW that they should stop because the A is hurting others(it's hurting them too, but that isn't how they see it then), but the "high" is just too good and intense...their sense of reality is so incredibly skewed, there really are no words to describe just how much...

When I look back at the person that I was during my A, I don't recognize her...there was so little of me present during that time...EVERYTHING that I did and said was completely out of character for me...maybe a better word for what the WS feels is CONFLICT rather than actual guilt...An example from my own situation may more easily illustrate this type of conflict...I am a Christian...during my A, I actively had to work to push thoughts of God out of my head...I KNEW that I was in active rebellion to Him...so I had to force myself not to think of Him...not to pray...I could not even read Christian FICTION-this particular book was part of a series that I was so into...when a new one came out I would be at the bookstore before they opened...I just couldn't wait...Yet at that time I was repelled by it...by ANYTHING that reinforced what I knew deep down...that what I was doing was so very WRONG...the conflict was a constant struggle for me...

That conflict is why WSes often say that they want to separate because they need "space"...what they need is a way to further distance themselves from the BS...It is a constant internal battle for the WS to not think about how horrible their actions are, but it is near impossible to do when in the company of the BS...the rationalizations, justifications and history rewrites are not as plausible with the BS right there-and wow, a BS in an effective plan A is Kryptonite to a WS...the WS's brain becomes so bogged down with that kind of obvious conflict...stuffing away or compartmentalizing their behaviors becomes totally unmanagable...it then becomes quite convenient for the WS to begin to blame the BS for "forcing" them to think about what they are doing(the justisfication being, "Well BS is so "controlling" and "pushy". I can't stand this anymore!")...In truth, for a WS there are few parts of life that don't involve great anxiety-though, of course, they don't recognize all of what they "feel" as such, hence they associate much of these "feelings" with the anticipation of being in contact with the OP, the anticipation of getting their next "fix"...Anxiety is caused by conflict...a WS is a cesspool of anxiety...

One might think that all this conflict and resulting anxiety would make even the dimmest amongst us "get" that an A is a no win situation...BUT NO, NOT THE WS...THE WS IS AN ADDICT...No addict wants to do anything that takes away from their "high"...The "high" really does have that much control over the WS...since the rest of their life is in utter chaos, they exist completely to get that "high" at all costs...all the while not ever seeing that the "high" is what is causing all the chaos...

RT, an addict must "hit rock bottom" before they help themselves..."rock bottom" for an affair is full tilt reality setting in...the reality that the OP isn't who they thought they were...the OP was only meeting some of their needs...the grass is NOT greener...and SOOOOO...many other realities...then, and only then, does the pain finally outweigh the payoff for a WS...It is a repentent FWS that has much GUILT and REGRET over that entire chunk of their life...A WS is too busy running from reality and their own thoughts, they don't really and truly *feel* anything except the "high" and even that is false...

I hope that maybe this provided some of the insight that you were seeking...I wish you peace and Godspeed in your personal recovery...I am so very sorry that you are going through this...Blessings to you...


Mrs. Wondering

I agree with MrsWondering

An effective plan A is Krytonite to a WS.

I did the plan A and plan B but was lousy at both because i didnt understand then what was needed to make them effective.

Its love and forgiveness that makes the whole thing work. It is not easy but time will help.

The MORE you love and forgive them (WS)...the MORE they will feel guilty...this guilt will make them realise how good you are compared to OP...suddenly your warts are no much bigger than the other.

I think my WH feels guilty on some level, and I think he is doing some of the classic things in reaction: blaming me ("You drove me to it"), rationalization ("a divorce will give you the chance to accomplish some goals and get more independent"), anger at me.

At this point, nothing I can do will satisfy him. If I am chatty and cheerful with him, the OW will say it is because I am trying to get him to reconcile. If I cut off all contact, the OW will say I am being vindictive and bitter.

I think we WS do feel guilt but sometimes confuse guilt with regret when in fact one cannot exist without the other. When I think of the guilt I feel I can now tell what part of it is regret and what part of it is truly guilt. Not only do I wish that I had never done what I did, but I have moments when I am not around my BH that it hits me just how much I hurt him and our already barely there marriage (at the time) that I almost can't breathe. This is something completely different than just wishing that I hadn't done it because I got caught beacuse I suffer it silently and deservedly. While on one hand the affair (was over more than a year ago and just discovered last week) taught me lessons about myself (that I can be weak, forget my own morals for times, how much I really needed my H) and and great lessons about marriage(continuous Work really is a part of it, it is hard sometimes but will get better, when I think we don't love each other anymore we can and will get back to being in love if we try) it was the most horrible, ugly, careless thing I have ever done in my life. While the lessons it taught me were good things in the end, I am sure that there was probably some other way I could have learned them in the long run than by betraying myself, my H, and my M.
I can't speak for other WS, but I am surprised that my guilt is not at all a factor in my wanting so badly to make my M survive this. It is a thing that I suffer through silently and know that I deserve. I think that a WS who says they feel guilt may very well be telling the truth. But I also know that those who are NOT truly sorry for what they did and don't wish that they had never let it happen will try to say they are suffering (from guilt) to make the BS feel sorry for them.

I was having a very rough morning and decided to check in for a min or two.. and i checked out your thread RT...i had the exact questions running thru my mind...and i so needed to hear Mrs.Wonderings post! I have struggled with "wondering" about the guilt with my WH now for months! Just really needed to hear that today!

Jaysmom

guilt ~during~ the affair

interesting topic

my H left me with our 2 school-age kids on father's day weekend to go begin his A ... a 400 mile drive distance. His cover story was .... he was going to visit his sick Dad.

18 months later ... the week after D day , I asked him

"What was it like, driving for 6 hours, knowing you were going to do this on FATHER'S DAY weekend while leaving your kids behind?"

his answer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> "I felt very guilty."

I said "You felt guilty for 6 hours and did not turn the car around?"

He shrugged his shoulders "I don't know."

guilt is not enough to stop a love-struck WS from keeping their appointment with shame

affairs are committed by the soul sick

I agree with Pep....

guilty is not enough...

My WS feels guilty.....and although 'unpleasant', it seems to be a 'comfort' zone feeling for WS..... is used to "it".... and 'high' of A is obviously worth the 'price'... at least for now.....

My WS seems to fight feeling 'guilty', because he feels it only 'represents' society's hold on us... and 'people' including me seem to want to say things to make him purposely feel guilty.... society's way of wanting to 'conform' us to society's 'dictated' values... WS seems to see it as being a way of rebelling against 'authority'.... 'society' and 'guilty feelings' must not prevail.... I know....fogtalk! He once claimed he saw himself and OW like Romeo and Juliet.... society wanting to keep them apart...... unfortunately as an afterthought only it came to me.... I should have asked: are you telling me you want to die!

PEP: If guilt did not make Mr. Pep 'turn around', what did? Had he already decided to end A when you learned about it? Did he tell you or did you find out? How was he 'acting' in retrospect while unknown to you, he was having A?

In my case, I came across OW's love letters at what apparently was at about 3 months into PA..... probably in the highest of the 'high'...... and even though initially promised NC......WS did not feel capable of NOT seeing her (on top of it, OW was/is co-worker)..... in retrospect.... I then realized that WS, on top of re-writing history..... during those 3 months that I did not know..... he was 'writing' history...... was very irritable.... and when speaking in anger....claimed he was not being taken seriously.... but I think he was purposely trying to 'justify' to himself why he 'needed' to be having an affair..... and how miserable he was in M....sooooo perfectly 'normal' for him to turn to OW...... I distinctly remember at one point....all of a sudden he stopped wanting to give me the 'usual' goodbye hug and kiss each morning....asked why?....claimed he felt it was too superficial...so why bother.....I told him it was important to me..... now, I guess why that would be so....compared to the 'passionate' encounters with the OW!

Anyway, I admit that sometimes I do wonder if the A would have had a 'natural' death if I had not found out..... would he have told me eventually...either ending M or ending A? ...but I don't waste too much time on that..... because I, and probably WS as well, will never know the answer to it.....

Even if I was not in PLAN B and I was talking to WS, I now realize it would be a total waste of time... because WS would not be able to 'hear' me.... WS is totally on a 'defensive' and 'justification' mode right now..... and anything I would have to say.....is considered either an attack or wanting to make him feel guilty.....so...no communication possible..... as long as he is with OW..... cannot commit to saying that the A is 'wrong'......and still stay in 'it'..... right now.... he is in the 'victim' mode.... it's how LIFE goes sometimes..... (he had nothing to do with it!)

.....I also wonder....after a while....not at first....does a WS/S get 'tired' of feeling guilty all the time.....and when A is no longer a 'high'......does it 'contribute' to WS's decision to end A as a way of 'stopping' the feelings of guilt!

Thanks RT, definitely an interesting topic of discussion to explore.

YES...YES...YES...

As usual Pep is so very correct...soul sick...a spot-on observation....

On the day that I was to go and meet my OM for a 2 week tryst...

my DD who was just 5 at the time woke up with diarrhea...not just once, but SEVERAL times...soiled a couple of outfits while I was getting her ready for school...obviously school was a no go...she was very ill...

Did I, the active WS, cancel or postpone my trip?

A rational person and mother would have...NOT the "soul sick" WS me though...

The fact that I chose to continue down my sick, destructive path and on my merry way into the arms of OM cuts through my soul so razor sharply today that it produces physical pain...really...typing this is close to unbareable...

GUILT...SHAME...REMORSE...REGRET...NAUSEA...HEADACHE...HEARTACHE...

I do not deserve the blessing that my family is to me...

Yes, I left my H with a sick child that he had to take to work with him, at the peak of our busy season...

even sicker still is that he KNEW where I was going when I left and I did it anyway...

Our Dday was only a couple of weeks before...(He found MB while I was gone)...He was already pretty adept at Plan A without even knowing it...He never even said anything like, "You can't leave me here with a sick child", he never yelled, screamed or cursed at me...He just said, something like "I love you, I don't accept what you are doing as right, but I love you and want you to come home quickly..."

He spent much of those two weeks in unimaginable pain...and much prayer...

Today I remain awed by him and his grace...He was my lighthouse...I love and admire him and am so blessed that he will have me...

Guilt and the WS spouse...on the 12 hour car ride I had some...

...but the WS becomes masterful at shoving those thoughts into a tiny compartment in the back of their brains...and rationalizing...and justifying...somewhere behind all of the craziness guilt is there, but not the kind a normal person would feel, not enough to change, not enough to end the A...

I even mentioned these thoughts to OM on the way down...OM helped me rationalize even that, by saying some nonsense about how it was high time that Mr. W learned to care for our child...

OM, who also had a DD5, wow, what a kind soul he was...the sicko that I was, I bought into the idea and clung to it...

I had to have my "high" after all...there are few things that an addict can't rationalize...in fact I'm not sure that there are any...

RT and others I shared this with you to give you a clearer picture of just how "soul sick" that a WS is...

...how selfish...how pitiful...how pathetic...

I know how hard this must be to grasp...I lived it and it is difficult for me too...

It is, however, an honest picture...

So, what ends an affair if not guilt?

...again, I say reality...

through exposure...

through Plan B...

time...

Not, I know, what a BS wants to hear...

I have always said here that I believe that the kind of love, strength and grace exhibited by a BS is the closest thing to the love of Christ that we on earth have yet to witness...

I really am awed by all of you...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. Wondering is speaking words that I have heard from my FWH...

Listen to what she is saying...

GOD BLESS YOU, MRS. WONDERING....

Wow. Just - wow.

I'm not sure what to say! Thank you all so much for some spectacular posts, particularly those from FWSs like Mrs. Wondering (pleased to meet you! - although I was already familiar with your story <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) and Desperatewife for the insight into the thought processes of the WS. Pep - as usual you made a big-impact statement in just a few words. That's a heck of an object lesson!

I guess you're all confirming what I suspected about guilt - that as a motivator, it doesn't really cut it - but I guess I was wondering what part, if any, it played. I was also wondering what it is that actually ends the affair. Mrs. Wondering, it's not that I don't want to hear that an affair ending is down to reality, exposure, Plan B, and time: in my heart of hearts I KNOW this is the case and there can be no easy fixes. I was more wondering whether guilt fit into the contexts you listed at all.

As for my WH, I am certain that it is not real guilt he feels. He is so divorced from true feeling that this would be impossible. But he is paying it GREAT lip service, and for anyone who is foolish to listen, or to believe he's still the old person and not this new alien, he will sound sincere. But not to anyone with their eyes open. Even my nephew, who is VERY close to him and the only person to stay in touch with him on my side of the fam, has noticed the insincerity of this supposed "guilt". WH's words are great, and on public show. But his actions... they're something else altogether. And he has made sure that his actions are not witnessed by anyone else. Only I heard him verbally abuse me with language that has not been levelled at me by anyone, ever. And when I reminded him that when he first left he promised he would do nothing to put his eternal relationship with the children at risk, only I saw his shrug and smug smile, and heard his flippant, "Sorry!" followed by his assertion that "My new life is worth it." And of course, most tellingly, his A with the OW continues, as does his neglect of his children and attention to OW's D11 in its place.

1. Realization that I was ready to walk right then and there ... no joke.

2. No. he was still seeing her, but it was not as much fun as it was in the beginning. She was asking him to make more and more of himself available to her ... something he was not willing to do. He wanted an affair, she wanted out of her marriage.

3. I discovered evidence. They both lied. I found more. He confessed day 3 after first discovery. Then I said "You're out of here. Go." He begged me for a chance to stay, asked what it would take ... I said "YOU tell OW's husband about the affair with me sitting next to you."

He did. They had been friends since childhood. If he had refused, I would never respect him again.

4. He was initially a BETTER HAPPIER and more sexually stimulating husband (in retrospect) but after not too long, he started drinking to hide from himself, and then he was a miserable bassturd to live with. Moody. Smelly. Vacant no-one's home face. I was very unhappy with him before discovery ... I was not going to waste more of my life with a cheating adulterous lying miserable alcoholic man I had no respect for. That's just not me !!!

RT...

Pleased to meet you to as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

You seem to be seeking individual reasons for the end of affairs...they are not all the same in facts...but the reasons are pretty standard to all...

You said that you are familiar with my story...then you probably know that in my case the OM dropped me like a hot rock...It was the greatest favor that he could have ever have done for me-though I know that's not why he did it...

From my perspective...

I *think* his abrupt ending of the A was due to reality seeping in and *maybe* some guilt on his part(I seriously doubt it)...my H knew...I exposed myself to my mom(he had known her since childhood, and was outraged that I did that)...a lot of our mutual friends knew(OM was my high school/college bf)...little by little the fantasy was chipped away, until it finally shattered...OM thought that I would be leaving my marriage with a lot of money...I expressed that that would probably not be the case, b/c Mr. W is a very sharp attorney...through me my H began attacking OM's insecurities regarding his(the OM's) financial stability, or rather instability, by telling me things that he knew that I would repeat...I became an increasingly less attractive package to OM...OM was single, I became far too much trouble...

Sadly, had OM not have ended it...I don't know how long that I would have continued on my downward spiral into the destruction of my family and myself...

Guilt would not have factored in for me at that time because I was NOT processing any information that was beneficial to anyone...I was most definitely a "cake eating fence rider"...Mr. W would have exposed and that would have worked...but I would have inflicted more pain before that happened...

When I see WSes move out...continuing to plummet towards their own demise and taking all those in their path with them...I always say, "There, but for the grace of God, go I"...

RT, you have my prayers, my respect and my support should you ever need it...God Bless You RiverTam...

Mrs. Wondering

P.S. I have long LOVED your name...it always catches my eye whenever I read here...just wanted you to know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow - thanks for sharing that, Mrs. Wondering. When I'm reading stories like yours I kinda don't breathe for the duration! And thanks also for the support. I really appreciate it. And my name! Ha! A lot of people have wondered what it means. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep, I've been thinking about this as it applies to me for a couple of days:


This is just not a consequence for WH. I have always been second to his work, and his neglect of me is pretty legendary. Particularly over the past couple of years since he opened his own business. I'm thinking that being deprived of me is just no deprivation at all to him; after all, he didn't really HAVE me (or indeed, WANT me) in his life that much. Same with the church; how much of a consequence can excommunication be if he's been neglecting church and his spirituality for a dog's age? So it's not like he's really missing anything there, either.

So... I don't know what "reality" for him is going to entail. We'll see, I guess.