OK, I want some thoughts here on a question I have been having here since coming back to the board (albeit probably just temporary).

If one sees some advice given here that one vehemntly disagress with, should they just remain silent as to not be "negative" or create controversy.

This is NOT implicating anyone here. But more of a general question I have.

For instance.....Say a BS is here and is being needy, desperate, and just plain old being a "doormat"......IS IT WRONG to point it out?, even if it is NOT what they (BS) want to hear.

Say that a BS is desperate for any "hope" with a Wayward Spouse, and the Wayward Spouse considers reconciliation SOLELY based on what their needs (shelter, more time for kids, financial help) are...BUT is still plainly in the affair....IS IT WRONG TO POINT That out even if it is not what the BS wants to hear. I have been emailed by more than a few people (for the record, MIMI is NOT one of them) pleading me to not post my thoughts as it is not helping them marriage build? OK, I could see if it was divorce that I was advising, or advising abuse or somethings....BUT geez...sometimes standing up for oneself, and having some self dignity and self respect is confused with NOT encouraging marriage building... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I think my big problem with a he%% of alot of threads here is the almost stark denial of some BS that they are being "played"........it is so glaringly obvious in alot of cases...yet there are people who come on here and post that the "fog" is thinning out when it clearly isn't.

I have typed out three responses to threads here tonight that I ended up deleting in the end. I guess I have come to a point in this that I no longer really want to post what I think. It is some times not worth the hassle afterward. That is my own problem and noone elses. I take full responsibility for feeling that way.

Alss, I still ask...what is helpful? Is it better to be "nice" than "true". Is it better to be "hopeful" than realistic?

I truly think the FOG of a Betrayed Spouse is actually alot worse than that of a WS.

Just my musings tonight. I am not asking people these questions to get baited into stating what I really think. PLease, don't think that. But I seem to perceive that there is an awful lot of enabling going on here....bt perhaps it is JUST me, and I am the one who needs to get with the "program".

LM

LM - I truly hope you will still keep posting your opinion. It is badly needed here. I am often criticized for being too enabling.

Since you began posting here, most people are grateful for hearing the truth. It may not be what they want to hear, but in the end it is very helpful.

LM -

Why do you find "nice" & "true" have to be mutually exclusive attributes?

tact ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tkt)
n.
Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.

Try it...

I ALWAYS want the truth. Even when it hurts. After all, if I knew the answer to the problem I would not have to post it here. As the saying goes, the truth never hurt anybody. We need people like you, honestly.

LM,

Unapologetically I'll state upfront that I enjoy your style...straight forward, to the point, and WHAT YOU THINK. That having been said, I'll pass along these words that I long ago stuffed under my monitor. They've helped me through my ordeal...

"The highest courage is to dare to be yourself in the face of adversity. Choosing right over wrong, ethic over convenience, and truth over popularity...these are choices that measure your life.

Travel the path of integrity without looking back, for there is never a wrong time to do the right thing."

DOC, sometimes what the patient needs IS strong medicine. Might not always "taste" good, but it is what's needed...

For what it is worth, the value that I have recieved from this site has been more often than not that many of the posters have told me what I needed to hear, rather than what I wanted to hear. That has been invaluable in our recovery as you have nailed it that the BS fog is worst, at at least as bad as the WS fog. Sometimes, I needed to be slapped around a little to get back on track.

On the other hand, most posters have used tact in posts to me and have been able to determine themselves when I may not have been prepared to hear what I needed to hear. That use of tact allowed them to guide me towards the right answer instead of knocking me into it.

I am thankful for all MB posters, including yourself that have provided their perspective into my personal sitch. I don't always agree, but I always listen and digest. That is how this site has been instrumental in my recovery.

NT

I am one that ENCOURAGES SELF-DIGNITY AND SELF-RESPECT. I think these are ESSENTIAL for MBing...

Some times I get the sense that you confuse your "OPINIONS" with "FACTS"...



Isn't this YOUR OPINION about these situations? How can YOU KNOW FOR SURE?



Are you knowledgeable of the medical literature that states this..better to be hopeful than realistic? This certainly is recommended by many of those who treat CLINICAL DEPRESSION...



Oooh..I can't buy this one, Lemonman..My FWH certainly DID PLAY ME..MANY, MANY TIMES (in agreement with the view that WSes can play BSes with their deceitfulness)...but he WAS INSANE...I WAS NOT...



I get concerned about the use of this word ENABLING...ENABLING OF WHAT???

I am not bothered, frustated or angry or whatever with you, Lemonman...

I am calmly discussing these issues with you...REALLY...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LM

My 2 cents is that every one has a different personality, therefore a slightly different perspective. I believe that is why a medium such as this works, because of the information (advice) given is shaded to the core beliefs of each poster. This community will only continue to work as long as there are enough different perspectives out there filtering the advice. No one on here will be able to help everyone...I dont think they are meant to...yet everyone is going to be able to help someone, because somewhere, at sometime, there will be someone that no one else on here can reach, only you, because that person can only relate to you...

Just my opinion


Bill

If someone is being a doormat, point that out. My read on Plan A is that being abused is part of the package at times. If we only do Plan A when WS plays by our rules, MB wouldn't exist. If you can clearly delineate and demonstrate the difference between Plan A and doormat, great. If not, be careful with the use of the word. Yes you called me a doormat and yes it put me into a tailspin and yes I wish I had never ever seen your post. I have blocked all your posts except for this and will return to blocking as soon as I am finished because of the damage it did.

There have been so many posters here that have helped me so much in kinder, gentler ways. I love them all and can never thank them enough for having gotten me this far. If I was being a doormat, they have gently corrected that. You post like it is your way or the highway. Depending on where someone is in the process, that might be helpful. For the newly arrived - at least in my case - it was hurtful. So now I am gone blocking again but I have a strong enough opinion that I felt I wanted to share it. Yes I think tact can be helpful - especially for those recently discovering the betrayal.

Lem,

I remember one particular thread where I agreed with you in part but took deference to your tone (jdnsd I think). I think I attacked you merely on behalf of the poster, only because I knew you would be OK with it. I restated your point but did it addressing you and not the poster. I did take issue with your not having saved your marriage and not disclosing that and thought it was me that had kind of ticked you off. I hope it was not...I respect your involvement.

Sometimes the fights and arguments we all carry out on the various threads here are important to the posters understanding. Everyone here has there own experience, perspective and style and they ESPECIALLY intertwine MOST EFFECTIVELY when backed up with emotion. The fights give the original poster a lot of insight into their initial question without have to participate in the debate itself (usually).

I, for one, think its great when a more "enabling" poster shows up on the side of the poster right after a 2 x 4 has been delivered. Everyone needs someone on their side but the "enabler" can't take the 2 x 4 back. The message was delivered and the poster may not be a the right place in the process to get it...but seeds HAVE been planted. Albeit for the friendly poster they may not have listened at all or they may have taken off if somebody had not seemingly been "on their side". So everyone here is important to the process and we are all on the same team.

Unfortunately, part of the process is moving on for many an old-timer around here. I know a time will come for me too. To many I am an old-timer and I'm only 38 and just got on MB last June. To others I'm still a newbie. But I feel more distance already from the pain of a year ago. I don't as easily relate to the newcomers and sometimes I find myself just trashing a post after a few sentences as well.

In conclusion, I don't think the board changes that much really, we do. Lemonman...you are not the same poster I saw here last summer, you've softened mightly yourself as you've found contentment in your journey.

Just my opinion...love you all,

Mr. Wondering

Well, I like to read what you have to say. And I don't personally think it is anti-marriage building to post the harsh reality.

And truly--I tend to think of what i have gained from this site as more intexas-building than marriage building. My marriage is gonna be over probably in the next two weeks--but I am gonna be just fine. And I owe a lot of my confidence to my experience here.

p.s. You posted on my thread tonight. I hope I wasn't one of the you held back on--I am obviously not offended easily if I can put up with WH's antics and still be civil.

Sourmale,

I personally would rather be told the truth than to have it whitewashed over. Yup sometimes it hurts but most of the time after careful thinking and re-reading things I see what someone was trying to say to me.

I have always repsected your post to me which have not been many but they always made me stop and think and see the way it really is.

I guess it depends on each person and how they react as to how much truth or bluntness they can take. I personally can take it, yup sometimes I may get angry about it but once I stop and think I see it coming from people who do care.

Hurting

Ah Lem...

I was just discussing this very thing about you the other night with a friend from here...We both agree that we like your style...that we may not always agree with you...and we aren't afraid to say so when we don't...but you have garnered our respect...EVEN when you don't get it that you don't get it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here is what I really think that you should do...my opinion...take it or leave it...I feel this way about ALL posters here...I think that the person that you post to ought to know the perspective from which you post...be that BS, WS...Divorced...Recovered...a timeline of sorts...Our views are all colored based on our own life experiences-our perspective...so a brief explanation in your signature line would really help to clarify your position...especially to the "newbies"...

So Chin up...We likes ya round here Doc Sour... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W


P.S. I posted that same James Blunt song at BBQ...it, for me, serves as a reminder of what I almost threw away...and how grateful that I am for Mr. W and his grace...see? perspective...different from yours...but yet the same song...hmmm...

You can try disagreeing in a non-vehement way. For instance, you can preface your remarks with a statement like, "I have a different take on this. I think _____"


One can "point out" something when there is an agreed standard of measurement. For instance, you can "point out" that the person reading an X-Ray has reversed it and the anomaly that looks like it is on the left is really on the right. You can "point out" that someone's fly is open. But you can't "point out" that someone is being needy and desperate because there's no agreed on measurement of what is "needy and desperate". You can certainly give your opinion that if you were someone's WS, you would see the BS's behavior as needy and desperate and that it would drive you away.


If the BS were to say that the WS considers reconciliation solely based on what their needs are, others here would note (and rightly so), that this is a disrepectful judgement-that the BS can't read the WS's mind. If the BS who knows the WS can't read his (her) mind, then neither can you. What you can do is suggest that the BS take time to explore why the WS wants to come back and what the WS is willing to do in order to be taken back.

Lem,

I find it better to be honest than kind. Tis right. Sometimes I want to tell that a snowball has a better chance in hades than a reconcilaition, but would rather nudge them in the direction of self preservation...

If I met a man here in ATL with your cajones, candor, and daring, and intellect I'd fall madly in love with him...imho.

BINGO!!!

Not to worry LM. I have seen these problems on here for YEARS. The problem is with the "so called" veterans. Many times the advice the "veterans" give is WRONG and PROLONGS the whole process. They are unapproachable about anything but the way THEY think things should be said and done. They don't take too kindly with people like me who DARE to tell them to get off their high self righteous course and open their eyes to see that many of these people on here NEED people like you and like me who see things as we do.


You are correct in that there is far more BS's in the fog than WS. I have been watching this site for years and there could have been FAR MORE realtionships saved with a much stronger approach and a much shorter time of "plan A".

I still get fascinated when I see that Plan A almost NEVER works to get the WS back. ALMOST NEVER. And yet I see again and again that to have a good plan B you have to have a good plan A????? I sometimes want to say to these "so called " veterans... Does that mean if you begged and pleaded and cried just before plan A, that the begging and pleading and crying was what made plan B successful?


I agree with you that there is a lot of enabling going on here. Enabling DOES NOT WORK. We NEED people on here who are not afraid to tell others that a STRONG, CONFIDENT aproach to infidelity is just as effective and as a matter of fact many times MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE than this passive Plan A (then wait till your love runs out) then Plan B approach.

Sometimes the best way to end the affair is with a strong confident stance that communicates this: "I will not share my lover attitude. Strong, confident, and releasing all pressure to stay with you. THAT is why Plan B works and Plan A seldom does. Plan B RELEASES pressure off of the WS and suddenly instead of wondering how they were going to get rid of you, they now wonder if THEY HAVE LOST YOU.
That is what it really boils down to. They almost NEVER come back until you let them feel YOU HAVE LET GO and that you will be fine without them. That is what gets them to re-think their position. In the meantime as you show them you WILL NOT SHARE, you are not mean, not vindictive, don't call them names etc. etc . You WANT them wondering what YOU are thinking.

So LM, I say just keepmvn4wrd with your advice and thoughts.
You are always going to have others like some of the "so called" veterans that can't let any post go by without their input and great superior knowledge of marriage builders and anything to do with marriage and the like.

What I recommend is that you pick your spots. Learn to know which type of thread or person or subject that fits your ideas. I usually just bow out of the conversation when someone asks me for advice and one of the "so called" experts almost always have to chime in and try to override anything that they disagree with. Just remember that. Too much advice can paralyze and confuse a person seeking advice and then they get hooked into coming on here for EVERY MOVE THEY MAKE, which puts them in a habit of child, parent with the "so called" experts, which then makes the "so called" experts feel good that they are so wanted. Of course they fail to see that sometimes we need to lead them for a short time and then start to allow them to make their own decisions and grow up and be big boys and girls.

Do YOUR thing. Learn WHEN to do your thing. Learn when TO NOT do your thing. Learn to LET OTHERS do their thing sometimes, as you sit and observe so that you don't mix up the BS more than they already are. You won't see much of that from the "so caLled" experts. As a matter of fact it makes them mad that others have a much different opinion that actually works to save the marriage. Not only that, but many times much much quicker. They don't want to hear that. To them it isn't saving a marriage UNLESS you did it their way or what they say is the marriage builders way. They aren't into saving marriages as they are saving them THEIR way.

Just keep doing your thing. What you see is exactly what some of us others see also. Learn when and learn when to NOT say your mind. Sometimes silence is key, sometimes speak your piece. The "so called" experts don't use silence as part of their logic. Sometimes it is better what we DID NOT say. Get it?

FLIRT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

It's the fruit attraction, admit it.

(Sorry--feeling a little silly here--I need to get some sleep sometime soon.)

Dr. Lemon... You know that I hang on your every word.... I value your wisdom and the manner in which you use it..

I so like what Weaver posted the other day ~~~ He who values the R the least, controls it...words I think you believe in too.

Please continue to post here ~~~ and

as you always have !!!


Sincerely, Carnation

Hello LM,

Interesting question especially the part about whether to reply or not. I like the direct approach to things, and I like calling a spade a shovel and I have no problem with the 2x4. I think your approach is very needed around here.

The real question of when to respond is very interesting. I have posted some fairly harsh posts from time to time and after one or two interactions it seems clear to me whether I should continue to post to someone or not. Interestingly as you have pointed out, it is often the BS who simply does NOT want to hear what needs to be said. The WS may be defensive, but if they came here you can bet they are listening, paying attention and at least will argue with you if they don't agree. Often the BS simply thinks your/I are/am being mean.

My take go ahead and post perhaps more than once to someone and if nothing you are saying is at least causing an arguement, then cease to post. It will be your evaluation, just as in triage (sp?) you cannot save them all. My thinking that honest, open discussion based on the idea that marriage can be saved and this site among others offers tools for the person to do this, is what is needed. And personal thoughts are part and parcel of the message.

My biggest issue is one of hope. This site offers tremendous hope, and frankly it is hard to stomp on someones hope even if the data seems clear to me that the situation will not work. After all HOPE is expection based on little or no data isn't it? Yet, events do occur that one can not for see. When to be brutally realistic, and when to let hope flourish? It is a hard call and it varies with ones personal situation and the situation of the person asking for help.

As you can tell, I have no definitive answer for you, but I do hope you continue to contribute here. It is a powerful contribution you make.

God Bless,

JL

After thinking about this for a bit, and in keeping with the MB principals, I believe that this also means ~~

He who ACTS like they value the R the least, controls it.

Which may be more in line with Plan A and Plan B...


Carnation