Since you said honest opinions wanted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ....

Ok, IMO there is a big difference between respectfully guiding someone based on the previous evidence, and giving them an opinion which may or may not be a DJ. ie

fact - The WS is in contact with OP and the BS suspects but is not confronting them about this.

opinion - The WS is a selfish dork and the BS is a doormat.

fact - Exposure greatly speeds up the process of As ending.

opinion - You're crazy/weak/stubborn/blind not to expose!

etc. Also, I agree with JL that a poster really does need to be ready to 'hear' the advice. There are some people who are just not ready. If posting to them is going to be a waste of your breath, better save it for those who are ready.

When replyuing to a BS I think that you would do well to not DJ. Even if you feel the BS is being played, it helps to adhere to not assuming anything about them and definitely not allowing that tone to come out in your reply. Afterall, you are wanting to help, right? SO it seems better to point things out in a manner that will help your thoughts be heard rather than ignored.

Also, a big part of DJing is assuming certain things about a person. For example, as you noted, the BS being in denial that the WS is still int he A. Each of us are individual and our experience and knowledge varies from one to the other. While you may feel that a person needs to hear what you are saying, they have to make up their own mind. So it seems better to find a way to deliever messages in a way that aids the person to hear you but not feel that you are pressing your point over on them.

SO maybe troubleshoot on several differnt ways that you can deliver the message that might be less offensive. It may help what you are saying to be considered. Because for one you do not want to insult or disrespect a person that is already hurting and again you want to help not hurt.

Just my thoughts. Wish you well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW...i am a betrayed spuose who chose not to return to my marriage...i wish i would have known about this website during my darkest days, but i didnt. sometimes we need to hear a good dose of reality and not be "thin skined" when it comes to others opinions. everyone has different views and are in different stages of life, so when someone poses a general question for ALL to see, they should be ready for input...good or bad...

sometimes a good "KITA" is what it takes to get someone off there knees and to stop feeling sorry for themselves! (Kick In The [censored])

the saddest people i have ever known are the one who let other people/spouses dictate their self worth...

i love this cliche i read onetime, "we humans will stand next to a barrel full of beautiful ripe apples and never notice them, we would rather cry over the rotten one we are holding"

some marriages are worth saving....some spouses are not, because life goes on wheter we want it to or not!..

sturgis05

TJ - I have to know - what do you ride? I ride a Deuce myself.

a group of 11 rode from so-cal to sturgis (5000 mi round trip) we spent 3 weeks on road...it was awesome!! rocky mtns, blackhills, yellowstone, custer park etc...(great divorce recovery ride!)

right now i have a pretty tricked out roadstar...had to sell my two harley's during divorce....but thats ok cuz now i have my greasy eye on an 06 STREET GLIDE....charcoal gray BTW!!

i used to have 91 electra glide and 03 fat boy (pre-divorce)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Just cuz people say they wanna hear the truth, doesn't mean they wanna hear the truth, ya know?!?!?

So when some come here and want their ears tickled.....they soon find out, we don't do that here. We might try to help cushion it but soft peddling the truth, never helped anyone.

U, Dr. Lemonman give the sweet and sour of it all. Not bad that combo. Some of us here prefer that to a flowerly coverup.

Takes time to really want the truth. Takes longer to digest it. In the end, it all ends up at the same place.

Direct and to the point saves on the duration of the pain.

IMHO, I like your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

The unfortunate reality of an internet forum such as this is that you will often only hear from those that disagree with your style, Lemon.

Those who agree with you are much less likely to post, why would they if you already stated an opinion they agree with? So what you see instead is those who are offended or disagree.

If we were all in a room together, you'd notice alot of people nodding when you stated your opinion, Lemon. They wouldn't stand up and express it, but they are there.

So don't take the few who dislike your style too personally, there are those around that agree the the brutal honest truth approach. Myself included.

Ditto what Peach said....('cept I'm in TX)

BB

“Radical honesty”... isn’t that one of the requirements of a good marriage? Why should things be much different in relations between people?

A friend of mine had the sorry job of telling his niece that her single-parent mom was dying of cancer and had only a few hours left. The mother had been battling the disease for nearly 8 months – all the time denying the inevitable and convinced she would recover. The family, doctors, deacon and nursing staff had all talked to the 12 year old niece and were confident she “understood” the gravity of the situation. When my friend told her that her mother was dying the girl completely broke down.

It turned out that up to that point phrases like “your mother will take the long journey waiting all of us”, and “your mother will soon be in a better place free from disease” had been used. The “d” word completely avoided. The young niece had always interpreted the phrases in a way that was least painful for her. So while the Deacon would say “long journey” as death the girl would see it as.... a long journey. Since this the hospital has changed policy. Early on words like “fatal”, “terminal” and “death” are used.

I think we are prone to reading what we want or even only what we want out of replies posted on MB. We focus on replies that are “convenient” to our situations and are in line with some hope or view we might already have. In many cases I have seen here I feel the original poster is either not reading the replies, or only reading those that fuel his paranoia. I think in those cases a direct approach like the one you use is not only justifiable but also beneficial to the recovery.

Lemonman,

While there are many similarities here amongst both BS and WS, we are all individuals with our own situations. I have tended to agree with your diagnosis in most cases here. Your story is one of strength and conviction. You knew what you could and would put up with from your WW. I am assuming that she also knew, pushed the envelope with continued contact and you cut her loose.

That description might sound trite and I am sure that doing it was very difficult. I have seen many BS’s here be cut deeper and deeper by their stubbornly wayward WS all the while I am wondering “OK just where is their boundary and when will they finally be pushed too far.”

FWIW, I am one of those folks who was never sure that I could recover from infidelity and remain in my marriage. I did, but it has been a struggle that has only been possible because my FWH is truly remorseful and has maintained NC from the very beginning. For me, my boundary was that it had to be completely over and done or I was gone.

For some of the folks here, there is a need to be beaten repeatedly for them to finally get it and that, although unfortunate, is just the way it is for them. This is not a criticism, just an honest opinion as to what I have seen here.


If your sometimes harsh posts cause even one BS to finally garner the strength to take control of their situation rather than simply be a passenger, then your value here is confirmed.

Who

bigger,

Do you think Dr. H recommends radical honesty wrapped around disrespectful judgements? There is a difference between "lose weight fatso" and "I'm losing my love for you because I no longer find you attractive."

Lem,

The truth, as painful as it is sometimes should always be welcomed. MB says that truth, while painful when delivered, helps the people involved and the pain is usually short lived as opposed to not knowing and being in constant limbo. (paraphrased very loosely).

I do always look forward to you posts and you have provided me with valuable insight that has helped me in my journey. Your thoughts and opinions may not always be popular or spot on, but they do cause one to think and wonder about their sitch, and are therefore are extremely valuable here.

Please do not let a few posters who only see your posts through their personal filter discourage you. I for one will continue looking for your posts and if you see fit to post to my thread I will look forward to receiving your thoughts and advice and thinking about how they would help my sitch.

Keep posting Doc! If they don't like it they don't have to read it. It is still a free country. We all still have the freedom to read or not what is posted as well as institute or not what we read here.

He who ACTS like they value the R the least, controls it.

I couldn't disagree with this line of thinking ..

If this was true then there would be no doubt that WS control relationships.....
for surely no one in action devalues a relationship MORE than a WS...

I also question how this serves the bigger picture of a healthy marriage...

healthy marraiges are not based on control....

BS in fact show great value in relationships when in Plan a as the quietly and consistantly live in a path of light and hope...

modeling truthfullnes
the importance of safety for children
boundaries....

these are actions of showing great value in a relationship..

and the state of marriage...

I guess in fact I don't understand this sentiment at all..

ARK

True that! I've discarded the last three posts I've composed here for EXACTLY the same reason.

I don't like to argue. Frankly, I just don't have the TIME for arguing....I've got so many things to do in a day and only so many hours to do them in.

But I read here fairly often, and nine times out of ten I keep my comment to myself. Usually that's because I'm thinking that a BS has Plan A'd for way too long and they need to introduce some REALITY into the affair. I don't post my opinion though, because I don't want to deal with the "hassle" it'll cause. It's like strolling through a mine-field if you're caught at odds with other opinions.

I see the benefit of MB for folks who want to save their marriage at all costs. And although I'm not a "save-at-all-costs" person, I can usually get on board for an OP who is. I would never come to a forum as specific to a particular subject as MB is, and then disregard the spirit of the board. And I'm not sure why any disagreement of opinion is so often perceived that way.

But honestly, the last three posts that I've discarded before submission had to do with BS's who are enabling the 'WS fantasy' to perpetuate. IMHO, I think this is a gap that needs filling here at the forum level.

A WS wants to believe that s/he can leave the marriage and still have a place in the family unit. Everyone is going to eventually 'get over it' regarding his/her little indiscretion, and it's going to be a rosy-posy world where everyone is "friends".

I think that allowing that fantasy to survive allows the affair to thrive. In my own situation, if I had cooperated in ANY way with that fantasy....I'd be divorced right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I think there's room in Plan A to 'poke more holes in the fantasy bubble', but it seems to me that alot of the time folks shrink from doing it. "Exposure" isn't the only tool in the arsenal afterall. I love Ark's 180's advice and Orchid's Reverse Babble. I think a WS ought to be kept off-balance, and wondering what the BS will do next. It makes the BS intriguing, mysterious....and therefore ATTRACTIVE.

But when Plan A fails...it's time to 'peek through the window of divorce' with Plan B. It's time to burst the "let's be friends" bubble and force the WS to take one last look at the absolute reality of his/her situation before it's too late.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I agree with you Lemonman. It seems a shame to me that anyone should be hesitant to speak up and share their thoughts. And certainly, NO ONE should be getting emails telling them to 'clam up'. No matter how politely it's said, it's still overstepping the bounds.

Ark,

We were not discussing healthy relationships when I stated this, we were talking about relationships which were in trouble and ending, where the "choice" to love was not made...everything at this stage is based on feelings.

And the truth is that when a relationship is in this precarious place it is ALL about feelings, not choices...and it is basic human nature to want what we cannot have or feel we are losing (at this stage an ending) relationship.

When you get back to a place of a good solid marriage based on the good of the marriage and the shared interest of the two involved...of course it doesn't apply, or shouldn't apply.

Is this not the premise of Plan B, and the beginning of empowerment? Because the WS does not normally come back until they feel the BS is moving on. And the flip side is that often the BS does not "open" their eyes until an affair is in their face.

So the control would be in the hands of the spouse who is ready to walk away.

I have been called an 'enabler' here...

Being a sensitive care-taker at heart perhaps makes me one.

I see someone in pain and want to reach out to them. It doesn't matter if they are a BS or WS... or what stage of recovery (or non-recovery) they are in... maybe because I've been in both sets of shoes I have an (unfortunate) wide circle of experience.

2x4's are very helpful to some. If a smack upside someone's head is what they need I generally step back and allow others to administer it because it isn't who I am. The few times I've tried it were huge failures for the receiver and for myself. You've either 'got it' (the ability to say the harsh truth in a respectful manner) or you don't. I don't. So I accept that my personality allows me to be a shoulder.

I think that MB, like the real world, benefits from all experience... when I share, it's usually to say what I did wrong and to encourage the poster not to do what I did. Not always a comfortable place to be, especially for a sensitive person like me.

Thank goodness for different personalities and experiences... it helps to make a rounded community. And just as LM shouldn't have to apologize for who he is... I shouldn't have to either. However, around here, it seems that too many have to do just that. Ad naseum.

A few thoughts..

Unfortunately I feel the need to preface my posts to you, Lemonman, with a report that I am not UPSET. IMO, you seem to perceive me as being upset..when I do not perceive myself that way. I am INTENSE person even on my good days..even in real life..ANYWAYS...

My first point is: I HAVE NOT HAD AN ISSUE WITH YOUR HONESTY. I believe in honesty, transparency and openness. I also agree with your belief in SELF-RESPECT. My issue has been what I PERCEIVED as name-calling directed towards. You remember the DELUSIONAL comment..we don't need to go there anymore....

Second point: I do not want you to leave this forum. That would be your choice. However, I think all of us has a SPECIAL PURPOSE here.


This is the main issue that I want to address this morning. BSes are definitely TRAUMA VICTIMS. I continue to see myself that way although I am far along in my recovery. Listen to the new posters as they speak of their pain and devastation. I just can't buy the point of view that it is ENABLING to offer soothing and comfort to a person in extreme emotional pain. Yes there comes a point where it's time to stop whining. However, we have our individual differences based on our life histories and we can't be on the same time tables. So, even now, as you yourself have noted, Lemonman, I AM SENSITIVE and I FEEL PAINED especially when there are triggers and I have a number of them.

I think we need to be sensistive to the fact that BSes have suffered a MAJOR TRAUMA. Steve Harley specifically told me that he believes that the TRAUMA of INFIDELITY IS WORSE THAN THE EXPERIENCE OF INCEST. It is an ULTIMATE, LIFE-ALTERING BETRAYAL that none of us will ever truly GET OVER, I think. I do not consider sensitivity regarding this issue to be ENABLING.

If you meet a RAPE VICTIM, I wouldn't consider it helpful to say.."GET OVER IT..STOP CRYING ABOUT THIS or whatever"...

For me, it's HONEST and OPEN for me to express my disagreement with you, Lemonman. That does not mean that I don't want you on the forum or don't want you to express your opinions here.

Actually, YOU'VE HELP ME WITH MY FLIGHT OR FIGHT TENDENCY. I hang on there with you and stand my ground without fleeing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

weaver...
here's my concern...our neuron transmitters are very susceptable to mantra like thought processes...

it is infact he nature of the beast of partly how our brains work..

it can in my opinion be dangerous to remove the loving and cherishing aspects of a marital relationship replacing it with the thought of "control" issues....

it is difficult to stop that type thought process...
it is very very important for people to detach from bad actions
but at the same time it is very very important to maintain and hold visions of the good things...


I just really really get anxious about the words control, power, and value....

even in taking or giving control in some ways denies each ones own sovereignty....we are what we are...NOT based on controling others ....
we only control ourselves....

look at how many people use sex in their relationships as a control issue...

the relinquishing and witholding of it...etc...
makes me very very uncomfortable...

valueing a marriage is a consistant factor in my opinion not to be used as a tool or weapon..which is infact exactly what a WS does....

giving and removing value based on whether they are 'with' the spouse or the OP...

placing value on a marriage should be consistant factor of BS....
which does not mean or equate exposure to garbage or unecessary pain...

I'm just saying I think it is possible to have very clear and strong boundaries in a marriage without it becoming a control factol or the additions or removal of value of the state of marriage....

but then again I could just be so sleep deprived that I don't get it...

ARK

I am also one who likes my truth in a straightforward manner. Although I have been registered at MB for a long time, the whole Plan A thing didn't jive with me during my h's affair.
I think that in a lot of cases, the whole Plan A thing is nothing more than giving permission to the WS to continue what they are doing. And teaching a BS to hold in their feelings, needs and wants in the relationship. It removes boundries that may have been in place in favor of "showing your spouse that you are willing to do anything to keep the marriage and change yourself to your WS liking better."
My Plan A went something like this, if you don't want to be here, then leave......NOW. You can not have both, and you will not be allowed to continue to disrespect me, our children and our home. The decision is yours, and I will not wait long for your answer.
My husband's affair was in 1997-98, long ago now, but at the time, he said that he found new respect for me because I didn't allow him to walk all over me, trying to hang on to him, or manipulate him into staying. He had a choice, just as he did to have the affair in the first place, and I allowed him to keep making choices, I just defined what I was willing to tolerate and what I was not.
I think LM ( whom I admire greatly) tells it like it is, and I wish that more of the elders of the board would do so.
I can think of many instances where Plan A has gone on so long, the BS is just as "foggy" as the WS in allowing the affair, the deceit, and the turmoil to continue far too long.
As Dr. Phil says, you teach someone how to treat you.....
And just for the record, we are happily recovered, married now for 15 years, and life is good.
So in my opinion LM, keep telling your truth, there are those who do listen, and there are those who need to hear it.
I am not knocking some of MB principles, but I do believe that the time for a PLAN A is after firm boundries are set, and reconciliation is a goal of both parties, rather than one.

Ark,

I edited my post, so it might make more sense to you now...I don't know.

When a WS is walking away and the BS is hanging on for dear life...the WS is in control though, unfortunately.

Wish I had a different way of saying it.