I read a post recently where you made a distinction between
"going out on a date with WS or going out on a date with H". I think that is how you put it. Sometimes WS do seem to act like they are 2 different personalities. How does WS know if they are dealing with him/her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> or him/her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />? Sometimes it is obvious, but when WS maybe trying to fool the BS it is a little more difficult to distinguish. All welcome to chime in. I asked you Orchid because it was your post that mentioned it. Thanks.

I don't remember saying to date the WS but as to how to know when it is the WS b4 u vs your spouse.....here are a few clues:

1. Watch the eyes. If there is no direct contact a lie c/b in the hatching. U can cut 'em off at the knees by using some types of reverse babble.

2. Don't let the WS be comfortable. The more comfortable they are, the worse they get.

3. Give the guilt back to the WS.

4. Give your spouse what you know he likes. Ask first which character is he. If he displays Ws tendencies....hold back the goodies. Save it for your and give NOTHING to the Ws.

5. When the WS babbles hurting things....let him know he isn't unique. Let him know he is following the script quite well and will have the same consequences as the other crazed WS'. If he asks what is that, don't tell him, just say....yep that's what it looks like. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid thanks for your reply. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still have a question though about WS's. Since recent exposure and even prior to, but definitely more after exposure, my H talks very defensively when I ask him about certain things pertaining to OW. I usually only ask a few questions, but he just seems like he tenses up and become defensive. Is this WS or just my H uncomfortable?

IMHO, a defensive person is a WS. Now how to deal with such an attitude? Easier than many think.

My rule of thumb:

Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS.

Even now we are in recovery....I keep plan B in my back pocket. Have I had to use it since the end of the A? Yes. The A ended August 2003. Have I used it as recently as last year? Yes but not for a related purposes. You see the WS tendancies reach more than the A. It is a selfish virus entrenched in the soul of the WS itself.

The spouse who is suppose to love and care for his W and family would NEVER want ANYONE (including himself) to bring any hurt or pain to his family. NEVER!!! Yet the WS thrives on it, plans to hurt, desires to inflict pain.

See the difference? Therein lies the struggle of the WS and spouse inhabiting the single mind, heart and soul. It is a fight from within.

What can you do? Go take a look at my 'try say' thread and see if any of those reverse babble lines can help. They are designed NOT to take the guilt or stress from a WS or WS like attitude.

Hope this helps.

L.

Orchid, thanks it does help. I was wondering what to do with WS when he rears his ugly head at times. TO be honest, it isn't only at times. My H is still very selfish and acts in this person. But I've tolerated it for a good while because I didn't know how to get across what I meant and didn't want to LB or AO. Also I've gotta put an end to some areas where I too have been acting very selfish.

I'm going to try say to check it out, reverse babbling. I read it yesterday but it is still difficult to reverse babble. However you spelled out that Reverse babbling is actually placing the responsibility back where it belongs when WS's try to inflict guilt.

I would like to ask one more thing. I know that you and H are recovering. Is it bad to withhold SF?

I had to take testing the other day for the little diseases that S partners pass one from the other. I'm waiting for results but my H is suppose to do the same. I've decided not to have SF with him for now and if we resume with protection for probably 4-6 months after this testing. I understand that some diseases may not be detected until such a time.

I know that some would say that I'm Djing. But my H has exposed me once in prev. A and once I contracted one of these little thingys from him. I would like for him to understand where I'm coming from without force, coersion or manipulation but I'm not doing anything with him again until there is some type of agreement and he doesn't want to do MC. Will not having SF prevent reconciliation? How do I get my point accross to him? And thaks for sharing.

Orchid: Reverse babble helps the BS be stable when the road gets rocky or that dern roller coasters starts picking up steam. I'm glad you go the pix. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Now each has their own reasons for w/h SF. Your's were pertinent. Think about it....is it ever safe to have SF with a WS? NOPE! Yet many a BS does in an attempt to keep their M. In most cases, it is a futile attempt but one most BS feel they must do. It is later they realize, it didn't make a difference. In fact, the less one gives the WS, the more the WS tends to want. Hm..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So back to your question: Is it bad to withhold SF?

IMHO, No. Just let him know you've got your reasons and let him ask why....then when you have his attention....give just a little info....enough to make him wonder more...something like:

WS: Do you want to...you know?

BS: No. Not tonight.

WS: Why?

BS: .....hm....'cuz I don't feel.....safe.

WS: U think I am going to hurt you? You know I won't.

BS: U already did.

WS: Well that doesn't count.

BS: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> (that one doesn't deserve an answer).

WS: Well it does but I'm not doing it now.

BS: Not this minute but what about tomorrow?

Ws: Well maybe not tomorrow.......

BS: Hm.... I now have a headache. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid great responses. I've gotta get my reverse babble in gear.

Orchid,

Quote: Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS

Absolutely brilliant summation of action that EVERY BS needs to follow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cymanca, I think it is great also. Many BS don't know that or get it. It makes a clear boundary.

Orchid, thanks a bunch.

Orchid. Hi. I've been reading the stories of several posters who have really inspired me. I wondered if you mind sharing your story with me. If you have the thread for it, would you post it please. Thanks.

It's a long and old story.....On a dark and stormy night, is how it starts. LOL!!!

Just a brief recap on our sitch.....

d/d: Nov 2000
WS: ONS (several times), last A lasted 3 years with OW (PBR - psycho babble rabbit - that name is a whole story in itself).

BS (me) found MB end of Dec 2000, joined end of Jan 2001. I read the concepts and SAA books in 3 nights.

Went to MC, had 1 session with Steve.....studied MB, Trueheart (a Xws MBer) helped me out by writing a letter to the Ws for my then WS.

Many stories and incidents with this OW. She was and still is a nutcase.....OW claimed 3 pregos w/o proof, threatend to have me arrested and fired from my job, accused me of having an affair with my FIL and being a lesbian. Geeze, I can't imagine doing all that and working 70 hours a week. LOL!!!

Bouts of depression, on the fidelity diet, attempted suicide. I did plan A, then plan B. Worked on plan D @ my own pace.

All the while the WS wavered....back and forth. Seemed this OW had her claws in him deep...... I finally got the strength to tell him it's over and to leave. I was finally ready to move on.....to my surprise he wanted to come home but I let him back too early and we went through several false recoveries. The OW pulled her last trumph card when it seemed I wouldn't go away. LOL!! She filed false charges against the WS (after he told her it was over) and he went to court. Asked me to go with him and I did. This is where I got to see the OW in the flesh..... she wasn't much to look at and even in the hall.....I past her by w/o a blink. Really a nothing person.

Since then the WS has transformed to and Xws and now to our H and father. It still takes time. I keep plan B in my back pocket and yes....the trust factor is still in the healing stage.

There is no quick fix. It is all about him being there for us. His family (son & I) have already shown where our loyalty lies....to our family and our God. Not to any WS.

BTW, H is a soft-spoken man who has learned to cuss since he was with the OW (who IMHO cussed like a sailor - ). This is one of the bad habits he is learning to break.

There are still trigger in our livse. I am the primary giver in our family but have learned t/d less to get more.

So that's it in a nutshell.......

Just a brief recap on our sitch.....

d/d: Nov 2000
WS: ONS (several times), last A lasted 3 years with OW (PBR - psycho babble rabbit - that name is a whole story in itself).

BS (me) found MB end of Dec 2000, joined end of Jan 2001. I read the concepts and SAA books in 3 nights.

Went to MC, had 1 session with Steve.....studied MB, Trueheart (a Xws MBer) helped me out by writing a letter to the Ws for my then WS.

Many stories and incidents with this OW. She was and still is a nutcase.....OW claimed 3 pregos w/o proof, threatend to have me arrested and fired from my job, accused me of having an affair with my FIL and being a lesbian. Geeze, I can't imagine doing all that and working 70 hours a week. LOL!!!

Bouts of depression, on the fidelity diet, attempted suicide. I did plan A, then plan B. Worked on plan D @ my own pace.

All the while the WS wavered....back and forth. Seemed this OW had her claws in him deep...... I finally got the strength to tell him it's over and to leave. I was finally ready to move on.....to my surprise he wanted to come home but I let him back too early and we went through several false recoveries. The OW pulled her last trumph card when it seemed I wouldn't go away. LOL!! She filed false charges against the WS (after he told her it was over) and he went to court. Asked me to go with him and I did. This is where I got to see the OW in the flesh..... she wasn't much to look at and even in the hall.....I past her by w/o a blink. Really a nothing person.

Since then the WS has transformed to and Xws and now to our H and father. It still takes time. I keep plan B in my back pocket and yes....the trust factor is still in the healing stage.

There is no quick fix. It is all about him being there for us. His family (son & I) have already shown where our loyalty lies....to our family and our God. Not to any WS.

BTW, H is a soft-spoken man who has learned to cuss since he was with the OW (who IMHO cussed like a sailor - ). This is one of the bad habits he is learning to break.

There are still trigger in our livse. I am the primary giver in our family but have learned t/d less to get more.

So that's it in a nutshell.......
Orchid's story.....the short version?

My stories


another true life experience..... can u believe it?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Letter from OW! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So r u inspired or just cracking up?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid, you've had a lot of courage to stay in the M. You've gone through a lot.

And yes, I do find your story inspiring. That you continued to work your Plan A is amazing considering OW's many hurdles thrown in fron of you. And that you've found ways to counter Fws with reverse babble and just sticking with it.

Thanks for sharing.

My H has had 2 EA, suppoosedly 1 PA. But I don't know for sure and don't have a way to confirm.

He is an amotional freeloader and confides easily in OW taking care of him telling them our personal business and his problems with me. This is what it seems to me. The first woman he had an A with was wacky, fiesty, argumentative. Maybe similar to your H's OW. She followed me home and attempted to fight me once. When I told her H what she was doing and that I would pursure her legally she was livid. Came to our home in the middle of the night to fight again. My H had the nerve to side with her. Asked why did I try to hurt her M. We had many conversations where I found out that my H had been lying to her and me.

It is comical that we argued back and forth, but I found out the truth from her on many of these confrontational arguments. WH refused to tell the truth on some things, many things.

After this exposure with this current OW, he refused to talk about it. Was angry with me that I told his superiors. I am concenred that I'm dealing with him still being 1. needy to tell OW about our problems. This may be a guise for him to get their attention and have As with them.
2. not unwilling to be transparent.
3. That he doesn't express concern about the harm it causes me, possible STDs, maybe impregnating another woman and the emotional harm it does.
However he has easily expressed his concern for OW.

I keep coming back to transparency b/c I think that this is something that I really shouldn't compromise with him, but I've been very disresepctful in the past (even recent past, like 1.5 month ago)in telling him that he had better do this and that. I feel now he feels that he owes me nothing.

So I don't want to issue an ultimatim, but I don't want to continue putting myself out there trusting him and he continue to do the same thing. He is acting much more romantic, attentive this go around than before but consideration of me, my body, trust issues, is my concern.

I felt that there was something about your story that I could relate to in your replies it seemed that your persoanlity type was similar to mine. And I'm not the quiet sit down and bare it type. But felt I needed to find a way to establish my boundaries w/out LBing but assertively. To be honest, I feel My H had many demons, so to speak and errors in his views about commitment.

Maybe this is a DJ. but I do believe so. I've been waiting to see the real him b/c he hides so much in his quietness. Anyhow I'm going to look at your story, check it out. thanks again.

Orchid is this reverse babble?


(Said when I asked to look into his gym bag whne he wa going to work early one am)


WS: Why must you go look through my things?

My Old reply used to be:
BS: I don't have time for your foolishness and I want to make sure there is nothing going on. (I know sound very motherly, but flowed freely out of my mouth).


Reverse Babble:

BS: Does is upset you for me to look? I'm trying to make sure that I don't have a reason to.

WS: It makes me feel like you don't trust me.

BS: I guess that is partly right. Looking into your things helps me know that I can (trust him).

Another Reverse babble sitch:

WS: You aren't getting over this A.

Since this is an obviously inconsiderate, thoughtless thought to say I could say:

BS: Please share, How do I get over this second A? and walk away OR I could say: We're even. You aren't getting over your need to hide information from me or you are getting over your need to conceal all of you from me.

What do ya think?

Orchid: Go through your things? Well for starters, you've given me reason to. When r u going to stop that?


Orchid: Good, you're still feeling. At least your not numb yet. Btw, U R right, I don't trust u, not yet anyways. What r u going t/d about regaining my trust?


Orchid: It's not my A to get over. What r u doing to get over it and help me heal?


I think u r headed in the right direction. Just remember your goal. Give the WS back their guilt and lessen your pain.

Eventually removing yourself from that triangle w/b one of your boundaries. Maybe the most important one. Like it was 4 me.

take care,
L.

Thanks a bunch.