Mrs. W,

I wanted to respond to your post on the exposure thread, but what I wanted to say had less to do with exposure than your "evaluation" of me... so I took it outside.



A point you and other posters seem intent on repeating over, and over, and over again -- EVEN THOUGH it is a point I had previously conceeded at least once in the thread. My question was not WHETHER to expose an ongoing affair, but HOW to expose it in order to minimize WS resentment which, IMO, could be a barrier to recovery.

At first, I asked for input from FWS's who had been exposed and who consider their marriages recovered. Who better to give a newbie BS insight into WHAT TYPE OF EXPOSURE helped to turn a WS around? Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I got exactly ONE response from a FWW who was ACTUALLY exposed. Several things were interesting about her post.

If I remember correctly, her H ONLY expopsed to her parents (narrow scope). He did not disclose the full nature of the affair (PA). And her parents responded with loving support for her, but disappointment in her choices and actions. Those were the elements in the ONE case study offered by a recovered FWS who was actually expose. I would think there would be a lot of valuable lessons in that one example. I wish there had been a lot more posters like her.

But what I really find interesting about the way that thread progressed is this: The nearly universal refusal to answer the question I posed in a straightforwar manner. Not a single poster said... in effect... "I would think the way to make that happen is this...."

It reminds me of a thread I started on Christmas Eve. I was all bent out of shape about a recurring source of conflict in my marriage that long pre-dated my affair. My husband's refusal to help others in need be they friends, family or those less fortunate unless there was something in it for him. In my original post, I'll be the first to admit that my tone was downright b!%@#y. I got called on the carpet -- rightfully so. But long after I conceeded the fact that my tone was wrong (like conceeding the fact that exposure breaks up affairs) the posts kept piling up telling me how horrible I was for having the gaul to complain about anything so soon after my affair... how it was just part of his personality... and I'd just have to get over it and so on. NOBODY would answer my question about HOW to go about talking to him about it. This went on for several PAGES of the thread... with me asking the same question over and over and over again... until finally Lexxxy and MortarMan came to my rescue. Lexxxy -- with the observation that people make positive changes to themselves all the time if so motivated. And MM -- with a very detailed and thoughful explanation on how to POJA such a thing.



I'm really unclear how this is personal for me.


That's how it looks to alot of people, Huh? Hmmm. Interesting. Are you assuming that? Or was there a private email request for you to come and put me in my place? Just curious.



Again (and I'm sooooo tired of repeating myself. I really thought I was a clearer communicator thatn this) I'm not offended by exposure that aims to break up the affair AND supports the recovery of the marriage. IMO, friends and family who respond to the information by heaping judgements, shame, and demands on the WS may very well be creating a barrier to later recovery. But that's just my -- unsubstantiated -- opinion. Which is why I didn't directly offer it up on the thread... but rather asked other FWS's who were exposed and and have since recovered to share THEIR experiences.


Yep, mostly newbies. But one of the more elloquent posters "on my bandwagon" has been in recovery for a full year.


If MB principles... or any other priciples... can't stand up to some doubt and questions... and as I stated previously... be defended without getting defensive... how solid are they really? We're not lemmings here. We're fully functioning human beings capable of critical thought. Funny thing is, I wasn't even really questioning the priciple itself... just asking for insight on how the priciple might best be applied to maximize the chances at attaining the long term goal -- a recovered marriage.

Just for the record, I don't hate you or resent you. For this most recent post or any other. Interesting to me that you would even write something like that. On the exposure thread... my posts were met with sarcasm... I was called names... my qestions were called "irrelevant"... and my motives were called into question (I believe I was accused of trying to create confusion). Yet I never responded in kind... just kept asking my question... ultimately to be informed that some mysterious committee had deemed me "Foggy".

Interesting.

My goodness,
Either the Paranoia is Really setting in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Or

Your just feeling Real self Important! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Mrs. W .......but I had to interject that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The rest is for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But watch out,
here's yet Another One not too Keen on exposure,
CLAIMING to have Been attacked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I sure don't envy you getting called out.

smartcookie...

The answer that you are looking for on the exposure thread does NOT exist...there is no way to "pretty up" or "sugar coat" anything about infidelity...the affair or any of it's consequences...ie EXPOSURE

If someone were to suggest that there was some way for the BS to discover the affair in order to minimize the resentment, pain, etc., surely you could see the ridiculousness of that, right?

As Melody would say, you can dress up a hawg and take it to a dance, but it's still gonna be a HAWG!!!

How someone that the A is exposed to chooses to react to the exposure absolutely cannot be controlled...that is up to each individual...that simply, is what it is, like it or not...

Your question was called irrelevant because it IS a red herring...designed, whether you meant it to or not, to distract from the actual subject at hand...AFFAIR EXPOSURE 101...A topic that would indicate "how to" as far as I believe most people would be concerned...I KNOW that your question was how best to do it...damage control of sorts...the AFFAIR caused the DAMAGE, so really think about what you are proposing...is there honestly a "polite", "PC" way to expose an affair? That's like saying there is a polite or PC way to have an affair...

I see you as foggy because you can't see how ANY means necessary should be used to END an affair...without an A ending...RECOVERY is a MOOT issue...You seem to be arguing how to "soften the blow" for the WS...who softened it for the BS? Your argument leads unsure BSes(and aren't they all initially?)to believe that exposure, designed to END an A, would instead impede their recovery...Almost every, if not every, single BS that comes here is afraid of exposure at first...your participation on that thread appears to say that exposure must be treated with "kid gloves" and there is NO WAY to use "kid gloves" in exposure, because exposure happens only as a result of an affair...affairs are ugly, so are all of their consequences...so basically, your "question" ends up leading a newbie BS to the conclusion that they are better off not to expose...the result=continuing affair=no recovery at all??? I'm sorry, that makes ZERO sense to me...which in turn leads me to the conclusion that you must be foggy if you cannot see this...

You are muddying the waters on that thread...You say that you do advocate exposure to end an affair...then EXPLAIN that as many times as necessary to 19 and any lurking "newbies" in your posts there...You say that we are all missing your point...I assume you mean those of us that have been around awhile and are disagreeing with you...OK, but if we don't see where you are coming from, then how do you expect a "newbie" to? That's what *I* think is harmful...

This site is designed to help people by using MB principles...it is not a place to challenge those principles just for sport...it's not a debate club...to treat it that way is dangerous and irresponsible, IMO...You are not currently in need of a real answer to that question after all are you?

smartcookie, I want you as friend, not foe...you are in a recovering marriage...as am I...we are on the same team here...really...posting as guests here we have a responsibility to support the principles outlined by the owners of the site itself, wouldn't you agree?

Best,


Mrs. Wondering

Shoot toprope...I was countin' on you to put on your cape, and use your posting "superpowers" to rescue me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> toprope SAVE ME!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now where's that Biggles guy when I need him? I could use a certain "code" of his right about now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

NT <======*passes the peace pipe around the group hoping to avert two of his dearest MB'ers from colliding head on going seventy miles per hour in opposite directions.*

I am all game for a good debate. Both of you are dear friends to me and I could argue either side of this coin...but, I don't want to jeopardize either of you taking things too personally...we need you both, and we need to be able to share our own perspective even if it sometimes challenges MB principles. It is just like when I talk to a radical liberal about politics....if I honestly listen to their perspective it makes me either modify my position or supports my original position and makes it stronger. At the end of the day...I am still right.

NT

Perhaps a little to far to the right...you should listen more closely to the liberal arguments...we may learn you one of these days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's all good. Really happy to see you around again lately.

Mr. W

Duly Noted, nottoday...No worries...I'm not upset...I think I've made my position regarding the support of the MB program very clear...I will defend it, because it IS the responsible thing to do...

In your friendly political debates there are no casualities(I presume <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL)...Unfortunately, here, there are actual families at risk of losing it all to infidelity if led astray...

I appreciate your concern...


Mrs. Wondering

I would suggest you are pointing your "questions" at the wrong party, Smartcookie. The BS has no control over the "resentments" of the WS; only the WS has that kind of control. The WS is expected to resent almost ANYTHING that is done to bust up the affair. Instead of looking to others to help the WS evade the consequences of bad behavior, [under the guise of "impeding recovery"] you should help all these so-called "resentful" WS' develop some character and maturity by encouraging them to face the consequences of their actions with honor and dignity. There is no honor in blaming others for the consequences of your behavior and the WS should not be encouraged in even more undignified, selfish, immature behavior.

A truly recovered WS does not feel "resentment" for facing the consequences of thier actions, they feel REMORSE. And they should feel ashamed for putting the BS in that position in the first place. They will feel shame if they have a conscience, and they should. Show me a "resentful" WS and I will show you one who is still in a FOG.

The point that we have stated back to you, that you contually ignore, is that this is not a relevant issue because any resentment from exposure goes away when the WS truly recovers and feels remorse for his actions. Unless that happens, there isn't going to be any recovery anyway.


The IMPORTANT resentment, that truly does impede recovery, is that which the BS feels about the affair. Dr. Harley writes about this resentment and even agrees that in some cases it is not possible to overcome and the BS is right to move on.


Of course not. Because they don't post here. It is not the EXPOSED WS who posts here, but their spouses. Not that it's even relevant.


And you are correct, that is just your unsubstantiated opinion that is not backed up by any facts, much less anecdotes or case studies. It's a shame you don't apply the same scrutiny to yourself that you seem to want to apply to Marriage Builders principles [demands for "case studies" "statistics," etc] so please excuse me if I find it a little hard to believe this is anything more than an AX to grind by a very fogged out, biased, fresh WS. Certainly not an intellectual pursuit to "understand" MB principles.

Albeit, my experiences are relatively new, I believe that the most harmful resentments emanate from both parties, both the BS and the WS. Obviously, the WS has committed the most egregious offense, but certainly the WS doesn't have the corner on wrongdoing. Many factors in a M contribute to the existence of an A. The resentment of a WS toward widespread exposure should not be dismissed

But it certainly should not be taken seriously as that is a character defect to "RESENT" facing the consequences of one's actions. Rather, we should encourage them to face the consequences with character and decency and courage, NOT to brood and resent. One who resents being caught at bad behavior is not in any semblance of recovery. That person should be helped to recover, rather than helping them engage in even more immature, irresponsible behavior.

A truly recovered WS does not feel "resentment" for facing the consequences of thier actions, they feel REMORSE. And they should feel ashamed for putting the BS in that position in the first place. Show me a "resentful" WS and I will show you one who is still in a FOG.

SFJAJ I think you might be too fogged out to see this rationally yet.

Of course there are often wrongs on both sides of a marriage but an affair is a CHOICE.

Widespread exposure is recommended by Harley himself. Resentment caused by this is nothing in comparison to the harm caused by an affair. Any tactic is permissable to end an affair. Exposure is the most effective tactic to this end.

sfjaj...


NOPE...Not even close...the Affair was your CHOICE alone...marital problems did not make you CHOOSE to have an affair...That albatross you MUST OWN all by your lonesome...

Until you see this, your views here will continue to be skewed by the FOG, my friend...

Godspeed in your recovery...


Mrs. Wondering

Hey Sfjaj have you told the OMW about the OC? That might really help with the recovery. What are you going to do to make that easier on her?

sfjaj,


No, they don't, they may create the conditions making it susceptible to an affair but SOLELY the WS's choices create it's existence.


A truly fully repentent WS in a recovered marriage should end up having NO resentment over exposure period. She/he will hopefully and eventually understand it as a troublesome and perhaps uncomfortable consequence of HIS/HER mistake(s). Especially, if done the MB way.

Conversly, just maybe an unexposed WS will have some latent resentment of the BS that doesn't fully expose and pull the WS out of the affair sooner. The BS that allows the ridiculous to carry on and not do everything within his/her power to "save" their spouse from themselves. I'd be more concerned about that BS. I know I feel guilty for at least not exposing Mrs. Wondering to her parents (she did it) and to OM's parents (never done). I perhaps could have squashed the affair sooner and saved us both a lot of bitter memories...even if only by a few weeks.

Mr. Wondering

It's not the BS job to "save" the WS from himself/herself. I really do not believe ANY tactic is permissible in ending an A. I confessed to mine, and I do believe that any consequences I suffer are a direct result of my selfishness in pursuing emotional fulfillment outside of my M. I have no "fog", as you call it, or illusion about the mess I have created in my M and in our lives.

I do not, however, believe that any means are justified by an end result. I believe the feelings of both parties are important and should not be recklessly disregarded...There are many wrongs and errors that can lead to a collapse in a M. An A is a huge one, but there are others. I don't believe that widespread exposure is a panacea

Otherwise, married couples would be exposing EVERY wrong by a spouse in a marriage, and that would lead to little to no healing possibilities. I respect the viewpoints presented but do not believe that every situation warrants the same treatment

But we are not talking about "every little thing." We are talking about an affair, an entirely different thing. No one ever said "every situation warrants the same treatment."

You confessed to yours - Good for you. Did you confess about OC though.

You may not see yourself as foggy but you show all the signs. Really, you should get the Foghorn of the month award here. Congratulations.

You are kidding.

Exposure of an affair is for the purpose of saving a marriage.

To compare any other infraction in the same light as infidelity is insulting and foggy in the extreem.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

this is too ironic .... reckless disregard for others .... imagine THAT!

LOL