I had another counseling session last night.<P>Dear D&C,<P>I just wanted to let you know that light switch went off last night. Even though you kept telling me to put those romantic novels down for some reason it didn't hit me until last night. The counselor asked why exactly I mourn this OM so such, what did he do for me, what were all his qualities my husband didn't have.<P>After saying a few things, I said "he's a romantic, he used to send me an email every morning just saying "goodmorning my love", and he did and said everything I've ever dreamed. But it was mostly the written words, he wrote me letters that made me feel like I was a princess. I quoted a letter he wrote me about why God him his 5 senses, I showed him the reasons for touch, sight, smell, hearing, etc. All his little nicknames for me, Angel, Sunshine, Daisy, butterfly. That's what I miss the most. We used to talk about our vacations, our weekend getaways, making love in a bathtub with bubbles & champayne.<P>You know Dazed, even as I was talking to her I felt so silly and stupid. She said "do you really think you your life would always be that way with him?" <P>I said "no of course not." But that's what I'm really missing from him, more than anything else.

Wouldn't we all like that? Sure! And men would like their wives to look like Pamela Anderson Lee, too. <P>My H, who's a pretty bright guy for all that he can't see inside himself, says that romance novels are "female porn." And he's right. If conventional pornography sets up unrealistic expectations of what men can expect women to be, certainly romance novels set up unrealistic expectations of what women expect men to be.<P>Maturity comes in separating the fantasy from the reality.<P>You know, given that your OM pursued YOU, I wonder if some of those E-mail notes weren't "romantic", but manipulative. Frankly, I'm suspicious of men who do stuff like that. They're NOT SUPPOSED TO. It's not in their nature. (OK, guys, flame away.) <P>I'm convinced that men think differently about such things than we do. My H brings me peach roses on Valentine's Day and my birthday, because he knows I like them. Now he gets me jewelry. But he doesn't do anything "just because", whereas whenever I go out, I try to bring him something. <P>There's a line in a very cute movie called OVERNIGHT DELIVERY where Reese Witherspoon does this rant about guys and roses. Rent it. It's a cute flick, Witherspoon is great, and the speech is worth listening to, even if Witherspoon is only 23. <P>But your counselor is right. If you left your H and ran off with OM, your life would NOT be just one endless string of romantic words. Sooner or later, real life kicks in, you're too tired, and instead of mushy E-mail, you're talking about Al Gore. It happens. The test of love is not what you feel when it's new, it's what you have left after 10 years.<P>I'm not saying it's easy. I write historical fiction with some romantic elements. That's a more dangerous trap thatn reading romances, because when you write, you get to create the men the way you want them. There have been times when I've wished so hard that my H could be like [ ], one of my characters. Sometimes I've felt discontented because of it. Then I laugh at myself because I'm just like Mia Farrow in PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO: "I've met the greatest guy. Of course, he's fictional, but you can't have everything."<P>The problem you ran into is that you ran into a flesh-and-blood guy who did those "fictional" things. But that doesn't make it any more permanent.<P>Maybe what you need to do is look at what it is inside of you that NEEDS that so badly. Perhaps it is a short-term self-esteem fix. If that's the case, then the thing to work on is the self-esteem, not getting another fix.<P>Hope this helps.

Hummingbird,<BR>D&C us right. The wonderful part gives way to the run of the mill (only if you let it.) However, I think 99.9% of us allow it to become just that. If you want your H to do those things, you have communicate your desires to him. God made men and women different for a reason. We think differently. That is where we need to accept that we need to tell our spouses what we need. If I were on the emotional roller coaster that my W is on, I would have left her long time ago because she is not meeting my needs. I am a romantic but not in the way that is most meaningful to my W. However, unless she communicates her needs to me, I will never know. Besides I think the other factor that comes into play with affairs is the adrenalin rush that comes along with the potential to be caught.<P>D&C,<BR>It is okay to be suspicious of guys that do that particularly when it is not your H. They have no other motive than to tempt you into doing something that will only hurt you and the ones you really care about but don't realize at the moment in the long run. No God didn't make us men to be that romantic thing except during the early portion of the relationship. However, God also made us with a mouth to communicate our needs: that is why we must confess our sins and make our desires known to Him. It is so that we get in touch with what really makes us tick so that we learn to communicate those things to those who don't read our minds as He can. He knows what you are going to think before you even think it.<P>MONDO HUG to you both!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

D&C: The night my wife left she was feeling ill and so was my youngest son. Both had fevers and could not rest. I left the house to get some Tylenol for my youngest to bring down his fever. While I was at the store I passed the Ice Cream section and saw my wife's favorite ice cream. I paused for a moment and walked over and grabbed it to take to her. Again walking through the store I passed the floral dept. and saw the beautiful roses. Again I stop, walked over and picked out a dozen for her. I did not have alot of money and she did not ask for these things, but I thought that if these small things would make her eyes bright for one second then my trip would have been worth while. She left that night. She never ate any of the ice cream. She took the roses and placed them in the refrigerator at the OM house. These things were just because. you say things are better when they are just because. I don't think this just because helped...Sorry if I put a damper on this post.

Thanks and your right I have low self-esteem and self confidence. I constantly need reassurance and the OM always gave me that. As you know my husband is not a romantic guy at all, but he can try and I'm just as fault for not communicating to him what I need and want.<P>I have never taken a bubble bath with him or shared my deepest desires with him, I keep them bottled up inside. The counselor suggested I try that bubble bath with him. I asked her again about admiting about the affair and how scared I was for his reaction, she repeated I didn't have to admit as long as I can live with myself. I know you guys I feel I should and I'm still struggling with that. The counselor told me to give it 6 more weeks and see how I feel about the OM at that point and my marriage. She confirmed I need to get over the OM because I'm not thinking rationally about my marriage.<P>I know everyone says you had an affair to 2 yrs., how could he not know something is wrong, he did know and does still know but he thinks it's all our other issues and like was said on another thread we have never been emotionally connected and it has gotten worse. There are days we come home from work, eat dinner without saying hardly anything, then he goes out to do his hobby, when he comes home I'm sleeping and he's O.K. with that. <P>Sometimes I feel it's only when he wants to have sex that he trys to really talk to me and I've felt like he's taken me forgranted for years now. At times, I don't feel like he's even my friend, he's someone I share my house with.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 01, 1999).]

Sorry after rereadin this it didn't make sense. I must not have been fully awake, or the baby was crying. My H was not romantic to me. It was something I always wished for just something a little extra, a note that wasn't always so practical. I gave up on it many years ago. When he gave me a St. Patrick's Day card it confirmed what I had been thinking for a few weeks that he was having an affair. That is because I had found cards from her and he had written a check for cash just after he had written another check for cash to have money for the pop machine a work. You don't go 10 in pop in two days. THen I gat a card, he had never done that before guilt I guess.He could be romantic to her for her but not me. I did the same things for him but apparently it didn't mean as much as her gestures. Sorry. I don't why he could do it for her and not me. He had shut me out of his life a few years ago never responded to me so I quit trying guess he was ready again and I wasn't there. I guess she excited him.<P>------------------<BR>di<BR><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited October 01, 1999).]

Hummingbird,<P>So you loved how he made you feel. And how he made you feel caused you to feel you loved him. You can see now that you did not love him in his entirety, but rather you loved his words and actions that he used on you. <P>Now I won't cut and paste that one post, but it seems to me that he was a bit of a brown noser...wasn't that right? So do you think he knew what to say and what to do to make you feel like he wanted to make you feel because he was good at it? Kind of like he brown nosed you? Did he sincerely mean what he said when he was brown nosing others, or was it said to serve a purpose? Do you think that, at least in the beginning, he may have been doing this? Remember you can not trust a man with slicked back hair.<P>He's a manipulator. I would bet anything on it. <P>Your H can duplicate some of this stuff. You have quite a few issues to cut through to maybe get to that point...and you got to realize your life will not be a romantic fantasy...but if you like pet names and sweet notes...maybe that could happen. I love it when my H smiles at me. He tends to always be in a hurry and his mind is thinking about the next thing to check off on this list, so although his mood is fine, he doesn't smile that much. I ask him to smile at me more often, he has the cutest crinkles around his eyes. So now sometimes he will be racing around, he'll stop and he'll smile. My heart melts. It takes five seconds, the rest of life stays the same, but it makes a big impact.<P>I'm glad your session went well and your counselor dropped that soul mate stuff. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I know I might get blasted for this...but, if you can honestly get over the OM and give all your effort to your marriage I don't know if it's necessary to tell your husband about the affair.<P>You have other problems that need to be worked out in your marriage without adding an affair to the mix. I don't mean to belittle the tremendous betrayel of an affair and the effect it could have on your husband, but from the way you talk I don't know if you could work on your issues with your husband knowing what you did.<P>Try communicating with your husband, try the bubble bath...maybe he'll enjoy it just as much as you would.<P>What does your counselor mean by giving it 6 more weeks to see how you feel about the OM and your marriage? I don't think 6 weeks is enough time to get over the OM, especially when you see him every day. Honestly, I think you will still love the OM, but I don't think that that should have an effect on your marriage anymore. You will still love him, but it still doesn't make a difference...he's still with his wife and from the sound of it will always be with his wife.<P>If my counselor said to me to give it 6 weeks, I would still feel like desperately hanging on to the OM and still believe in the back of my head that one day we would be together. I don't know, maybe that's just my warped mind!<P>I know how you feel about just sharing a house. I feel like I'm ALWAYS the one to initiate any sort of interaction in the house. If I didn't try to have contact with my husband he would be perfectly happy with playing on the computer, watching sports, or playing play station all day. It's the same way with getting him out of the house to do anything. I like to get out and do things and I always feel like a pain in the a$$ when I have to beg him to do something. He usually ends up giving in, but I hate that it's always against his will!

I should of been more specific. The counselor said we had to fill out a treatment plan and it asked for a timeframe for each specific problem I wanted to work on. <P>She's knows I'm very depressed and in withdrawal but she tried to reassure me that if I limit my interaction with the OM the pain will subside and I will be able to focus on the issues in my marriage. She said "let's put down 6 weeks in getting over the OM and see where you stand then". She said it could take much longer especially because I work with him. She also said I will probably always love him in a way, which made me sad, I don't want to love him anymore.<P>I know about the initiating part, that's my case too, I have to always think of something for us to do, go for a walk, or whatever. I only see that spark in his eyes when he's talking to his hunting buddies or planning a trip with them. He would never plan a weekend getaway with me.

Sometimes I think all that "bubblebath/fancy underwear" stuff is overrated...forced...some men feel silly.<P>If I ever suggested a bubblebath at home with my H, he'd look at me like I'd just suggested a trip to Jupiter.<P>But you know, you CAN do things to change your dynamic. You might put out BUCKETS of effort and get back raindrops, but so what? As long as there's results.<P>I don't wear much jewelry, but I feel it's a romantic gift. Yeah, roses are nice, but when you've gotten the same peach roses every holiday for 2 years, it gets like, "Yeah, well, roses again...they're very nice, but roses again." Like there's no thought put into it. After 15 years, my H bought me some sterling silver earrings for my birthday. Nothing spectacular, just pretty earrings. I went nuts. I praised him to the skies. You would have thought it was the Hope Diamond. <P>So for our anniversary, he bought me a beautiful pendant, with some nice stones. Not cheap, but didn't break the bank either. But it was nice, he put thought into it, and HE was happy that I was happy.<P>Wow! empathy! Maybe I can do something about this after all.<P>I know this sounds awful, but men are like dogs. If you praise them for peeing outside, they learn to pee outside much more quickly, in order to get your praise, than if you punish them for peeing in the house.<P>I think you have to know the limitations of your H, and don't start introducing aggressively "romantic" things all at once. I think that you get back what you give. So try doing something romantic for HIM. If he likes it (and if he doesn't, he may be irredeemably closed up), then you can let him know that you like that sort of thing too.<P>One question for you, Hum: If you really need those flowery words, and your H isn't that type, then what attracted you to him in the first place?

My H would also look at me like I was from Jupiter. My tummy, after three kids and his tummy from too many cookies would not be a pretty sight sticking through the bubbles anyway.<P>That's why the smile thing works for me. H is also great with hugs. It is easy for him.<P>I am also lavish with praise, but I always was so not sure if this is too effective anymore after 17 years.<P>Would I like those romantic things? Maybe, but it would be kind of weird, really.<P>Just gaving a good solid relationship is enough. A occasional date night in the family room with stuffed salmon and a comedy cuddled up on the couch (with H, not the salmon) or a night out and about once in a while...or exporting the kids for a night, even better, has great returns on minimum investment.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

The buble bath and romance for some reason was what my H seemed to be looking for either that or a little kinky nothing drasticly( at least I don't think so) Anyway the kind of stuff I always wanted him to do, I tried to give him what he wanted but I didn't feel comfortable. Not with what we were doing but with myself, my body. See she was skinner, spent money on herself and look good everytime he saw her. I tried that too but he had a real hang up on my weight. I was trying to loose but I guess it wasn't fast enough. He should see me now!!!!!! I would even look good in almost anything, another 5 pounds and watch out! I keep getting interrupted and lose track of where I am and what I am trying to say. But I think all of this is fantasy we are tired of the real world and wan to escape and that is all it is a way to escape dealing with life. A little romance never hurt anyone and you can find it in your marriage you don't have to wait for the S. But to want it constantly won't work and it won't last. It can't because life happens and you have to deal with it and you get tired, and you are human and you get cranky. Romance can't deal with that. That is why it doesn't last. It doesn't hold up in the real world, and after awhile he?she would be too tired to do those little romantic things. And you would be back where you started, actually you would be farther back because you had given up too much to be with that person who turned out not to be prince charming.------------------<BR>di<BR><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited October 01, 1999).]

Hummingbird and D&C<BR>My w suffers from self esteem problems too,and i suffer from being a guy. I don't wear jewelry and it hard for me to understand why w wnats jeweley all the time plus I can'r remember what i bought her before. Same with the flowers, yellow rose every occasion ? Also sex in special places, how can you do that when you have 2 kids running around! I know you can go to a hotel but I'm frugal/cheap.<BR>The om was able to meet all these needs because he was trying to win her over(I already"had" her)so he was trying extra hard, also my w said he had emotions like a woman so he was able to tap into her feeling and boost her ego while I was dumb and blind and waited for the problem to solve itself. <BR>Communication was needed on both our parts and we are beginning to see that now.<BR>Fortunetely my w has seen that the om is a liar and that he couldn't keep up all the things he promised and when push came to shove he dumped her after numerous times when she was questioning things that he loved her and would be there for her and would support her. But when things got tough on his side, he went running back to his wife(thank God!).<BR>Hang in there! I don't whether its a good idea to tell your h or not but it may help clear your concious.

He was my first serious boyfriend and I think alot of my problem is that I didn't date more. He was cute, great body, funny (I love a sense of humor), a hard worker, ambitious and he actually did write me a few letters in the beginning and I thought it was so cute because it got really shy and was kindof embarrassed to show me. He was never a word guy but I guess it didn't matter as much to me then, I thought all guys were like that. He actually does call me his "little pumpkin".<P>Then the OM comes along and he swept me off my feet. BTW I sent the OM a really nasty email yesterday telling me to leave me alone, don't look at me or talk to me. I gathered up everything I had left from him today, post-it notes with little hearts saying I love and how pretty you are, dryed flowers, everything and gave it back to him. He was very angry with me but I also called him choice names and he said "I'm warning you if you start acting really mean towards at work and other people start asking why, I'll tell them about our affair", I said "listen, I will business-like towards you but there is no reason why I have to friendly. We can avoid eachother and I am looking for another job." He said "it's hell for me too and you may not believe it but I meant everything I've always told you, I do love you, I'm a giver you know that and I'm sacraficing everything for my son and if it wasn't for him I'd be with you, it's not that I don't care about my wife at all but I chose to stay for the family and I will spend the rest of my life sacraficing for my family, I'm buying a new car for my wife not myself because that's what she wants, she always get what she wants and always be giving it to her and if this is the last conversation we'll ever have I want to leave by saying I love you my Angel and always will". Then he walked away.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 01, 1999).]

RWD:<P>You've touched on something important here. It's hard to understand someone else's need when yours aren't the same. But if you CAN, it's a major way of depositing love units.<P>I've made TONS of progress with my H; truly I have. The jewelry is nice. That he likes my new hair style is nice. I'm trying to be more vocal about affection, and when he's more so too, I praise him (that dog thang again ). <P>The "last bastion": his wedding ring.<P>In spring of 1998, when he was going out 3-4 nights a week with his friends from work, he started taking off his ring intermittently. Allegedly it was to play the guitar, or to work inside PCs and since it flops around on his finger (he has big knuckles and slim fingers, so any ring he can take off will flop around). I'd see it in the basement and put it on his desk, and if I reminded him, he put it back on.<P>Then he lost it. Well. This was all around the time that the thing with OW/"friend" kicked up, and he can call it an accident or say he lost it all he wants...there was a reason.<P>Last December, when things started getting a bit better, I asked him: If I bought you a new ring, would you wear it? He said yes. So we went together after Christmas, picked out a ring, and had it sized. It was still too big; and it fell off his finger in the shower. He said he'd get it sized again....and never did. Ten months later, the ring is still in a box on the nightstand.<P>It would mean everything in the world if he put it back on...but it's such a lovebuster to him if I nag him, and I don't want him to wear it because I nagged him, I want him to WANT to wear it.<P>And I don't think he ever will, because he never wore rings before (though he wore a wedding ring for 10 years).<P>So what are my choices? Stew about it, live with resentment and nag him to death, or figure that day-to-day life is more important?<P>My point is that ultimately women (and men) have to decide what's important. You're going to have needs that aren't met by your spouse all the time. Men are usually not going to be "romantic." Like I said to my sister once, the only way you get that "rush" of a new relationship is to jump from one to another to another. And ultimately that's not satisfying either.<P>

Oy, Hum, this guy is a master manipulator. He wants a relationship with you on HIS terms, and he's willing to blackmail you to get it -- even to the point of jeopardizing his OWN job.<P>Hum, you've got to change jobs. What do you do for a living? You want to ignore him, but he wants to be friends, and he'll spill the beans if you don't play his way.<P>You MIGHT be able to finesse this by keeping things to a simple "Good morning". But I don't know that for sure, and neither do you.<P>Be careful. You have to stop lashing out at him. As long as you have this job, keep a civil tongue in your head. Your withdrawal is YOUR problem.<P>The real answer is to leave this job, because if he's starting to talk like this, you don't know what he might do, and companies do NOT take kindly to this sort of thing.

I know dazed, it's my problem, but I get so angry. I'm an executive assistant but I've been here for 10 years and make good money, I've followed my supervisor up the ranks over the years and me & him work great together. <P>I never thought he'd say that, I think he was bluffing but I can't take that chance. Then he took the envelope I gave him with everything in it and said "I'm leaving this in my desk, if you ever want it back, maybe I'll give it to".

A threat and cap it off by a proclaimation of love.<P>Yup, he's a keeper. A prince among men. <P>But really Hum, I know you already did it, but it may have been more tactful to just dump the stuff rather than return it. You are stirring up emotions that are not helpful. If you want him to leave you alone, then you leave him alone, plain and simple. Do not unload on him. You no longer have a connection, he no longer needs to know how you feel, nor do you need to know how he feels.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I know FHL I was asking for trouble. That wasn't the mature thing to do.<P>I need to channel my anger somewhere, maybe I should take up kickboxing.

Good for you, Hummingbird. <P>Kick boxing is good. <P>Remember, don't stuff your feelings, just do not act on everything you feel.<P>Hope your weekend goes well, and Mr. Slicked back black hair slithers to his new location so you don't have to see him.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13