Honesty - Should I ask him?

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May 2004 - ONS on a business trip followed by e-mails
Oct-May 2005 - "2 ONS" (if there is such thing) with a local girl he stayed in touch (EA) for 8 months after.
Recently a ONS (woman from another country, meet her sat and SA mon before she left) then e-mail and msn daily for one week till I find.
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We are supposed to be in recovery.
I am not so sure because my husband is not really reassuring me, at least I don't feel it. I am almost sure about NC, and because he usually deals with "guilt" by running away from the situations he created, I believe we are in recovery, or at least trying.

I have always been follower of radical honesty. I always tried to do the right thing and I am usually a very (too much) understanding person. And used to be a very rational person.

Since my honesty to him didn't really worked on the two first affairs, (I only had him admiting them now, after this last one, the one I had proof), I truly believe (or wish?) it's time for him now to be total honest.

After D-Day, I asked him for a NC letter to be written in front of me. He did it.
I asked him to delete the messenger from office computer and he did it.
A few days later I asked him to delete all these women contacts from his Address book. and to delete this last woman address from the block mail option. And asked for their name card to trash it.
He did all this with me by his side in his office.

He did it, but he was upset I was not trusting him, and asked my why I asked him this since he had told me he would never contact them again. I explained.

I found out later, that he deleted them form computer but not from server, so they are still there.

I told him about it and he was upset that I didn't told him earlier and that he didn't know and explained the server and isync stuff to explain it, I believe it because I know how his mail works.

A few days ago he told me the new software for MSN that he purchased 3 months ago was very nice.
He says he told me about but he didn't. I was a little upset and he told me he had never used it to msn any women.
Anyway, he never showed this software to me.(as he would usually do before all this mess (he always asked me for passwords to whatever he was signing in on the internet)

He uses an web based e-mail, mac one for everything.
But he got a new mail last october on his new job that he says he never uses and told me he had set it up to forward all mail to his mac-mail.



I feel he should be the one to show me this things. To remember to delete the contacts that are still there in my presence. To give me the password to that e-mail and show me it's empty.

My question is:
Should I be the one to ask him for all of this???

I feel like I am always the one to bring everything up. He's the one who must prove me I can trust him.

I know that this is not much of a proof he's now honest, he can always create a new mail or whatever. But for me this is just important as to give me some feeling of disclosure. Or am I just being silly or in some kind of BS fog???
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Second question about gut feeling!

Sometimes I feel that he is in contact with this last women. It's my gut feeling telling me this. No really signs from him. I am not really snooping anymore. I got tired of it all.
I have no way to find proof. Even if I go to his office, in the middle of the night, because I am sure he deletes everything if there's anything at all, since he knows I can ask him to browse his computer at any time.

But can I really trust my gut feeling when in such pain only 2 months into d-day and 1 month of trying recovery?

I am really thinking about a big bluff scene about this... but his so defensive if not faced with proof.

Sorry my posts are always so long... I am not a native english and sometimes it's hard to express myself.
Thank you all in this site.

willow,

Your english is very good and very understandable. Your husband is a different kind of cheater. I know about this kind....because I married one. He isn't really interested in having real relationships with these women. He doesn't love them. They are convenient when he is lonely or feeling the excitement or danger in these foreign place. He feels "entitled" to do what he wants to when he is far away from you, and he lacks the character to resist what is so easy for him to get. My husband also had to travel for his job....and cheating was something that was very common in his line of work.

Your husband is not showing a reasonable amount of remorse and accountability that would help you trust him. Real recovery in my marriage meant that my husband had to ultimately change jobs and stay home. He has to take an occasional trip....but the company he works for now....is very anti-infidelity and alchohol....these trips are very different from the ones he took before. We had to make changes that protected our marriage.

My husband....your husband....they are what we would call "serial cheaters" (men who have the potential to cheat over and over again....and usually do). It isn't impossible to recover such a marriage....but it is much much harder and even more safeguards and conditions must be in place to protect you. I personally, put all the conditions in writing and we signed them with a notary. One of my conditions was that my husband had to raise his conciousness and spirit by doing community service and being active in church so that it wasn't so easy to "dismiss" the destructive choices that he was making. Being a foreign journalist will continue to create opportunities for your husband to cheat. Everytime he leaves....you will feel sick and fearful. Your suspicions will not calm because the situation continues to make your marriage so vulnerable.

You guys need counseling....and I think the Harleys would be a good choice. Without a real PLAN for recovery.....I am worried that you will continue to be at risk for more heartache. I can see why you are fearful.

(((((((((((((((((willow))))))))))))))))))))

You can address the computer issue with a keylogger or spying software. Even if he deletes stuff, these programs will retain what he did when he was on the computer.

I was reading your fear post yesterday...

I see that one of my fears is to admit to myself that he is a "serial cheater"
And that brings me to the fear of "wasting" my time just to get hurt again in the future.

Considering that I feel I could be better on my own. I mean he is a very hard person to live with. He is selfish needs lots of love and support (sometimes even more then the girls) and he is also a very stressed person. The past two years were very hard because of his problems with his job (he lost his position-family betrayal). I have been there, I only had time for him and the girls and frequently "out of ideas" on my creative work.Now I see that he was stressed but not ONLY from his job, but because he was having an affair.
Until d-day, I though that everything was worth fighting for because he was a very sensitive and honest person, with high values, we have went trhu so much together and we had such a great relationship, so great that until 2 years ago we were still feeling like we were so much in love as when we meet. We were so proud that with all the problems we lived together we were still so much in love we felt that we could face everything because we had each other. All the troubles never affected our love.


Looking back... What I really fear?

That after all he is just a bad character. That for him cheating is just that, harmless, nothing, bla, bla.bla.

That he wants to stay in this marriage because it's the right thing to do RIGHT now. He can control his desires for now... and in the long run if he really feels he needs these 'affairs" he be more careful or he'll divorce by then.
Financially, girls still young, and because he still needs me. He wants this marriage to be the respectful journalist, father and husband. And continuing to have this affairs because for him it's just that, something to make him feel good (he has very low self-esteem) as far as I don't know about it, there's no harm.

BUT then he says that sex was very bad in all the situations, and that he was drunk in all of them but not in the last one.
And that there was an emotional atachment, because he needs this emotional atachment.

Yes sex is his first EN. But we had such a great sexual life... kind of Radical honesty - Hot intimacy they're talking on the other board.
I mean when I read MB about making a strong marriage almost everything is exactly what we had in our marriage.
We lived to fulfill each other needs and for our daughters and we were happy.

Does it makes sense?

Anyway I just briefly talked to him last night about honesty and he just said that he's afraid to talk about certain subjects because I will judge him and he might say thinks that I will consider him a bad person and he's too much afraid of loosing me.

I just pointed at him that WE HAVE ALWAYS discussed EVERYTHING and that for any reason one would disagree or didn't like the other opinion, we would bring back the subject until we reach a conclusion, point of view we both be confortable with. This was applied to: relationship, education, household, movies, friends, news, ideals, work, etc.

He swears he's not hiding anything, not contacting any of them, and that he's trying to be total honest.


Finally I am truly in doubt that there's any chance for him to even realize what kind of person he is turning himself to, or any remote choice of him to change, or be who he was before. Actually I have a hard time trying to know who he really is.

lost willow,


I had difficult time reading your post as I do all posts where the self deception of the BS is so obvious to all except themselves.

A spouse that has 3 affairs(that you know of)in less than 2 years of a 12 year marriage, is not only suffering from low self esteem but is also viciously lashing out at his spouse and his children.

My advice is to face reality, this man has severe character faults. Among them but not limited to,intimacy problems, infidelity, honesty and a very large dab of misogyny.

Protect yourself and your children and DEMAND immediate and verifiable individual counseling by your WS. And obviously protect yourself sexually by demanding STD tests every 3 months until you have incontrevertible proof for at least a 2 year period of his continuous fidelity. Lastly, focus on yourself and the obvious problems that you have in dealing with the reality of your situation. Your problem is endemic to BS's

I truly wish you well and will include you in my prayers.

Thanks for the input CHTK but... I would have to "stalk" into his office during the night... And I am not so sure I want those criminal feelings on me right now.

I already feel so bad that I feel like I have to stop being total honest.

And for the first time I am hiding from him that I revenged from the two first women. Out of anger I did some harmless revenge but a revenge non the less.

When I made him get us tested for STD's a along with my searches on the internet I found a very reliable and non trackable site for people with STD's, anonymously, send to possible contaminated partners . I made sure the text was written in a way they would relate to my WH but without identify him.

Since we are talking about women who have several S partners I believed it worked, at least I got them scared for some time... and the shame of getting tested.

But did it felt good when I was in the anger stage? Yes
But now? I broke my own values doing it, I dont feel that bad because I really think it was harmless.

I will eventually check his mail but I am really tired of snooping and living in doubts.

Hi Cymanca.

He still says he doesn't know why he did it. (He took back what he stated about the kids being the reason)

So who is he for real???

The man I married and was honest for 10 years?
The man he became during this last 2 years?

Who's the real him?

I mean, I believe he was drunk the first time it happened. He was scared and afraid of the consequences, he lied and denied to "protect" me from the pain and to protect himself. (It was really bad) And since then our relationship begun to detiorate.
Because we begun to have lies and secrets between us.
Because I lived in constant loss of self respect and feeling I could not trust my instincts anymore, living between the guilt of being a paranoid wife for not trusting him and the feeling he really had done something wrong.

I must add, all the stress from his work begun right after he returned from this long business trip, including the family betrayal.
Elder daughter went to P1 and had troubles, and only recently we found she's dislexic, along with her (much better) heart condition. Younger one started to show Attensive disorder behavior, and has an huge tendency for anemics.

We had to take action and give all our efforts for his career. He worked from 14 pm to 2-3am - Everyday, except on saturdays.
I work full time and was responsible for everything else, including him. To give him strengh and support, advice and even helpe him with his work. Our time was little, but I would usually wake up(at least 3 nights a week) to be with him when he arrived late in the evening.

Once he got away with it the first time... he went for the second... and now for the third time... each of them getting worse...

He tried it outside and liked it? He became addicted? He can't live without it?



Who's the real him?

He says he wont do it again because now he see's how bad are the consequences.
He says he wants to be honest but is just acting defensive. He wont even talk about his work, he wont call 2-3 times a day has he used to
previous to d-day.

He says he doesn't ant to pressure me and he's afraid of rejection, and that if he comes all the time being nice I can think he's just trying to "bribe" me.
He says he has no idea on what to do to prove me he's being honest and in NC with anyone.

His job is still very demanding but he has to travel much less. He says he will refuse all trips he can and if he really has to go we will find a way for me to go as well.

Right after he denied first ONS and we finally agreed on never talking about it again.

WH: I love you very much and we have such a great sexual life. I don't need or wish to be with any other women. But I think we need to develop our sexual life into another level. We should try an open marriage. Not right now, later, with time, we can start with a trheesome or something. Can you imagine the level of trust we would have if one could come home and tell the other about a ONS or something. That's the real goal the top level achievement of trust between a couple.

WH: Well, due to my job it is very possible that something will eventually happen some time. What would that matter and how could it affect us if your the one I love and come home to every night?


All this refering to OW n.2 - she's 26

WH: She's just a pour young girl and I felt I needed to support her, she's just a friend and I am like a father to her, that's why we message and mail all the time.

WH: I left home at 1am, to meet her at a bar because I was curious to know what were her problems with her current BF.

WH: I dont know anything about women thinking, how can I know why she send me 6 messages during the night when in Thailand with a boyfriend?


After d-day
WH: I just kept mailing them because I was afraid they would contact you and tell you what happened. (2 of them from other countries with no chance of contacting me)

WH: I had to keep EAs with them because I didn't want to feel like the bad guy who only had a ONS with them. And I just wanted to forget about what happened because I was feeling so guilty, continuing the contact would fade the SA.

WH: Well, all journalists are cheaters or divorced.

WH: How can you tell me I wasn't honest? I am, I am still a good person. Besides almost everybody cheat nowadays.

WH: I did it because we had our kids too young. (a proud and loving father for 8 years)



So what is this??? Babble talk? Withdraw?

Do serial cheaters have some kind of fog????

Is he trying to justify he's actions still?

Who's saying all this? The real him?

I will try to see if he gets counceling for himself.

I am already in IC and taking anti-depressives.
I am only eating healthy food. I force myself to eat.
I am exercising because my brain really needs it.
And finally I am able to sleep 5 hours strait without nightmares.

Yes I am now working hard on myself.
Still very hard to work thou <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Can't seam to find a way to be creative anymore... but I'll get there.

Thank you all so much for listenning.

Star*fish I was re-reading your pos and yes, he says that, he doesn't love them, but he has an emotional connection with them... a fantasy out of all the stress and reality.

He has a business trip next weekend and wants me to go with him.

He said he wot make any more business trips unless I go as well.

Hard call for me right now. Trip is important for his profession.
I have family from europe staying for 3 weeks, they will be upset if I go out for 3 days... since I am working and only have time to walk them around on weekends. And this is China, not easy for them to walk around by themselves.

Should I let him go alone?

Family don't know anything about affairs. They are too far away to keep them worried.

Honesty still on hold... we didn't have much time to talk the past few days.

If you are having company and can't leave, what is he willing t/d to help you feel safe in his absence?

Your H sounds like a KISA.

L.

Hello Orchid!

I can go, I just don't feel good leaving my mother and cousin alone with the girls... My mother will understand if I tell her we REALLY would like to stay together for the weekend. We've done before when she was here, the cousin will be upset <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My H really wants me to go. For him it's a good oportunity for us to have a nice weekend just the two of us... since we don't really have much opportunities since we live so far away from family.

What's a KISA???

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KISA - Knight in Shining Armor.

Always to the rescue for damsals in distress. The problem is most of those damsels aren't in distress....they are making it up because they are such needy drama queens.

L.

Trip has been canceled by his company. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Orchid I guess you are very right. He's a KISA.

He is indeed very "sensitive?" to women... specially if they show any interest in him.



As for the situation we are not going anywhere.

Family here not leaving much space for us.

We haven't talked much the last few days.

He still in the "pretending" nothing happened stage or at least avoiding to talk.

I am feeling we are apart each day.

I really don't know where I am now, besides the fact that I am more interest on being strong and place myself first.

My "dilema" now is to find out who he is. The man I lived for ten years or the one from the past two years.