Last Sunday night as I got into bed, my wife, who was already asleep, told me that she was thirsty. I offered to get her a glass of water, but she immediately jumped up and got it herself. As we were getting ready to sleep, I said to her something like, "Can you believe that I still love you so much after all these years?" She didn't have much of a response, but she never really does.

I noticed as we were laying there, that she seemed unsettled. I kept prodding her, and finally she talked. She told me how she has been feeling different lately. I asked her, "Are you in love with me?" She responded, "I don't know." I remained calm, probably from shock.

The next morning, things started to hit me. I started going crazy. She is my life. We were finally getting settled and starting to move on in our lives.

Over the past couple of days, I've been trying not to bother her too much, but I can't help it. Our relationship does not follow typical gender roles. I tend to be the sensitive, nuturing one who shares emotions. She tends to be more reserved and doesn't like to share her emotions. That was how was knew something was REALLY wrong in the first place...because she was so distraught.

She has recently had a lot of changes in her life/schedule. We are both typically very busy and don't see each other a lot. Outside of her job, she had other activities that she did, but those have ended in the past couple of months. She also just recently got a big promotion. She has told me that she thinks her change in schedule has a lot to do with her confusion.

As I have said, she is very reserved with her feelings. She doesn't want to talk about things and she gets mad when I bring it up. I can't help it, though. I feel as though I am losing the most important thing in my life, and I am trying to hold on to it. She wants us to act "normal", but I can't stop thinking about anything else. The only time I don't think about it is when I am busy at work. I wrote all my feelings out and expressed them to her last night. When I brought it up, she made a face. When I finished, she had a blank stare. I felt as though that face meant she made up her mind and just didn't have the heart to tell me. She noticed that I was acting strangely this morning, so I mentioned my observation to her. She responded that she knows how I feel and it hurts her when she hears those things.

You may be wondering the significance of the glass of water and my statement to her in the first paragraph. She has told me that is one reason why she feels so bad. She said that I am such a good husband, and she feels guilty for even feeling the way she does.

She has decided that she is going to visit her family two weeks from today. She feels that she needs to just get away from everything. Ironically, her parents are going to a wedding when she is there, and she is going to attend (which she didn't want to, but this is the best time for her trip). She doesn't know if she is going to say anything to her family because she thinks they will hate her. I want her to talk to somebody though...maybe someone will tell her that things aren't always perfect.

I am glad that she is going because I think the alternative would be for me to leave. I recently told her that part of me wants to leave because that may be the only way that she realizes that she loves me, but that I am scared that if I leave, I may never go back. So I am being selfish and trying to take advantage of this time together. What makes it harder for me is that I don't live around many friends or family to keep me occupied. Therefore, I have a lot of free time to do nothing but think about things. Also, I don't want to say anything to my parents right now because they adore my wife and if things work out, I don't want their opinion of her to change.

I am very scared of losing my wife. I keep trying to tell myself that, deep down, she has to love me, but there is a part of me trying to prepare myself for the worst. She is able to act very naturally around me, but she won't kiss me or tell me she loves me. I think things like that hurt most of all. I try to act naturally, but I feel very transparent. The only good thing is that being with her calms me down. I am a basketcase when we are apart. She does let me hold her at night, so I at least have that.

I know the feelings haven't appeared out of nowhere. She said she has been feeling this way for a while. Thinking back, there were signs...especially last weekend.

What I need now is advise. Should I keep going, trying to act normally and wait for her? Should I give her space? I am at a complete loss. I know I have left out plenty of details, and I would bemore than will to share them. For now, anything is appreciated.

Welcome to MB!

Have you read all about Emotional Needs (ENs), Lovebusters (LB), The Lovebank, Rules of Marriage here on MB?

I thought I posted to you before...you look familiar. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like you believe that your feelings of love determine if you love.

I suggest you would consider that you choose to love. Which goes to whether you should leave if not loved, or not.

Our feelings come from our beliefs...have to have the belief we can be loved in order to feel loved, right? Making love an active verb...one of choice and action, goes a long way to not being ruled by your feelings, which are information about our beliefs...and choosing from firmer ground.

Nothing about gender reversal, btw. Most marriages are made up of two people...one who fears intimacy (your wife) and one who fears abandonment (you)...we actually fear both, but when you have a #1 fear, you're willing to face the other enough to protect the first.

No gender about it...just a human marriage. Great way to face our fears...together.

LA

You said there have been signs... Care to elaborate?

Where to start?!?!

Thank you for the insights LA. One thing I am really starting to come to terms with is my fear of being alone. I should mention that I am already divorced once, and that was a result of me withdrawing. The biggest difference with my first marriage is that I had withdrawn even before the wedding. It only lasted 4 months (we dated 6 years before marriage). I almost immediately got into a relationship with my current wife, which was probably a mistake. I think I should have taken some time on my own and come to terms with my emotions. Even though I wanted the divorce, I was still an emotional wreck. With all that being said, I have not been "alone" ever. I started dating my first wife at 17. I'm currently 29. This may cause you to wonder about my statement of still loving my current wife "after all these years." Well, I have always lost interest in relationships, and I am so happy that I love her now more than ever. For the record, we have been together for 5.5 years and married 3. I think my feelings toward my first marriage have led me to believe that must be how my current wife must feel about me. I have come to believe that she doesn't feel as I did, but it's still in the back of my head.

I read a lot of what is on the website. I am intrigued how my relationship fits the basic concepts. From what my wife has said to me, I believe that I should have plenty of "credit" in her love bank. The problem is that she sounds exactly like the description of being in withdrawal. She doen't want to let me do anything for her, and doesn't appear to really want to do much for me. I typically take care of the day to day business for the both of us. Now, she won't let me do things for her, and trys to do them herself.

We had a long conversation last night. She was very honest (which makes me feel like we are on the right track). I will post a little more about the conversation later, but one relevant point is that she has said that she finds herself being unhappy lately when she is at home. As I said before, she is typically always on the go. So this is one of her big points of confusion: is she unhappy because she is not busy, or because she is with me, or both? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is the first, but I am also being realistic that we may have other problems deeper.

Sorry about being so verbose. I have a lot of things to say, and no one to say them to.

Regarding some of the signs, I cannot remember them all off the top of my head but here are a few:

- She has gotten to where the main thing she does with her weekend is sleep. I know she is busy and tired, but I think it has become a way to withdraw.

- There are times when she will come home late after a day that we haven't seen each other and she will tell me that she wants to be alone.

- Lately, things have become more of hers and mine not ours. For the sake of full disclosure, I may be responsible for part of this. We keep separate accounts and I would always tell her it is "her money". She would say its "our money". Now she has started to say that it is "your money" and "my money". We are definitely not hurting financially, so it's not as though this is a problem, I think the issue of almost living separately is the concern.

More specifically, a couple of glaring things this last weekend were:

- She seemed very distant at times, but always said things were okay. She was convincing enough that I didn't push it. Plus, she becomes very angry if there really isn't anything wrong, and I insist.

- We had one very romantic interlude after which she turned me down for making love. We are both very physical people, but I tend to want it more than she does. It didn't strike me as too strange because this kind of thing has happened before, but not in this situation. It was only after the discovery of her feelings the next day that I realized what had happened.

Like I said, there have been other things here and there that have popped in my head, but these are the ones that stand out.

Sounds like withdrawal to me...from herself. Sleeping was my escape, my way of withdrawing, so I might be biased.

Kudos to you for staying present in this marriage, even now, when you're triggering to rejection which you used to react to with withdrawal. And for seeking help, reading and staying nonreactive.

Huge kudos, even.

Which brings me to my next point...did you do the EN questionnaires? I'm wondering if her need for admiration is very great and her confidence has come from that and appreciation. Could these be lacking? Acts of service, like the water thing, I believe are acknowledgements of worth...a sign you believe in her.

Now to the reservedness...which is a sugar-coated way to say she fears intimacy and reacts aggressively when pushed. When you call someone on their choices, people can either contemplate your belief, question it, or react to it without either. If they're doing the third way, well, it is a sign of an internal struggle.

I think you liked and were attracted to her reservedness...her containment. It was safe to you from previous engulfment you might have experienced and withdrew from. What do you think? We can't see where the opposite of what we've experienced isn't the cure...but it isn't.

How is your Openness and Honesty (O&H) been? How is it now, with her reactive, withdrawing state?

If I asked you to take your focus off of her and onto you, would you be willing to do that?

Have you snooped for evidence of an affair?

What did you think of the belief that love is a choice?

LA

I just did a massive post, and I lost it! Here goes again…

I’ll try to go point by point.

I have looked at the EN questionnaire, but I haven’t presented it to her. I’m not sure how she would respond. To be honest, I’m not even sure what she would choose. I am pretty confident that “honesty and openness” and “domestic support” would be there. As I read about recreational companionship, I think that may be there too. During our conversation last night, she mentioned I don’t share her passion for music (she had a band). I rarely attended her gigs because I didn’t want to go to bars by myself and hear the same songs. She also felt that when I did go, that I was bored (which isn’t true). She always said she understood, but I think deep down, it hurt her, and I was being selfish for not seeing that need in her. She always knew I supported her, but I didn’t give her that extra lift. If admiration is one of her needs, I don’t think that is lacking. I don’t think there is a day that goes by that I don’t tell her she is the most beautiful woman in the world, or how great she looks from her diet (even though she doesn’t need to diet), or how much I love her. The one thing that always bothers me is that it doesn’t seem to matter what I think, it’s what other people think.

I can’t believe that you nailed it with me feeling engulfed before. I never felt like I was able to be me, to have any independence. When I started dating my wife, she remained distant, partly because of my emotional state and partly because that is her personality. It drove me crazy. Eventually, she began to show more intimacy, and that’s when the real love began. I don’t think I would have been able to put up with the walls she built for too long.

We had an amazing conversation last night. I guess I will start by answering another question. I have NEVER snooped before…until last night. Things just seemed out of place, so I checked her phone for calls or text messages from any unknown guys. I still feel so slimy for doing it. There was only one suspicious name, and that was enough to pique my curiosity. I finally asked her if she was having feelings for another guy. She tried to duck the question, but I persisted. She finally admitted to something. What it comes down to is that there is a coworker who she finds herself being attracted to and thinking about (I termed it a crush). She says nothing is going on between the two of them and she doesn’t even know how he feels. The most important thing is that she would never betray me. She also wouldn’t ever leave me for another man. If she left, it would be because she didn’t want to be with me…not to be with someone else. I may sound gullible, but that is the type of person she is. She said that the role he plays is that she questions how she could really love me if she is having thoughts about someone else. Although it bothers me that she is thinking about someone else, I would be lying if I said I have never done the same. In the end, though, I know it is more of a “grass is greener” outlook, and I know what I have and I know what I want....and that’s to be with my wife.

She told me that her mother asked the real reason she was going to visit, and she eventually said that we were having problems and that she would elaborate when she got home. Her mother was very understanding (like I told her she would be). I hope the time away will help clear her head. She said she really wants to be around family right now, and I understand. We continued talking about why she is feeling this way. I asked how long, and she said a little over a year. It was very small then, but that was the issue with the band, etc. She said that it has just become more intense over the past couple of months. This shocked me because I thought we had a great Valentine’s Day. Recently, she has been at home more, and she is finding herself unhappy. She said that she has been thinking that in the future we would settle down, and she doesn’t know if she can do that. I told her I don’t see anything changing in the foreseeable future, and I am always going to support her in everything she does. As I said before, she’s just not sure if it is being at home, or being with me, or both. I asked my wife if she would be willing to go to a counselor. She doesn’t really feel good about that idea. I then asked her if she discovers that she is not in love with me, will she be willing to work on it, or will she just give up. She really didn’t have an answer. Of course, I wanted to hear that she wants to make this work.

She was so amazing. She answered all of my questions. I was curious where the other guy falls into this. She said he is just a small part of the equation, and that the other issues are dominant. She did get emotional at times, and said that she feels like she is a “monster” for doing this to me. I told her that I only want her to be happy. If that’s not going to be with me, I am willing to let her go. I also told her that the more she tells me, the better I feel. The more I understand what she’s feeling. I am still sad and scared I may lose her, but I am more at ease than if I had to speculate about everything. I also addressed her withholding of physical intimacy. I told her that I know that a physical act does not signify that everything is okay. I am a very physical person, and I am ashamed to admit that. I also told her that I will understand if she doesn’t feel like being physical, just not to withhold for fear of “leading me on.”

One last note about the conversation. One thing that has really bothered me is that she doesn’t seem that affected by things. I called her this morning at work and asked, “Are you as much of a wreck during the day as I am?” To my surprise, she said yes. I feel bad saying this, but that made me feel good. Not because I want her to be in pain, but because it says to me that she cares and is thinking about things. It gives me hope that this can work. The biggest difference is that I feel better when we are together, she feels better when we are apart.

I would definitely be willing to take the focus off of her. I have been thinking about the role I play in this. I learned from my previous marriage that when there are problems between two people, there is enough blame to go around. The key is to be accountable and open to what the other person is saying. I went to a marriage counselor once with my previous wife. She didn’t want to go back because she wanted someone to tell me that I was wrong and everything was my fault, even though she admitted to me that she wasn’t feeling right about the relationship either. So I know this isn’t only my wife’s problem. I have to examine what I have control over and try to accommodate.

I agree that love is a choice…and I choose to love my wife. After my divorce, I was so bitter about the institution of marriage and never thought I would get married again. So when I fell in love with my wife, I knew that we had found true love. That’s why I am fighting so hard. I believe that deep down, she does love me. I just hope she doesn’t give up on us before she discovers this. We have had such an amazing relationship up until now, that I don’t see how we couldn’t make it through this. That being said, if she decides that she doesn’t love me, I will let her go to be happy and pursue her dreams…and I will have to let go of her.

I think I pretty much got all the points of my first try. Thanks for all the advice, feedback and questions LA. This is really helping me to maintain my sanity.

My condolences over the lost post. I hate that when it happens...you seem to have recovered quickly and went on...hope that's true.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good stuff here..."To be honest, I’m not even sure what she would choose." This is great! I believe you're looking at your wife with new eyes, not making assumptions and really considering ENs. Kudos!

I see a contradiction:

"During our conversation last night, she mentioned I don’t share her passion for music (she had a band). I rarely attended her gigs because I didn’t want to go to bars by myself and hear the same songs."

Actions are admiration, also. By not going because of your own discomfort, she feels rejection...which ain't admiration.

"She also felt that when I did go, that I was bored (which isn’t true)." Two things here...she believed you were bored, which is true to her. Know the difference between her truth, your truth and the truth. You DJ when you say "isn't true." Her beliefs are valid because they are hers.

I'm not arguing her truth...it stands...but you said you didn't go often because you'd hear the same songs. What is that if not a shade of boredom? One thing I've learned is to listen to myself...read my words and find my truth. No attack here...you might very well have been bored. There's no wrong in that.

Part of a great marriage is owning your truth and respecting hers.

"She always said she understood, but I think deep down, it hurt her, and I was being selfish for not seeing that need in her." Which need? Would your presence be admiration, attention, support, approval...which need?

"She always knew I supported her, but I didn’t give her that extra lift." You saw support in which way? She saw it in your presence.

Here's the contradiction:
"If admiration is one of her needs, I don’t think that is lacking. I don’t think there is a day that goes by that I don’t tell her she is the most beautiful woman in the world, or how great she looks from her diet (even though she doesn’t need to diet), or how much I love her. The one thing that always bothers me is that it doesn’t seem to matter what I think, it’s what other people think.:

Can you see the contradiction here? If your presence is admiration, then that would explain why she doesn't see it in your words. If she's looking at your actions, your enjoyment, as measurement of feeling admired, then your words aren't her language of admiration.

We may have to determine what our partner's ENs are when they won't...but it won't help our marriage if we then determine how we fill them. You hear admiration...so you give it in audible kind. Makes sense. Unless you're human. Each of us has our languages...for love, admiration, appreciation, attention, etc. Look to see how she attempts to meet your need of admiration and return it in her language.

"I still feel so slimy for doing it." You feel slimy for saving your marriage? Interesting.

Would you stand between your wife and a guy with a knife? Would you feel slimy?

"The most important thing is that she would never betray me." What is your belief? Is having a crush on someone and not telling your H a betrayal to you?

"She also wouldn’t ever leave me for another man. If she left, it would be because she didn’t want to be with me…not to be with someone else." This is what every wayward spouse (WS) has said on the planet. So help me.

Do you know what gullible is? Choosing to believe the unbelievable because it is safer for you. It's death to your marriage, though. See how we choose our beliefs?

Back to the guy with the knife...gullible is choosing to believe he's only there, in your home, to cut your wife's hair with a switchblade. You do not know his truth nor your wife's...but to choose to believe the extraordinary is hiding from yourself. You're a reasonable man with adult choices. You are not defective, broken or wrong. You are whole, complete and marvelously made.

Just in case you didn't know that.

"She said that the role he plays is that she questions how she could really love me if she is having thoughts about someone else." This is another standard WS cope out. Let me translate...

"Tell me why I choose to have thoughts and feelings for another man because it must be something you're not doing."

Her choice. She is denying that she entertains this choice, rolls it around on her tongue and tastes it, examines it and chooses this...you have no control here...can't be the cause or cure of her choices. They are hers. She doesn't own her stuff. Know this. Don't judge, just know.

"Although it bothers me that she is thinking about someone else, I would be lying if I said I have never done the same. In the end, though, I know it is more of a “grass is greener” outlook, and I know what I have and I know what I want....and that’s to be with my wife." You're owning your stuff now...do not believe that makes what she's doing okay. When you entertained these thoughts, did you tell your wife you're not in love with her? Not sure you can feel stuff for her...made it about her, not you? If you did, then you're even. Both stop it. If you didn't, can you see where this road of blaming you for what is hers leads?

"I asked how long, and she said a little over a year." And you call this a crush? Know that she lied to you for over a year. No judgment...knowledge. Her truth now. Lied by omission.

Knowing this, do you choose to believe that she's going home to have family around her and clear her head? Do you believe it is only her having feelings for a co-worker but not a betrayal?

"She said he is just a small part of the equation, and that the other issues are dominant." Do you choose to believe this?

"I told her that I only want her to be happy. If that’s not going to be with me, I am willing to let her go." Would you say this to a cocaine addict that wanted coke more than you?

Is this your truth? That you're replaceable? That you can make another person happy?

"I also told her that the more she tells me, the better I feel. The more I understand what she’s feeling." I believe this is your truth...that intimacy is scary but safer than ignorance.

"I am a very physical person, and I am ashamed to admit that." Where's the shame, Lost? What does SF represent to you? It is an EMOTIONAL need...which one? Where's the payoff for you emotionally?

"there is enough blame to go around." May I ask if you'd be willing to believe that blame kills marriages...ownership saves them? Get used to the distinction...one partner cannot break a marriage without adultery or abandonment. Takes two. Two parts of the three that make up marriage. Ownership, not blame, is what was missing. Big difference.

Another contradiction:
"I agree that love is a choice…"

Then:
"I knew that we had found true love."

If love is a choice, then how do you find it laying around?

This is important for us to understand because of this:
"That’s why I am fighting so hard." Humans base their wants on their beliefs. You want to save your marriage. If you believe it is because this was true love you found, then you'll fail. She can convince you that you may truly love her, but she doesn't love you. Then that gives way to the belief that if coke will make her happy, she should have coke.

None of your contradictions are "wrong." No attack or judgment. You will only be able to act from your beliefs. I have to question those, show them to you, but ultimately, you decide and I respect that.

Welcome to MB, Lost...best place, I believe, you can be. Your sanity is not threatened. Your heart is. Luckily, I believe this is the challenge of your life and you will bloom from this adversity. You will shine. That's for later, of course. For now, you being deeply honest will influence your outcome.

I believe in you.

LA

LA - What do you do for a living and what is your academic background.

You are AMAZING!! I get VALUE from EVERY post.. and not even my own threads..

How are you so insightful with strangers? In tune with dynamics..

Hey, see the disrespect here? I asked you nicely to stop. Really. Please! I'm full...gonna heave and it won't be a pretty sight!

I pay people for a living. Best one I can imagine.

I have two years of college...in Creative Writing.

I am as common as dirt and love being that way.

By choosing to be led by God, he can do fabulous stuff.

Not me, dear McC...him.

Straight honest stuff. I relate what I live, but if you're connecting strongly to it...all him. I'm just the messenger.

Now do you understand why the admiration/appreciation is causing me heart problems?

LA

Lots of things to say here. W had a “Girl’s Night Out” last night, so I was alone. I talked to my parents and told them everything. They were shocked, but very supportive. I almost slept a full night, which I haven’t done in a while. I don’t know if that’s because my mind is calming down, or that I was exhausted.

When W got home today, we talked some more. She is still being very honest. Here is the real story with the other guy. She has had limited contact with him. He is an instructor for some training that she is doing (he is the guy I was suspicious of on her phone…I mentioned his name, she said yes and wondered how I knew. I lied that she had said his name before. Was that wrong? I don’t want her to lose trust right now.) Anyway, they share a lot of common interests. She doesn’t think he knows that she is married (she lost her wedding ring a while ago, and we haven’t gotten around to replacing it because of our financial situation). The week before she told me about her confusion, they were discussing things and he said to her in a playful way, “You should come to where I live. You could start a band and there are plenty of opportunities for someone in your field.” It was then that she wondered why she was even considering it. Therefore, she said that all of the confusion came to a head and I think this was just the tipping point. I realize now (hopefully not too late) that I do have a role in this (not that I denied it, though she still does). I told her that I am guilty of not giving her something that is important by sharing her experiences. She doesn’t want to admit that I am wrong. I asked her if it bothered her that I didn’t go to her gigs a lot, and she said that it did at first, but then she got used to it. I know she doesn’t like me putting so much stock into this band issue, but I think it is very important. There is a reason why that was the example that she provided when asked why she was confused. It’s part of an overall problem with me taking her for granted and not being where she wants me, and her not asking me to do things because she feels selfish. I told her that it is okay to be selfish.

My biggest concern now is that she doesn’t know if she wants to work it out. She said she wants to talk to someone, but she doesn’t want to feel forced to work it out. She doesn’t want to go to counseling because she feels that they are there to help you work it out…not listen and give objective advice. I don’t think she is looking for someone to tell her it is okay to end it, because I have told her that already. I think she wants to talk to someone who she feels doesn’t have an agenda. I don’t want to push her. If she chooses not to love me, why should I try to force that on to her? She has to choose to love me, and we can begin healing. I told her that, if we work on this, I want her to be selfish and tell me what she wants from me. I am willing to do whatever it takes. I also said that I want to be more involved in her life. I just don’t think she wants to hear these things right now.

As I said before, she doesn’t think he knows that she is married. I brought up an example from personal experience. I have had times where I have been talking to a female and I wanted her to be attracted to me. I didn’t want her to know I was married because that would ruin it. I never had any intentions of pursuing anything, but I guess I just wanted to feel wanted. She admitted that this may be a possibility with him. She doesn’t want to tell him that she is married at the risk of ruining any opportunity. Up to now, they have really only talked about work and their hobbies. I am scared that she is forgetting me for the sake of something new. I do think it is deeper because they share common interests. So I’m not sure if she is interested in him as a man, or as a symbol. She has decided that she is going to talk to him about it and tell him she is married. Now that I think about it, this could have disastrous consequences, because if he is feeling something for her, and she admits things to him, what is to stop him from pursuing things? Or if he tells her how she feels, what if she gives up on me? I am trying to be strong and let her come to terms with her emotions, but I feel so weak. All I have been thinking about is what I want out of life. She is #1 for me. I have realized that I do have control over my feelings, but that I WANT to love her…I don’t HAVE to love. But I want her to love me back. I dream about growing old together and having children…and I don’t want to lose that.

I did lose my temper once. I asked her is she was going out tonight. She said yes, but with a different group of friends than originally planned. I said, “And you don’t want me to go?” She said yes. This was very symbolic for me and after a minute of silence I said, “Do you want to sell the house, or are you going to live in it?” I know this was wrong, and I told her. She has been very open and honest and the last thing I want to do is close that door. I said that I just lost my patience, I’m sorry, and it was a cruel thing for me to say.

I am trying not to force her to work on this, but I feel like I am pushing her away.

I also asked about physical contact. As I said, affection is probably my most important emotional need. I think it is between that and sexual fulfillment, but I think that I feel affection and connection through making love, and the fulfillment is not the most important thing. Anyway, I asked her why she has resisted anything (even kissing, holding hands, touching). I feel there are three possibilities (in this case, not always): she doesn’t want to give me a false impression, she is afraid of connecting, and/or she doesn’t feel the need to be close to me. She wasn’t sure, but she said it is probably a combination of all three. This may be silly or selfish, but I find myself trying to remember that last time we made love. I want to remember all the details. I keep thinking of a line I heard before about a last kiss, “You don’t ever think that it is going to be the last time.” That’s how I’m feeling. I think it is especially prominent for two reasons. One, there was morning during the week before she told me about her feelings that she tried to initiate things, but I was half asleep and decided not to do anything. I feel like I may have missed my last opportunity. Two, you remember that I said that she turned me down after a very spontaneous, romantic moment. This is really sticking out in my head…this happened BEFORE she told me how she felt, why would she make love to me AFTER she told me? I hate thinking about these things because I feel like it is the wrong place to focus and that I am being petty. I also hate the fact that our sex life was okay until she started looking at this guy in a new light. I don’t think it necessarily has to do with him, but is a consequence of her feelings being thrown out of whack by that moment.

One more thing I have to get off my chest (this is me being selfish). I have to set things up first. We live in a city. I like living in cities, don’t like small towns. I commute to work in a small town. As I said, I didn’t have a stable job situation. I was on a one year contract (I have a very specialized educational background, so I can’t just go anywhere to work…at least not in my field). I recently got an offer to be hired full-time. She was ecstatic for me and told everyone that she knows. Some of the people she told are people that she works with that helped me to get my initial temporary position. I was happy to take the position, but obviously it would have been awkward to turn it down after her reaction. I don’t mind her reaction. I love that she cares about me. But with our recent dilemma, I am mad for a couple of reasons. One, there would be no logical reason for me to live in the city if I don’t work there because the town I do work in is at least 1 hour away. Plus, as I said before, I don’t really have a lot of friends in this city anyway. Second, the reason why I live where I do is because that is where she is…and I want to be with her. If I’m not going to be with her, I don’t want to be here. I want to move back to where I am from to be closer to my family and friends. With the nature of my new position, I feel pigeon holed for at least one year, no matter what. I hate thinking about this, because I feel like I am concentrating on the negative outcome, but I feel I have to be prepared. If things work out, I guess I don’t have a problem. Anyway, I had to say that.

I know I didn’t answer a lot of your questions directly, but this was top of mind, and very relevant. I may go back later and see if there is anything that needs to be answered. Thank you again for your insights. I’m glad you aren’t holding back. This is a two way street (between me and my wife). I just wish she would recognize it. She is not willing to put any blame on me. So thank you for forcing me to examine myself, not just her.

sorry.. I wouldn't want to hurt or offend you in any way..

we are all messengers to some extent...

Lost,

"I don’t want her to lose trust right now." Would you consider this as projection? That you don't want to lose trust IN her right now? She has lied by omission and you have lost trust in her. Owning that will go a long way to understanding your role and your truth.

Please tell me I'm getting this incorrectly:
"W had a “Girl’s Night Out” last night,"
"When W got home today,"

You really aren't saying that she was out all night, are you?

"She is still being very honest." Okay, look at this judgment from you to you. She is giving you build up...not truth all at once. She is piecing out truth, which each time, highlights the lying by omission. You can't control this, but please be aware of this judgment in yourself to comfort yourself. You have starved for O&H for so long, you are willing to accept this stepping lies. I have no problem with that. I understand. Only please tell yourself your truth. It is the only armor you have right now. Bald light.

"we haven’t gotten around to replacing it because of our financial situation" I trigger to this because this happened to me and was part of a huge resentment I created in myself to justify my A. Not getting around to important stuff may be one of issues in your marriage. I'm not saying it is your fault; again, no blame in marriage--tracing small issues that look big and vice versa, well, it is a tough thing to do. She did not tell the OM she was married...ring or not. Know this.

"I told her that I am guilty of not giving her something that is important by sharing her experiences." Excellent intent to own...you can own that you did not share yourself, know about O&H and "I" statements...but you can't share in her experiences unless she allows it. If you're talking about her gigs, you got it. Other than that, don't step on her seperate and equal status. She owns half of it, 'k?

Here is the critical part, Lost: "but she doesn’t want to feel forced to work it out." She believes she can be forced. The more you own your choices, the better she can she that she can't be forced--human impossibility. She chooses what she does, every action and word...please begin exampling this. Handing back her words and actions as choices is really important.

"She has decided that she is going to talk to him about it and tell him she is married. Now that I think about it, this could have disastrous consequences, because if he is feeling something for her, and she admits things to him, what is to stop him from pursuing things? Or if he tells her how she feels, what if she gives up on me?"

Handing your truth back to you...What if he pursues? By telling him she is married and has feelings for him, SHE is pursuing. Is HE married? That she has been building a relationship with him for a year says that exposing this relationship is very important. See, she is having an EA...she is, Lost. She doesn't want to go to counseling and hear that she is in an affair...that she is actively destroying her vows, because she isn't, in her mind. She's just feeling out a replacement for you. If you are willing to really love her, know that this isn't about you not being who she needs...it is about her trying to fill herself up from the outside with another human and they will NEVER be what she needs...just a replacement after replacement...hard on a lot of people and herself.

You are equal to everyone, Lost. That's how God made us. He didn't make Ms. Rights or Mr. Wrongs. He made humans. You are each other's lesson, and ditching marriage to fix what is inside of us doesn't work. We just pick another person and continue the same lesson, leaving wreckage as obstacles in the way.

You weren't wrong about saying do you want to sell the house when she said she was going out again tonight. Lost, you are a married man. Marriage is the third party...you, her and the marriage. Marriage has a boundary--no sleep overs, no carousing without your partner...you had a gut-reaction to her crossing that boundary. You need to enforce it. This isn't a manipulation. "If you choose to go out again tonight without me, your husband, then I will choose to look into filing for legal seperation on the grounds of adultery."

"She has been very open and honest and the last thing I want to do is close that door." You can't close that door. HER CHOICE.

And she isn't being O&H...she isn't, Lost. (((Lost))) you are being lied to, manipulated and I am so very sorry. Choose only to believe your truth and know that she has starved you so that when she fed you a little truth, that you would believe her. I'm so sorry.

Boundary enforcements are not cruel things to say. They are if they are only threats. You have to define what your choices will be when she chooses to violate your boundaries and those of the marriage.

Until you know that she chooses all of her actions...when you stop buying into her belief that she can be forced, you can cause, control or cure her...then you will be a voluntary victim to her deception. You cannot push her away. She chooses to see it that way, feel it that way. If you are choosing to ask what her choices are, showing them as choices, then you will get out of this trap you both built into your marriage.

That's your choice. Sit down and feel how helpless and powerless you felt when you asked if she didn't want you to go tonight and she said yes. You got that seperate and equal right then and it triggered you into a threat reaction. You know you have no control over anyone. You've believed love was control, commitment made you safe, for a long time. It doesn't. Your own choices of what you believe, your perspective locked onto reality does that.

Stay focused on today...you are working, full time, and you live where you live. Nothing changed in that department. We lie to ourselves about preparing for a future we have no clue about...only guesses. We can't prepare for anything. Know that you have an issue with security, being and feeling safe, and as long as you stay aware of it, hold it, but not act from it, you will be stronger with that self-knowledge.

If your wife keeps you blameless, she has the power. Her lies look more real and have more force. Do not buy into her beliefs. You know you had your part...owning it is power. Know she has her part...choices...whether she owns it or not, that is the reality of being human.

I read all your words and can feel your thirst for honesty, reality and how you feel upside down. You've defined your priority--her and your marriage. Balance that now, in yourself, knowing that your choices can come from your desire to love her and honor your marriage.

Lots of strength for the taking, all around you. Get to know the way you lie to yourself. Don't judge or bash. See all the ways you depend on seeing life to give yourself a sense of safety--which is false safety. These are the lies we all make--you're not bad or wrong. The better you see them in yourself, the more you will hear them from others.

I'm sorry to say that I believe your wife is fully wayward. She has all the signs; the progressive confession, pattern of withholding, fear of counseling, giving you no blame, all her...which means to OM, she's trashing you and making you the cause. I believe they are meeting. You could follow her in a friend's car tonight. Only do this if you know you want truth. If you say all the reasons why you can't do this...know that it is because you don't want to know. I'll understand. Your need for self-honesty is a higher priority to me than your choice of action.

LA

Thank you for your words and concern, LA. Before I go on, I must clarify. When she said her feelings go back a year, she was talking about her confusion with me. She only met this guy a couple of months ago. I know this is a fact because she met him in her training that only began a couple of months ago. I may be lying to myself about a physical relationship. Ever since he made this “proposition” (about moving, etc.) is when her attitude changed. I want to believe that this just triggered her uncertainty, but perhaps more happened than she is telling me. Ever since then, she cannot show me any physical affection. She said that she doesn’t even know how he feels about her…once again, something I must choose whether or not to believe. I do, however, know that these nights out are not with him. She had Friday evening planned for over a month. Plus, he does live in another state (not to say nothing happened while he was here). I plan on confronting her about this once she gets home. I guess I am even more suspicious now because of what just happened. Here I go…

Based upon her actions and lack of commitment to reassuring me, I called my parents last night and told them that I really don’t think this is going to work. I started feeling okay...I had already begun to prepare myself for the worst. Today, however, I was a wreck. I hate trying to be “normal” around her without being affectionate, etc. I gave her a little space and went into the other room. I heard her playing the guitar, and I walked over and told her how great it sounded. She smiled and thanked me. I looked on the bed and she was writing in a notebook. I asked her if she was composing a song. She got a little mad and told said that she wanted to be alone. I decided that I should get out of the house. I went and had lunch and took care of some errands. When I got back, she was gone because she had to go to a friend’s house to get something. I found the notebook and looked at what she had written. They were talking points. “This doesn’t have to be the last time we see each other” “We know this is the best for both of us” etc. Stuff like that. I lost it. I had another errand to run. I left and balled my eyes out. To me, this was just confirmation that it wasn’t going to work. Things built up until eventually, I was pissed. I started yelling. Then, serenity. I guess I got it out of my system. I felt calm. When I got home, she was back. I asked her calmly, “This isn’t going to work out, is it?” She answered, “It’s not looking good.” I lost it again. I cried so hard. I didn’t want to, but I couldn’t help it. I poured out my heart. She put her arms around me and cried to. She said she hated to see me like this…she hates that she is hurting me. I have been thinking to myself, “If you hate it so much, why won’t you work on it.” I told her how much she means to me, how she is the most important thing in my life, how we had love before, and I know we can be in love again, how I know I made mistakes and I wish I could take them back. After everything, she took a bath. After she was done, I told her, “Maybe we should just end this.” She said, “Can’t you just wait until I get back from home.” I am very frustrated with her insisting on me giving her this time alone when she visits family. I told her, “I know what is going to happen. You will go there. Come back and say you want to separate. You’ll realize that you life isn’t much different from what you have now because we lead such separate lives. And then you will tell me it’s over.” I told her that I know I can’t force her to love me, but I can’t stop trying to fight. She said that we won’t be happy if she stays and doesn’t love me. I agreed. I told her that my heart is filled with her, and I just want her to look honestly at her own. If she finds even a piece of love for me, I want her to try. I also told her that I want her to be honest to herself. I don’t want her to stay with me because she doesn’t want to hurt me. I will be fine. Time will take care of me. I am at such a loss right now. I know it’s over. I could never look at someone pouring out their heart, and not know whether or not I loved them. She just doesn’t want to hurt me. If she loved me, she would see how important this is to me, and try to work on it. She doesn’t want to. I don’t know what she thinks this trip is going to accomplish. It’s just going to drive me crazy, because she is giving me that little glimmer of hope. I think she has already given her heart away. I can’t say anything to change her mind. You know what the worst of it is? No more than a little over a week ago, I was such a happy man without a care in the world. A week later, I am on the verge of losing everything I hold dear. I hate being such a pessimist, but why should I build up my hopes only to be disappointed? I find myself feeling like damaged goods. I am not even 30 and will be divorced twice. Who wants to be with that? That would be a red flag for anyone. All I can do is be honest. I want a family, but I’m scared of falling in love again. This hurts SO BAD and I don’t want to go through it again. I am so lonely. I wish I lived around more friends, so that I could be more distracted. You are right LA, I long for security. And I am losing all of what I consider secure. I never pictured my life without her. I imagined us old together, just as in love as I thought we were. I am putting a lot of blame on myself for not working at my marriage before this happened. I took things for granted. I tell myself it is not only me, but I feel like I pushed her away. I will welcome her with open arms if she has a change of heart, but I have to be realistic and stop torturing myself. Thank you for helping me with this. I have discovered so much about myself. I know that I will be okay. This is going to hurt for a long time, but I am sure that every day it will hurt just a little less, until it’s gone. I can’t torture myself with thoughts of her with another man. I hate to imagine her giving herself to anyone else the way she did to me. I have to move past that. I have to concern myself with me, my future and my happiness. Life is never predictable. I just hope I can let myself love again, and find someone who can offer as much love as I have to give. I’ll keep you updated.

Oh, Lost...where to start?

"I could never look at someone pouring out their heart, and not know whether or not I loved them."

You're hurting yourself with your own beliefs here. Lost? What you do, how you experience life and what you believe is yours. Not anyone else's. She can stand there, while you pour out your pain and your heart, and not feel a thing...not because she doesn't love, but because she has piled over her love with lies, deceit, guilt, shame, resentment and a bunch of other clutter that she did ON PURPOSE to get to where she couldn't feel her love for you anymore.

It is what an A is...trying to quickly replace your feelings for one for another. Your belief that is your spouse causing you the pain, the unhappiness, gets you there.

And they're not. You are. Terrible truth to come to, after you have held your weeping H in your arms to own you did that, on purpose. To yourself.

She won't own her stuff...why not own yours?

How much of you is wishful...wishing instead of doing? Feeling like others are in control but you aren't? Looking at the past and future intently, but not the present?

Why would you build up your hopes to be disappointed?

You choose your hope, your beliefs and are messy with them, all over the place. Who are you? What are your boundaries? What are your choices? You chose inch by inch today...based on her possible or probably response. Why not choose differently by your belief...knowing your code and choosing from that?

Look at what gives you the feeling of security?

To be loved? You are. At all times.

Doesn't help you feel it...a feeling can't give you a feeling.

What belief do you have that says you aren't loved...by her, or anyone? Is it misinformation in you...that you crave security because you don't love yourself?

You can plot and plan out life, all the variables, plotting your way into the future with strategy from the past. You can choose to do that...but why? You only control yourself. You are not the cause, control or cure of anyone else...only yourself.

Get respectful, pronto.

Show your choice, your power:
Instead of:
"“This isn’t going to work out, is it?” "
Say
"I read your notebook and hear your choice not to work on our marriage. Your choice not to love me. I believe you have already chosen to end our marriage."

That's ownership. That's respectful.

Because when you phrase it the first way, you are putting it in her hands...and it is not. You have your part and she has hers. By doing that, you got:

"“It’s not looking good.” "

"I hear your choice to commit to our marriage isn't something you want to do. I believe you would rather have your affair than find out why you chose to have one in the first place."

Power, Lost. You have thrown it out like garbage and now are angry, raging at yourself because you don't have any power.

Good news...like gum, it sticks to your shoes. Can't really be thrown out...just can look like it. Choose to know you have a lot to do, a lot of choices, and make them wisely. This is your chance to get to you...to yours whys and wherefores...a joyous future ahead (without any plots necessary)...you can do this.

Do the EN questionnaire for you and her. Do the Love Busters as if you were her. And yours for her. Not about saving but knowing at this point. Busy yourself with investigating real stuff, not the future. Stay present. Hug yourself. Know yourself.

And no, she leaves for family trip, during this crisis, then you can choose to move her out or file for legal seperation. See? Inside you, you do have boundaries. Make choices that enforce those boundaries.

None of those end your marriage...you understand? Without boundaries, your marriage got to this place.

If you will do know everything you know how...and learn a lot in the process...you will feel fantastic about you and your life, regardless if the marriage continues or not. This is about your own personal recovery. Know the present only, Lost.

Stay here. It's nice. It's real. In fact, it is real nice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow - you are right it is as if we are twins! same person married to the same woman...i mean it is freaky. everything from you are an affectionate guy...second relationship...jumping in too soon after the first marriage. W is a musician - writing songs - and stuff about you. you take care of the day to day stuff...she won't let you touch her....she needs space....doesn't want to hurt you. EVERYTHING - its like i am looking in a mirror and it is scary. I hope we win the fight. I love my w more than everything and this is killing me more than i can say. the only difference is our daughter. I would have thought she would think it was worth fighting for for D's sake...and i don't knowif she does.

keep me posted...let me know what works for you and what doesn't and I will do the same.

Right now - she is letting me do more things for her. She asked me to record a song with her last night (we both play) but even that was more like work than fun and intimate. I keep waiting for her to say she is sorry and that she wnats to try...but it never comes. how long do we hang in there with this? how kind a decent can we be until we are all used up?

I'm so glad completelylost posted to Lost2006...I thought I was losing it, mixing you two up.

Whew.

To both Losts...

Plan A is more than just being nice to your spouse...it is redemption, ownership and respect. To have all these involves exposure, self-investigation and learning to stay present with those same three intentions...to redeem your past, own your choices and respect your WW's choices as their own.

We all charted every tiny sign of hope, wrote it down, put it our heart pocket, looked for what we weren't getting back, our feelings rise up, wash over, drown us...we do feel lost. Like we're being erased by our partner's choices...a partner we can't recognize any more.

They changed the dance...I do this, you do that; ebb and flow of our marital life. Now you change the dance with Plan A. We only save our marriages through personal recovery...because then we own our parts and the diligence of our efforts stay focused on us, which ends the crazy cycle of obsessive thinking of the other.

You can do this...know more, read more...change your beliefs and your pain and anger will ease...do not make new resentments in yourself and work on clearing out the old ones.

((((Lost)))))(((((CL)))))

LA

completely lost,

I would never wish this on anyone. I hope things work out for you. I doubt they will for me. She is currently at her parents home, and I am giving her that space. All I think about are all of the good things we have, and I can't see why she would throw those away. I agree we may have some communcation issues to work on, but she has to be willing to work on them...I can't force her...she will only resent me. I haven't been as succussful about giving her the space she wanted. I feel so needy, which I am not used to. Part of me is fighting to keep her, the other part wants to leave her alone so I don't push her away. The fighting part keeps winning. She has been very understanding and has even commended me for the way I am handling this. She said she could not imagine being able to handle it this well...I feel as though I am a train wreck. She always seems so composed. She keeps herself busy and distracted. My mind is constantly working, and no matter how busy I am, it's always in the back of mind. I try not to keep too much hope because it will only devastate me even more if things don't work out. I really miss the simple things. A kiss. A hug. An "I love you". I keep thinking about all of the things I could have done, but I know they are in the past. The only thing I can do is change things in the future if given the opportunity. I'm not the only one who made mistakes, but I can only control my own actions.

One thing that has really helped me is talking to people. I have been calling my parents on a daily basis. I feel like a burden on them, but they are being great. Normally, I hate talking on the phone, but we talk between 1 and 2 hours a day. The better I feel, the less I talk. But when I see something rising up in me, I head it off. It's nor perfect, but it's the best I have. Otherwise, I try to stay busy. This weekend, I have a lot of projects around the house to do. This may sound bad, but I envy you for at least have a child. I just look at that as something that will always be good. You can poor yourself into your daughter. All I have ever imagined is having children with my wife. The thought of not having children with her hurts. The thought of her having children with someone else is devastating.

I know exactly what you mean about that hope...I don't even expect an apology. I just want to tell me that I am worth it, and let's work on this. It sounds like your W is trying. I hope it works. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Lost,

Part of Plan A is knowing you are worth it and realizing your partner doesn't decide that about you.

LA

I know that I am worth it, and I know that WE are worth it. I am trying to approach this rationally. I don't feel as though I can force her hand. I think that eventually, she will come to her senses, I just hope it is not too late. If she ends it, I cannot go through that pain, then take her back because she has a change of heart. I know what I want, and I won't compromise. But if she wants out, she has to be willing to live with the consequences.