Something I've been kicking around in my mind the last couple of weeks is how to help my wife maintain NC.

I realize that I cannot make her keep NC, no more than any BS can make their WS end an affair. In many ways, I can only help her as much as she'll let me.

I do have some ability to check (cell phone logs [online], access to her laptop and most, if not all, of her e-mail accounts). She gave me the access to her accounts, albeit it not happily. Of course, there's nothing stopping her from setting up new e-mail accounts or deleting sent/received mail from the accounts she knows I have access to.

I haven't checked anything but the cell phone in the last week (I checked the cell phone because we're about out of minutes for this billing cycle, and I don't want to go over if we can avoid it). The reason for not checking is two-fold:

1. As indicated above, she can easily defeat my checking.
2. I could see how it could easily turn into an obsession.
3. It didn't do me any good emotionally - either I found something (almost never) and got upset, or I felt "dirty" for snooping.

Ok..so that was 3-fold <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do believe that there has been NC for the last week or so, and it was several weeks prior that the last 2-way contact occurred, that I'm aware of. Also, based on her current demeanor, I'm pretty confident that she's trying to stick to NC. (I've noticed a behavior/demeanor correlation between her NC periods and her contact periods - not 100% correllation, but enough to use as a barometer, IMO).

I've let her know that she can talk to me when she's got the urge to talk to OM, and that I'll even sit and listen without comment if she just wants to get it off her chest. She told me that she can't, because it's just so wrong on so many levels to talk to me about another guy that she has feelings for (like the affair wasn't wrong on so many levels? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). She did mention to me that she was really struggling to not find some way to call him about 4 days before she finally broke down and called him.

So, after a long-winded intro - what's a BS to do? How can I help her with NC? Sure, I could pull the cellphones and our internet connection, but honestly that wouldn't prevent contact if she wants to make it. OM, from what she's said, and from what I've verified, has not been initiating the contact, but has responded to it (not every time). The responsibility for NC is my wife's, I'm just flumuxxed trying to figure out how I can help her when she won't let me.

Is this simply a case where I have to let it run its course while I Plan A? The frequency and level of contact has been decreasing over the last 3 months, especially over the last month, but each contact sets things back. (Of course, that's my opinion - hers is that it lets her get him out of her mind for a bit. That holds about as much water (for me) as an alcoholic stopping at the bar for one drink just to ease his mind or whatever).

Duct tape?

Okay, so that wasn't very helpful. Just the first thing that came to mind.

Do you know the difference between an "ultimatum" and a "boundary?"

When it comes to NC, ultimatums rarely if ever work but boundaries always do.
Mulan

I do (I think) understand the difference, but its something I've been having a real hard time defining. We've been fighting the NC battle for 3 months now, and I didn't get an actual NC letter until a month ago.

I guess where I'm stuck is how to enforce my boundaries? If my boundary is NC, and it's broken, do I simply express my extreme displeasure (without LBing), or do I do something else? That's the real struggling point for me. I know an ultimatum would make my wife do exactly what I don't want her to do, but on the other hand, I want my consequences for my boundaries to be reasonable, and not smack of "punishment" or "vengeance" or "retribution".

I've been struggling with this for 2 months and still don't have an answer that satisifies me. It's very frustrating.

Perhaps the only thing you can do is let her no how much you are struggling. If you can open up to her, without LB, and let her see the pain it causes. I'm in your shoes right now. WW reinitiated contact after a week or more of NC. I didn't do it in the best manner, but I let her know that for me that it was almost worse than the original finding out. At least in the beginning you can justify the WW behavior a little on needs not being met adn things uniintentionally getting out of hand. But after exposure, it is a very conscience choice of her choosing OM over you. Don't know about you, but it killed me. She has since voluntarily entered back into NC again. I never let on that I even knew, just kind of went with whatever she said. She eventually came to me and confessed again. I think the guilt got to her. I have to keep thinking that its the "addiction" thing. I know she is trying even if she fails. Diesn't mean it doesn't hurt though. I also think verbal recognition that she is trying has done a lot for her.

Also would be interested to hear what correlation you see in wife's behavior when she's in contact. Mine has been hard to figure out.

What is the difference between an ultimatum and boundaries? I am not sure and I wish someone could explain it.

I think I have probably given my W more of an ultimatum. Basically, "call him and I will D you". I think I probably mean it too. I am only going to take so much crap - ego, I know, but I am trying to make myself not care. I would actually like to D her now just out of spite - but there are kids and I know I would regret it once the initial pleasure wore off.

Like someone mentioned above, at the end, she was calling him - not vice versa. He has not called her in almost 2 months. As far as I know she has not called him in 5 weeks. I say "as far I know" because she was using public phones to call him at one point - no way for me to find out. I actually think he will not call her again since he knows I have seriously considered telling his W (not a game anymore). This was only an EA and it only lasted 3 weeks. But, she was good friends with him for about 2 years and that makes it harder.

Anyway, I would appreciate input on boundaries vs. ultimatum. I agree that an ultimatum makes them want to do it - but what else do you say.

Well, it's not a 100% for my wife, but if she goes from withdrawn/distant to more open and happy, it can be an indication of contact (it's happened more than once). The caution I would give is to not read into things stuff that isn't there. My wife has been happy and open to me even during NC periods, so it's not a guarantee. But I have seen other posters make similar comments about their WS during withdrawal.

Hey, it was Mulan who told me the difference...

Selfish Demands or Ultimatums are about changing another person.

Boundaries are about changing yourself.

Boundaries in Marriage, Cloud & Townsend. Really get it!! I'm reading it now.

193...you told her what your boundary was...If there was no contact, you would choose marriage; choose contact and you would choose divorce.

That's a boundary. Enforcing it will be rough...you committed yourself to an absolute with the absolute boundary enforcement.

BB...when you calmly, respectfully acknowledge to your FWW that you have no control, cause or cure over her; that you now her choices, feelings and beliefs are her own; that if she chooses to make contact, then you will ask her to move out or file for legal seperation, or whatever it is you need to take to enforce the boundary...keeping in mind, you have no control over her choices, so a boundary is a property line, not a protection from harm...then you tell her the progressive steps and then you must choose to do them.

If you are still in a manipulative perspective...that each of you are responsible for the other's thoughts, feelings and belief, then boundaries won't work. Can't work. You don't have yours and she doesn't have hers. No lines, just flooding all over the place.

Other boundaries...DJs. "When you define, tell me who I am, how I'm feeling, that's disrespectful. First, I repeat what you said when you do that. If you continue, I will ask you to stop. If you choose to continue, I will remove myself from your presence."

Progressive, predetermined...those are boundaries. Not ultimatums. You know and present the other person's choice and acknowledge it. Ultimatums are based on your belief you can make someone else do what you want. Boundaries acknowledge you have no power over others and respect their choice.

LA

Hi LA -

As always, you offer great insight. I do think that I've reached the point where I can accept that her actions are hers, and mine are mine.

I don't want a separation or a divorce, and I don't think that a separation would accomplish much at this point.

I guess where I'm stuck is trying to find the balance between letting her work things through in her time, and needing to be strong and maintain my self-respect. I do believe that she is trying to establish NC, but it is hard for her (as it is for most FWS). The frequency is lessening, and the trend is positive. (I've only been really pushing NC for 3 months now, btw. Don't know if that info helps any or not).

So 2 things come to mind:

1. What can I do, if anything, to help her in this?
2. At what point do I say enough is enough?

I suspect the answer to #2 is entirely dependent on me, and not something that a textbook can answer.

LA~
Thank you for your post... Perfect!

I find myself dealing with the same feelings that Bbird is.
Like Bbird, I don't know if contact is taking place. My FWW has stopped talking about it and shows the signs of with draw and has distanced herself.

I know she needs support to deal with the addiction and I have been reluctant to share with her my feelings and how much it means to me that she share her feelings and we openly together work through this.

sorry about the thread jump Bbird. I just wanted to jump in and thank you and LA for the post.

No need to apologize Dazed. I've followed some of your recent story (I do a lot more reading than posting), and it sounds like you've been a very patient spouse.


I'm with you 100% on this, Dazed. I would love for my wife to open up to me in this area. Even if what she has to say hurts (me), I'd rather she share it with me so we can work through it together.

It's a tough situation to be in (for both spouses). I actually parted ways with our previous counselor because it felt (to me) like he was really pushing me to ask her to leave. He felt that was the only way she would break the addiction, and was trying to get me to move past my fear of losing her if I asked her to leave.

I've already lost her - I'm trying to win her back. As I told LA, I'm coming to accept that her choices are hers, as mine our mine, and I can't control her (and in reality I don't want to). However, I stand by my current decision - which is to take a wait and see attitude while I try to do a good plan A.

There are times that I wonder if my wife is expecting me to step in and make her do things (like NC)....but what would be the point of that? That and I know my wife...that would go over like a lead brick <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're both very welcome, Dazed and Bird...I keep using BB instead of Bird and the two names do not go together in my book without a bad result.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so you both have a war inside yourself, and I think Bird said "maintain my self-respect" is one half, and helping your wives with their addictions.

Well...let's get some definitions. Decisions without clarity for a diaster make. Supposed to attribute that to Shakespeare, but I'm really just making it up.

First, how are we doing on the respect issue, Dazed? Bird? I haven't followed Dazed's story, so no disrespect intended. Do we know what respect is? It's helpful in both directions...self-respect and respecting your wives.

And what does helping look like? If you both are pleasers/fixers, then you are the problem you can correct. Bird already knows from jacking other threads (heehee...he doesn't mind you hopping in at all, Dazed, if in fact, you are) that pleasing/fixing/helping is a form of disrespect and flat out abuse. Not something in your every day information section, I know.

Bird, now would be a good time to share your code, all written out for me, 'k?

I never really know where to start, Daxe...all the stuff I've learned, I can go through, step by step...but that's my experience. When it comes to a BS trying to save their marriage, owning their part in the marriage, and changing the dance...there are so many things that apply and don't, I lose myself.

Let me know what you want from my smorgasboard...neither of you are defective, broken or wrong. Know that first. You are whole, complete, marvelously made and worthy. Period. I know this. When I ask for what you want to work on in yourselves, it is an offering of information, new beliefs which will form a clear perspective. Not fix/please/help.

'k?

And Bird...I almost bought that you really got the hers is hers and yours is yours belief...until the last line of your post. LOL

LA

Here it is, reposted from myStuck in the Fog/Plan A? thread. JustLearning and bigkahuna whacked me upside the head, and I finally decided to try and write my plan/code down, and here's what I came up with:

DO
- Focus on the kids. This means more than helping out with them or paying attention to them when they ask. It means actively looking for ways to interact with them and the activities they enjoy, not just the activities I enjoy.

- Work on me. Fix the problems that I've or others have identified, or continue to fix them. Make me the best man I can be. The husband, father and man that God calls me to be.

- Work on the house. We live in chaos. Our garage is full of junk and unpacked boxes. MP and I both would like to clean out the garage, get it organized, and partition part of it as a retreat for us (the parents) to use - singly and together. There are numerous minor repairs that need to be attended to, as well as lots of household improvement projects that we keep talking about but never get around to doing.

- Meet MP's needs as she lets me. Look for opportunities to meet her needs and work on creative ways to meet them - ways that are uniquely me, but at the same time fulfill her wants and desires.

- Learn to read MP. Get to know my wife the way I should have over the last 4-1/2 years. Learn her body language. Listen to what she says, and how she says it. Understand what she's telling me, and learn to anticipate her requests.

DON'T
- Talk about our relationship. She's not ready yet, and it makes her feel pressured. Let her bring it up.

- Shotgun or push. Actions speak louder than words, but "shoving" my actions in her face, with an implied expectation of reaction from her, cheapens the actions and leaves my motives open to question.

- Don't expect anything. MP has a lot to sort out in her mind right now. Expecting things from her only leaves me open to dissapointment and the resultant anger and bitterness.

- Don't mope. Be happy. I have lots to be happy about it. A good job. A house. Two wonderful kids who need a functional dad. A wife who is still living under the same roof as me. Friends and family, who are standing beside us in our time of trouble. If I have to mope, I can go out to do that.

- Don't hover and don't smother. Don't stand around like an eager young kid pining after his first crush. Don't force myself into the center of her world - let her decide to make me the center of her world by showing her who I am and who I can be, on my own 2 legs without needing someone else to prop me up.

I own my mistakes. I own my actions. I own my happiness. I own my emotions. MP will do as she chooses. How I react to that is my responsibility. I know what my long-term goal is. MP is still undecided as to what hers is.

So there's my plan/code, for what it's worth. I'm trying to stick to it. Unfortunately, I don't see where my code is going to help her stick to NC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Hmm.....what'd I say wrong in the last line? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"There are times that I wonder if my wife is expecting me to step in and make her do things (like NC)....but what would be the point of that?"

You didn't say it wrong...I took you at your word...that you believe you could step in and make her do things like NC, but that you didn't see the point in it. If you can't make her anything, and she can't make her anything, then why wonder about the point?

Okay, this looks like a plan to me, not a code. A code lasts longer than the short time you raise your children, long after your house is fixed, affairs are recovered from and actions are chosen.

Your code would be behind your plan...what created it in the first place:

Standards and Boundaries make up our Code.

They go three ways...

Standards are what you won't allow yourself to do to others or to yourself.

Boundaries are what you won't allow others to do to you with logical consequences.

They have to match. See the three ways? If you don't allow yourself to do it to others, you can't give yourself permission to do it to yourself. And when you do, there are boundary enforcement.

First on your code...being present and aware of your children, which means your relationship with them. Looking for interactive ways for intimacy with them.

You do this not for a specific outcome, but because you believe you are a necessary part of their lives, as they are in yours. You know you matter as much as they do. You have influence. Your decision is not based on their reactions...negative or positive. That's choosing from your code.

Your choice to take responsibility for the house, your dwelling, including the garage, comes from your code. I would think that would be consideration. You want to show your consideration of your environment, care and appreciation for it. Your choice.

Meeting MP's needs, as you understand them, and in the way she wants them met. This would go to your code that you choose to believe you love, and that showing your love to both yourself and her is in meeting ENs. This is how we love when we don't feel it, or feel it in the way we want to. We stay aware of our choice, our actions, and not base them on the outcomes, by not doing them for the outcome we desire. We do them because we believe, and we know we choose that, not others.

We don't do them to get love in return. We don't choose to only love as much as we are loved because we know that judging love kills it right off...may be in abundance all around us, but if we measure, judge and label it, we might be able to feel or know it at all.

We choose to believe we're loved, without evidence at times.

That would be in your code.

Like choosing to listen to MP...your standards is that you don't allow yourself to tune out another human being, nor yourself. You commit to staying present and aware out of respect and love. You listen to be informed, knowing you are not the cause, cure or control of her thoughts, feelings or beliefs. You hear her wants, needs and desires and know that you only have a part in that...not the whole. She is responsible for the have-tos in those, for they are hers. Respectful. Seperate. Equal.

Within this is defining to yourself your intent for your code. If you want to be intimate with your wife, listen and understand her, so that you will be safe from future pain, then you will fail. If your intent is to truly know and be open to another human being, and to be known, you will succeed.

Know your intent.

Your standards say that you do not allow yourself to make demands of others...so you cannot demand relationship talk. Your standard for honesty requires you to volunteer your thoughts and feelings as information; relationship talk is demanding the other do so.

Demands do not make others feel something...they feel it. They feel demanded of. Demands are part of the manipulation intent you want to steer clear of. Requests are voicing your desires, not demanding them to be filled.

Your code may contain admiration...that you hold yourself to speaking aloud (due to honesty) when you appreciate and admire something of another person. This would hold for you to yourself, as well. When cleaning out the garage, you would hold to your code by telling yourself you admire that you are doing, appreciate and enjoy this being your choice.

Minding your expectations are critical in your code. How reasonable is it to expect actions of others to be to your standards, when they have their own? Very reasonable to expect a door to open when you turn the key; for your children to fall asleep at a certain time, yet unreasonable to expect them to do so every night.

To not mope is a great one...because that says in your code, you won't allow yourself to step gratitude--over all that you have or experience. Staying aware of what you have is important in mitigating unreasonable expectations, which often mess your perspective up by focusing on what you don't have.

Don't smother...know from your beliefs that your presence is important. Staying present without manipulation or not in return for an action you desire is key to living fully. You do not have the ability to smother your wife with your presence...she can feel smothered. Know if your presence is your need for attention or your choice to do an act of love by giving your attention.

Your attention matters. Pretend it's a loaded weapon, know what it is, what is means, and be careful where you point it.

Your code, if you choose, may contain the provision that your attention matters...to others and to yourself. Make sure you are giving yourself that attention, mostly through awareness, because you are equal to all others. Your standards would reflect that you do not allow yourself to sacrifice for another or create resentments.

Now...look at all these as boundaries. When MP is not transparent for her time and actions, then that would violate your boundary of honesty. Enforcement has to be progressive...first offense, second, third, etc. I believe boundary enforcements must be predetermined...to not be, then they are reactive and therefore manipulative. Again, your intent matters. And I believe you should lay out the enforcements ahead of time. First offense can be stating your feelings...of distrust, fear or your thoughts, and asking for an amends. Second one can be accompanying her wherever it was she went in the future. You'll have to decide your own enforcements. The ones I had with contact, well, I didn't enforce past the first. I was in a different position.

All of these work with your children, too. Your code may become clearer when you view it in relation to them, due to all the interference and fixation on MP.

You can do this. You are doing this. Emphasizing that you are not allowed to judge her or yourself. Right or wrong. What is is this way...knowing what really is is the hard part.

Isisisisisis...ack.

Think about your code in relation to God's...ten commandments, Jesus' commandments...and see how he doesn't want you to do to you what he doesn't want you to do to others.

LA

LA- there is awesome advice in those responses. Sometimes people tend to get get confused regarding the subject of ultimatums. Boundaries ae tough to understand and how we get them accross can be "tough love" sometimes. Here is how I handled it once. How I handled it.

It is an example only..note how folks disagree in how I handled it!

Good luck with this....standing your ground is not an LB...it is importand for YOU to do this, more so for you, not her!

LA, as always, you have lots of good stuff to write.


Having a real hard time with this one right now. In our MC session yesterday, MP said that she felt I was expecting things from her, and the pastor told me flat out to not expect anything.

One level, I understand that, but on another level, it's frustrating. If I expect nothing, I get nothing (or worse), and I have no hope. I understand the concept of Agape Love, but I'm having a real hard time practicing it 24/7.

Is it wrong to do things that show my love for my wife, and hope that I get something in return? How do you keep a hope from becoming an expectation? If I have no expectations of receiving anything from MP, why bother to work on the marriage?

I feel there is an answer in there somewhere, but I'll be darned if I can find it.

Last night is a perfect example. The pastor gave us some homework to work on for the next two weeks:

1. I pray for my wife before I leave for work.
2. MP prays for me after I leave (or we leave, as we both work).
3. I read one chapter from Psalms to/with her every night.

So last night I asked her if she was ready to do the Psalms, and she said she was wondering if I would remember or not (now keep in mind, from my perspective at least, that I'm the only person really working on this relationship right now).

I got frustrated, and told her that if she's going to continue to dwell on the negatives and the old me and expect me to fail at everything, then nothing I can do from here to eternity will matter one whit, because she's setting me up to fail and in her mind I will fail. Things didn't get much better from there. She said (or, more accurately, I took it this way) that I had a lot of crap from 7 years to overcome, to which I responded that now we're going from focusing on the last 4-1/2 years that weren't good to calling the whole time we've been together bad? Well, that's encouraging.

I eventually told her that I was sorry for snapping at her, and she said she was used to it, and it didn't bother her much anymore. This got me going again, and I told her that I'd appreciate a little recognition that I am changing. The outcome of that was that I shouldn't expect anything from her, and should be making these changes for me because I want to, not to please her.

Frustration galore. I am making these changes for me, but why is it so @#$#@% wrong that I hope they elicit a positive response from her?

What am I doing wrong? She's hanging on to all the anger and bitterness of the last 4-1/2 years and refusing to let it go, and doesn't give a rat's [censored] about how I feel or how hard I'm trying. It's all about her, and I'm rapidly reaching the point where I just don't care anymore.

Right now, if I had my druthers, I wouldn't even go home tonight. I know that's not the right answer, but I'm just very tired of this struggle.

Arrgghh...I'm very frustrated right now. I think I need to focus and pray, and then I'll write my wife a nice little apology note for last night (nothing extravagant or defensive...just an admission that I'm still struggling with unrealistic expectations). This whole thing sucks.

Have I mentioned lately that I hate rollercoasters?

Ahhh, Bird...

"MP said that she felt I was expecting things from her, and the pastor told me flat out to not expect anything."

Just because she believes you are expecting things from her, doesn't mean you are. It is what she believes.

You can stop all expectations for your benefit...expectations are the enemy of acceptance...and be a more present, right now, accepting kinda guy.

She still might see expectations where they are not. They might even be her own...projected on you.

"If I expect nothing, I get nothing" Is this a truth, really? Does God provide a lot of things you didn't ask for? If you had to ask to expect goodness, would your prayers at night be inclusive enough? Detailed enough?

If you expect nothing, then you respect. If you desire your WW's O&H, then you're human. Expecting it is destructive.

You believe your hope is based on expectations? Really? Help me out on that one...

"I understand the concept of Agape Love, but I'm having a real hard time practicing it 24/7." You can't practice Agape Love...you can practice believing it, seeing it, and giving it to yourself.

"Is it wrong to do things that show my love for my wife, and hope that I get something in return?" Not wrong, your choice to be manipulative. Tit for tat...I do this, you do that. How was that working for you?

You can trust what you do not see, correct? We both know how to do that. "If I have no expectations of receiving anything from MP, why bother to work on the marriage?"

If you have no expectations of receiving, and no expectations of NOT receiving...then would you bother to work on the marriage?

"she said she was wondering if I would remember or not" Your wife is not in the present, she is in the past. She is remembering all the broken promises, the promise of time, projects, gifts or acts of service that were broken. Stored up in her...they are her resentments. What she was sharing was that yes, she remembered, was afraid to look forward to it, and then, turned it on you.

Listen and repeat "I hear you were wondering if I would remember. You are very important to me. I want our marriage. I thought about spending this time with you about six times today." Smile.

Instead, you abused her:

"I got frustrated, and told her that if she's going to continue to dwell on the negatives and the old me and expect me to fail at everything, then nothing I can do from here to eternity will matter one whit, because she's setting me up to fail and in her mind I will fail."

All your power, your choice, your opportunity hinged on her. You made it on her and smeared it around. You felt frustration because you ASSUMED she was being negative. Had you chosen to believe her intent was to say her belief...that she believed you would forget, or might forget, then you would not have felt the frustration and buried anger from her being with OM last night.

Own this. It isn't blame. It is for your clarity. You have no idea of your power, your choices. You chose to give yourself permission to react, outloud, while you scrambled for your truth.

Wow...I'm good...I hadn't read this before I wrote about why she said she didn't know if you'd remember or not:

"Things didn't get much better from there. She said (or, more accurately, I took it this way) that I had a lot of crap from 7 years to overcome, to which I responded that now we're going from focusing on the last 4-1/2 years that weren't good to calling the whole time we've been together bad? Well, that's encouraging."

Guess what? My WH was just this way. He stood by his belief that the mountain of pain and resentment was too high. He didn't know until our MC told him he had to shovel it, that it got a lot smaller really fast. LOL.

As long as you give yourself permission to attack back when you believe you are being attacked (and believe, I say this knowing she does attack)...then you will be doing this in every marriage you make. You will do this with teenagers, employers, anyone who gets within your circle. You will mistreat them as badly as you mistreat yourself.

Please, Bird...sit with this. Revoke that permission. Tell yourself, "I am honest and open. I will state my thoughts, feelings and belief, not for manipulation, but because I am an honest and open person. Before I attack back, I will consider her intent and choose to believe it neutral, bad or good. I will also consider if I am believing I'm being attacked when she is communicating her thoughts, feelings and beliefs (which she was), which would mean she was being open and honest, not attacking."

By the time you do these steps, you won't have reacted. You will discern, and then choose your action. No more reaction. No more tit for tat in the blink of an eye.

Sarcasm is abusive. You feel attacked by it, don't do it.

I'm going home now to write to you more.

I'm not attacking you. I bet I sound like I am.

LA

Bird,

I'm home from work. I just took a trip down memory lane...my first thread on MB. Look, tootsie...you got nothing on me in the DJ dept. Whoa. Ouch. Oh, my!! I remember more clearly now. I have lived what you have in that dept...both ways. I am selling you something here...a MUCH better life. I'm embarrassed. Had Just Learning and Pepperband not posted to me, I don't know where I would be today.

Wow.

Anyway, on the drive home, I realized I'd goofed on your thread again...I am also posting this same stuff to DazedandConfused...his WW was over at OM's last night. I got you two confused. I'm old and blonde. Please forgive me.

I can't remember if your wife has had contact or not. I don't think so. Could it be that what you expect of her, to not hold onto that rewritten history because the A is over? If she lets go, she'll have no entitlement, resentment or lack of respect. She will be wrong, defective, offensive, awful, and the source of hideous pain to you. Won't she?

Also, if you are still DJing, she is reliving the past each time. Those hurts aren't resentments, they are PTSD. Each time you define her, tell her she's wrong, she triggers to it.

"I eventually told her that I was sorry for snapping at her, and she said she was used to it, and it didn't bother her much anymore. This got me going again, and I told her that I'd appreciate a little recognition that I am changing." But you're not. You are not listening and repeating, respecting...you DJ'd her in this quote. You chose to react to her statement that you snapping at her doesn't bother her much anymore. You did that. She shared. Your apologies each time you do it, over and over again, dull her senses...justify her defense. Tune you out. That's not respectful, either. It is her truth and you chose to react to it and demand recognition for your changing.

How?

Because you didn't raise your voice?

"and doesn't give a rat's [censored] about how I feel or how hard I'm trying."

DJ to her and DJ to you.

I didn't read why you call your wife Magpie, either. Would you tell me?

LA

Hi LA -

Just a quick response, I'll try to write more tonight. You make some very good points, and I see now where I went wrong last night. I was totally my old self, and didn't even realize it (ok, so I didn't yell, but the basics were still the same).

I've written three apology notes so far today (tore up the first 2). The last one is a simple acknowledgement that I didn't provide a safe environment for her to voice her feelings and thoughts, and that I hope she'll continue to tell me what's on her mind and I'll continue to try to give her that safe environment.

And no, I didn't view anything you wrote to me as an attack. On the contrary - it was a very revealing disection of what I did wrong, and how to not do it in the future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Magpie is the user name my wife picked for herself. Part of it was because of my user name (brokenbird, which in itself is a reference to a online name that I normally have), and partly because, according to her, magpie's tend to flit around from object to object (I think that's what she said...it's been a while).

She used to post on here, but hasn't in a long time. She was talking with one or 2 of the FWWs off the forum, but that didn't last long. Don't know why it stopped.

Thanks for the info...would you mind posting your apology note before giving it to her?

Look forward to more when you have the time.

LA

Some thoughts on the original question of how to help WS with NC:

Since an A is a form of addiction, you need to help wean your W from her addiction by making deposits to her love bank, no LBs, meeting as many ENs as possible, etc.

It also reminded me of an AA acronym: HALT. An addict is more susceptible to a relapse if they are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. See this link for more.

So if you concentrate on establishing the conditions that reduce the likelihood of her having those feelings, she might be less likely to feel the need for contact with OM.