brokenbird,

How did I miss this thread? Very good one. I apologize, but i don't have time to read through all the replies, but I wanted to share something that worked really well for me (FWW) and my H. We took a week-long trip to the dominican Republic!! No, we couldn't "afford" to take it, but we did, and we'll pay for it later. But I'd rather pay for a wonderful trip, than a divorce. Agree?!

We went during the 3rd week after d-day, and I honestly believe it saved me from breaking NC, and also from wallowing around in withdrawl and the fog. Dr. Harley sometimes recommends a 3-week long vacation for some couples who are having a difficult time during the withdrawl period.

You've probably overcome this by now, or think this suggestion is nuckin' futs, but it worked for us, so I just wanted to share.

All my best,

KJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> (My son just made me put that face there!)

I agree. Great thread. Glad it got bumped. I just re-read an email I sent to WW - I know LA, talk don't write. I was so full of things I wanted to share that we were not getting the time on the phone to share. I couldn't wait anymore.

So I re-read my note after reading this thread and saw places where my child or my head or whatever it is that filters my true intent got in the way of my heart speaking. If that makes any sense.

There were spots - not many, I did a pretty good job - where demands and expectations were implied. I had alread sent it so I'm following up with another note to say that I realize that demands and expectations are present in this letter but they are not part of my intent. My intent was to relay invitations, desires, requests and personal boundaries. As well as thoughts and feelings.

Actually that's not true. My intent at the time was more selfish. The words probably accurately captured my intent AT THE MOMENT. But a day later I settled back down and got back to the truth and the intent that I've been living in most of the time. I guess intent changes. Situationally. Goal is to keep it consistent. In line with my standards and boundaries.

Just rambilng.

Hi KJ -


I agree completely. MP (my wife), last time I asked (a couple months back) was not ready for any get-away weekends. I think that might be changing, and I'm beginning to plan something for our 5 year anniversary in July.

Personally, I'd love to take a week to spend with just her - no kids, no distractions. We haven't had that since our honeymoon (one of the things I still struggle with is that she had planned to spend 2 weeks with OM over New Years - fortunately it was only 4 days).

Quality time (think Chapman's 5 Love Languages) is probably the thing I want most, and the thing I get the least. Due to a lack of family in close proximity and the 8 year age gap between our kids, getting a week together is near impossible, but a weekend is do-able. I figure I'll make the plans, get someone to watch the kids, and then present the idea to her. If she says yes, great. If she says no...well, I'm learning to not expect things and handle disappointment better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well, if by overcome you mean my wife is in NC, I think so. It helps that OM doesn't want anything to do with her (since she wasn't willing to go for a 3rd visit, or even really be much of a friend for him according to him). And she is committed to trying to work this out, so that's a plus. But I still want my quality time with her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the input.

MDC -

I've read some of your threads, but can't remember if I've posted on them or not.

Yes, demands and expectations are hard to get out of our system. We're programmed from birth with demands and expectations, and our culture reinforces that (we have a right to be happy, we have a right to nice toys, etc.).

It sounds like you've got a better handle on your expectations and demands than I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope things continue to go well for you. Feel free to ramble all you want - I get at least as much out of reading other threads as I do from posting.

MDC,

I'm sorry, but your post cracked me up. You sound so much like me at times, rambling on and on, speaking every thought that enters your head, contradicting yourself, then correcting yourself. I hope that doesn't sound offensive, I don't mean to be, but then that's another thing I seem to be good at on this fourm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If your e-mail to your W was anything like this post, I'd take LA's advice and talk f-f with her, or at least via telephone. Again, please don't be offended.

Later,

KJ

MDC, my friend...I say..."Ramble On"~Led Zeppelin, 1970... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

brokenbird,

I really hope she agrees to go. I know how that babysitting thing goes, we have no family near us, but my H called his mom, and she drove 5 hours to stay with our kids for a week. She's the only one we have to rely on for any length of time. I thank God for her. I do believe shorter trips will help too, maybe do them more frequently? My H and I are committed to trips w/out kids now, hopefully at least every 3 months. It was very hard for me to leave my kids for 7 days, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if it means saving my M!!

About your need for quality time together. This can encompass so many of Harley's EN's - conversation, rec. companionship, affection, SF. Have you guys completed the EN Questionnaire yet? Maybe your wife would be more willing to spend "quality time" with you if it included meeting one or more of her most important emotional needs. What's her definition of "quality time"? Just some thoughts for you to ponder.

The stuff about her OM is sure good news. Mine has never contacted me since d-day #2, so that's a good thing too.

Take care,

KJ

BB - thank you for permission to ramble. Glad to know you're following my sitch. Feels good to be known.

KJ - I laughed when I read your post. No way - not offended. I laugh at me too. Especially when I catch myself in my OWN BS. Writing is my Jimminy Cricket. Especially on this board where I KNOW I'll be called out for frontin'.

My email was clean and careful. This board is where I think, gather and explore. Thanks for participating in the adventure!

BTW - why did you say that about yourself - that you're good at being offensive? Coming from the school of LA I have to call DJ.

LA - you've created a monster.

Mrs. W - big fan of Zep. Sang that line in my head AS I was reading your post. Thanks for that... It was fun!

KJ's suggestion rocks...I did a four-day get away to the mountains in the middle of his decision time, still contact, and it mattered; made a difference. He recalled, through the haze, how much he enjoyed seeing new things with me...was like a mild light-bulb moment, when all he could see of me was a dark monster...involved a lot of winter majesty, massage oil and relaxation cds...and a private hot tub.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like KJ, that trend lasted...committed to trips for us...(after recommitment) included Las Vegas, Durango, and a complete Rocky Mountain tour...oh, and latest one, South Lake Tahoe...we're mountain kinda folks...except for the SoCal reunion trip for a weekend...

And no, your hard-headedness didn't make me blink...your posts got by me...

How are you doing on stopping the self-bashing? Do you believe in LBs to self?

Your wife was right on about how it hurts to see someone you love bash themselves...and it is twinged in fear...is this what you expect of her to do to herself? If you're doing it to you, you'll...well, you know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay, check in on wanting remorse from MP...

"Which leads to another fear. One way to protect myself is to remove myself. Which is contrary to what I want the most."

When you go to the extreme solution first, then you know you can work back towards the middle solution because you've defined the 180 from where you are...you realize you want to be protected from any infidelity in the future--too hard, too painful, downright annihilating--now, as an adult, can you be protected from any chance of infidelity in the future...whether you stay with MP or not?

Now, boundaries...when you know what actions you are willing to take yourself, for yourself, then I bet your fear of MP's remorse or action will settle down to a reasonable concern, instead of abject fear.

Why have you not removed all gifts from OP and MP during that time? That t-shirt was yours...a gift holds no obligation from the giver...if it did, it would be loan.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Burn it. If you have others from that time...guilt-gifts, burn them. Cards, letters, anything...keychains...anything. You trigger enough, why add to it? More self-bashing in a really sneaky way?

Demonstrate through ritual how important this is...then MP will see you're serious. Have boundaries...and self-care.

Why hold MP to expectations you fail to meet yourself?

Why should she be more sensitive to you than you are to you?

The more self-care and awareness you show, and stop with the self-bashing, the more self will trust you to know your fears...bring them to mind...getting safe for others means getting safe for self...eliminating LBs goes both ways...you can do this. There is nothing in you that punishment will keep you from doing...wouldn't you rather be safe by choosing your actions from your code, which is self-love, than from fear of self-punishment?

One worked well as a child...you're an adult. You don't like to cause harm, you've had a lot more experience than your fearful inner child...you can trust yourself.

I'm going with why forgive her when she isn't repentant? She's present in your life...you are fighting to have a recovered and wonderful marriage...there is a time for forgiveness, maybe not yet. Until NC, then you would be forgiving nothing, would you?

Three legs of forgiveness...someone owns what they did; they commit to not doing it again, and then you forgive them. If they are no longer present in your life, and they wouldn't own up, but by their absence, they stopped recommitting the crime against you, then forgiving them is reasonable, gentle to your soul...and yes, blessed.

However, if they are present in your life and won't own or stop, then forgiving them is harmful to you...so boundaries come into play, not expectations...if your boundary is that you'll only be half of a two-person marriage, then you would have to remove yourself from one that your spouse continued contact, because that leaves three people, and your wife putting someone else ahead of your marriage...

I believe in re-exposure with every contact...updating everyone on contact...because it does continue the affair. Does not mean that you continue to broadcast your woes...but share the truth with each contact...this is a boundary enforcement...not retaliation, unless your intent is to retaliate...

You've got a lot people in your corner, BB...you're not alone and you're growing so much...

LA

MDC,



Apparently I'm only offensive to BS's. Stay tuned, it'll happen again!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> But thanks to people like LA, I'm getting MUCH better at ignoring "those" people.

How are you today by the way? Looks like you're getting some awesome advice. Got that trip planned yet?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KJ

Gee...I'm behind in my thread again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do have repsonses to post, when I get a few moments.

However, I do have a specific question/request for LA:

I have received lots of great and awesome advice and insight from you over the last few months, LA, and truly appreciate it. I've read your story (both your original thread and what you posted on 2BNormal's thread), and your experiences and learnings may benefit her.

I've mentioned you to my wife (MP). She hasn't been on the forums since late Jan (I think), and I'm not sure I can get her back on them (at least not right now...she got beat up really bad). So my request/question is if you might be willing to speak with her via e-mail? I would not be involved in any fashion, and would not expect or want you to give any feedback on your conversations with her.

I realize this is a big request, and I apologize if I've overstepped myself. If you are willing, I'll post her e-mail address until you get it, then remove it.

If you are not willing, I completely understand and will take no offense. (See - no expectations here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At least this time).

More replies later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi KJ -

Ok...trying to catch up (again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Still trying to figure out logisitics for the trip. If we actually make it down to see her dad this summer, we can leave both kids with him for a couple of days and get some time alone. DD is too young (for our comfort) to leave with grandparents for an extended visit, but she won't be 4 forever <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I hate it when I miss the obvious questions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't know if I've ever really asked her what her definition of quality time is....or if I did, I certainly didn't bother to listen to her answer. I think it would benefit us both to determine what we mean by quality time. I know, based on what she says, that she feels the only thing that makes time quality time in my book is measured in days away from the kids, which is very hard to achieve. I can see how I've given her that impression, and need to expand my scope for quality time. Finding out what it means for her, and what needs of hers I can meet during QT, is a great place to start. Thanks for pointing out the obvious <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Alas, despite what he says, he keeps contacting her on a very intermittent basis. Which is why everytime she tells me he wants nothing to do with her, I tell her that I'm sorry, but I've heard that song and dance from both of them way too many times in the last 6 months to take it face value.

The interesting thing about the last round (an e-mail that she replied to), is that he set up his server to automatically delete any mail from her, and send a non-receipt notice with the reason (it was deleted). Sounds to me like he's playing some sort of game.

I would love to intervene directly (and legally, if the option was there) with him, but until she firmly commits to maintaining NC (which includes not responding to his contact attempts) I won't. I've told her in the past that if she is committed to NC, and he doesn't respect it, then I have no problem stepping in and telling him to get lost.

There are days when I contemplate contacting OM anyway and asking him why he insists in meddling in our marriage (and yes, I view any contact as meddling at this point), since a) he was my friend and b) he went for almost 2 years being legally barred from seeing or interacting with his kids, so why would he want to put another man - or more importantly other kids - through that?

Yes, I admit it - I have absolutely no respect for the man anymore.

Thanks again for your inputs and advice. (And I don't find you offensive at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

LA -


I've self-bashed (to one degree or another, for one reason or another) for so long that I'm not even consciously aware of everytime I do it anymore. I've always found myself to be a great target for humor - kind of the self-deprecating kind.

I don't think I've ever explored the concept of LB's to myself (though I'm relatively new to the whole LB concept). I guess one can LB oneself....which leads to the logical question does LB'ing onself have the same consequences for self that LBing another person does for them? And since LBing another person has consequences for them (and you), how does that translate to LBing oneself? Double consequences? Or consequneces for yourself, and those around you?


I'm guessing consequences for yourself, and those around you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I'm good at extremes - just ask MP <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And no, I cannot guarantee protection for myself from infedility in the future - either MP or someone else (heck, I can't even guarantee it from myself. I have learned how weak the flesh really is, and I've seen too many stories about revenge A's by people who thought they'd never do that.)

So I put boundaries in place - I won't be one of three. That's all well and good, but I can see where I could wind up living a life of continual betrayal (not saying that will happen, just taking things to another extreme).

Accepting what one cannot change is something that I used to be pretty good at. Somewhere in the last 5-7 years I seem to have lost that particular skill. I wonder if my duck's back is still under warranty, or if I have to get a new one for the water to roll off? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Corollary to boundaries....if I have boundaries derived from my own code, those things I will not do to others and by implication will not allow to be done to me, perhaps that will lessen the chance of it happening to me? I.e., MP's stated that she felt that I did not want our marriage, and did not care for her or love her, so why should I care if she had an A? If operating by my code shows love and care, and a strong comittment to not doing things that hurt others, then wouldn't that increase the likelihood of others respecting my code and not hurting me? Is that what you're trying to say?


There are a number of things that have been gotten rid of. I don't know why I hung onto the T-Shirt, since I refuse to wear it. I was, recently, thinking of hanging on to it for when we fully recovered, as a sign of what we were able to survive, but that's probably not a good idea.

To get rid of everything...if I took it to the extreme that would be everything related to the trips - including clothing, books, even some stuff on the internet. Anything involved with the trips, even if it existed prior to the trip. Bit extreme, isn't it? To go all the way, wouldn't that include MP? Which is rather counter to what MB promotes, and what her and I are working towards <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Big example...her wedding ring. I have no idea if she wore it while she was there, or while they were intimate (my guess would be yes). I almost made her leave her ring when she left for the 2nd trip, since I fealt it would be hypocritical to wear her ring while she was purposefully going to another state to screw a man who was not her husband. Yet the ring is part of her, and she would feel naked without it (it was gone for a couple weeks recently getting a stone replaced).

Of course, I have a past regarding voyeurism, which makes me feel hypocritical at times. Yes, it's in my past, and will stay there, but it's still something that I did. I think, even though I've apologized for that, and the things that were done (pre-A) to meet that perversion, it's still a stumbling block for MP, and plays a role in making it hard for her to move forward. I can justify 100 ways to Sunday why this A was different than previous situations (which, in reality, were affairs, no matter how I may want to spin it in a lame human effort to save face), but...there's more there, but I'll need to stew on it a bit to put it in any coherent format.


Good point. In other words, why respect someone who doesn't respect themself? If I'm hearing you correctly, the whole point is if someone doesn't respect themself, what guarantee do you have that they will respect you? Sure, you can't make anyone respect you - but you have the option to remove yourself from someone's life if you fear they will not respect you.

Ties in well with your Owning Your Villages thread (which I still need to do).



Well...yes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But that requires a huge internal re-write of 36 years of compiled grey matter software <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Not an easy process....perhaps my focus on MP is a defense mechanism that enables me to not face my own problems?


Ok...this makes sense. I'll try looking at it from this angle going forward.

Hmm...this thought just popped into my head. I'm still awaiting forgiveness from MP for what I did wrong....I've done the first leg (owned up to it]; I'm doing the second leg (not doing those things again, or trying not to)....

At that point, the ball is in her court, correct? She has to recognize the second leg, and believe it - which is on her timetable, not mine, right?


Our exposure was so half-hazzard and disorganized the first time around...MP probably did half the exposing herself. I'm not sure how to go about re-exposure. I'm reluctant to do a full re-exposure because it is very intermittent (with a downward trend), and her honesty and transparency is on an upward trend. In other words, I'm willing to continue to extend grace for now, while simultaneously letting her know that contact of any sort is hurtful to me.

I know - not quite MB principles, but it's the point I'm at.


Guess it would help if I got in my corner too, wouldn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate your advice and wisdom...I'm pretty sure I've grown...I can feel the pain from it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As with everything in my life, I'm impatient...this time with me. I want to be fixed and whole and perfect now, not later. I used to be a patient person.....maybe I'm some sort of weird inverse personality...most people get more patient the older they get...I seem to get more impatient <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LB's to self...

Drains your own love bank...for self, doesn't it? Can feel as if others are doing it to you...or make your ENs unfillable?

Hmmm?

Laughing with yourself...nearly celebrating the hilarious things you think and do...not shamefully but joyfully...loving the humor and you seeing it and acknowledging it is great...self-put downs for others' laughter at self's expense...well, that would suck, huh?

I hear you on the lifelong self-bashing is like white noise...time to heighten the awareness of what you do say to yourself, don't you think? Your wife is worth listening to...and so are you...on the inside.

"MP's stated that she felt that I did not want our marriage, and did not care for her or love her, so why should I care if she had an A?" All waywards say this...it is part and parcel for giving themselves permission...

What if MP isn't feeling love because she wasn't giving herself love? You can't control that, can you? You will learn enough about yourself so that betrayal won't keep re-occuring to you...you know more now than you did before...and you're willing to build on that, stay aware of yourself...how about love yourself a little?

Yes...when you choose to act from your code instead of react to others, then the enmeshment doesn't take place...and if you're willing to get to know your true self, meet your own ENs, then your love comes from within and spills outward...you're abundant in love (which you already are and don't know it yet) and the love returns ten-fold...not from earning it, either...

Loving by choice does that...you meet MP's ENs because you love to love...not giving to get...

Getting rid of everything A-related...including MP? Inanimate objects don't change...people do. 'Nuff said.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Minding your symbols IS minding your power...what is within your control...somethings don't trigger...my WH put curtains up in his separate bedroom during A...I only remembered those curtains as part of that time over the weekend...no, they don't have to go! LOL I like them. I was grateful he did that home improvement, which then took me back to think of when...and I shrugged...he has good taste.

Pick the symbols that matter...like that t-shirt. You're right...holding on to it for later is a self-destructive move...you want a badge of remembrance for later? You'll have enough on the inside, in each other's eyes...do not look for forget-me-nots...'k?

Pick your symbols wisely.

Wedding rings...taking them back matters...they are yours and hers...they were never and can never anyone else's.

My H had a past for voyeurism...carried shame...wasn't what he thought it was...perversion...it was fear of intimacy...it was objectifying due to constant fantasy as self-comfort...coping skill instead of a living skill. You're not alone.

Owning all of it matters...to you and to your marriage. Counseling helps...getting to know it from its roots matters. Your choice.

Almost on the respect issue...We can only build our own self-respect, through our choices...our own effort and awareness. God's design. Interestingly enough, the more you build your own, the less you require others to respect you, and the more they do.

Go figger.

It's a marvelously mysterious design.

"But that requires a huge internal re-write of 36 years of compiled grey matter software Not an easy process....perhaps my focus on MP is a defense mechanism that enables me to not face my own problems?"

BINGO!! BINGO!!! You have a FULL CARD! (I dunno...I haven't played since childhood.) Give the man a cigar! This was true for me...funny how on the surface, living externally (through others) looks like us being too intimate with others, when in essence, it keeps us from being truly intimate at all...because we distract from self.

And you don't have problems! You have self...wonderful, marvelous self in there, just dying to meet you, be embraced and owned...where you believe you have problems is in that false self...the self-image...the self you created to earn love and be safe. Ditching false self is your goal...because you were recreating God's creation...kinda negates him, huh?

" I'm still awaiting forgiveness from MP for what I did wrong....I've done the first leg (owned up to it]; I'm doing the second leg (not doing those things again, or trying not to)....

At that point, the ball is in her court, correct? She has to recognize the second leg, and believe it - which is on her timetable, not mine, right?"

Yes...and you've owned and stopped...so you can self-forgive, 'k? I'm still waiting on forgiveness from DH...and I don't worry about it because that's on him...I've done my parts...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(He's having a hard time internally because he believes forgiveness is permission to recommit the crime...he's working on it)

ROFL! Yeah...if you got in this corner with you...I think we'd all benefit! LOL!

"I want to be fixed and whole and perfect now, not later." You are exampling how impatient people step over the first step because it looks to small...and then all the rest of their steps don't take them where they thought they were headed...'cuz they stepped over the most crucial first one...

You ARE whole, complete and marvelously made. You are not broken (you can use that screen name, doesn't make it so)...you are not defective. You are not a problem to be fixed...people fixing is abusive...yes, even to you...

Getting this belief firmly cemented in place is CRUCIAL for understanding, accepting, appreciating, loving and knowing your marvelously created self. Don't dis God...you'll regret it.

You aren't a pervert, mal-formed, dirty, sin-filled or wrong. You are a human being...separate and equal to everyone on this planet...without a word spoken or an action taken. YOU ARE.

Now, continue stepping...and I'll see you on the Villagers thread...

MUHHAAHAHHAHAHAAA

LA

Bird -

You're getting great guidance from LA here...

I've got to chime in on the shirt. Just the word "Shirt" is a trigger for me. LA's right - pick your symbols. This one is good. Do you know why? Because a cotton shirt burns REALLY well when doused with lighter fluid. A VERY satisfying burn.

I tourched one OM gave WW that reminded me of their encounter together while I was convalesing in the hospital from heart stress - due in some part to the affair! Ouch. So I burned it.

I burned it without hate or anger. It was weird, actually. I felt relief, power and pride. Self-love. It was important. I lerned how important and powerful symbols are.

I told WW about it and though she called me "dramatic" for burning, it was a way of letting her know how important and powerful the symbols of her A are to me. Maybe they will be the same to her.

Fire it up. Extra credit if you get your WW's agreement to do this. If not, OK. Tell her why it's important to you and do it anyway. Then share with her how it made you feel. It's a BIG deal. Believe me. You're taking something back when you do this. Not sure what. LA probably knows.

Hi LA -


Hmm....for some reason, I've been thinking of the LB as something that other people put deposits in...never viewed it as a regular bank account that I could make deposits into. Interesting twist - thanks for pointing it out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


What if MP wasn't giving herself love because by my actions she felt that she wasn't worth loving? Yes, I know...I can't control that either. Just a thought that popped into my head.

You can probably tell that I'm still struggling with the separate but equal thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still feel a responsibility for others - in that my actions can and do affect other people. I can see this (still) in the aftermath of my mom's suicide. Yes, it was my mom's choice, and I'm not responsible - but I hold myself responsible for my actions that may have (and probably did) contribute to her decision.

How does operating from my own code free me from responsibility for the affects my actions have on other people? To say that pesron A's reactions or feelings to something I did (or didn't do) is to, IMO, duck responsibility for my action/inaction.

If we're separate and equal, then why bother to protect people you love (or even those you don't)? Even though MP betrayed me, there are many instances where I would love to have a man-to-scum talk with OM (at the very least) about some of the things he said to her, the manipulative things he tried, and all the crap. If the A was her choice (and his), and MP and I are separate and equal, then I shouldn't care about the fact that OM tried to hurt her (in my opinion)?

A bigger example. I spent almost 7 years in the US Military. I was fully prepared and willing to go into harm's way, and even give my life, to protect both my shipmates, and my country, and preserve our freedoms - for people I will never even meet.

Perhaps I'm too wrapped up on the "separate" part of separate but equal?


I'm not even sure where the shirt is now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think it may have made it into the Good Will bag.

As for the wedding rings....hers specifically...if she wore it while they were intimate, it really needs to go. It's been soiled irreparably in my eyes. Kind of like when God told the Israelites to take nothing, not even the gold, that had been used for idols in the land of their captors, for it was tainted.

Ideally, when we're recovered, I'd like to replace her ring with a new one. Maybe melt the old one into a statue of a rude gesture and mail it to OM, with my compliments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, it's her ring....so I'm not sure how much say I have in the matter. Perhaps it's a decision to be made together, down the road.


I've been thinking about this lately. I wonder if this pervision was actually driven by a fear of intimacy on my part? That is something I will bring up with MP - there's some supporting evidence (from my point of view) for that, which I'd rather not share. How bizzare...how can fear lead to a perversion of God's design?


I think one of the things that keeps my self-respect down is my desire to not cross over into arrogance. Self-confidence is, in part I think, derived from self-respect, and self-confidence can lead easily into arrogance. Mabye?

Or perhaps I have this huge unrealized need for external validation? That I'm not a person of value unless others tell me that?

Or maybe I'm just a typical guy who needs his ego stroked on an hourly basis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Back to the self thing again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So by truly knowing (and accepting) myself, only then can I be truly intimate with someone? In other words, I can't share with others what I won't share with myself?


I suppose forgiving myself is part of accepting and acknowledging myself? I have yet to forgive myself...which is kind of unfair to God, since I believe He has forgiven me, and last I checked I was nowhere near being even equal to God, let alone above Him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Ok....confused again. People fixing is abusive, but yet there things that people do that are wrong and need to be fixed, right? Am putting two separate things in the same hat here? People vs actions?

This journey is an interesting one...sometimes I think I get the picture, then it goes all gray or black again and I'm confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MDC -


Most definately agree with you. LA is a godsend to these forums and the people's lives she's been able to touch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Picking symbols is hard...there are so many things that could be triggers for me....some of the things are easy to get rid of....others are harder because they're things that I like or enjoy (as in activities or hobbies, books, movies, that kind of stuff).

If I start picking and choosing, part of me feels like I'd be setting up a double-standard. I.e., this goes, but that stays because I like it kind of thing.

Something to think about some more, I guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA -

I wanted to come back to something you posted:


I had an interesting thought at work this week (at 3 AM on little sleep) that ties in with this.

I had to fix a bug in our production envrionment, and was working on some code that I wrote 3 years ago. The code was fine (the bug was caused by a change to something that my code interacted with), but when I got into it to make the fix, I started looking at what I had done 3 years ago.

I realized that if I had written that code now, I would have done it differently. It would have been more streamlined, and more efficient.

So what does this have to do with anything?

Simple. What I wrote 3 years ago was good, and it worked. I wrote the code then to the best of my ability, with the skills and knowledge I had then. I've learned a lot and grown my skills in the 3 years since, and would do it different now.

It doesn't invalidate what I did 3 years ago.

Same thing I'm beginning to realize with self-growth. I know more now than I did 6 months ago. Sure, I can look back 6 months and say "Gee...that would have worked better if I had done <whatever>, rather than what I did."

I can't change what I've done - but I can build upon it. Accept it as part of who I was then, and use it to shape (positively, I hope) who I will be today and in the future.

Long post, simple point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> To beat myself up incessantly over what I did in the past is to stay tied to the past. There is no growth in saying "Wow...I was a complete idiot back then" over and over.

There is growth in saying "Wow...that wasn't the best way to do that, and now I know better ways to do that," and going forth and doing so.

Of course, I'm still trying to figure out what all those better ways are...or at least learn and apply them successfully <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for listening and giving feedback.

Answering your second post first...

'Cuz it's AWESOME!

Yes, Bird...YES! How beautifully put, too. Now, if only you would lose the self-DJ of "long post, simple point"...every word you wrote was necessary, had impact.

Wow.

Thank you for that post...

Back to your regularly scheduled beating...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(((Bird!!)))

I feel joy when I see you post. Thank you.

"What if MP wasn't giving herself love because by my actions she felt that she wasn't worth loving?"

Are you REALLY that powerful? See why I don't permit myself any what-ifs or if-onlys? They are from my inner child, wishful and wondering...about something I am disrespectful to consider.

The way you love matters...to you and to her. Your control ends at you, along with your choice. You can love with abundance, and she may feel empty...that's hers...from childhood and resisting lessons. You have no control.

If you choose to love, because it is your choice, your joy, your purpose...then you will respect her to love as a choice, herself and others...act from her code...she's fully capable, knowledgable...all her choices. Respect that.

The way you love includes knowing her stated ENs (no assumptions), and finding the reward of your acts of love in themselves...and her reaction as a gift.

She will have to get to where she loves and accepts herself by herself...do not treat her as defective...she isn't. The more you know and respect that fact of creation, the better you love and accept yourself...then you have done all within your power and the rest is up to her.

"I still feel a responsibility for others - in that my actions can and do affect other people." We have no control, we have influence...yet even this influence is only when others allow it upon them. Your WW shut out your influence, replacing it with someone else's during her A...that's the annihilating part...so know that her choice to allow your influence is hers. You still believing you are responsible for others...choosing your actions based on possible responses instead of your code will reinforce to yourself that life works better when you exert control...instead of act from your code, living in your truth. You teach yourself what your wife thinks, feels and believes is more important than what you do.

Tough to get the separate and equal when you are believing something else, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where's your payoff in being responsible for what you are not? It feeds you...narrow it done...find what ENs and what fantasy taking responsibility for what you cannot possibly be responsible for (you're a human being) gives you.

Respecting your mother's choice as hers alone...not because you weren't good enough, smart enough, influential enough...none of those things were in your control...aware enough...because humans can hide without knowing they are consciously...not give the signals they see as signals...and not live in their truth...this is a mammoth-sized request of yourself, to see your mother cut off your influence, which can feel like being cut out of existence, when she was cutting off her own.

Worth working through at the same time you do your marriage...was great for me to take my own issues in one hand and my "marital" ones in the other, because more and more I saw them linked...enmeshed...me reacting to old stuff in the present, as if it was happening again and again...

Did you become a fixer to protect others from themselves, because of your mother's choice? That if you were careful enough, smart enough, insightful enough, then you could ward off their self-damaging choices?

If you took the blame, you held the power?

Could that be a payoff?

"How does operating from my own code free me from responsibility for the affects my actions have on other people? To say that pesron A's reactions or feelings to something I did (or didn't do) is to, IMO, duck responsibility for my action/inaction."

Okay, here's you...

"I am feeling fearful right now, unanchored and lost."

Pretend this is your wife: "I am not threatening you! Why do you get to be lost when I'm not allowed to?"

Your choice of action was to state with ownership your stuff...what you were feeling right then (pretend)...and your wife took it as blame, and her responsibility...what were you responsible for by holding to your honesty and ownership? Nothing. Listening and repeating her reactive words,

"I hear you believe I am blaming you for what I feel, is that correct?"

"Yes!"

"My feelings are my own...you can't cause them, DW...I do understand how you can hear blame when it isn't there. I used to hear it all the time."

Loving this way...courageous, gentle, firm loving...is respect. It is intimacy...she shared her feelings, which were defensive and you got to know she can feel attacked when there is none...and you share, anyway.

Another scenario...

"You don't love me. You are so selfish. I sat next to you and you didn't hold my hand or turn to talk to me."

Examine if you were withdrawing, or feeling rejected from a prior incident...and then own it.

"I hear you saying you do not feel loved when I am not affectionate. I was thinking of the way you pulled away from me in the kitchen earlier, at dinner, and I felt rejected. I am working on giving not to get, acting from choice, and not seeing rejection in my attempts...I have looked to the results of my actions in others all my life. This is really difficult for me." And you choose to take her hand, not because she demanded it or fear what she thinks...but because you choose to love and in that moment, you are connecting...with shared thoughts and feelings...and palm to palm symbolizes it...skin to skin.

The more you share of yourself, without blame, total ownership, interest...the less you will try to be responsible for response...see their root? Easy to confuse, isn't it? You do ripple around the world...begin with being true and faithful to self, then others...

How can you be responsible for responses when they are not yours? You are responsible for your thoughts, feelings, beliefs, words and actions...you cannot be responsible for which you cannot control...and we can't control consequences...others' reactions and actions...we choose from our code as the best way to live...define, be aware and live by it. Let go the results...they are part of others, not you.

Standards and boundaries...if you believe in living honestly, then you must be honest...to others and to yourself. How will this harm? Some people will hate you for sharing because they will feel less than, uncomfortable, or fear intimacy....share yourself with them, anyway.

You are not responsible for their feelings, thoughts or beliefs...respect those as their own. If they ask you to stop sharing yourself with them, then you can acknowledge their feelings, listen and repeat, and choose to not share with them...or to choose to share and allow them their choice of response. You aren't doing damage, are you? If you are being faithful to yourself, in all honesty, then you are respecting others by acknowledging their feelings and not choosing to react to them...but continuing acting with pure intent.

Man, I'm coming back to this through a lot of interruptions...another stab at an example...

You're excited over something and shout with glee...another person asks you not to shout because it hurts their ears, made them jump...you can express that same glee without shouting...doesn't betray yourself to not shout glee...see the diff?

If you give me some examples, then I'm sure I can explain better...shout with glee? OMYGOSH...what am I, 100 years old today? LOL...guess I felt, at some point this morning, like shouting with glee...

Now, separate and equal, owning only what is yours and living respectfully breaks enmeshment...once you get this down, then you move on to the four rules of marriage...including the rule of protection...radical honesty...can you see where learning to be faithful to self and live from your code would be important to get before attempting any of these rules?

"If we're separate and equal, then why bother to protect people you love (or even those you don't)?" When you both get firmly rooted in where your control and power ends...then you can practice the rule of protection..."I allowed myself to create a lot of resentment over what happened on Father's Day." Both rules...PORH & protection...you must protect your wife from your own resentment...which you create...and you do this by owning it and sharing it...and then, not choosing any action/expectation to build it. Are you protecting your spouse from your actions? Are you protecting her from your feelings?

And no, you caring about OM's actions towards your wife disrespects your wife. She is as capable as you are, Bird...she can have boundaries and protect herself...stop abuse...etc...and she CHOSE not to...know this...she was half the affair...has her payoffs...reasons...justifications...and she may need to feel hurt, attacked, disrespected and abused to feel anything...who knows? What do you know now? Where's your payoff, your comfort, your enlargement in renting space in your mind to OM when he is a fantasy...

You want to protect people from pain, which is their own...and can stimulate growth...so you want to stunt people, degrade them and keep them from joy, is that correct?

You want to stop pain everywhere, maybe? Stop abuse? You can only stop your own, the abuse you do, daily. To others and to yourself...and when you do this...you'd be amazed how it stops seemingly everywhere...in wider and wider circles.

You must change your intent to stop protecting others and your intent is to protect yourself...if you keep your intent for others first, then you continue self-betrayal and feel it coming from other places...you want desperately to protect yourself from pain, maybe?

Your choice what to do with your life in the military...living your beliefs...I can tell you, sacrificing your self for others is like telling God he's full of poop...because he made you, your Self, for a purpose...if you choose to put others ahead of Self, then that's your freedom...and your prison...now, serving to ensure freedom for self and others...live free or die...isn't negating self, is it?

Please discern between a symbol and a taint...the wedding ring is tainted in your mind through contact...not as the original symbol...why not wait until further in recovery, when you guys are artists with POJA, and see if you can change your belief, or if taint is truly a boundary...or if adjusting the symbol back to what it was is your answer.

(I wrote all this today...and you thought your last post was long? Do you remember mine? LOL!)

"how can fear lead to a perversion of God's design?"

What if nothing can pervert God's design? What if we eschewed God's design, shoving away what he created, and remade ourselves...a long time ago, made that self-image instead of embracing self...and that took a lot of coping skills from underdeveloped beliefs...instead of living knowledge? What if that one mistake created a lot of others...serving our image, our fear, acting to protect..what cannot really be protected? Fear of being known is as common as fear of being abandoned...both bear annihilation, erasure in them, don't they?

"I think one of the things that keeps my self-respect down is my desire to not cross over into arrogance. Self-confidence is, in part I think, derived from self-respect, and self-confidence can lead easily into arrogance. Mabye?"

Your maybe signifies to me your deduction may be askew...does self-confidence lead to arrogance? At all, let alone easily? Arrogance is the same as inadequate...looks different on the outside, same on the inside. Grandiosity and inferiority come from the same place...similar to what you're rolling around...not embracing self...accepting and knowing true self, not self image. Believing you are superior to or inferior to comes from not choosing to see God's design and inherent equality we all share...

Won't ease your fear of pride, though. Which is what I think you're wrestling with.

"Or perhaps I have this huge unrealized need for external validation? That I'm not a person of value unless others tell me that?" Well, that would make you normal, wouldn't it? LOL! If you believe love is earned, then others tell you when you're lovable, correct? That's external validation...if you allow others to define you...and why would you choose to believe and do that? Why not do what only you can do as a human being...define yourself...know how God created you...and leave the judging to him, alone? Give yourself hourly kudos...honest ones...you have enough in you already for that...just by being...not even doing...

"Or maybe I'm just a typical guy who needs his ego stroked on an hourly basis" You're funny. There. I defined you.

:P

"In other words, I can't share with others what I won't share with myself?" Well stated, Bird. Same thing I believe, I think...if you fear sharing who you really are with others, then you're ashamed of self, aren't you?

I like the way you said it better...because if you don't share yourself with you...then you won't know your shame comes from fear, not love, will you?

"People fixing is abusive, but yet there things that people do that are wrong and need to be fixed, right? Am putting two separate things in the same hat here? People vs actions?"

What stops others from fixing their own stuff? Yeah...you got a lot in that hat.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A chair can be broken and fixed. A person cannot. They will not endure what they cannot bear (be broken); and they change their beliefs, not their marvelous design.

Others are as capable as you are. Trust them to learn and grow...in their time...on their journey. That's respect. That's truth, isn't it?

If someone is down, we are programmed to cheer them up...why? Why invalidate their feelings. Why not acknowledge and understand...why "fix"? Could it be this constant fixing which brings us down? LOL! I spent my life feeling inadequate and defective...being a people person, a pleasing fiend, a DJ maniac...I relied on others to pick me up...until I felt what I felt...and now, someone saying, "Smile! Cheer up!" really annoys me...because I'm contemplative or sad...and I'm okay that way. They aren't. They need me to change for their comfort...their concern.

Interesting, huh?

Okay...I'm finished. Novel complete. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm going with this as my reason for this mega-post as...

You don't post often...so I get you when I got you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

P.S. And yes, MDC rocks...in his own right. As do you, Bird. All that you're investigating here is already in you...waiting lovingly to be see and be seen.

bird - GREAT analogy re: code. I am getting better at telling myself the same thing. Since I'm very cause and effect I've done a lot of damage to myself saying "if...then". I'm very consious of the word "if". It's a lousy word. A way into very unhealthy patterns of thinking.

I'll take your code analogy and use it when I go down this path - less and less now. It's freeing, isn't?? Giving yourself permission to make mistakes? Unteathering yourself from the past?? Like unhooking an 18-wheel trailer full of cement...