WOW, Broken- seems like everytime I turn around you are doing great things, realizing great things!

I've found drive-bys, O&H statements go alot further then we give them credit for. I forget myself to do this, and then I feel like I'm backpeddling, sinking, trying to had a discussion where a discussion is not needed! Just need to state what I feel, not looking for advice or a "fix" from someone else, just putting myself out there. More so for myself but also so others don't have to worry what mood I'm in, and wonder if it has to do with them. Something that needs to change at my house!

Well, you keep up the wonderful work. You are amazing!

I'm home...and not finished with ya yet...but I'm interrupting my regularly scheduled post to bring you...

"I can certainly try. After all, deriving my self-worth and self-respect from her is simply another form of unattractive neediness, right?"

This is the biggest downside you can see for deriving your self-worth from another human being? REALLY? :::scooping jaw off floor::: Oh, BB...you can do better than that...c'mon...bring it to me. Highest truth. Right now.

You can do it.

I LOVE shoot and scoot...yep...and you nailed the self-circumventing expectations attached to "O&H discussion" which would be you demanding her participation in what is only yours...

"Not sure how to make a non-confrontational statement out of feeling like she didn't value me enough to talk to me. Any suggestions? Or should I just ignore something like that?"

"When you said you'd wished you'd brought a book, I automatically took that as a slam--that I'm less interesting than a book. I can really see how I don't value myself enough."

It's not confrontational...it is your truth, stated. If you dare say, "Well, then she'll say, "I didn't say that"" then I'm coming through your monitor...because her response is hers...whatever it may be...even silence. That's okay. You aren't stating your truth to get a reaction one way or the other...just sharing how your mind works. What you're working on...all worth sharing. And you did GREAT sharing your self-sabotage theory on conflict avoidance.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you know "dance" is in "avoidance"...does that make you go, Hmmmm...?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay...another suggestion...MP characterized you as a smart-derriere...my H and I came up with a really funny way to do this as pure opinion, not definition...thanks to our YS...he came home one day and said, "Hold your tongue and say the word, Apples"...and we did...now, when we heard a smart remark from one of us...close to that humorous DJ area and we weren't great yet on what the boundaries were on such stuff, one of us would hold our own tongue and say Apples...and crack up...we've now evolved to saying "Apples" without holding tongue and we crack up...safe...and funny...no slams...and we use it to check ourselves with one another...my H might throw in a shot and then he'll say, "Are you thinking apples?"

LOL

Yeah, they don't teach you these kinda of sophisticated communication techniques at college!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

""It's not your fault that my brains are in my @ss.""

That is the most self-identifying statement I've heard from you! (NOT) :::ducking:::

If you're choosing to keep the self-DJs, then balance them with as many self-kudos...authentic and sincere...'k?

Rin is marvelous at authentic and sincere encouragement...just repeat what she says to yourself a whole lot...in your own voice, please.

Good to know you're laughing more with MP...and understanding your own insecurity shades what you see...now, can you ask for what you need the most?

"MP? I do a lot of mapping instead of listening. Would you help me out and tell me if you have recommitted to our marriage fully, or if you're waiting and seeing, or what I missed that you've told me that I got in the way of?"

Listen and repeat...so you get it straight in your own head. She may have stated it clearly...you don't know, we don't know. Get your filter set, hopper on head...and listen. It's her statement, not your life.

You can do this...you are doing this...and then you'll know, you're worth it. Have to prove it to Self after all these years acting like you're not to Self. Self knows. You don't...yet.

LA

So today's little adventure in BB's life...

My wife has some friends who are male. I know almost all of them (as in, I've met them, and get along with them - to the point that she once accused me of stealing all her male friends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

There is one that I don't know (as in, haven't met personally yet, though he invited us both to a party that we weren't able to make). My wife has a blog and he does as well (so do I, for that matter - 3 to be exact, though one is a mirror of my main one).

Recently there were a series of comments exchanged between them on his blog. I was not comfortable with the nature of them (to the point where I actually contemplated posting my own comment on his blog, but opted to share my feelings with MP instead).

I brought this up with her this afternoon while having lunch with her - just that I was uncomfortable with the nature of the comments, and that I wasn't making any accusations. She seemed surprised that I was able to read her friend's blogs (no, I didn't do any snooping - it's easy to do on the particular blog software they use - anyone can do it, and I use that method to stay up-to-date with mutual friends that also blog).

I did do a little checking once I got back into work on some stuff - nothing out of the norm. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned, but I know what drives this fear and can deal with it accordingly.

So what was today's little lesson?

I really wanted to ask her if she understood why I felt that way. I didn't, and I won't. For one, that's not (IMO) an O&H drive-by. It is, for me, a leading question - it's the kind of question I'd ask under the guise of trying to gain clarity, when in reality I'm trying to lead her to the answer I want to hear. Which invariably degenerates into a lot of unhappy discussing.

Though I did find it amusing to hear her charactize me as getting jealous at the oddest times (not said to me, to him, after I left home). I know where that statement comes from - my history (now defunct) with voyeurism. I'd love to bring that statement up, but I don't see any value in doing so. It's also partly out of a desire to protect my sources, though she knows that particular source is accessible by me. It's the first time I've looked at it in.....gosh, I don't know how long.

So there you go kids. I'm working on stopping myself before I go down the path of the Dark Side. Once I can consistently do this, I'll work on figuring out alternative means of expressing myself, if I need to - ones that aren't leading in nature, and bound to fail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LA -


Umm....hmmm....

Yep....'fraid so. At least, I'm drawing a blank right now on anything else. Unless it's a lack of self-worth?


Interesting that you wrote "I can really see how I don't value myself enough." A couple of weeks back, I was complaining to MP about my work situation, and that my manager frequently travels so our 1:1 meetings get canceled. She told me to schedule one if he doesn't reschedule, and I was hesitant. She asked me why was I not willing to make myself a priority?

That simple statement applies to a lot of my life. Thinking aloud here, so it may be a bit disjointed....

One of the things I want from MP is for her to make me a priority. Not an unreasonable desire, in my opinion. But what have I done to encourage her to do that? I mean, if I want to be a priority in someone's life, then shouldn't I take pro-active steps to make it that way, rather than waiting on them (expecting them) to do it?

I can see where my introvertedness, shyness, whatever (basically CA) can make me appear to not value myself to other people. Full circle back to if you don't value yourself, who will?


I had to do that to get it....that was funny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I may share that with MP - I think she'd find it funny too.


I guess I don't see a comment like that as a self-DJ (but then you already know my DJ-radar is flaky at times). I have a hard time giving myself kudos, because I operate under the impression that kudos should be from an external source. In other words, if I do a good job at something, or even a great job, I shouldn't pat myself on the back because I'm simply executing to my expectations and abilities - I should always do a good job, and go above and beyond. Though I do give myself kudos periodically - I'm always worried about bragging.


MP told me once that I second-guess everything and look for the hidden meaning. I admitted that she was right, and there were reasons I operated that way, and she knows them.

I can also see where that mode of operation - my interpretation of what you meant by mapping - can leave one ripe for disappointment, if not outright failure. By operating under assumptions, rather than truths, you can get distracted and lost, and often for no good reason. I can speculate all I want on MP's current state, but I have a better chance of being wrong than right, and if I operate off speculation, and it's wrong...

Nobody (not even our counselor) has recently asked MP if she's any closer to any sort of decision. The last time it was asked (2 months ago, maybe longer) she said she was leaning more towards our marriage.

We don't have counseling again for another 3 weeks, so perhaps it's time I ask for an update. A simple where are you at, along with anything I may have gotten in the way of.

I know my anger is a huge stumbling block. That keeps getting in the way, though I'm making progress.

I'm trying to follow Rin's mantra of not fearing my spouse's reaction to my O&H sharing...not always easy to do though.

Bravo! BRavo! What insight you are gaining! You're mother should be so proud! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am truelt impressed with the leaps and bounds you are making! WOW! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Outside of that, I am speechless! Make way everyone, new and improved Broken come to you soon in threaters everywhere! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Looks like I learned something from you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Oh, what hidden motive we have! Need I say more...guess I need to watch myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Have a great night! You deserve it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You defining yourself through others...downside looking needy in others' eyes? Linked with the not making yourself a priority...especially if you don't believe you ARE one.

Who are you, BB? Are you a reflection or real? I know you're real...I'm asking you to know it, also. Choose to believe it, on faith if you have to...not for how you will appear...rather to make you appear to yourself.

I loved how you say your urge to go from O&H statement to discussion and curbed it. Without self-bashing. AWESOME. You got your desire, acknowledged and didn't act on it. And you spoke, BB...stated how you felt about that guy's blog...another AWESOME.

Back to that ephiphany of priority...when you want something from someone else...then look to see if you're giving it to yourself...balance...and you did! You looked inward...AWESOME. I think I'm going to just copy that word because I believe I'm going to use it a lot here about you.

You're wrestling a life-long monster...living externally is as automatic now as breathing...this isn't easy. It is simple.

Stop.

LOL

Ya, I'm helpful.

You are now aware of living through others...what you haven't changed is your belief that is how to live...I think you're gonna get there...

Tell me what is so awful about living from within...and knowing others live from within, even when we buy the fantasy we live through others?

Not bragging to self is a signal...alerts you to a problem...would you check to see if you have two selves? One is the one God created...the other is the self-image you created. God had a lot more experience, wisdom and love when he made you...your self-image may be what you're not wanting to brag about...your real self is worth praising, loudly.

You want to listen purely, to know her truth...to live in your own truth...so you're not going to map, assume...to live in truth, reality...not all that other stuff, correct?

If you make your intent to live in respectful truth, in reality, then asking MP if she is committed to working on the marriage or not, is you acting on your intent, correct?

Thank you for being here...posting, sharing...you're rippling around the world...can you see that as you just being you? Not because of what you are saying, or that you're saying it well or not well...your choice of sharing you matters...

LA

BB- I thought you might find something interesting here! Let me know what you think!

www.coping.org

Enjoy!

Since name changes here seem to have some level of popularity, and I always wanted to be with the "in-crowd", I decided it was time for a name change <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I've been kicking the idea around for a few weeks. brokenbird, while an accurate description of how I felt when I registered, seems to be such a negative now. Therefore, I decided it was time for a more positive name, but one that still accurately reflected where I am....hence brokenbird becomes healingbird.

Haven't posted a lot lately - been busy. Things are going pretty good right now. I just realized that NC has been in place for 2 months now (At least as near as I can tell and/or verify).

I'm seeing another IC that's working with me on my anger issues - this IC even wrote up a plan for me of the things I want to be accomplished in when we're done <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's the plan:
1. When I'm angry or upset, to be able to express my needs in a non-confrontational or non-violent manner, refrain from being too judgemental or critical, with the outcome being that I feel heard and understood.

2. Be able to let go of things, taking responsibility for my own actions and emotions, not others. To avoid telling others what they are thinking and making assumptions about others.

3. When I am upset, to bring up my concern before it becomes a crisis or builds up tension/resentment that will only feed the problem.

4. Understand my anger better. What is it driven by? What other feelings might be under my anger that need to be addressed?

5. Develop better ways to manage my anger so that it doesn't destroy my relationships with those I love and care for.

I scored myself pretty low on the 5 above (usually 2-3 on a scale of 1-10), but at least now I have something on paper to help guide me on my journey. For the first time I'm really beginning to feel that I am capable of (and am succeeding in) getting a handle on my anger, though I have a long way to go.

Rin - I looked at the site you posted. I'll have to go back and look again, as I didn't have much time the first time.

LA & Rin - both of you (I think) have indicated that you see some signs of PA behavior in me. I was wondering if you could specify what those are? I'm not disagreeing, just curious for objective input. Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, did you pat yourself on the back! This is wonderful, I mean the name change, the IC, the plan! I am in awe...and I glad that you have shared your changes with me.

As far as the PA behavior, like I've been told we all exhibit some PA behaviors but that doesn't make us full PA. So, please keep that in mind! I'm not sure I'm the best one with this task, but I'll try.

Maybe revisiting these questions will help you out, LA posted these in this post #3042186 - 06/21/06 03:16:


This was your reply, the first time:

And my response was:

Do you have a tendency to be the victim in a situation? Can you see a pattern of behavior when you are angry?

Also revisit this site and see if what self has to say.

http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html

Let me know what you think. I have found some PA tendencies in myself and DH does the same things. That's why it's called the "dance," we're both reacting to each other instead of acting.

OH, this is a good story to read: http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

I'm sure someone else can help you better than I can on the subject becasue my knowledge is limited.

It's good to see you around! I like that shining attitude I'm seeing! Keep up the great work. I'll check in later!

HB....Bird!! Oh, big congrats on the name change...great name...my Dad's initials, even.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I know...irrelevant, but I'm into sharing.

To your goal list...

#1...practicing your O&H statements will aid you greatly in stating your feelings instead of acting them out...like I told Rin, it's like exercising a muscle...practice, practice...and eventually, it will be your automatic response...If you have been reading the P/A thread (SHMI's), you'll see I can truly say this works...for real, 100%...because I hit an awful trigger this week and did not react in anger, acting out, withdrawal, attack...and as it turns out, none of that was required, anyway...this path you're on really does change everything, I promise you!

2) For the letting go...HurtingLess gave a good stress and anger-reliever concept on that same thread today...he said, when you feel that anger flare, stop and ask yourself, "Is this something that will matter six months from now? If not, let it go...if yes, deal with it."

Terrific advice, I think. Coupling that choice (to inquire before ya fire, you might say) with truly removing your belief and permissions to take on what isn't yours, that vow to live respectfully...and you'll have this one wrapped up.

3) Goes with #1...and staying aware of your emotions...and awareness is reinforced when you exercise that muscle regularly...also becomes automatic.

4) This is what I suggest you do here, on your thread...posting a summary each time about your feelings, including any anger, frustration, resentment (fear)...as you post, what you experienced...because we're safe and won't attack you for what you're feeling (okay, well, MOSTLY I won't)...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And 5), I think, is the culmination of 1-4...and you're already on your way, HB...

How's work? How's MP? Such a pleasure for me to see you...and as for P/A behaviors...Rin has you covered there...and yes, I felt like I was echoing her here...had to come up with something else to add!

LOL

LA

So here I was thinking that I could post some of the really cool (IMO) things that have been going on for MP and I...

And then I get a text message from her. Now, the good news is that it's nothing to do directly with our relationship, or our recovery - at least not directly (I think things are generally progressing well right now, to be honest).

Her youngest brother and his wife are apparently on their way to jail, and the kids (2 of them) are en route to the state. We don't know what the details are, only that her brother asked her to try and get the kids so they don't go into state custody.

I'm really trying hard not to panic, and told MP not to either, since we don't have any idea what is going on.

However, I have a lot of concerns if we have to take the kids on long-term. I am loathe to admit it, but I'll be honest, that most if not all of the reasons are selfish.

First, I'm not sure I'm capable of dealing with 4 kids at one time for an indefinate period of time.

Second, while we're not poor, we definately don't have a lot of wiggle room in our budget right now, and if we have to take my BIL's kids for a protracted period of time, that means MP will have to stay home, because we can't afford daycare for 3 kids at once.

Third, it'll create (at least initially) a lot of chaos at home, which is the last thing I (at least) need or want.

Fourth, I'm afraid it'll have a negative impact on our recovery, because it's hard enough to find (and afford) a sitter for our kids, let alone 2 more. Not to mention with 4 kids (3 4 years old or under) in the house, quality time with my lovely wife of any significant duration ain't gonna happen (short of going without sleep in the middle of the night, which might happen anyway with 2 toddlers and an infant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Ok....so we're currently in crisis mode at the HB&MP household. Hopefully it's not a worst case scenario and we only need to keep them a few days.

If it's more of a long-term thing...shrug. Not sure what to do. Helping family is important, but you have to draw a line somewhere.

I think I'm tired of a world in technicolor - can I have one in black and white please? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember you are healing bird? Don't stress, don't react right now, be still, take it one minute at a time, not day...that's too long...rest assure that God DOES NOT give us more than we can handle!

Let's see what the situation is first and go from there...I know you know this...you can do it...do you think you might be getting a lesson in love?

Hi Rin -

Thanks. I know I'm supposed to be healing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm just very sensitive to things that might impact that ability or capability.

My wife is big on extended family (she grew up with a lot - I didn't have much in the extended family department). I understand that and am willing to support it, but not at the potential expense of my family. My wife and kids come before anyone else - even other family. Maybe that's mean, but that's how I see it (currently).

Now for the update. Nephews will be staying with BIL's MIL, at least for the night. Turns out BIL and his wife (and the people living with them) were arrested for drugs.

Stupid.

Stupid.

Stupid.

Doing drugs (and having the associated paraphenalia) in the house with kids present? Come on...I know my BIL is smarter than that).

The situation is still very much in flux. Not having done the drug thing myself, I'm not very familar with the legal reprecussions, but I could see them risking losing custody for something like this, depending on the circumstances and any previous criminal record.

I don't know BIL's MIL that well, but from what I understand he prefers us watching his kids to her. If it comes to a long-term thing, MP is probably better-suited. She ran an in-home, state-certified daycare for 2 years, and until recently was working in a daycare center at a county court. She's got experience dealing with multiple kids (especially the under 5 years category), plus a current background check with the state. And she's currently not working, so she could provide full-time care.

I shared some of my concerns with her, so she knows my stand (i.e., concerned but undecided).


Like I haven't gotten enough in the last 8 months? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not sure what the lesson here would be. A long-term situation could be very detrimental to our recovery, I fear - or at least put it on hold, and frankly I'm tired of having my needs put on hold for some (possible) future fulfillment.

Yes, you're right - God doesn't give us more than we can handle. Though I think He tends to give us a little more so we'll remember to rely on Him. But I think I've gotten that lesson already, and really don't relish another one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like a group effort is your outcome, HB.

Not all you...not all anyone else...stay present. (I know you know that.)

I think you're more creative than you give yourself credit for, btw.

I think nothing is on hold...nor will it be...if you have a mouth to speak with...

IMO.

Might be a lot of other lessons in this, too...

MP has a lot of extended family...lots of resources for love...judging them...what YB & SIL prefer isn't at issue right now...they gave up that choice...just for now...and I'm sure their first preference would be to be at home with their children.

Just for today, HB...you are intact, whole and nothing has truly changed, has it? Tomorrow is one day, also...soon here...a lot of intimate conversation can come about...if you're open...what do you think?

LA

I'm there with you...I hear you...I hear your fear...I also agree with LA...one day...

Intimate conversations...I like the sound of that...

HB & MP sitting in a tree...K I S S I N G...Okay, I won't finish...Hope I got a laugh...or is MP your Laia(sp) from SW?

LOL

What a week. In addition to BIL's family issues, we finally (after 2 months, due to schedule conflicts) had another MC session.

Our MC was very unhappy with us, because we hadn't been doing our homework. Mainly, scheduling time for dates (finding a sitter is nigh impossible at times), and not keeping up on our daily devotions. He hammered me the most for that one....not fun, and I was rather pissed, but I do understand his perspective. We go back in two weeks, and while I'm not going to guarantee any dates between then and now, I will make sure we do our devotions daily.

MP and I talked after MC. I was a little upset with her, because when we were queried on our devotions, she said she never brought it up with me because she didn't want to nag. Gee, thanks, dear - I love being hung out to dry like that. I told her that I felt it was entirely reasonable for her to point out if I wasn't doing something I had been told to or said I would for her to ask me about it. Asking about it is not nagging, and frankly, I feel I have so many balls in the air right now that I am going to occasionally drop one or more.

Basically, out of MC I was able to convey to her that I would really like someone in my corner, and I feel that I don't have that. Specifically, I'd like her to be in my corner. She told me that she's finding it very hard to respect me right now - and that one caught me by surprise.

Her reasons: 1. I don't stand up for myself enough in my job. 2. She is still having a really hard time with my prior voyeuristic streak. 3. I appear to lack self-confidence and that makes me appear needy.

Ok....well, #1 I'll agree with, and am working on.

#2 I can't do a damn thing about...it's a non-issue for me (i.e., my interests no longer run that way), and I've apologized verbally and in writing multiple times. I honestly don't know what else I can do there. I told her all I can do is give her time to work through it.

#3 This one, I think, deals mostly with SF, so those of you with tender ears cover your eyes while you read <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a lot of frustration right now because I don't feel that I am able to satisfy her completely on a regular, consistent basis. So I have to work against that fear during SF. Add to the mix that she's told me, more than once, that there have been times where we've had SF when she didn't want it, and that there are times when she's not interested in me at all, plus the lingering effects from the affair, and I think I have every reason to question my ability. I know I shouldn't, but it's easier said than done. I have never been good at projecting self-confidence when I don't have it to start with. Put simply, I feel very much like she's swept my feet out from under me, dropped a ton of bricks on me, and then is standing there yelling at me to get back up.

I do not feel any willingness from her to attempt to undo the damage her actions did - or at least, not in any way that I can readily recognize, and I'm getting tired of trying to figure it out.

She made an observation earlier this week. She said she realized something depressing - that she doesn't think she's ever felt comfortable opening up completely to me and leaning on me for support. I asked her what I could do to help with that, and she said she didn't know (I get "I don't know" a lot from her, so I'm reaching a point where I feel like why even bother?). From my perspective, I think she's never fully opened up to me, and at the same time she's mad becuase I haven't gotten to know her. Well, WTF do you expect? I'm only going to play 20 questions for so long, and when I keep getting "I don't know", I give up.

A couple of days ago she said that, for example, during this whole mess with her brother, I didn't seem to be supportive of her when I saw how drained she was. I asked her what I had failed to do, and the example she gave me was that I could have given her a hug.

Ok...sorry. I thought I was being supportive. So again she trots out one of her common themes - every other relationship she's had, the guy has just done those things...she didn't have to tell them. Well, I can tell you (and I told her) that I'm getting pretty damned tired of being compared to other guys, and being blamed for not being them. I am me. Plain and simple. I act as I understand things, through my own filter of experience. As long as she continues to expect me to do certain things that to her are obvious, but doesn't bother to tell me what she expects, I'm going to fail (ironically, she's called me on not spelling out my expectations and then getting mad when they're not met). Go figure.

She won't point things out to me because she figures if I don't do it on my own, I won't do it. This is what I mean by her continually setting me up to fail.

Last night we had a falling out again. She has told me that she is not going to initiate SF (for who knows how long)....she's tired of always initiating (I won't argue that with her; it's generally true). So I have to initiate to meet her need, and I have no guarantee of it going anywhere. I asked her (this was probably a DJ) if this was some sort of payback, and she said it wasn't. She just wants to feel like a woman. Ok...fair enough. But when I do intitiate, it seems (at least recently) like I don't get any response....nothing positive, nothing negative. Granted, I need to work on my patience, but I would expect some sort of reaction, however small.

Example - I tried to initiate Friday night.....no response....nada...zip. She finally told me that it just wasn't going to happen (she was trying to get in the mood, but she just couldn't). Ok. That I can accept (though I wonder if she'd be more willing with someone else - inner demons reporting for duty). The next night, feeling the sting of failure from Friday, I didn't initiate much...just enough to show her I was still interested. Turns out she was in the mood - so I failed again (her complaint - one of them - is that I stop to soon).

I actually journaled last night for the first time in months. I had to journal because if I didn't I knew I'd forget by morning what I finally figured out.

I'm tired of being the one that puts in all the effort. I'm not the one who had the affair, so why am I the one who has to do all the work? What is her responsibility? It's been 10 months since D-Day, 8 months since the last trip, and 2 months of NC. In all this time almost nobody in the counseling circle has ever asked me how I felt....what problems did I have with MP in our marriage pre-A. I'm getting tired of being painted as the husband who had the loving, doting, perfect wife and drove her to have an affair through my neglect. That's an utter load of [censored].

MP, after our last MC, said that I didn't appear to want to be the leader of the household. I want to be in charge, but not the leader. That I'm always looking at things from the perspective of how they benefit me, or what they cost me. I asked her to give me some recent examples, and she couldn't. I will freely admit that I was that way pre-A, but I've been working on that since then.

I asked her point blank what her position on our marriage is this weekend. She said willing and trying. Ok....better than it was a few months ago (when she was "leaning" towards our relationship), but I wanted so badly to tell her that if that was the case, then she needs to get off her [censored] and start actively working on her stuff.

I can't talk to her. Not completely. I don't feel safe talking to her. I don't trust myself enough to keep my anger in check, and I don't trust her enough to actually listen to me with an open mind without defending herself in whatever it is I want to discuss. It honestly does feel to me like no matter what I bring up, it always comes back to being my fault. While that's undoubtedly true some of the time, it can't be all of the time. That, or I'm more screwed up than I'm willing to admit.

I'm afraid to share my feelings with her, because I'll either get upset, or I'll appear to lack self-confidence and be needy, or she won't listen to me the way I want her to, or all three. I've made a conscious effort to not discuss the A, and if she brings it up I'll acknowledge what needs to be and leave it at that.

For example, we were talking about our MC. He doesn't know about my voyeurism (I'm not hiding it from him - we just kind of said an affair had happened, MP felt neglected by me, and jumped into trying to fix things). He also doesn't know about the second trip...MP said that it wasn't much of a trip.

I told her that in many ways, the 2nd trip was worse than the first, and left it at that. And it was. Because the first trip, in many ways, "happened." Not that I believe the affair was totally unplanned (I have copies of stuff that indicates it had been talked about; don't know if she knows I have that or not). But the second trip, planned after I knew about the affair and was working to fix my problems, was basically a way of flipping me off. I didn't tell her all of that - just that it was worse for me.

I have a hard time believing we're in recovery, at least as defined by the Harley's. I don't feel she's working at it as hard as I am, and I have yet to see any apology or remorse. I don't know if she understands (or even cares), but lack of an apology or a remorse could very well be a deal-breaker for me, no matter how good we make things. I haven't told her this because I don't want to put pressure on her yet - I know she has to work through things, and I'm still willing to give her time. I am not, however, willing to sweep this A under the rug.

I really need (or at least want) to be able to talk to her about this stuff, but the last time we did, it set her back weeks and brought her feelings for my ****** ex-friend back in force.

But honestly, I'm getting quite tired of putting in effort, only to be told over and over again that I'm not doing this or I'm not doing that or whatever. I try to give her praise for what she does that I appreciate, but I pretty much have to ask her for anything positive.

About time to go to the gym. I'm beginning to think HL has something in his detachment approach.

Sorry for the ramble. It's been a crappy week and I needed to vent.

"I'm beginning to think HL has something in his detachment approach. "

Good Afternoon! I wonder the same thing...I feel the same way you do...

Okay...I'm Plan Aing...nothing in return...a few morsals here and there...If I speak, I feel it's falling on deaf ears and a closed mind. this is not post-A this is an entire M thing. I've always felt like I wasn't being heard and sure aren't not!

I love the way you are owning your stuff...good job...and I see that you don't trust yourself with your anger...How's finding that anger management class coming? Have you simply stated just what you said here:

That's am amazing statement of your truth! Or is it scary just to say that much?

Self-doubt, umm? I just keeping wondering what I have to fix within myself to be understood the way I want to be loved the way I want? Sound familiar? Expectations?

I'm not sure, but I would think that all of us come to the same conclusions that you've come too at some point?

My biggest fear is that WH and I will continue be like this! I can't handle that. Some thing has to give, somewhere, somehow?

Your MC hammered at you?

Really?

Aren't you paying him/her?

You can feel hammered...does that mean they are doing it? You can feel guilty/shamed for not doing the daily devotionals...did you think of it often and choose not to? You can be honest...I know you can.

And I'm projecting here, so I might be full of it, 'k?

You could say that, too.

You could say to MC "I feel shamed, hammered on...is that your intent?"

Speak, HB!!! Speak and be known...you are worth it. I ain't telling you that again!!!!!

(Yeah, that's me with all the exclamation points)

Did you learn that journaling HELPS you...so stopping it for months HURTS you? Your choice?

Want another P/A behavior highlight? You can bite me if you want to...

Here it is: "Ok...sorry. I thought I was being supportive."

"You wanted me to hug you, I hear that. When I am feel pressured and stressed, my fear level goes way up and I automatically want to pull inward. I tried really hard to stay present, to be supportive and I guess I felt the pulling inward even physically. Good to know."

State and know what you state to be your truth. I made all that up. Tell me your own words why hugging, holding, both to support and be supported...wasn't what you naturally did, when you feared greatly the impact of BIL family would have on yours...

I'm hoping to halve your perspective of feeling like the total Giver...and for you to see your Taker ain't bad or wrong...the balance comes from seeing your actions two ways...outward and inward...doing also does for you...which stops that resentment train in its tracks. If you use the brake, of course.

I see you doing too much and stating too little...your truth is worth knowing...equal to knowing hers...seems like you're taking her stuff as The Truth, instead.

Tell me if I'm wrong...IMO. Opinion. I'll give it until I'm blue in the face to you...'cuz you're worth every breath. Every single breath. Know this, HB. You rock. No doubt. Give yourself the kudos for each action you take instead of reaction...each touch, eye contact and statement you choose to give...and know your choice.

She is sharing her issues about you...doesn't make them all about you...still her issues...you KNOW you're different and why. She has to catch up to that. No competition or timeline here. Let go what you can't control...you aren't making her do anything to save the marriage...your choices are saving your marriage.

God's with you in each choice...each time you choose to from your code ('member that ol' thang?) and not based on how you WANT her to respond...don't thwart yourself. Get thwart removal, available at your local drug store.

Does it feel like I'm shoving you off a cliff?

"I'm afraid to share my feelings with her, because I'll either get upset, or I'll appear to lack self-confidence and be needy, or she won't listen to me the way I want her to, or all three. I've made a conscious effort to not discuss the A, and if she brings it up I'll acknowledge what needs to be and leave it at that."

Your fear is yours...period. Share anyway. You know this. You can be emotionally upset (just a shortcut to not being able to name each feeling)...and state your feelings, anyway. State them, not demonstrate them. Tears are healing...you can have them. Anger has a red face and shortness of breath...you can survive it. Fear trembles and so does frustration (lots of fear in it)...sadness (pain from knowing true loss and false loss) swells without sharp edges; shame has downcast eyes...those are expressions...know yourself what you feel and do not fear to share.

Be authentically you...risk being loved, anyway!!

That is the road to building your own confidence...knowing what you'll do in any given situation from practicing O&H and facing your own fear of intimacy...true confidence comes from taking those actions, acknowledging them, admiring and appreciating them in yourself...regardless of response from others. Build it...you're worth it and you were from the start...clear out the old stuff blocking you, 'k?

You can't control her listening...if you don't feel heard, ask her to listen and repeat...state you don't feel heard. If you want her to FEEL what you feel, which can lead you to not believing you're heard...or if you're not getting the reaction you secretly want...then know that about yourself...and acknowledge your own stuff to yourself out loud. Being brave isn't easy...being known is.

God didn't make humans need to be intimate and known for procreating...he did it so we can KNOW him, as well.

Journal like mad, HB...see on paper what you're feeling...if after you've felt it. You will feel more known, heard, accepted, understood and valued...as you do this for yourself...so will you also do it for others.

I promise.

You can kick me to Timbuktoo if I'm wrong, 'k? This is the road to thriving...let me shove you off that cliff...your choice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((HB))))

(And a huge hug to wonderful RIN...she knows, too!)

You are not alone.

LA

HB, where are you man? Please check in! I'm missing you! How are things going?

Hi Rin -

I'm here. Just been off the forums for the most part of the last few weeks. Lots going on...guess I should update one of these days. Nothing disastruous, and things are going generally well. Just busy. Thanks for checking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />