It's so nice to see you around. I really missed you and your wisdom. Thanks for everything you posted on my thread.

I hope you and the family are doing well. Does your DD destroy stuff or is that a boy thing?

Saw you on, thought I'd bump...it's what I do.

LA

Hi Rin -


My DD is capable of amazing levels of destruction. I think it's inherent in kids in general. Or maybe my DD is just a super-tomboy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LA -

Thanks for the bump. I'm about to post an update (finally).

I saw mention a while back on another thread that you're due to become a grandmother soon. Congratulations <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember - the great thing about grandkids (so I've been told) is that you can spoil them rotten then send them back to their parents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I haven't posted a lot lately, as I've been busy at work and home. We're coming up on one year since D-Day

(11/06/05), and I thought I'd post an update of where we're at, and where I believe we're heading.

Warning: This will be a long post, but I'll try and break it into sections to make it easier to read.

Affair Summary
My wife's affair happened with a friend of mine that I knew over the internet due to a shared interest he and I
had. OM and my wife began to chat (online) in August 06 - he had initially asked her (via me) if she had some
time to do some web site work for him. Their chatting quickly moved to phone calls, though I (at the time) had
no idea how much time they were spending chatting and talking on the phone.

She went out to help him pack up his kids rooms (he was going through a divorce at the time), and while I wasn't entirely happy with the idea, I acquiesced (Big Mistake(TM)). This happened in late October. I knew that they had been flirting, but had little idea how much and how explicitly. I should have listened to my gut, but I didn't.

The affair turned physical on that trip. A couple of weeks after she got back, we got into another one of our relationship discussions, and she told me that she was ready to walk - let me have the house and kids, she was done. I could tell she was 150% serious, and realized I needed to make some serious changes, pronto. It was
at the end of this weekend that I asked her point blank if anything had happened with OM.

She admitted that it had, but it took a month to get the full confession out of her (her initial admission said oral, one time only). During this time, the emotional part of the affair was going on full blown, and I didn't know about it. I hadn't found MB yet, and didn't demand NC from her after the initial confession.

I found MB and shared it with her, and we began looking for MC. The whole fact of the affair through me for quite a loop, obviously. I thought we were making some progress, when 6 days before Christmas she dropped a huge bomb on me. She was going back to see OM for 2 weeks 2 days after Christmas.

I completely came apart at that point. I'm sure it wasn't very attractive <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I started posting on MB shortly before she left for the second trip. The second trip only lasted 4 days, and she was home for New Year's Eve.

It took another 6 months to establish NC, and the first 4 months of 2006 were very tough, with lots of ups and owns. There was a lot of hostility from her in the first couple of months, and there were a number of times that I seriously thought about throwing the towel in.

MB became a lifeline for me in those tumultuous times, and helped me immensely with my own recovery.

Self Examination and Personal Recovery
The announcement of the second trip ("to say goodbye and get OM out of her system") was the catalyst for me to get my walk with God ontrack. I had nowhere and no one else to really turn to. I took stock of who I was, and what my wife's complaints were.

I had anger control issues that I had not dealt with, despite my wife's request/suggestion that I seek counseling. A lot of stuff had happened with my FOO, beginning around the time I met my wife, and culminating
with my father's death shortly before our marriage and my mother's suicide shortly after our daughter was born.

Lots of unresolved grief that didn't get buried very well, resulting in a lot of anger.

I also didn't show my wife the amount of physical affection she wanted and needed, which had been a constant
complaint I hadn't addressed. Her libido is definately higher than mine, but SF was just a part of the whole
physical affection need for her.

Turning to God, fully submitting to Him, was a significant step for me, which began early in this process. I had not assumed the mantle of spiritual leadership in my home for my family, and that was another issue for my wife.

Finally, I had an obsession with voyeurism...an obsession which is now thankfully gone. I have no fear of it ever returning, but I do keep guard up against it, and have personal boundaries in place to safeguard against its return as well.

So I had a list of things to work on, and I was willing to do it. Surprisingly, the voyeurism issue was the easiest one to resolve, though the effects of it on my wife are still there. (I should add that the trip to see OM had absolutely nothing to do with this obsession, and in fact I had told my wife flat out to do nothing with OM. No need to point out the obvious here, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

My initial submission to God was also quite easy at first. When your entire world shatters, it's very easy to pray to God and seek His will. As they say, there are no atheists in foxholes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As things got smoother, I've varied in my submission to God, nearly falling off the wagon for a couple of months over the summer. I'm happy to report that I got back on the wagon though.

I'm working on the physical affection. In counseling I realized that I didn't come from a physically affectionate family, and my wife did. I had no doubt that I was truly loved in my family, we just didn't do a whole lot of hugging. I actually enjoy physical affection, it's just not something that I do a lot of without having to think about it first. So it's a habit I'm working on acquiring <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The anger control has taken the longest, and like most of what my self examination revealed is still a work in progress. I have come a long way, IMO, in handling my anger, though it still gets the best of me more than I would like. Learning to share my thoughts and feelings has gone a long way towards this, since repressing my feelings led to them all boiling over at some later point, leaving my poor wife wondering what the heck happened. A lot of learning to share came from what people on these forums told me, coupled with what counselor's have told me.

Being able to post incidents (usually as a rant) on the forum and get feedback has really helped me to learn how to more appropriately handle things, and to learn what is mine to own and what is not.

Getting a handle on my anger has helped me to create a safe environment for my wife, which facilitates communication and intimacy. Amazing how much stuff is inter-related in a relationship.

Magpie's Recovery
I honestly can't say a whole lot here, because only she knows for sure where she's at. I can share my observations, which will be somewhat biased, but hopefully fairly objective. I doubt that she'll ever post here again, as she got beat up pretty good when she posted here, so if I say anything in this section in error, it's entirely mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Early on, MP's attitude on our marriage was "open to the idea of it working out, but not expecting it to."

Recently I asked her where she stood now, and she said "willing and trying". To me, that's a huge step forward, especially the trying part. I had, way back when, pointed out to her that saying "open to it, but not expecting it" is like standing at the free-throw line and saying "Well, I'm open to making the basket, but I don't see it happening" and then wondering why you bricked.

She is working on her recovery. I think she's still got some entitlement in her mind, based on somethings she's said from time to time, but now it almost sounds like a reflexive reaction (i.e., I know I did something wrong, but...). In other words, I don't think it's as full-blown as it was at the beginning of the year.

She's had to examine her spiritual walk with God as well, and I think right now a lot of her focus is getting that right. Which is fine with me, as a God-centered marriage is what I want most, with a Godly wife. And I want to be a Godly husband. IMO, she has to get right with God first, and I'm willing to wait while her and God work that part out (though I wouldn't mind a shorter timetable <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

It was suggested by our counselor that she read "An Excellent Wife". She took his suggestion one step further, and has set up a study on that book with a group of her Christian friends (including her mom). Her initiative
in this has really made me proud of her, and inspired me to contemplate doing something similar for husbands with my male Christian friends, with the idea of maybe having the 2 groups get together once a month or so for fellowship and/or sharing what we've learned.

Finally, she's been struggling with depression and being down lately, and her ADs don't seem to be helping. She's ready to finally see an IC again, which her mom and I have both been gently prodding her to do, and her doctor on her AD check-up also suggested it, since the medications won't address the underlying issues.

Her recovery is hers to own, and runs on her schedule. I believe progress is being made, and I will aid her however I can while doing my best to not interfere or try to run the show for her.

Our Marital Recovery
It wasn't until fairly recently that I considered us to be in recovery. NC appears to be established since early June, so we're coming up on 5 months. A few weeks ago I realized that I had sub-consciously been putting us in a recovery holding pattern since I have yet to get an apology or see remorse from MP, but now I believe that the true apology/remorse may actually occur at some point during recovery, not prior to. So I would label us as "in recovery".

Recovery to me is a verb. It's a process. Recovered is a state that I hope we ge to. Keeping that in mind, along with the fact that there are 3 recoveries involved - mine, MP's and our marriage - helps me deal with the impatient side of HB.

I believe that things are better now than they were a few months ago. We've gone through a heck of a rollercoaster, and I have nod doubt that we have more ups and downs ahead of us, but things are definately better.

Back in February we dumped our first counselor (who was doing both MC and IC for us). He wasn't working for MP, and he was pushing me to do things that I didn't feel were the appropriate thing at the time. From MP's perspective, he was hyper-focused on the affair, and didn't want to discuss or look at the issues she had with our marriage. From my perspective, he was more interested in the boundaries he felt I should have in place than in what I felt needed to be done. He didn't seem to want to discuss the issues that had left our marriage vulnerable to the affair, and he really felt I needed to ask her to leave. He also seemed to think my voyeurism was a sex addiction (sex addictions was one of his specialities). I could see his point, but I also think that if it was an addiction, it was awfully easy to break <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Deciding that our current counselor just wasn't working for us, we began MC with the assistant pastor at our original church. He knew us from when we were dating, and was at our marriage. Although we don't see him as often as we'd prefer, he's been a God-send. He was able to connect with MP in a way that our previous counselor didn't. I think this is the point were things really began to start getting better.

I continued IC with another therapist, and then switched to one who dealt with anger management. In the meantime, I've worked on continuing to address those areas that my wife was dissatisfied with, and she's been working on some of the things that I was not happy with from her.

There's genuine affection between her and I now. She's still (or was a couple of months ago) having some trouble respecting me (she's felt I've been clingy/needy/lack of confident in some areas....probably true, but also - IMO - understandable given what she did; she's also having a hard-time getting past my voyeurism, which is understandble as well and will take time), but she's becoming more and more actively engaged in our marriage.

We haven't addressed the affair yet. I'm willing to let it lie for now; I figure there's not much point in addressing it until she's ready to discuss it without justifying it (i.e., I didn't think you'd care, You'd neglected me for years, etc.). It will be addressed at some point in the future - I will not allow it to be swept under the rug.

The Future
So what does the future hold for HB & MP? Only God knows for sure. I believe that we have an excellent chance at successfully recovering if we choose to. I also know that it's not a guarantee.

No matter what happens, I know that I will be fine. Realizing that was a seminal moment for me - it happened back in Mar/April. I was home alone with just DD and me, and I suddenly realized that if it came down to just DD and me (DS is my step-son, so I'm not sure where he would fall in a separation/divorce situation, though I would prefer him with me if it was a sole-custody issue), that I would be fine with that. It's not what I want, but I could deal with it.

I no longer have as much anger and bitterness over the affair as I did. I can think about it without going off the deep end now. This is good - it means I can more objectively examine it.

I am learning to own what is mine. How to speak my mind without worrying about how MP will react. How to pause and think when MP tells me something before reacting defensively. As an example, the other night we were talking and something came up about being trained to be a good husband, and MP said "I'll get you trained right and then someone else will benefit from it." I told her that I wasn't planning on leaving, and when I thought about it later, I realized that she was speaking from her fears, based on her life experiences, and that it didn't say anything about who I was or what I would or wouldn't do. Six months ago I would have been defensive at what she said (I may not have told her so to her face, but I would have brooded on it and added it to all the other repressed crap I was/am carrying).

I still want an apology, repentance, remorse. I honestly have not yet decided if that is a deal-breaker for me or not. Yes, I took her back. But if she never has remorse for her actions, how can I trust her, even a little, to not betray me again? For now this issue, along with discussing the affair, is on the back-burner.

Again, it's not going to stay there forever.

I am, with her help, regaining my trust in her. I no longer obsessively check the cell phone bills or her e-mail, or snoop on her computer. I have access to almost all of her accounts, and she has access to mine. She no longer switches windows when I walk near her when she's on the computer. I will never blindly trust her again, and I hope she never blindly trusts me. I am human, and I can and have failed. Heck, I don't trust myself - there are situations that I don't get into because they can be dangerous for me.

We have a long way to go, but I also feel we've made a lot of progress. We're very good in our spiritual
journey together, doing devotions as a couple nearly every night, along with praying together (in the morning I
pray for her, in the evening I pray with her with our prayer request/praise list in hand). I believe that our
time before Christ together has been very critical in our recovery journey.

One of the best things MP has said to me lately occurred when we talking about one of the couples were friends with at our church. They've had their ups and downs like everyone else, and MP was saying that the husband was a lot like me - very opinionated - and that the wife basically stopped sharing her opinions with him. Then she amended her statement to say something along the lines of "like we used to be - but we're getting better at".

That simple sentence meant a lot to me - because it was an unsolicited positive comment regarding the progress we've been making.

I'm actually quite happy right now. Happier than I've been in a long time. My self-confidence is coming back, and I'm liking myself. Ironically, one of the things that helped here was the lay-offs my company is going through. While I survived this round, I had started a job search in August - I got a lot of inquiries, and even a couple of interviews (got all the way to the second round on one of them). No offers, but just getting over 30 companies (mostly contract agencies) talking to me was a huge ego-boost. It showed me that I was marketable (of course, the skills I have are in demand, which helps <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). At the same time, I was able to sit back and objectively view my current job, and came to the realization that the team I'm on is very special.

It's a competitive team, but there's no cut-throat politictal antics here. Everyone helps everyone else. Realizing that the people on this team, including my manager, want to see me succeed really helped me get re-enthused about my job (it was always the case, I had just got so down that I didn't see it anymore). Of course, if the right job comes along (mainly in terms of $$) I may leave, but at least I'm happy again.

This has spilled over into my marriage. Coupled with the work MP is putting in, and the intimacy we're reestablishing, I'm in a much better place than I was this time last year.

Thank Yous
As I've said, MB has been a great resource for me, and I've gotten a lot of help and perspective from people on these boards. A lot of people I've learned from just by reading their posts, and others have stepped forward to offer their advice. I'd like to specifically thank several people for their help:

bigkahuna - You were one of the few who continued to offer advice and support in the early dark days while I waited for NC and our recovery began. I appreciate your willingness to share, even when I didn't always like what you had to say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Once I had a chance to digest what you said, I almost always agreed with it....but sometimes it was hard to swallow at first. Just like some medicines that are good for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Mortarman/ForeverHers - I don't know if words can ever adequately express how much I appreciate and value the advice and insights you have shared with me. Both of you played a huge role in getting me set on the right path as I finally began a true walk with Christ. Your scriptual knowledge and ability to apply it to everyday life continues to amaze me, and I don't think I can ever repay you for the help both of you gave me.

LovingAnyway - You have played a huge role in helping me shape my perspective on things. I've had so many light-bulb moments from reading your posts to me. You have a unique and special talent for taking the ramblings of a confused man and cutting to the heart of the matter. I've learned so much about owning what is mine, being O&H with MP, and being true to myself from you. Your willingness to share your experiences and insights have given me a better understanding of how a relationship between two people should really be. You are a born counselor, and I'm grateful for the advice and help you've given me.

Rin - Your support, encouragement and advice, even in the midst of your own trials, has always been uplifting to me. Your energy and sense of humor are great, and I appreciate you sharing with me on this journey that none of us wanted.

There are more who have helped, and I'm forever grateful to the people on these forums for their willigness to help, even in the midst of their own struggles.

I intend to stay active on these boards, so please don't take this as a farewell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Being happy on my job (and in my marriage, current problems not withstanding) have reenergized me to focus on these areas, so I may not
post as frequently as I used to. I will continue to post, and I hope I can help others in the future as I have
been helped.

What a lovely post, HB...

You really have come to your highest honesty, haven't you? If JustLearning reads this, I would think he'd say...your wife is acting on her remorse...tiny steps, like you know, is still acting on it...by her choice to stay, to work, to know, to center your marriage and to be present with you.

I'll be thinking of you in the coming weeks of anniversaries...sounds like you're in a great place to handle them...share all of those thoughts, feelings and perceptions...any triggers with MP, 'k? Use those "I" statements and do not back away from sharing your intense stuff...because if we do not share our pain, we will not share our intense happiness...you've learned this. I'm reminding.

I celebrate with you the homecoming of bringing your part and your marriage back to God's hands...and I know you both will thrive, heal, recover...I know you will.

And I celebrate you seeing your coworkers and boss in this way, again...and not kicking yourself for your previous perspective...empowering you more to know you choose that, even as your experience is determined by your choice.

You rocked, rock and will rock, HB...

LA

Hi LA -


One of the things that I've tried to do through all of this is not get focused on single incidents or little things (though I do from time to time). I try and keep a long-term perspective on things, to see if the general trend is upward. It has been - oh, there's been valleys and peaks, but the general trend has been upward. That's part of the reason I've been willing to wait for somethings that I want or need.

To MP's credit, even in the early days when she was full of doubt, she was willing to give me, and by implication, us, time to work things out.

It's funny that you mention triggers...I meant to address that in my post. I have an odd assortment of triggers. Some of the "normal" ones don't bother me, and some stuff does.

For example, if we're watching TV and an affair topic comes up (like it did in an episode of Stand Off), it doesn't really bother me or trigger me. I'll notice it, and might have a twinge of discomfort, especially when I hear the characters spout all the typical WS babble, but it doesn't really get to me.

On the other hand, I have a varying degrees of discomfort trigger with geography.

Example. The other day we found a new state quarter in a pile of change (we've been trying to collect them all). This one we didn't have - it happened to be CO. OM lives (or did) in Denver. Personally, I'd be just as happy to not have it in the collection, though I didn't object.

Better example. I've become a fan of CBS' new series Jericho. If you're not familiar with it, it focuses on a small town after a nuclear attack (it hasn't been revealed yet how farspread it was or who started it) - it's told from the point of view of the people in the town. The town happens to be somewhere near Denver, CO. Denver was one of the cities nuked. I have to say that whole concept has a certain level of appeal to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I have other friends in the Denver area, so I wouldn't really want it to happen....though dropping a 1 KT nuke on OM's head in the middle of a desert has a lot of appeal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

So yeah...I have some triggers. It's just bizzare the ones that come up. To be fair to MP, she is sensitive to some of them (the ones she knows about). Even early on she was. Back in Feb we were talking about renting a video to watch as a family, and she suggested one. It happened to be a movie that she saw with OM. I didn't say anything, and she told me that if I didn't want to see that one, she'd understand.

Some things that are or were triggers I try to overcome by reclaiming them. Yet another example (must be Example Friday).

There was a TV show that we enjoyed that only lasted one season, but we have the DVDs (we never saw the whole season). We watched some of them before her second trip, and she watched some more with OM while there. I was pretty upset about that, because I was waiting to watch them with her. We've watched a few recently, and I've been treating it as a method to "get back what is mine", so to speak.

I had a bit a while back where SF was difficult for me because of my own fear of failure/inadequacy and pictures of OM in my mind. I've finally conquered that one too (or at least got a handle on it). A few weeks ago during SF thoughts of OM appeared again, and I simply said in my mind (pardon my French) "F--- you. I'm here, you're not, and never will be."

So I'm getting there, day by day.

And while I don't always mention it, I know the real reason for the success we've been having, however small or big it is. It's a mutual commitment to God and a desire on both our parts to have a marriage centered on Him. We both have our parts to play, but I'll leave the heavy lifting to Him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ROFLMAO...oh, HB...do you know where I live?

Denver, Colorado.

You keep that quarter and think of me. 'K?

LOL

And yes, I DO understand and it's not odd at all! However, you now have a hitwoman at the ready to track down OM should he ever ruffle your life with so much as an exhale, 'k? I promise you...I WILL go after him for you, 'k?

(And by hitwoman, you understand that I would scald him verbally, with my shame-inducing powers; lash him within an inch of his emotional life, 'k?)

Now, having the triggers isn't wrong or bad...not sharing them isn't productive...when you guys found the quarter, did you give your resplendently simple, "I just triggered to OM. I want to add this to our collection, anyway"?

Same for Jericho...just little drive bys to share.

Thanks for your February story, btw. I don't know what movie my DH saw with OW, but he only just this week talked about how he felt anger at OW because of what they saw together cut me out of it...he's angry at his choices because he loves sharing with me and can't do those things now as part of the consequences. He views anger was the worst emotion possible, so two years later, he's only now safe enough to feel it and share it. I nodded and thanked him for sharing.

Meant the world to me to realize I didn't think for a second, until just now, recounting it again (it's on another thread), that the ol' me would have thought "He's saying I'm making him not share." Whew! Life gets really good, each anniversary past DDay, HB. I promise.

I really like how you're facing the triggers...I'm just urging you to make MP a part...because healing together, healing each's own, is a mutual journey to real mutuality...like you including each other in praying...what you do together doubles your lives. Into abundance. Sharing spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically.

We are working toward that ourselves...and you both are already there! Celebrate that...I believe sharing spiritually is the highest act of intimacy.

Thank you for sharing here...you're passing on messages, even if you don't know it. You've enhanced our lives and our marriage. Truly God is at work.

LA

HB-

My heart has fluttered from you sharing...I can surely see how far you have come...what an amazing process...I'm very happy to have shared our journeies together...

I too have learned a great deal from you...I agree with LA about coming to your highest honesty...

You sound SO centered...it's definitly been an honor for me...I wish you the best...

Just like you...I know that no matter what happens I will be fine...actually better than that...great... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL

thank you for being you...do you amaze yourself sometimes? I've found that I'm doing that a lot these days...I didn't understand that when LA said that I would...LOL

I look forward to hearing from you in the future...I'm sure that it will be blessed... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LA -


Oops. Sorry about that LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I actually have nothing against Denver, CO, except that OM lives there. I do have other friends there, and I did drive through it once on a cross-country trip (sure seemed to take a long time to get through the city, and this was late at night).


I guess that's something I need to work on. I'm scared of sharing my triggers with MP. Not because of how she may react, but because I don't want to bring back any residual feelings she may have for OM.

I inwardly cringe anytime something related to Colorador or Denver comes up on TV, for that same reason.

Hmm...writing that it sounds like I'm trying to own MP's feelings. Better work on getting over that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Rin -


Hmm....not really. I've occasionally amazed myself with just how stupid I can be, but I can't think of anytime in my life where I've amazed myself in a good way.

I tend to view my good accomplishments as nothing more than doing that which I should have done anyway. I.e., if I do the right thing, and do it well, it's simply a matter of something that I should have done, and if you're going to do something, you should do it to the best of your ability. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Had an interesting discussion with MP last night, and figured I'd share it here.

She's workig part time (3 PM - 8 PM), and had some grocery shopping to do, so got hom around 10. We got the kids to bed, and I asked her if she was hungry. She said yes, so I offered to get her something to eat.

This is nothing new - I do this routinely, and I'm happy to do so (as I've told her many times in our relationship, if I'm not willing to do something, I usually won't offer. Doesn't mean I like doing it, but if I offer I'm willing).

She accepted, and then started a dicussion. I don't remember exactly how it started, but the jist of it was that she wanted to know if I felt she was taking advantage of my willingness to do this for her (which I didn't), and if I felt that she should be doing the same for me (she doesn't offer to get me food often, and it's not an issue for me anyway. I'm a big boy, I can fetch my own food <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I asked her what prompted the question, and as I understand it, one of the things she's been reading in "The Excellent Wife" is that a wife's husband should be her primary ministry.

Ah. Wonderful conversation opportunity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I took the opening to share my understanding, perspective, and personal belief on the role of the wife within the scope of a Christian marriage.

I said that I can understand what the author was driving at. To me, the author was saying that the wife's husband should be her #1 priority in life (well, #2, after God). This I agree with, even though it flies in the face of some people who believe kids should be the #1 priority.

I believe, and always have, that while the kids definately need to be a priority, the husband and wife's relationship needs to be higher than the kids, because it's the health of that relationship (IMO) from which the health of the family (and by extension the kids) gets its primary direction.

Not being shy of talking, once I get going, I expounded further on HB's personal understanding of Ephesians 5. A lot of people take umbrage when Paul tells wifes to "be submitted to your husbands." The word submission, in our culture, has a lot of negative connotations.

However, if you look at the Greek word that is translated as submission, you will find that it means something along the lines of "To line up under." That is an organizational definition, not a definition of who's better than who. (Thanks to Mortarman for his Husbands and Wives Role thread, where I think I got that definition from).

This does not mean, to me, that the wife has to wait on her husband hand-and-foot and cater to his every whim and desire (a la June Cleaver). In fact, I don't want that in a wife. I want a partner, an equal, not a doormat or a servant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And MP knows that.

So I told MP that I didn't expect her to wait on me hand-and-foot. I appreciated and enjoyed those times she does something extra for me, but I don't go around expecting her to do everything for me.

I felt it was an enjoyable conversation. It was a chance for MP to share some thoughts with me, and for me to share what I thought about it and what I wanted. It was a short discussion, but very (for me at least) enjoyable.

The simple fact of the matter is that I enjoy doing things for my wife. I'm trying to learn to do things for her that she wants, rather than (as in the past) doing things for her that were really a reflection of what I would expect, but that's part of the whole learning process in marriage.

I've often joked that if the wife/mother isn't happy, no one is happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I have to admit, being able to do things that make MP happy or feel appreciated makes me happy as well.

Well, HB...

It done sound like you had a good conversation with MP...I see that you have come a long way...and I just want to wish you continued success...

Take care and I'll look forward to hearing from you...

Had a good weekend, even though I worked most of it (had to figure out why the database was timing out one of my queries...what a pain).

Anyway, Saturday night MP was working on one of our computers that had stopped behaving properly (i.e., wasn't working). She got it up and running again after reinstalling the OS, and had to reload a bunch of drivers.

She had had to fix one of the drivers a while back, and was trying to remember how she'd found the right one on the manufacturer's website. Then she remembered...OM had helped her find it.

I'm not exactly sure what look I had on my face, but it seemed to prompt her to start explaining why OM had helped her find it (this was during the A, not after). The look I was trying to express was something along of the lines of "And I care about this why?"...in any case, it seemed like as she was explaining why OM had helped her she seemed to be kind of winding down, like a tape being played with dying batteries <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She finally said "I'll stop now." and I simply said "Thank you." Then she got up, came over to me, and gave me a kiss <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At least she still recognizes my feelings, and seems willing to protect them to one degree or another.

Later last weekend she was telling me she had talked to one of her friends that she only talks to a few times a year. She said that talking to her friend made her realize how lucky she is to have me (at least in some ways) - her friend has 2 small children, and her husband doesn't help out with them. She can't get away for even a night because her husband would have no clue what to do.

On the other hand, I've always been very good about giving MP time away from the kids, and I know she appreciates that. It was nice to hear that she considers herself lucky (at least in this area).

Of course, I had a bit of an HB Ego Moment when she said this...one of my first thoughts was "Of course you're lucky...I'm still here after all the crap you pulled."

Alas, I don't think she's quite at that point in her recovery yet.

Then again, I'm not even sure that's a proper thought for me to have. I mean, I'm still here because a) I love her, and b) I felt, and still feel, that it is my responsibility to do everything I can to make this marriage work. I don't (and never have) see where doing what I know to be right is any cause for celebration or elevation of my status as anything other than an average human being <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anway, all in all a good weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I'm thinking I've discovered a pattern about myself that probably needs to change if I want to continue to do my part in our recovery.

Situation example. Last night, MP got home from work (she's working an evening shift right now). I had gotten home late as well, so dinner was just done when she walked in (she fixed it, I cooked it).

I had had a job interview that morning that seemed to go well, and I really have an interest in the position. I was all eager to talk to her about it some more (we had talked briefly that afternoon).

It was her turn to do DD's bedtime routine (we try to alternate every day, though sometimes one of us will get back-to-back for one reason or another). She sat down and got immersed in doing some stuff on her computer...when that happens, conversation with her becomes difficult.

I was rather miffed because I was feeling ignored, and she was dragging her feet in getting our daughter started on the bedtime routine (well, IMO she was). In fact, I got DD started on it.

I decided that conversation at this point was fruitless - as in, I'd get rapidly annoyed trying to get antyhing more than a nod or one word answer out of her in short order. So I moved on to working on filling out the application the company gave me at the start of the interview (rather odd...I submitted my resume online, got a phone screen on Friday followed by an in-person interview yesterday, and now they give me an app to fill out? Is this good, bad or indifferent?).

She finally got DD started on bedtime routine (neither of us had eaten at this point), after a brief interruption of a phone call (from her cousin). She commented that I probably felt ignored, and I think I gave her a non-comittal shrug or brushed it off.

She got DD down and came down to eat, then we went to bed. She asked me what was wrong, and I told her I just had a lot of things on my mind.

Part of me was annoyed to the point of indifference, simply because earlier this week she had commented that I had let the fires of intimacy die way down. Leaving aside the fact that I view keeping the fires going as a joint responsibility (which I pointed out the night she said that), I felt that last night's activities proved my point. She didn't seem interested in actively engaging me in conversation or otherwise wanting my attention, and I'm certainly not going to force my attention on her.

Ok...so there's the non-Cliff Notes version.

So what does this has to do with my realization? I can see a pattern in myself. When I want something from her (conversation, companionship, whatever) and don't get it, I tend to shut down and withdraw. Rather than making it clear what I want from her, I leave her to figure it out on her own.

Of course, this is a double-standard. I get upset with her for expecting me to know what she wants, and have asked her to be explicit in what it is she needs or wants if I don't seem to be getting a clue. She can't read my mind any better than I can read hers.

Makes me wonder if this is simliar to PA behavior. I don't get what I want or expect, yet I don't make my expectations clear, and then I get angry because I didn't get what I wanted. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm not sure what my point is, if I have one. Just more of an observation and something I should probably spend some time contemplating.

None of this should be construed as a bad thing (bad as in an immediate threat to our recovery). Merely an issue that needs to be addressed. I should work on finding my voice, otherwise I'm going to have a lifetime full of unmet expectations simply because I wouldn't engage my tongue in vocal speech. And if you knew me in person (or have read enough of my posts), you know I can talk and talk and talk....which does not necessarily equate to actually saying anything of note or value <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HB, here you go with that AWESOME awareness again...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so happy to see you.

Now, tell me why you lied to your wife?

And why did you slash yourself at the end of your post?

You know me...just gotta know...

LA

Hi LA -


Self-protection. Habit. Desire to avoid conflict. Honestly, she wants me to be emotionally open, to share what's on my mind, but even when I take pains to do it in a safe manner, it usually backfires on me.

Prime example from last night. I had been thinking about my greates EN/Love Language - Quality Time. It's been an issue for me since we were dating (she already had her son). What makes QT great for me is when she takes the initiative to plan something (beyond just calling and getting a sitter). When she puts forth effort to plan things, it makes me feel loved, desired, appreciated, valued.

I shared this with her last night. Not to attack her, but to let her know some things I had been thinking about and discovering about myself, in the hope that it could help us continue to recover.

Her initial response was that we had a busy summer. Which was true. I told her (I hope this wasn't an DJ) to let me put the shoe on the other foot...if she was feeling starved for physical attention, and brought this to my attention, and I said "Well, we've had a busy schedule", how would she feel?

She agreed that she wouldn't feel good. She was pretty silent after I shared, and I asked her what was on her mind. She said conflicting thoughts, and she'd share when she got them sorted out. Then she went upstairs to go to bed, without even saying goodnight.

OK. Well, that went well, didn't it? I worked on keeping calm, and then went upstairs myself. She did before climbing into bed start my clothes in the dryer, which I appreciated (I do all my own laundry, a good deal of the household laundry and a good deal DD's laundry, along with a lot of other household chores, which is another grip I have that I'll get to).

We did devotions, and then I shared one more thing with her. I asked her to pray for me, because I'm in a vulnerable spot right now. Yesterday was the 1-year anniversiary of D-Day, and it's eating at me more than I thought it would. It's creating an environment for me where it's easier for me to get angry (last weekend was not good, even with a date).

She told me that she knew it had been a year, and had wondered if that was part of what was bothering me last weekend. She said it's been tough for her too. I asked her if there was anything I could do to help, and she said she didn't know.

She won't let me in. She won't open up to me. She won't share with me. When I share with her, I'm making myself vulnerable to her. I had hoped that when I shared my d-day issues with her that she would ask me how she could help. But she didn't.

And that's what's really driving me nuts right now. It's been a year. I feel like I'm doing all the work, and she's sitting there evaluating me and maybe, if I'm real lucky and real good, she'll fully recommit to the marriage at some point in the future.

I'm beginning to think about taking a page from Rinder's and FNM's book. I'm not sure if MP understands that in my eyes, while our recovery is quite doable, it is by no means guaranteed. I know what I want, and I will settle for nothing less. I want a wife who loves me, who values me, who puts me above everyone else, including our own kids, who will support me in the decisions I make regarding the family.

If she can't give that to me, I will not stay. That situation fits my definition of a loveless marriage, and I would rather my kids grow up in a broken home than see their dad sticking around in a relationship where the other person doesn't want them.

At the extreme end of this would be a complete severance of our relationship. Not even friends. Co-parents yes, but that's it.

I would simply revert back to being a bachelor, except I'd have kids this time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am in this for the long-haul, and as I've told others, it's this or nothing. I will not open myself up to anybody else on this level again. This risk is simply too great, and the reward (or what I've seen of it) is too little.

I do not need to be married to be happy.

We have counseling again (finally) this Thursday. I want to bring up my issues, since I feel very much that most "counselor" type people we talk to view me as the bad husband and MP as the long-suffering perfect wife driven to an affair by my neglect. I'm done apologizing. I've owned what is mine to own, and am working to correct my deficiencies. Take me as I am, a work in progress, or leave me be. It's really that simple.

My issues? It boils down to 2. Both of these have been present our entire marriage. I've expressed these multiple times to MP. Just as she has expressed her issues to me multiple times. The difference now, IMO? I'm trying to address the issues she has with me, but I don't feel she's trying to address the issues I have with her.

1. Quality time. Specifically, her taking initiative to arrange and plan dates, or special things for me. At this point, it's not even all that important if it happens or not, because I realize plans can fall through. When she takes the effort to plan and organize things for me and her, it makes me feel loved, appreciated, valued, etc. (I said that already, didn't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

The last time I can remember MP planning something big was in Feb 2003....3-1/2 years ago!!! It fell through at the last minute, because my sister got sick. I was very disappointed, and didn't handle it well, but I'm getting better at handling disappointment (since it seems to be a prevalent factor in my life right now).

A more recent example? My birthday in September. This is something I was going to share with her last night, but decided I'd done enough sharing, so it can wait.

I was very hurt and dissapointed by my birthday, or lack thereof, last September. For the second year in a row, MP made plans to do something on my birthday that were not related to my birthday. It's not a big deal in that she mad plans, but that she did so without so much as giving a thought to the fact that it's my birthday. This year, I pointed it out to her - the result? We had a joint "birthday" party with another friend who's birthday is close to mine. We did nothing as a family, and no recognition of my birthday. I did get a "birthday" meal (though I don't recall it being labeled as such), and MP gave me a couple of books that I wanted, but that was it. No card (that hurt the most...I like cards), no cake, no gathering of family (Annette and kids) to sing Happy Birthday...no cards or anything from the kids. I felt very much like an afterthought.

Issue 2. Lack of support for my decisions regarding direction for the family. When I set a direction for the family, especially with her input, and then she doesn't do her part to follow through on it, I feel like she's only willing to let me be the leader if it suits what she wants to do. I'm left feeling like I have to do it all myself - be it schedules, chores, or whatever. If my wife is unwilling to follow my lead, how can I expect our children to?

Several years ago, I institued a weekly rotating chore list that I thought MP agreed to. Everybody had a certain set of chores, and it rotated weekly. The idea was that we all live in the house, we can all contribute to maintenance and cleanliness. I finally gave up on it when even MP wouldn't do her assigned chores. I'm not talking a missed day here or there, but several days in a row, multiple times. How can I discipline the kids when my wife won't even follow my lead?

More recently, MP was upset with DS for not doing dishes (again), so she put him on Kitchen duty for the month of November. I updated and clarified the Kitchen Duty Check List so he could follow it, and we could check it. It's a nightly activity, though the actual amount of work varies from night to night. Last night he didn't do the Kitchen chores, choosing to watch TV instead. I pointed it out to MP when she got home from work, and said my inclination was to say nothing, but put him on TV punishment for a month (he just got off 2 weeks for not doing dishes). He came downstairs a little later while I was putting DD to sleep, and told MP that he knew he had dishes to do, but was tired and wanted to do them tomorrow after school. She told him to do it in the morning. Well, he put dishes away, but that's it. I have no idea what MP intends to do, and really don't even feel like asking.

I did express to her my disagreement with her decision, again trying to be safe. I said that at the age of 12, it's past time for him to learn responsibility, that chores come before play, and that I'm not inclined to cut him any slack in this at this time.

I honestly think that she's willing to let me lead only when it suits her. I will not remain in a relationship where my authority is neutered. I will not fight another adult over and over on the same issues. She's even said I don't seem to want to be a leader - more like a dictator. I disagree...I act like a dictator because trying to lead this family has gotten me nowhere. I can lead with active or passive rebellion from the person who's supposed to be my helpmate.

I'm tired. I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and I've got more stuff to do at work than I have hours in a day. I feel that I'm the one who has been betrayed, but everyone is looking at me to buck up and soldier on and quit complaining about whatever MP has or hasn't done, because obviously it pales in comparison to whatever I did that drove her to have an A.

There are bright spots. It's not all gloom. She does express concern for me, though at times I wonder what drives the concern (i.e., genuine concern, or she doesn't want me getting worn down and/or angry; self-concern). I do see some signs that she's willing to step up and do her part, but I still feel a very heavy burden that it all devolves onto my shoulders to get things going and keep them going.

I am only one person. I cannot do this alone.

I also worry that she's having a tough time with D-Day as well. I worry for the simple (and probably wrong) reason that she may be having second thoughts, or may be more prone to attempt to initiate contact. I do not believe that there has been any contact since June. I don't snoop that much anymore, and the times I do the "spot-checks" show me that things seem to be going ok. I did discover an e-mail address that I didn't know about, but it appears to not be used, and when it was created we had just gone through a very rough time (probably the roughest) in our recovery.

I know what I want. And I want MP to step up and start doing her part. I want (and I told her this last night) for us to reach a point where we can share whatever is on our mind with each other, in a safe environment. I'm trying (and failing occasionally) to do that, and I don't feel safe sharing with her because she gets defensive, sullen, withdrawn and/or won't validate my feelings. I've told her she doesn't have to agree with me, but at least acknowledge my feelings as real to me.

And this doesn't even touch the repentance/remorse subject (I actually owe FH and others a response on that thread, but I've got to get back to work).

Thanks for letting me vent.


Hmm...I didn't notice any blood loss <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Why? I don't know. Because I can. Because I'm the best target for self-deprecating humor I know (is that an oxymoronic statement or what?). Because I refuse to take myself seriously since life doesn't? Becauase I knew you'd ask that question if I did? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm having a bad day....the kind of day were I want to be spiteful. Unsafe healingbird alert! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know I need to get over worrying about MP's reactions to my honest and open sharing....her reactions are hers to own. Besides, she wanted me to be emotionally honest (told you I was being spiteful).

Let's assume that the rule of thumb here - that it takes as long to recover from an affair as the affair itself - is true. If I base the length of the affair from first contact to last contact, it's about 11 months. We're 5 months into NC, to the best of my ability to verify. That means I have another 6 months of crap...and then what? I'm pretty sure that after the magic period (whatever it is) that things aren't going to be all rosy.

One of the things that gets me is that MP wants me to be strong. To need her, but not be needy (that's a hard concept to wrap my head around, btw). I feel that she doesn't view me as strong. Personally, I'm still here, I'm still working at...wouldn't that count as strong? I could have cut and run - she gave me every reason to. I could have set out to completely destroy her (and OM). I chose to stick it out through the middle of the worst storm of my life.

Hmm....ready for a radical departure? MP just called to say dinner was ready, and we chatted a bit. Just talking to her (when it's not a "heavy" discussion) brightens my day. Now I feel guilty for venting. I'm beginning to think I'm schmuck.

My DD just called. She wants to have lunch tomorrow with me and mommy at work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These things make me happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hearing my wife say "I love you" is always cool too. Now I'm less spiteful. Told you I was schmuck - now I've proved it too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, the real reason I was writing this post (now that you've been so harshly exposed to a minute in HB's life) was to discuss the issue of NC.

No, NC has not been broken. However, OM and I knew each other from a recreational hobby that we both engaged in over the internet. It's a fairly large community, though the area we overlapped in is fairly small. We were both well known within that group, even though a good deal of us have never met personally.

I pulled out of that hobby back in December and resigned my staff position with the company (without naming names or even giving details). I do stay in occasional touch with some of the other people, and recently asked one of the guys I know if I could observe an event he was running (not being in a position or even having a real desire to participate at this moment in time). There are 3 other players observing as well.

Yep...you guessed it. BEF (****** Ex-Friend) was on the e-mail distribution. I e-mailed the guy running the event (who is also a friend of BEFs and doesn't know what happened, unless BEF told him, and I highly doubt that) and asked him to remove me from the list (I can observe via other methods). I didn't tell him why, though I assured him it was nothing against him or the community.

So now I'm in a quandry (and no, I haven't mentioned this to MP yet). On the one hand, it's a hobby I'd like to return to in the future (nowhere near as much as I used to, because I had placed it higher than MP, which wasn't good). And I'd like to add that I'll only return to active participation with MP's agreement. If she says no, then no it is.

On the other hand, I have the chance to run into (virtually speaking) BEF, and I'd really rather not.

So...do I tuck my tail between my legs like a whipped dog and go home, or do I mark my territory and do my best to minimize contact with BEF? I have to say if it's the former I really resent that, simply because that means (to my way of thinking) that MP's A has cost me the only hobby I actively pursued.

Do I bring the whole thing up with MP, even with the risk of bringing memories she's trying to bury to the surface?

And if you're wondering why I didn't expose to that community, it was mainly because I didn't think it would have any effect in ending the affair, as the affair was already dying and closer-to-home exposures hadn't done a whole lot. I didn't want to create a scene that wasn't necessary. Don't get me wrong - if things hadn't started looking up, I would have exposed. Definately would have been interesting to see the effects <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I should say, in regards to my previous post, that I am more than willing to leave forever my old hobby to preserve my marriage. It's a price I'm willing to pay for MP's A. Just in case that wasn't clear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((Spiteful HB or Marvelous HB)))

"Let's assume that the rule of thumb here - that it takes as long to recover from an affair as the affair itself - is true. If I base the length of the affair from first contact to last contact, it's about 11 months. We're 5 months into NC, to the best of my ability to verify. That means I have another 6 months of crap...and then what? I'm pretty sure that after the magic period (whatever it is) that things aren't going to be all rosy."

Uhm, you're assuming that recovery takes as long as the affair? My DH's affair was 8 weeks...it has taken us two years. Harley says recovery from an affair takes roughly two years. Withdrawal is based on length of an affair.

Not recovery.

Okay, so five months into withdrawal, MP is doing what exactly?

You had a slip in perspective...welcome to the human race. And you're still wrestling with your own stuff, which came from a lifetime, as well as the stuff that came from her A.

Could the slip be a hurry up and get this over with?

Very reasonable, HB.

Calling yourself names again, are ya? Hmmm...wonder if that feeds your perception slips...as well as you KNOWING you're strong...and wanting something from MP to verify you are? That she sees you as strong...which would be what exactly?

What words or actions do you need from her? Get specific, not schmucky (and you aren't).

As for the hobby...why haven't you shared about your desire to return moderately to the hobby, to observe...your fear about running virtually into BEF? The actions you already took to remove your name from that particular email list?

Radical Honesty isn't limited to feelings...it includes all aspects of your life.

Why would protecting yourself, your marriage, MP and your integrity be seen as tucking your tail between your legs? Goes right to you believing you are strong and worrying about how you appear...same pole on your staircase, HB. Knowing what you are not and knowing what you...strong enough to protect marital and personal boundaries and open enough to share that protection with MP.

That's how you build your own confidence, self-respect and esteem. Trusting self goes a long way to trusting marriage and your partner.

Why the DJ to MP trying bury memories, btw?

And maybe...you've reached the part where you deal with BEF betrayal...separate from MP...the direct connection...get to the kernel of that pain...not MP causing all of it...the half of your trust for this man, his audacity and lack of respect for your friendship?

Maybe you could only get to now, to spiteful, because you KNOW MP is on your side, in your marriage, fully half...and she loves you...she chose you...and is safe to be shared with...

Hmmm.

Healing takes two full years, at least...for this double betrayal...which is wrapped in a hobby you put above MP for a time...and won't again (I believe you)...it's layered, HB. Not simple.

And your vents are worth seeing...helps me and others. In ways you can't control!

Now, back to your previous post I didn't see until now:

"Self-protection. Habit. Desire to avoid conflict. Honestly, she wants me to be emotionally open, to share what's on my mind, but even when I take pains to do it in a safe manner, it usually backfires on me."

What does backfire on you mean? Are you sharing to get a certain or possible response, and when you don't get it, you believe your sharing, your choice to be Open and Honest gives you negative results?

Are you sharing from your code?

You see her as not letting you in. Right after you quoted exactly how she let you in...not to fix, but to know. She said she had conflicting thoughts, could see where her rebuttal to your sharing didn't seem reasonable and promised to share, also, when she got her thoughts straight. Just as your lie was automatic, habit, CA...so, too, are her habits...to refute, change reality, feel your pain or fear...and she's feeling safe enough to share "not right now because I'm jumbled" rather than "Nothing. I'm fine. I'm wrong." She did an act of love, too, before your devotion, addressing another issue you have in a quiet way.

Also, tiny DJ..."She agreed that she wouldn't feel good." Can you take out the "agree" part? She wouldn't feel good if the shoe was on the other foot. Agreeing/disagreeing are trigger words for you, I believe. Agreeing=protection; disagreeing (feeling/thinking/believing differently)=fear. Vulnerability. Which in reality, you're vulnerable sharing your own stuff insofar as you share it...disagreeing is not any more of a threat to who you are, owning your own stuff than agreeing is...know this about yourself. It is the act of sharing which is vulnerable, not the response.

Like the ILYS, the calls, the confirmation of attention (phone calls are QT, too), words of affirmation, communication...and her listening to you...hearing you...that's QT, too.

Remember to review your own ENs...if what you are desiring has to be done in a certain way, with the right attitude, and at a certain time, then that's not having your ENs met...not being open to knowing they are being met, right now, in the best way your partner can offer without resentment, feeling controlled, engulfed or consumed.

Hmmm?

And like you, she's THERE. She's as strong as you are...she's sticking this through, too...equally, you're both there...learning side by side. Which is awesome.

And she's there though she KNOWS you judge her performance, her response...which is a huge ouch in my book. No safety in sharing with that response in mind. (Your "Well, that went well, didn't it?") Sarcasm is abusive, toots.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's not me telling you that you're wrong...we slant our own perception for a reason...inside, we believe that is serving what we want...check what you want out carefully...hear your own self-talk...narrow down that damaging voice you have in your head and hear what it's saying, urging, maybe in the form of warning or guidance...to see where your perception slip is giving you this...for what false payoff, 'k?

MP spending QT with you, making plans and adjustments for you to do so isn't unreasonable. I'm not saying that. I'm asking you to examine your hidden detail expectations (if you have any) and also, if you're craving QT more because you do perceive her as less O&H...because the two do not equate outright. QT can be RC time...FC time...focused listening...side by side experiencing...lots of stuff...so know what you desire, why and what it symbolizes for you.

My deep desire for conversation (life long craving) has dropped sharply...from huge to less than average need...because my DH volunteers so much of his thoughts and feelings as we go...my deep need of UA has dropped as well...I remain full of O&H (and that's me doing it, as well) from him, in several small bites a day (as well as by phone), and that used to be my biggie...until his O&H became very reliable and then my QT need, alertness and awareness dropped way down.

Just a thought...not telling you you're doing it wrong. Sharing how entrenched I was in noticing what I didn't have...the way I wanted it, when and how I wanted it done...tripped over abundance with both feet. I did that.

Rely on God bringing you what your heart desires most...I believe he did that for me. See, my DH has feared being known his whole life...I greatly added to it by my digging...but it was there, already. Takes God's work in him, with his choice to fear and speak anyway, to get where you're well on your way toward...and your ENs shift and change. God gave me a precursor, though, when WH and I did the EN Questionnaires two years ago...and he said, "This is a no brainer. O&H has to be number one or none of the rest matter, do they?" Very unlike LA response, while God held my elbow, was not judging that statement, throwing it back, laughing or looking incredulous...I said, "I believe that, also" and marked my #1 as O&H. And I waited for it...tuned in my desire and my ear to hear it...not judge...let go the response...self-focus and know when I slipped in my perception, that was my signal to me that my focus was slipping back onto DH and off from what I controlled...me.

You've got a lot of hidden expectations in you, HB...they remain...they fester and urge...know them. Be aware of them. What is hidden loses power when you become aware...it is the first step of self-acceptance to know...to see...in the light...clarity...not perfection.

Do you set up MP to fail your expectations? Your question, "What can I do to help you?" is an engulfing statement...has a back to that loving message..."You need help." I don't think you're hearing both sides of the message. And you set her up to not ask you by not hearing that back-handed message. A put down. All you heard was the love...and she knows you from years and years, HB, and has felt pressured, obligated, eggshelled by your requirements, your hidden expectations. Get them where you both can see them to be safe.

And if this isn't what you were doing...expecting her to reciprocrate in the way you wanted, with the words you wanted...when she acknowledged, admitted she had wondered, said she had not shared with you...lots of O&H in what she actually did say...then know you are tuned into specific fulfillment...which will not build one iota of self-confidence, respect or trust. Each time, it will fracture, peel and remove parts of what you already have. Because you're in that giving to get with a splash of manipulation.

Not bad or wrong...just know what you expect, why you expect it and if you're stating your needs or manuevering for them.

Hmmm?

When I craved O&H the most, I was giving it the least.

And if you feel evaluated, check to see if you're evaluating her response, her phrasing, timing and packaging.

Only these things are within your control.

Oh, and what you called her on, about her response of busy schedule, has a name. It's mitigating. Mitigating your feelings is abusive. Mitigating doesn't acknowledge, it refutes. So without looking at what exactly the mitigation was, widen your lense to know that any mitigation is refutation, telling you that your perception, feelings, thoughts or beliefs are wrong or in the wrong proportion. Maybe MP was trying to say, "I feel like I failed you. I can accept failing you a little, but not that much. That's too big. Make it smaller." She may hear you saying you failed her...that wasn't what you were saying (that I heard)...you were talking about right now, where your concern and desire was...and you were doing it respectfully.

Where was your proactivity with DDay, darlin? Seriously...you saw that date looming for a month ahead of time...surely...and yes, I'm calling you Shirley.

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Where was your own O&H..."I am feeling strong emotions as 11/05 approaches, and that sucks, because 11/07 is LA's birthday and she's in Denver...and she keeps talking about both of those."

You know what I mean...as your feelings and thoughts occur, share them. That would have helped MP with DDay, with her fear of upsetting you as the date approached, the leaves turned in the annoying same way...lots of replays going on in tiny ways...helping is being present, hearing, and holding your fear and listening anyway.

For you both. Validates both of you. Your stuff. Acknowledges reality and has a lot of acceptance in both.

When you view your choices this way, do you feel that you are doing all the work, or does it give you a different emotion?

Uhm, there's no answer key here.

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And then you go ripping into the future...if she can't give that to me then...that ol' if-then statement, eh? You know what that lacks? If-when? By when? What's your deadline? Yesterday? Can you see anything incrementally changing...which is valid change...to indicate she will or won't give you? She's fully capable...totally her choice...and from what you quoted in your posts, she is giving you O&H...and trusting you enough to be able to not have the answers instanteously...not to make stuff up, not to lie out of habit...but to trust you enough to say, "I'm working on that and I'll get back to you."

Is this something she's done a lot, pre-A? Promised to share and then didn't? You replaying a lot of yank-backs in your life...from caretakers, friends, siblings...where they break their promise to share...that "I've got conflicting thoughts I want to sort out" is code for "I ain't telling you" or it may feel that way?

What does letting you in really mean to you? Having other walls, not around yourself, to hold you? Giving you access to fix or to know? Because you described a lot of scary sharing she's done (high levels for HER), so I'm a little confused.

And WOW...how does her only sharing as much as she is right now translate into her not wanting you?

You use the word extreme and that's what I felt full force.

You're in the middle now...learning to share and be shared with...new ground, no contact...higher vision and deeper commitment to having a thriving marriage...wow, you went in your head and experienced a ton of negative emotions, harsh pain and trauma, resentment and anger...by allowing your mind to go into a future you have no clue is real or not...and won't know...for another year. Why did you emotionally cut like that?

And have you shared with MP? "I have extreme reactions. I go into the future and experience it as if it's real, when it's not. I'm struggling to find my payoff. I feel very <blank>, <blank> and <blank> about you when I do that."

When you wanted her to ask what she could do for DDay blues...I think you were leaning toward the ultimate, which is you heal each other of lifetime stuff in marriage. Can't do that single, btw. Has to be in a relationship. And it won't be like bachelorhood...because every woman you date, dates your family...endangers your kids and will recreate the same issues, again, which you had with MP.

I know. I read "Getting the love you want." ROFL. Now I AM a know it all.

It's bone-eh-fide.

"We have counseling again (finally) this Thursday. I want to bring up my issues, since I feel very much that most "counselor" type people we talk to view me as the bad husband and MP as the long-suffering perfect wife driven to an affair by my neglect. I'm done apologizing. I've owned what is mine to own, and am working to correct my deficiencies. Take me as I am, a work in progress, or leave me be. It's really that simple."

Wowsers...why in the world have you DJ'd counselors by typing them, and then wrapping this stereotype around their necks? Equal ownership of pre-A problems...which I believe you have a great handle on the real obvious stuff...the subtle persistent stuff (hidden expectations, false payoffs, etc.) is what I'm asking you to examine now. Add big ol' DJs to that, too.

Okay, so that was coming from your vent...and I'm asking you to trace that vent, that choice of perspective, belief...and find the false payoff in it. Why did you EVER believe you were more than half of the marriage? You can't have a bigger problem than half, can you? And you can't be a bigger solution, can you? Half. What was your payoff in believing you were seen as more than half?

Reach back to childhood to find the male role model who taught you that...or if a female one handed you that false belief and made it very believable?

And you're half of your unmet EN for QT and consideration (attention) for planning. She planned something else on your bday...and you didn't say, "Ouch!" the moment she told you? Lying reaps great pain, builds huge resentment and distorts reality. And that's you doing it to you. Lying by OMISSION is lying. Not saying to be gracious when you are keeping score (carefully, as I used to do)...monitoring, evaluating, judging and recording...lots of energy. Put that energy, instead, into addressing right now (which would have been back when she made plans)..."Ouch!"

I dare you to be as brave as you truly are.

And I do know about shared bdays...I used to combine my DH's with a family friends each year...I would plan, throw parties, or dinner parties...or family dinner out parties...and he has not ever planned a get-together for mine. I know. I was a scorekeeper. Want to know what happened today? I called DH (who had wished me happy bday last night and held my hand) for some paperwork we needed on our house, and he said he'd bring it to my work. Well, he called when he was on his way and asked me to lunch. Old LA still thought, "He must be hungry. Down, Fido." and I said, "Sure, that would be fun, honey." We haven't gone out to lunch in ages (I quit counting).

I was having a fine day because I really have stopped expecting without sharing...and he came to work, brought the papers, took me to a really nice restaurant and gave me gifts. Just me. My YS and I share my bday, so I haven't had a separate one in 17 years.

Wowsers!!! Thoughtful gifts, attention, sharing and I was blown away. He said, "I'm sorry. I didn't get you a card." And I realized how MUCH I didn't care...the lunch alone was incredible...the presents (in gift bags) were amazing and his smile, his delight at my delight...all authentic and fun...and then I blew myself away, because on the drive back to the office, he sang aloud to Elton John...which is a rare and glorious thing in my world (him singing)...and I cherished that above all. That's how I know scorekeeping, expectation hiding and withholding kill love...because I wouldn't have heard, loved, held his singing and known it to be a gift to me if I permitted myself to do any one of those things anymore. For me.

Like permitting yourself all these things, including sarcasm, self-deprecating humor and self-slashing are all part of the same package of permissions...and they get in the way of your thriving...with anyone.

LA