I got the book "relationship rescue" by Dr. Phil.

I read a bit and found it quite interesting.....

Anyone else read it?

Daisy

daisy

perhaps you shouldn't say "what is your plan" since it sounds like it's all up to him and what HE wants. (imho)

maybe "what are your intentions?" or "what do you hope to see happen?" "where are you hoping to see things go with us?"

or something similar?

eav..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your sugestions. This is why I am taking my time to reply. I don't want to scare him off, I just want to know what his intentions are.......

I got lots of questions. I decided to write them all down and I'll ask those in person. I just don't know how to procede exactly.......

My friend said he is in for a shock. No beating around the bush for me. I ain't a mind reader!

I got to make that plan before I can execute it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

dear whitedaisy..

again I ask
what is it that you want...

what type of marriage do you envision having

what is realtistic about that vision
what is not


what do you want...

what I see is someone a little excited to respond...
mostly to a bunch of babble...not fog babble...just babble enough to draw a person in...and get lost in a philosophical haze that accomplishes nothing...

and while having that friend or two out there with whom one can wax poetic over such things is fun and enjoyable and valueable...

this is your husband....

what do you want from him....
what do you want yourself...

ARK

White Daisy,

I haven't posted to you before, but I urge you to guard your heart.

Listen to what Ark is saying..think about what you want from your H and whether or not he will be willing to be the H that you deserve.

My impression of your H is that he is very, very immature. He doesn't want to work...well, at least not enough to provide a living; he wants to be able to do what he wants, whenever he wants; and I keep recalling what he wrote in that email you found...that he is willing to live off his wife's income.

In short, while I hate to say it, I think that your H is somewhat of a con artist and bum. He is telling you what he thinks you want to hear so you will keep supporting him financially while letting him do what he wants.

He reminds me of the 25-yo son of friends of ours. This guy has hopped from one thing to the other since he graduated from high school...to keep from having to work. He got a job just long enough for his folks to help him get a new car, then quit his job the next week. Dad would have taken the car away, but Mom wouldn't let him. He caters to his mom because his mom caters to him...and believes every word out of his mouth. Right now, he is supposed to be attending a major university. However, I suspect that he is scamming his parents, because from what his mom told me, his Jr. College GPA wasn't even high enough for him to graduate from the Jr. College, let alone get admitted to his field of study in the university. Oh, and supposedly, he did not want to participate in the graduation exercises at the Jr. college...so there was no graduation to attend. His mom works her butt off to give him $2,000/month plus his car payment, PLUS she deposits "college fees" into his bank account.

Don't be the mom in your relationship. You are his WIFE, and deserve to have an equal partnership in your marriage.

Suppose you tell your H that you've been thinking about what he wrote and that you want the same things he does. That you're gonna quit your job so you can have time to do whatever you like...hey, you can spend all your time reading together! Then, see what he says.

daisy

i'd advise you to decide what you want

it's OKAY to love someone even if they don't bring in a big income or even know what they want to be when they grow up!!

as long as you're okay with it-that's all that matters

my H thought he'd be happy to have someone who only woks part time (or less) and has lots of time to spend paying attention to him

he thought he wouldn't mind sharing someone with her kids...

i suspect that he's discovered that he's not okay with the amount of money he has to live on with only one and a little extra incomes......he really didn't know what that would belike in his "fantasy life" he planned to live

i wouldn't be surprised if he's not too happy sharing OW with her kids...and his house with them and his very little income with them.....the fog didn't let him see that too clearly either

(he couldn't even stand to have family members with kids visit for more than a few days)

so he hadn't lived the life he was getting but still thought he would "find his happiness"

it seems that your life with your H wouldn't be much different as far as income and his work ethics go would it?

If you're okay with that.....it's up to you....financial support doesn't seem to be one of YOUR greatest emotional needs....IMHO

so if that's the case.....then you can decide what kind of relationship you require from him as far as meeting the emotional needs that ARE important to you

then you can find out IF and HOW he plans to meet them before deciding if he is worth the effort and risk he wants you to take

ps
these are just MY thoughts and remember i usually think differently than many others!!

You are his WIFE and you deserve a HUSBAND...

It is NORMAL and EXPECTED for a HUSBAND to be committed and concerned about PROVIDING for his WIFE and future FAMILY...

IMO, he needs to evidence a commitment to ALL ASPECTS of being a HUSBAND...in agreement with Lady...

I would make that clear to him in any communication with him. I would not skirt around the issue....referring to your concern about saying "US"...

Seems like to me that if you are not CLEAR AND OPEN with him that he will try to begin to engage you in philosophical discussion..like a FRIENDSHIP..

It needs to be made very clear to him, IMO, that you want to be his WIFE..not his FRIEND..and it is your expectation for him to work towards being your HUSBAND...

thank you all for your thoughts.....

Ark....I am actually not eager to reply. BUT, I do have this feeling like I SHOULD reply, like I SHOULD not keep him hanging......


I am organizing my thoughts here about what it is that I WANT!

I WANT A HUSBAND!

I am not interested in him being just my 'boyfriend' or something. We have crossed that bridge and I know now that I would never have accepted some long term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. I want commitment from him to be my H.

I want a commitment to the marriage, not to JUST some FRIENDSHIP. I know that there has to be a friendship in M as well, and I want that, yet I want so much more. I want a partner in my life.

mimi, lady
You are dead on. I expect him to be and act and commit to being a husband. I do expect him to make some effort to provide for his family, because that is what we are, even if there is just the 2 of us.

I don't expect him to make a tun of money. BUT I do expect that we not live "just to get by"....I don't expect him to take care of me, and I don't expect ME to take care of him. I get that not every relationship can be balanced, most of the time, one party makes more then the other, sometimes one is more educated than the other, we all have our assets, and I love the artistic aspect of H very much. However, I know that he would love to have certain things.....I know that HE would love to travel, and that HE would love to have a motocycle, and that HE would love to have a house, and that HE would love to have a tun of book! I don't want to be the only one that works so those dreams are satisfied, and I realize that I cannot be with someone who WILL NOT do something to have those dreams realized. I don't want to count pennies.

I've been there, lived poor, and if I have a choice, I'd rother not live like that. It is not all about money for me, if it was I would have married a man with money, but I cannot say that I want a man that HAS no interest to provide for his family.

We may just have a different definition of what provide means.

H has a lot of good qualities, and I love him dearly still. However, as you point out lady, I cannot and will not be his mother!

I already did that. I did not like it and he did not like it. So, really at this point, it is up to me to realize whether I am willing to accept him into my life. I know however, that I will not be able to move on with my life without talking to him and clearly expressing what I WANT and understanding what he wants. What does HE want from life. What are his goals. What does he want from the M. What kind of job is he talking about (he is a buss boy now and I am not thrilled aobut that. I am having a hard time resolving this issue.....some part of me feels like it should not matter what he does, but it matters to me and now that I read a bit of the book by Dr. Phil, where he says, you got to get real and be honest, cause otherwise you are only cheating yourself and your partner, I am getting real. I don't want a H who is a buss boy.....I see that as a job for a student which is what he was, not for a MAN who is doing what HE must do to provide for his family.

MIMI,
I am in agreement with you. I have to be very CLEAR and upfront with H about MY wants and MY expectations....he is very good at getting philosophical on me, and confusing me in the process.

One of my greatest weaknesses is letting others manipulate me (my family has done this to me for a long time)......


The fact is that H is a dreamer. He always was, I guess I just did not realize how much of a dreamer he was. I did fall in love with him for a reason. He has many qualities that I like. He does bring something to my life that I don't have otherwise.

Yet, I do not want to spend my time with him thinking "if only he would go and do this, or try that."


Is it an LB to tell him that while I am ok with him not wanting to persue an MA (because I am ok with it!), I cannot accept him in my life with the job he has. Frankly, I don't understand how he can respect himself working there. The job market here is good, he should be able to find something......

I never got the impression he was happy there. He told me that one day he would have to examine why he picks these dead end jobs.

I am still doing a lot of thinking. I did not think I would be in this position.

Now I feel like it is up to ME whether this marriage goes forward or not.

I am very weary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will send H an email in the next couple of days. I know that I want to talk to him to make MY position clear. I want a M not some friendship. I want him to know that. It is just a matter of when I choose to talk to him.

I do appreciate all the thoughts. I need to be CLEAR and HONEST about what I want. IF I am not, we will just be in trouble again soon, and by then I'll really have noone to blaim but myself.

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BTW, by PROVIDE, I meant as opposed to USE you. I didn't mean that he needs to provide MORE than you. However, I would think that a HUSBAND..a MAN would have some major interest in taking care of his WIFE. I would not find a man without that interest to be MANLY (for want of a better word) or ATTRACTIVE. Do you, daisy? Excuse me, having visions of.. Cary Grant..John Wayne...Denzel Washington? Oh, my...heart fluttering...

Also, I agree with a FAMILY being defined as the two of you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

mimi.....

EXACTLY! I did feel used many times. H did not want to work much, yet he did like to buy things...like 300$ boots! And the fact that when he left me he EXPECTED me to give him money while he did not want to be with me, that was a major blow to the RESPECT meter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />......

Yes, mimi, I don't understand how he would want to be with me, yet not want to at all provide for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. (It would just seem too selfish to me) It really doesn't make sense to me, becuase if you truely love someone you want the best for them, and I would think you would want to do your darnest so that they have those fuzzy slippers and a cozy fire, etc. (or that pink bra! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Daisy,

I just wanted to let you know that I have been following your thread. I don't know what to tell you, but I do pray that you will have mental clarity in whatever route you take.

((Daisy))

email sounded to me like his head is in clouds and also partially up his [censored].

he wants fun with you...companionship with you...no pressures from life (or you) and to be free...he then tosses in philosophical bull poo in and then says what he likes about you to get you reeled into his hook.

but his whole email is saying that "I want to eat some cake. I don't know what or who I want..maybe some other girl? BUT i don't want pressure to get a job...or responsibility right now. I might want this in the future but for now, I am gonna make MYSELF FEEL GOOD AND BE HAPPY AT EXPENSE OF YOU MY WIFE.

that's what it says to me....inbetween the philosophical crud and compliments.

Jean
Thanks. I am kind of angry today. H hurt me a lot.

peachy....
I have to confess that H is just this type of personallity. Like SH told me. Some people continue like this and spend their whole life like that. They are not the CEOs of the world.

At this point, I have to be firm and clear about what I want in this M. If he cannot give it, that is his loss. I will hear him out, but I will not go back to any form of CAKE eating. No thank you.

I don't know how he imagines his life.......

If he chooses to not work with me, he is just setting himself up for no meaningful relationship in the future. No meaningful relatinship is WITHOUT effort. I wish he would see the rewards, and not just the costs.

Daisy

Daisy,

I am amazed to see how similar your WH's thinking is to mine! My H also said when he moved out 11 months ago (our WH's even left at the exact same week!) that "who knows, I may just want to work part time and learn how to fly..., maybe I am not the "marriage" kind, and our M does not work b/c you want me to work, right?" I was like... ****** YES!

Again, we ALL have certain responsibilities and working is one of them! So if you don't like, you choose not to work?? The money does not grow on the trees! If you don't want to clean the house, you choose not to clean? Then who is going to clean the house? Your WH, like mine, wants a mother. They want a mother who cooks, cleans, and provides for them. And they want unconditional love. If we complain about them being lazy, they feel we do not love them. That's simply very childish.

Remember all the advice I received when I was asking how to respond to my H's request a month ago? In a way, you are in a similar situation. People basically told me to be upfront and let him know what "I" want or expect in our M.

Like you, I felt that I need to get back to him right away, but in the end I waited for a few days, just because I did not know what to say. It is okay for you to respond in a few days. He can wait. YOU waited for this long... This is a very important matter, and if he becomes impatient with you, then again that is a sign that he is being selfish.

WH does not want any pressure from you, that's very clear. But this is the time for you to let him know it is NOT okay with you that he does not even want to provide for his family. He does not have to make a lot, but has to make enough so that you two can live decently. Which should not be too hard, since you are working too. I think if a man is trying and working so hard, yet cannot make enough money - that is a different story. Of course then we would not pressure them. But your WH has the brain and opportunities - he is CHOOSING not to work, that is a totally different story.

In my case, I ended up just responding to H with minimum information in my email but asked him questions when we met in person.

Organize your thoughts... then reply... no need to "rush"...

Milk

Milk:

You have certainly grown immensely over the past year. You don't even sound like the same person.

Good for you on your personal growth!

What a wonderful post from you to Daisy!

Mimi, thank you. The horrible experience I hope not to go through again, certainly has made me stronger. I was very needy and insecure... You all helped me go through this and I am very very grateful!!!

Daisy~
I agree with all here, and your own thoughts as well, about
making it VERY clear to WH what it is you want and need.

Seems like WH likes to be very philosophical and "dreamy"
based on his message to you, but don't let that "draw you
in"- you need to cut through to the basics of what he is
able/willing to do to provide for your family (you two <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,
what he is going to do to get his depression under control,
and what he is going to contribute, specifically, to your
marriage.
I'd also be letting him know, very clearly, that you know
about his contacting past girlfriends and the A. He has to
know that you will not tolerate this behavior, and it needs
to be talked about openly and honestly if there's any chance
of beginning a recovery.

I agree, that you should take your time, think things thru,
and reply when you are ready, with probably minimal info.
I think your idea to write down your questions and thoughts
is great- if you're like me, you can't always remember later
especially if you are nervous or upset.

Your WH, as well as Milk's and mine are so alike in that
they all have an "issue" with not wanting to act like adults
or take any responsibilities !
In the case of my WH, I think much of his came from having
a Mother who did EVERYthing for him so he never had to do
anything for himself. I wasn't there as he grew up, of
course, but in times I've spent with his family since we've
been together, I was amazed (in a bad way) to see the whole
family sit around while his Mom cooked, cleared the table,
did the dishes, did all the housework, did the laundry, ran
the errands, etc.... and they sat around and watched TV.
WH's Mom would even get up in the middle of the night to
make him something to eat when he had been out at a bar- !!
I think they also gave him money when he needed/wanted it,
"bailed" him out when he got in trouble, and have, by lack
of ever showing "backbone", made him think he can do what-
ever he wants without consequences. I'm sure his parents
meant well, but they sure did not do him any favor!!!

It's interesting to me that WH now says "he wants to be
alone, on his own, do his own thing", and says he never had
a chance to do it (which is true), although he did live in
a dorm and/or apartment when in college and has lived alone
in apartments a couple times, which is probably about the
same as most people do- ??? So, I don't know if part of
this desire to be "on his own" is true, or if it's all just
an excuse and cover for the A ?? Almost seems like part of
a "MLC" (as far as wanting to go back and "recapture" part
of his "youth"). One of his therapists at one time told WH
that he was very emotionally inmature, and I'm sure that is
true as well.

Whatever you decide, you have done a good job of finding
strength in yourself and some things you know that you need
and want. I know it's hard to know how to "proceed" since
I'm in the same "boat", trying to figure out what to do with
WH and my PBL.
Slammed

white_daisy

have you ever read the book:"buyer, renter & freeloaders" by Williard F. Harley, jr???

I'm sure it would make alot of sence out of your situation and your WS's last letter............

"yellow flower" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

thank you all....the advice is helpful.....I know of the book "yellow flower" but have not read it...I'll look into it.....


I send H an email earlier. Basically, telling him very briefly that I am thinking about his email and need more information.

His reply was "If there is information I can provide you with to help you consider things, please let me know. "

So, I am thinking......

************************************************************
I have written down several things I would like to know....but I don't want this to be some questionare. I wrote them dowm to focus and organize.

This is what I would like to say:

"I would like to have a stronger, happy, satisfying relationship with you. What we have done in the past did not work. Do you have some thoughts on what action we can take to have a close and happy marraige?

Daisy"


I have several concerns. I hope to address my biggest concern first, which is that that we WORK on the marriage. I don't want to meet with him until I hear some commitment on his part to do things differently WITH me.

Any thoughts?
Is there a better way I can get this across?



Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok,
Is this version better?

"H
I want a satisfying, happy and a strong relationship with you. I realize now that to achieve this will take effort from both of us. I would like to know what action you think we need to take to improve our relationship. It would help me a great deal to know what your thoughts are on this.

Daisy"