Daisy,

I think this is the ultimate question we all BS's want to ask our WS's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My only concern is that since your H sounds like a poetic kind, would he just tell you very abstract answers about building a stronger M instead of coming up with actual "plans"??

But I like that in a sense YOU are not telling him what YOU think needed to be done - let him think.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Milk

[color:"green"]Daisy,

I put in some comments on the take I had on your stbx or ex's letter: [/color]



[color:"green"]So, essentially I break promises and will continue to break them. [/color]



[color:"green"]I will do noting to respect your desire not to see me or hear from me again - I will do what I want regardless. [/color]



[color:"green"]If someone says they are confusing and much worse and selfish - believe them. He says that he has behaved badly but makes no effort to say how he will try to correct that - only that he can't keep quiet about it (selfish). [/color]



[color:"green"]Even though you've misbehaved - I've tried to forget all that and dwell on the positive. He doesn't acknowledge any part he may have had in all the bad memories.[/color]



[color:"green"]This is very sweet - he's bringing up memories of what he finds endearing about you. [/color]



[color:"green"]These are really thinly disguised insults. He is exposing all your inner weaknesses. why would he do that? He also contradicts himself saying he knows you but then saying that you are a mystery to him. [/color]


[color:"green"] Seems like he is trying to say that he tried but you are impossible to reach. How unfair. [/color]



[color:"green"]This is just weird. [/color]



[color:"green"]More weirdness. [/color]



[color:"green"]This is a rather dreary assessment. Maybe his parents were right and he has never been straightforward. Why would you want to live with all these contradictions Daisy? [/color]



[color:"green"]Yippee skippee. Where's the part about how he has been improving himself because he felt he had shortcomings that led to you guys splitting up? [/color]



[color:"green"] No. [/color]



[color:"green"]Go ahead - have at it. [/color]



[color:"green"]Do whatever makes you happy as long as it doesn't involve me having to put up with your lazy unemployed illogical self. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> [/color]



[color:"green"]For what reason? What has changed? [/color]



[color:"green"] Nothing has changed - here he is telling you that he intends to be contradictory, tempermental, and admits he hurt you and still will continue to be the same way. You need to blow him off like a fly. Why do you need this? [/color]



[color:"green"]I don't think anything has changed. You can't start anew if you don't fix the things that broke the relationship in the first place. And that would mean he has to work on himself to figure out why he is so darned contradictory and convoluted. [/color]



[color:"green"] I think he may genuinely miss you Daisy - but he wants to act like nothing happened that was his fault and perhaps pretend like you were just meeting. What does enjoy each other's company mean anyway? Does he want friends with benefits? [/color]


[color:"green"] I wouldn't have responded to this in any way. He has not changed.

V. [/color]

Post deleted by Cherished

thank you all......

You guys point out all my fears. One can look at the letter and see some positives, yet one can look at it and see a lot of negatives.

Yet, I hear all the time here that a WS doesn't come back to the M completely out of the fog. I see this as a process, and I am completely convinced that I cannot change him, and cannot ask him to change. It is all up to him. I want to insure that I give the M every opportunity to save it, however I will not go back to the same old same old. This is why I am taking it slow; I want to feel him out, talk and see what has changed, if anything.

I emailed H and asked him what did he want. Did he want to seriously work on the M.

This is the email I got back


It still sounds like a lot about him. He is bringing up the issues and does acknowledge things that we did to each other. The fact is that we did hurt each other and were not respectful. The email sounds much more coherent to me then the first. H and I have very different communication styles. He has that artistic personality and I have to spend some time trying to sqeez out the main message from his statements.

I am very weary about going too fast. I am worried that he misses me enough to start up things again, yet once back, will again see and cofus on my faults and get depressed again. I don't want to deal with that anymore. So, I am weary.

I am also still quite hurt by everything and to be honest even though he acknowledges that he has been hurtful I don't get a sense that he believes his actions were wrong. It feels as if he believes his actions were necessary at the time and were hurtful in the process and that is unfortunate.

I did email him back today to tell him that I would meet with him.

He just called me and we set up a time for tomorrow. He did not sound comfortable to talk to me. I don't know if he got my email (I presume so). I told him in my last email that I still had a lot of issues to resolve. I did express to him that I now feel a lot of anger (I did not get into details, I want to do that in person) and I will not hide it from him. Fact is that I am feeling more then just hurt. I am also really weary of him, since just 2 months ago he again told me he did not want to be with me and would not work on things, and did not think of us together, and we are not a reallity, and he does not plan on us being together....It hurt, but mostly I felt really angry about that email. I did not ask him to get back together and I did not need to have him stick it to me again.


He asked me if I would pick him up (he has no car) and I said I'd prefer to meet. I don't feel comfortable to pick him up, makes me feel like he uses me again.

The fact is that I don't know if he realizes that I feel used when he wants me to pick him up and then drop him off (and last time we did this, 3 months back, I was dropping him off at home and when we got there, he said, he actually just needed to get in and grab his work cloths and then asked for a ride to work. I felt used.) This is one of my big issues, yet it is me allowing him to treat me like that. I need to step up and change, let him know how that makes me feel. Not, expect him to know how that makes me feel.

I will try my best, that is all I can do. I will make this attempt to restore my marriage, but I am keeping my eyes open, WIDE open. If I am not satisfied, then it really means that he cannot give me what I need, and I will make the decision to end things when the time comes (soon or later, which ever is the case). Fact is, I will not rush this process, meet him everyday or have him move back or anything like that. I need time to think and absorb things, and observe his actions, as well as to impliment my own changes. 11 months have gone by, there is no reason to rush anything.


Daisy

Hi White_daisy,

I hope your meeting goes well with WH, and that is doesn't become a setback for you. You look as if you are ready and
"guarding your heart." That is good.

Hoping and praying all the best for you,
Lady

thank you lady <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.....I need that prayer.

Daisy

Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished - don't know if this helps you or not, but from the post directly above, it sounds like your H does not want a wife. He wants a mommy. Mommies love their children unconditionally, sacrifice for them endlessly, and expect nothing in return. Sound familiar?

I think that's what your H honestly thinks a wife is - just another form of mommy - and that's why he is so angry and frustrated when of course you don't fit this description.

It's really very sad, but there are some men who seriously think this is what a wife is supposed to do. And I'm sure there are women who are not looking for a husband, but for a daddy. All of these people will be disappointed, angry, frustrated and baffled when their spouse starts acting like a *partner* instead of a *parent.*

Beats me if these people can ever change. They are hardcore Freeloaders who are looking for a substitute mommy or daddy - you know, relationships that take NO work whatsoever on their part. And the saddest thing is that I really, honestly believe they have no concept of any other kind of relationship and don't have the first clue as to what a marriage is really supposed to be.
Mulan

Post deleted by Cherished

cherished....that letter from SH is heartbreaking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> .....


I have felt this way. I knew in the past that H loved me, yet so many times I did not feel that he really cared for me. Your post just made me sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You know, I actually thought that you were writing the 2nd and 3rd paragraph to ME, yet I do wonder if that is the case, that the whole letter really applies to my situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will post the conversation tomorrow. I will definately ask him the question you posted to me. Thank you! I would never have thought of it.

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

More likely they move on to someone who who will accept it. That is what happened in my situation. When after 18 years, I finally got to a point where I would no longer tolerate it, he left and found someone who would....for now, anyway.

WD:

Your a grown woman...no matter how this turns out with him tomorrow, you MUST accept 100% responsibility for your life and what happens to it.

That is all I will say about this.

Best of luck

How was your meeting go Daisy?

Milk

Hey milk,
I am still absorbing it all. There was a lot said, and not all good.

He told me about the OP. Apparently he did a lot of rationalizing at the time and does realize that he was doing that, that he hurt me, that it was wrong to do. He did admit lieing to me on several occasions, like the time I showed up at his place and I felt that he was trying to get rid of me. She was there, probably hiding in the closet! YAK. I didn't really ask much about her per say, I don't know her name, I don't really care to know anything personal about her, I only know she was getting out of a 10 year relationship herself, that they had the 'breakup' in common and spend most of their time together talking about their ex-partners.....

I told him I checked his emails accounts. THat I felt that he was not forthcoming with any answers and that I felt that something was going on and I looked at his emails out of desperation to have additional information.

THat I wanted honesty between us. He admitted that he hoped that we would NOT discuss the OP at all, and that he sees how naive that thinking was. He said he can understand now that he told me everything (we talked on the phone last night and he went into it ALL), that I may decide to not see him.

The fact is since I knew, I delt with a lot of pain of the shock, the hurt, the betrail back in the fall. Now, I feel stronger to be able to listen and absorb it all.

What he said was not shocking to me at all, although he thought it was. What he doesn't know is that by being HERE, I have learned the WS script. Everything he said about what he did and thought and how he justified it all, and how selfish he was, and that he lied so he would not hurt me, and that he just cared about himself at the time, and did not stop to think about my feelings, and that he basically felt, that "yes, Daisy is heart broken, she will just have to get over it"......he regretts it, sees how he used me and was hurtful to me, sees how wrong what he did was, that he created a mess by bringing this other person into the equation, that he was lonely and just really believed he could do it all, and he just wanted it all, because when he was with me he wanted me, could not resist, so yes, he slept with me at teh same time as with her. (I have an appoitment to get tested). I asked him if he even considered that he could give me STDs. He said no. That he really was not thinking like that, that it was all about him. WS to a tee!

He said he can understand that I may not want to forgive him now, now that I know everything. I know I can, and I can see how this can be put into the past.

In some sense, as much as this hurts, I have other pressing issues. His life style. He said he only wants to work part time, about 30 hours a week. That he cannot be happy with his life if he is working more, that he doesn't care to have stuff, that it is more improtant to him that he is free to express himself, and he cannot do that if he is working all the time. He has chronick depression, and his brain is continuously working, working, working..... THat he really does need space for his thoughts.....

I can more accept his 30 hours a week, but I have issues with the type of work he is doing. I told him I don't like his job, and I don't like the place he is working at. He was surprised by it. I told him there is a part of me that is strageling with this, but I have to be honest. He works at a restaurant/bar on a university campus. He has night shifts because that is when it is most busy and he can make most tips. Well, the place is a college 'drunk fest' on those days. I don't want my H there! It is a hang out for college kids (18-25) (I'm in Canada, so the legal drinking age is 18), and it really degenerates on those days, and peole just drink to get drunk, and it is all about hoocking, and a lot about ONS, and having fun, having the college experience. Well, I don't want my H there, period!
I told him that, and he said he would look for a place. He was not too excited about it (I told him this on SAturday when we met). I would really prefer a differnt type of restaurant or a job at Costco, or retail or something....but not a pub or club or that dump. I cannot help how I feel, I don't think it is an appropriate place for a married man....and now with my trust issues, I don't want him there. I get that he can meet someone anywhere, but I feel that why increase the chances?

Yesterday he did say something about a coffee shop type of job, asked me if I would prefer that. I said, it is slightly better (since there are no drunks!).....but I was not excited about it. He could tell and said "I guess that is a no". He said he would look. He just sees a job as a means to get by. I asked him what he thought about doing in 5 years or something, what kind of job would he be doing.....and his response was that if you can dream than you should dream big, that his dreams are not about working at a cubicle. He is a dreamer. I always knew that. I just have to think if he is someone I want in my life. He did say, that he realizes that when there are kids and we are a family that he would have to sacrifice more. We did not agree on the definition of a family, I said the two of us are a family and he sees a family as the two of us with kids. He said he would think about it.

I did ask him where did *I* fit into his life. That he could not exactly be doing exactly the same thing he is doing now when we are together. That he could not just come from work and do his reading and that is all. He said he realized that. That having someone in his life would mean making space for that person, and that the two of us would have to communicate better and find a way to work through our issues (the once we had before we even got married). We both agree that something was wrong when we were dating and we never addressed that and that, that we just hoped it would go away, but instead as we moved in together and to a new country, and started new jobs, etc, that new issues arose and the pile got bigger and we never did figure anythign out.

He says he has gotten a lot of new perspective. That he does have to be more patient, that the M will take work, that he does have to communicate his feelings to me. He admitted that he felt before that there were some topics/some part of his life, that was off limits to me and that that was very disrespectful to me.

I feel that I need to see more action on his side. I told him that now he will have to earn my trust again.

He also did say that there are no guarantees. That if he does again feels very strongly that we do not work that he cannot stay. He did say, I am not telling you this so that later I can say, "see, I told you this before", that he is not saying it as a cover, but that he cannot give a guarantee that he will have this hope for us - for ever. I kind of worry about this, I get that there are no guanratees, but I wonder if he again will just brood alone and get himself into a state where he feels very negative about us (as he said he did when he left). He basically admitted that he felt really negative about us, and that when he left, he had it worked out in his mind that we were done, and that he had no intention what so ever to work on us.

I get that there are no guarantees, yet I feel that one shoudl commit to the M and then if it still doen't work, then it makes sense to leave. But not before you even try and seriuosly commit. He said something similar before I had a chance to voice my own thoughts on this. He also said that it will require a commitment, and that he hopes we both have gotten a new perspective on our relationship and on waht we want.

I did not get a chance to ask him about counseling or reading some material on the subject. I will do that the next time we talk. There was a lot said. It scares me, because I still care about him and would like to make it work, yet I worry he will get negative. I told him that if we talk about our feelings, and about everything that is on his mind, that we may be able to work through things, before they escalate in his minds and he gets really negative about us. He said, he wants to do that. We never really communicated before. It really was pretty bad. I myself want to believe that I have gotten stronger and will be able to discuss any issue or whatever that comes up.

I am not completely convinced about what to do. I am leaving for a wedding on Thursday, I'll be driving 2 days there (2 days back), so I'll have pleanty of time to think about all this. Work it all in my mind.

I need more time to think. He asked me if I wanted to work on us (on Saturday) and I said I needed more time to think. That I would like to give it a try, yet I need more time to work things out in my mind. Yesterday, after he told me so much about the relationship with OP, he said he would understand if I did not NOW want to give it a try, that he could not really understand how I would want to. He said he always looked down on my best friend's H who had an A 4 years ago (they are in recovery). He said, he could not be with me if I was going to hold this over his head. I said, I would not want to be with him if that is how I felt. I also told him that you never know how you will react until it happens to you....that I too (as my friend) thought that I would never take my partner back after such a betrail....but that it is not so simple as "once a cheater always a cheater", that there is a huge gray area.

My issues with trust are not just with respect to other women, but with respect to the relationship. Can I trust him to give it more patience, more time, more effort, etc? THat is what I need to think about more......

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

One more thing I just thought off. When I emailed H back in Feb to tell him I no longer wished to keep in contact with him, I also told him that I would sign the divorce papers whenever he liked.

He told me yesterday, that reading that really hit him. He was really hurt (which is why he responded with him "me, me" attitude - I told him *I* was really angry at his email, that he had to yet again remeind me that he did not want me ---- he regretted it).

Anyway, he said that the fact that I mensioned DIVORCE really shoock him up.

Honestly, I was fed up by then. He never ever used the D word, and I did bring it up because D was a REALITY. I think I really burst this little fantasy life he was living over there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.....Sheesh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />!

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Daisy~
Couldn't get online last week, so am just getting caught up
and am glad to hear that you got to talk to WH.
While it still seems like your WH does a lot of talking
"around" the issues, it sounds like you were able to be
direct and get some clarity on some things, and he was
at least honest about the A.
Doesn't sound like he really has any underlying "hidden"
motives at work here, just a matter of whether or not he
is willing to put in the effort and work, make changes
himself, and be a person you would like to be with and
could be happily married to.

His own mention of it, and your description of his
depression sound odd to me, as depression is normally
considered "controllable" with proper treatment, so
shouldn't continue to be a big issue that disables
him so. Has he been tested to see if that is for sure
what he has ? Is he under a Dr. care to monitor and
adjust his meds accordingly ? Does he go to counseling?
All of those might be a big help in getting him on the
right track to feeling better and being able to function
better. As I recently found out when my WH was diagnosed
with bipolar disorder, lots of other disorders are often
mis-diagnosed as depression, so just wanted to mention
that-in case it might really help your WH. (and you).

Glad you are having a chance to think clearly about all
this and to take your time. Asking him his thoughts about
going to MC seems like a good way to judge how much effort
he's willing to put into it, too.

Just updated my post (it's long), so give me your thoughts
when you have a chance-
Slammed