I’ve asked this question to my FWW, and she has given me her opinions, but I’d like to hear others opinions. What starts the dishonesty in an M. I think this question is open to both BS and FWS.

For FWS, was the A the first thing you were dishonest about? Did dishonesty start long before the A? If so, what drove this? Was it conflict avoidance? Was it not feeling safe to talk? Was it “white lies” that grew into something more?

For BS, did you feel like you were always completely honest? If not, what were you dishonest about and why? Did you hide your concerns about the state of your M?

Just curious.

Honestly (ha), I think it starts when we lie to ourselves.

I stopped thinking I was cared for by my spouse (DJ?). Spouse's actions led me to believe I was taken for granted, but I failed to communicate my dissatisfaction. It was easier, maybe even vengeful, to act deceitfully all under the false pretense of "I'm not wanted here".

From a BS.

Good questions, rprynne.


A simple choice to lie.


No, I wasn't completely honest. I was dishonest by omission. I was missing, wanting, desiring (to the point that if I hadn't been trying to concerntrate on motherhood at the time that it is higly possible that I would've been an affairee also) a whole lot in our M and wanted to tell my H but didn't know how to.

So often, times I just LBed and DJ and AO instead of talking to him. That is funny now I hear myself talking about it.

Also, I felt he wouldn't listen to me. This was a EN he hadn't respected with me in a while. I almost think that when I found out about his A it gave me a reason to go, "Our R needs some work".

Good questions. In my case, I suppose that both my H and I had been unhappy for quite some time. We stopped meeting each other's ENs, and, when I tried to speak to him about that, he would disregard me, tell me he didn't want to talk. So, I stopped asking, but my needs still weren't being met. Rather than insisting that my H and I go to MC and IC, I allowed my needs to be met by someone who seemed like a dear friend, the OM. Once the dishonesty began, it was a slippery slope and, unfortunately, deceit began to come very easily

Dishonesty starts when one starts doing something they KNOW is wrong. The lies start when they are committed to that path of wrongdoing in order to rationalize and protect it.

I'm with Qanda, lying to myself is what gave heft to the entitlement and resentment. My FWH agrees...lying to himself was how he made his choice...and we both lied to ourselves for years. We were lying by omission to each other.

LA

Melody Lane,

I sure hope you're wrong. My WS, depending on mood, waffles between admitting and denying wrongdoing. If this isn't a front, then WS has no clue about right or wrong. I sure hope I'm not stuck with a Narcissist.

Thanks for the input. I guess I'm trying to understand something deeper.

Mel - I don't know if I fully get your point.

Lying and dishonesty have been labeled "social lubrication" i.e. if your boss shows you a picture of his kids and they are the ugliest things you've ever seen, most answer with "my aren't those lovely children". I don't if I conclude that the lie in this instance is wrong.

But I don't want to split hairs or try to classify good lies or bad lies.

What I'm getting at is my FWW started being dishonest with me long before her A. It was little things, like I'd say did you mail that letter, and she would say yes, but she hadn't. Not mailing the letter was not wrong per se. It was also not that big a deal, but she felt it was better to be dishonest about it.

I asked the questions what starts the dishonesty because I'm trying to do a little look in the mirror and ask myself "could I have done something different, that would make my FWW feel it was better to have been honest" This is why I'm asking, in your R, what started any dishonesty.

If the A was the only thing you lied about, okay, I get the why's on that.

But if not the only thing, why did you choose to lie.

Wow rprynne,

This is such a complex set of questions you ask. Yes, people lie when they've done somehting wrong and they want to cover it up. But they also lie to cover up their true opinions and emotions... which seems to be the type of lying you're talking about. It's also the type of lying I've done a lot of in my marriage. And I can now see how poisonous it has been.

If Mr. Cookie were here, he'd tell you that he didn't provide me with a safe place to be honest about those things... that he was often dismissive and defensive... that he ridiculed a lot of my ideas and so forth. Which is true. But there's a lot more to it than that.

There are things about ME that prevent me from opening up. And I haven't figured out exactly what they are yet. I know when I do, it will probably be a giant step forward in both my personal and marital recovery... but I can't quite get a grip on it yet.

So, I don't really have an answer, but I do think you're posing a very important question here and I'll be interested to see the feedback you get.

I'm curious about something. I get the feeling that MT and I have a lot in common. Have you guys done any "personality" work? Do you know what she is on the enneagram? Just curious.

Thanks,
--SC

But there's a lot more to it than that.

I think it is a little bit of "holier than thou" entitlement and a little bit of "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission".

SC - I don't think she has ever seen a enneagram. We have both taken MBTI. I'm an ENTJ. I don't recollect what personality type she was.

I don't want to get to far OT, because I'm still interested in responses to my orginal post.

However,


This one I also struggle with. My FWW has told me that she was often dishonest with me, because I would DJ all the time. It was just easier for her to tell me a story. (Again, this is on little things, not the A). Now, I understand about how I used DJ's. I am trying to quit that and think I'm doing fairly well.

But, how do you make someone feel safe, when something they tell you upsets you. I mean rightfully upsets you. It seems like a catch 22. For example, my FWW will offer to do something for me. Sometimes she forgets to do it, or gets too busy to do it. When I ask if she got this thing done, my FWW has been dishonest with me just to avoid dissappointing me.

Well, if she tells me the truth, I either let her know I'm disappointed, which make her feel unsafe. Or I tell her I'm not dissapointed, which is me deing dishonest. I could not let her do anything for me, but she likes (and/or feels the need) to volunteer to do things. If I object, she will insist. Inevitably, we end up with a DJ in this mess.

So, this is part of why I asked the question, what can I do or recomend my FWW do, to avoid this mess. We've honestly struggled with it for 10 years or more.


My FWW has said a similar thing. Okay, now, I've read some of your situation, and I would not be so presumptious as to say I understand. As I write this, I hope to avoid any DJ's but if I slip, please accept my sincerest apology.

I do not understand things preventing one from opening up. I would like to. Not specifics, but generalities. What need does it serve? Is it to protect one's self? Is it to protect others? Are there other needs?

Does it boil down to if people knew the real me, my real feelings, they would not like me very much? Or is that one does not know their real self, and is afraid to admit it?

They all seem related to fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear that if one expresses themselves, they will no longer be loved.

Is it better to be loved for who one is not, then to not be loved at all.

Is the need to be loved, what is served by not opening up? And doesn't refraining from opening up prevent one from being truly loved?

This seems like a paradox. A paradox that starts a chain reaction that leads to disaster. A recursive relationship where the mind says "to be loved, I must hide myself, and as long as I hide myself, I will never be loved."

I sometimes think this is a factor at work during an A. It creates intense feelings. When one fully or partially reveals them self to a stranger, it provide a fear free opportunity to see if this paradox can be broken? When one finds that another can love the real person, the OP gets elevated in status. Elevated because it appears they can love what one thought was unlovable. But, in reality, they are only loving that which was easily loveable, but never before revealed.

If so, what compels one to avoid taking this risk with their S. Why not blurt out,

"This is the real me, as I am today. I've changed some over the years, some for the better, some for the worse. Some things I'm still changing and some things I'm still discovering. I understand if you feel I've decieved you about who I am. I'd ask that you take your time and get to know the real me. Walk this journey with me. If you can you love the real me, we can be happy."

Seems like the S is the one person in the whole world who signed up to do just that.

Maybe I'm missing the whole point.

rprynne,

I wish I knew a little bit more about MT and your relationship pre-affair, because some of my answers to your questions -- things that are true for me -- may not fit your situation at all. But I will try to answer your questions briefly, and if any particular point(s) strikes a cord and you want me to elaborate futher, just ask, okay?


I can see how this feels like a catch 22. But there are ways to react honestly -- convey your disappointment, disagreement or whatever -- that don't make the other person feel so bad they're afraid to tell you similar things in the future.

I'm sure you've probably figured out by now how to do that wihout LBing. But another thing to consider is tone of voice. I happen to be very sensitive to tone. My H's voice tends to rise in volume and pitch when he's the slightest bit irritated. Not a good combination.

Another thing to consider is that it just takes time to change old patters. You may not be LBing anymore, but the change in your behavior won't automatically, instantly lead to a change in her behavior. You have to give it some time.



There are so many factors that come into play here, IMO. I'll tell you about the ones I've identified for myself...

Background/Family of Origin:
Keeping secrets (ie lying) was a way of life in my FOO. My mother, IMO, is a big conflict avoider, and wrote the book on how to be passive/aggressive.

For example, she comes from a large family, 9 kids, and some of her brothers and sisters are the most petty, back-stabbing people I've ever met. My mother would go to great lengths to "keep the peace". While I was growing up, she'd constantly be saying things like, "Now, don't mention to Aunt Betty that you spent last weekend at Aunt Jean's house. She might get jealous" or whatever. And even worse things. At least two of her sibllings physically abused their kids.. and nobody in the family ever reported it to the authorities.

Then, of course, there was the sexual abuse by my brother. For all of the months that it went on, I never told anyone. Then, when my mother found out about it, she didn't handle it well -- made me feel like it was my fault (which just reinforced the belief that I would have been better off if NOONE ever knew). And, of course, she told me not to tell anyone else. To this day, I don't even know if she ever told my father.

There was also a lot of emotional dishonesty in my family. I wasn't "allowed" to be angry or jealous. I wasn't allowed to dislike anyone. Those types of feelings were considered bad, and if you had them, it meant you were bad. I realize that a lot of people are raised this way... to cover up "negative" emotions... but when you add that to all the secret keeping in my family... I learned from an early age that keeping secrets and lying were matters of survival.

Personality:
I'm a perfectionist (type 1 on the enneagram, also referred to as the Reformer). There are so many aspects of this personality type that lend themselves to lying. I could go on and on. But what it boils down to is: Anything less than complete perfection is total failure... so you go to great lengths to cover up anything that might indicate that you are flawed or that you are wrong.

As a side note: there's also something known as a trapdoor perfectionist. These are people for whom the pressure of trying to be perfect all the time becomes so great, they end up leading double lives. hmmmm.


Self Esteem:
It's probably pretty obvious how someone with low self esteem would have a hard time opening up and revealing their true self. But one other thing to be aware of is that it's not always easy to spot someone with low or faltering self esteem. A lot of us have mastered the art of appearing to be confident even when we don't feel that way on the inside.




A combination, I think. You start at an early age lying to others about your true self just to survive... but after awhile you believe the lies... until you get to a point that you don't even know how to tell what's true and what's not.


Absolutely. In fact the very first word that popped into my head when I read your first post on this thread is "fear". It's all about fear.




Those of us who are conditioned to lie/hide/keep secrets can't even approach that question, rprynne. And then there's this strange thought: Maybe we're afraid of being truly loved. I'm not even sure I know what I mean by that... but it's one of those things that when it popped into my head... it had the ring of truth to it. I'll have to give it more thought.


No, I don't think those of us who fit the profile we're discussing here ever get to the second half of that paradox. The fear is so strong... the urge to hide so all-consuming... that the notion that you must open up to truely be loved never occurs to us.


I can't really speak to this. My affair was brief and with a guy I barely knew. It really wasn't about looking for love and acceptance... It was more of a rebellion, a desperate attempt to escape from the unbearable, and a need to know that I wasn't sexually dead at the ripe old age of 38.




This is the one area where I think the spouse shoulders some of the responsibility. I didn't dare take the risk with my H, because the overwhelming majority of past experience taught me it would lead to a negative outcome. So why bother...

Anyway, I want to thank you for posing this question, rprynne. It really got me to thinking. And it made me realize that I needed to start taking the risk of opening up if I'm going to continue making progress. So, last night, I told Mr. Cookie a couple of things that I had been keeping to myself. I'm not sure he really understood where I was coming from. But he didn't freak out. And much to my surprise, the sky didn't fall, lol!

--SC

(edited to add the part about self esteem)

In my situation, the dishonesty started when I felt like I coulud not state to my H that I choose to do a work thing over a personal thing. That was my first lie and I am a FWS.

On another note, my A was much more of an I had given up, but I didn't know how to tell my spouse and I didn't even know if he cared. Well, I know he cared, but at the time, I'm not sure he notice. Part of that was my fault and part of that was his.

A Lie to someone who you care about at all is not easy. Sometimes survival takes over.

By saying that......Let me have it!

SC and MT - Thanks for your input.

I do understand personality, upbringing, and history. How that all plays a part.

The recurring theme(s) in all of this appears to be fear, survival and conditioning. Fear (justified or not) begets behaviors (right or wrong) that appear to them to be needed in order to survive, which over time becomes conditioned responses.

BTW - I think it is really important not to read the above paragraph as applying only to a WS. Does not the same thing hold true for many BS who also are having trouble communicating. The fears (also justified or not) may be different, the behaviors (also right or wrong) may be different, but the pattern holds true.

I also understand that patience is a key. Old habits die hard so to speak.

I avoid LB's and am careful with my tone. Ever since I started working on myself, I have tried to be a safe person for MT to talk to. I know I can still improve and it is a work in progess.

If I think about this, it seems the process for change is to eliminate "wrong" behaviors and overcome "unjustified" fears. Does that make any sense. Granted, easier said then done, but still.

I'm glad you talked with Mr. SC. Following the above logic, I think that is a "good" behavior and I hope the outcome helped you overcome some unjustified fears.

Perhaps MT and I should discuss this sometime.

PS - MT, I don't think anyone is going to "let you have it" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you think about it, dishonesty usually starts on the first date......most people cannot just relax and be themselves, they are out to impress, they act their best, and they even do special things they may not do again.

I recommend David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage .... Schnarch is very insightful about personal integrity and how one must learn to self-soothe in a marriage .... ANY marriage ... it is a common pattern of the spouse needing a change to ask for things that are met with resistance by the spouse content with the status quo... the marriage crucible ... it's awlllllllllll a pattern. It is NOT a bad characteristic of either spouse ... just a common pattern.

I highly recommend the book.

Ask - You make a good insight. We all put our best face on in the begining. But clearly, some feel free to express their true self later on, while others do not.

Pep - I'll try to take a look at the book you mentioned.

Maybe I shouldn't say clearly, feel free, but at least some appear more apt to do this.