What is the difference between an "ultimatum" and "boundaries". Mainly, of course, I mean regarding no contact.

I think everyone would agree that no one likes to be given an ultimatum and that an ultimatum can make someone want to do something even if they otherwise didn't really want to. So, how do you set boundaries without appearing to be giving an ultimatum? (i.e. without actually making it harder to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish?)

In the case of no contact, any contact with the OM is harmful to you and your marriage, so that is your protective boundary. Your marriage cannot possibly recover unless no contact takes place. And as Dr. Harley states, he is ADAMANT that contact never ever take place again.

You can make it clear that there will be consequences if she crosses that essential boundary. I don't think it matters if you call that an ultimatum or a baloney sandwich, it is what it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

An ultimatum is about them and what they will do/not do, a boundary is about YOU and what you will accept/not accept.

If you are in plan A and your WS is NOT committed to recovery then there is the expectation that there is going to be contact....

plan A is all about speaking the pain of this contact rationally and logically....

this is why plan A is followed by a plan B....

which is the ultimate BOUNDARY

threats cohersion demands dont' work and will back fire...

boundaries are more in the line of NOT exposing yourself to in your face contact...
NOT backing down from speaking the pain of contact

ARK

IMHO:

Ultimatum: if u (don't) do this, I'll punish you.

Boundary: if u (don't) do this, I'll have to save myself from further harm from you by removing your capacity to hurt me.

The devil is in the details, what you plan to do is soley about YOU, not the other person. The theory is easy, putting it into practise is a royal PITA.

19, it is important to understand how you are actually facilitating contact with your W's OM by keeping their secret from the OMW and allowing her and her children to continue to associate with your W. If you would do the right thing and tell this woman about the affair, contact would likely end very quickly.

And your marriage will not recover unless and until that happens.

Affairs thrive and grow in secrecy, and keeping her secret for her only ensures that she will stay in a perpetual state of withdrawal and you will be dealing with an on-again, off-again affair for some time.

That is the practical aspect of exposure. The moral aspect is that the OMW has a RIGHT to know the truth and anyone who KNOWS she is being harmed behind her back has a MORAL obligation to warn her. She needs to know she can protect herself frm your wife. I assure you that she WOULD NOT WANT to continue associating with your wife if she KNEW THE TRUTH. To not tell her is cruel and callous.

ML - I was wondering how long it would take you to tell me that again. I am joking and I seriously appreciate your advice and concern. I value your opinion, but I really am not sure what the best thing to do here is.

I have discussed this with 2 counselors and both actually advised against exposure at this point. If you are correct, then I am making a huge mistake that I will have to live with (and the consequences).

On the other hand, it really could be a mistake to expose right now. I really do believe the EA is over. Also, my W was not happy with me at all before the EA (which is my fault). Exposing something that really is over and that may have never been that big a deal anyway (her claim) would be terrible for me in that regard.

What makes all this harder is that they really were friends for 2 years before this happened. She says she now considers him like a friend who has died. Still a friend, but she can't contact him.

Anyway, thank you again for your advice. I am not just blowing it off, I just don't know the best course of action at this time and I think either way could be bad. Obviously, if see any further contact, then I will call OM's W immediately - I just haven't seen any in about 5 weeks.

19, yes those counselors are giving you BAD ADVICE that they can't hope to defend. There is simply NO BENEFIT to NOT expose, only downside.

Anyone that tells you to keep this affair secret does not understand adultery and does not understand how you are faciliatating this affair.

How about getting an opinion from a QUALIFIED counselor who specializes in adultery and who knows RIGHT FROM WRONG? Dr. Harley is one of the TOP marriage specialists in the US and is far more qualified than these counselors who are giving you bad advice.

You can call him RIGHT NOW on the radio and ask him yourself [from 10am - 1pm CST] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

or send an email to jharley@marriagebuilders.com

Call-in 888-606-1776

Was that you on the phone with him just now? He told you to call the OMW.

No,it wasn't me. I was in a meeting at work.

So, I can send him an email to that address and he will actually answer it?
I will try that. The problem with that is that there are a lot of details here that I think need to be considered in coming up with the answer. That's why I think this is so hard - there are a lot of factors to consider.

I mean that from my M perspective. I pretty much agree with you that the OM's W has a right to know and I have an obligation to tell her. I really can't do that, however, if it will adversely affect my M and my kids' lives. I think that is where my first responsibility lays.

19, yes, you have a responsibilty to your wife and children, but you DO NOT have a "responsibility" to engage in wrongdoing by helping the affairees hide their affair. You only do so at your OWN EXPENSE. Keeping it a secret only greatly increases the chances of a future resumption, if it has even ended at all. That is WHY I am telling you to tell the OMW.

Telling her benefits your marriage by doing everything to END THIS AFFAIR and make sure it stays ended. Your W cannot withdraw if she is in any contact with the OM, OMW or their children.

Your family should not associate in ANY WAY with his family and that cannot happen unless all effected parties know the truth.

You don't have a RESPONSIBILITY to help the affairees HIDE THEIR AFFAIR, because doing so ENDANGERS YOUR MARRIAGE. That is not responsible.

Even so, you do have a moral obligation to tell this woman and you shouldn't sacrifice your morals to appease your wife's WRONGDOING. There is nothing responsible about that.

There is simply NO BENEFIT in not telling her, 19. NONE. But there is great benefit in telling her. .

Please explain to me how this would "adversely affect" your children's lives?

Edited to add: please consider contacting a QUALIFIED marriage counselor who understands infidelity. Most counselors are a complete waste of money and often cause more harm than good because they DO NOT understand the dynamics of adultery. Steve Harley is a superb MB who knows what he is talking about. He is worth every penny and won't waste a minute of your time. He also knows right from wrong.

If it leads to divorce which might not otherwise happen.

Remember 2 things:

1.W and I were having problems before this ever happened. Admittedly, I have not treated her like she deserves to be treated for a pretty long time. We were in counseling before EA. She never really told me clearly enough or I never really got it until the EA. I do understand now and I am working hard to change it. I think I am succeeding, but it's only been 2 months. Exposure might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I don't know.

2. W repeatedly says this was not really EA, they were just friends with crushes that went a little too far and it's over. The last call I heard between them was 5 weeks ago and that call supports this - very platonic - like me talking to a friend. Also, I know for a fact that he has not called her in 5 weeks (unless she has secret phone). I am not as sure about her calling him (she was going to public phones). On the other hand, I also heard a call the day before that one where she told a friend that she had thought about what it would be like to be married to OM and while she told me it would never be a PA, she didn't really know that.

So, it could happen 2 ways:

W gets pissed by my exposing and divorces me - have to consider that she is already generally unhappy with me. I think I have improved it some, but she still is unhappy.

or

OM's W gets pissed and divorces OM and then he becomes available and even easier for my W to have EA or PA with him. I actually found a list of pro's and con's she made for staying with me or leaving me (she prepared this about 2 weeks after Dday probably because her IC told her to). Anyway, one of the cons of leaving is that OM is happily married to his W and has kid etc. If that is not true anymore, that changes that. I don't really believe that this will happen - OM and I are very different and I think her attraction for him wouldn't last long when reality set in - (i.e when she gets a job and works full time etc.) - but I could see his availabilty as making it easier for them to have A.

This is OM's second marriage and OM's W's third marriage. Odds are one of them has cheated before and if he has cheated before (which would not surprise me) this could easily end their marriage and make him available to my W.

I would actually love to tell OM's W just to %$#@ with him like he has *&^%$# with me. I really would - I assure you. But, as in all of this, I am trying not to let my male ego make me do something that might not lead to the result I really want (otherwise I would have beaten his &^% by now).

You may be right - I just don't know what to do.

19, ALL waywards get pissed about exposure. They NEVER leave over it, though. Anger is an expectation. However, it always blows over. You are not exposing to make them HAPPY, but to ensure the end of the affair. The AFFAIR is the greatest threat to your marriage, NOT her temporary anger.

If your marriage ends in divorce becuase you refuse to help her hide her dirty secret, then it was already over. However, that never happens.

You seem to beleive that the greatest threat to your marriage is your WIFE'S ANGER, but it is NOT. The greatest threat to your marriage is the AFFAIR which is likely to resume since contact has not ended.


And she will stay unhappy UNTIL she withdraws from the OM, which will NEVER HAPPEN as long as they stay in ANY CONTACT.


But he is MORE available RIGHT NOW. They have been having an AFFAIR, for crying out loud!! Affairs thrive on secrecy, so by keeping thier secret, YOU ARE MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO RESUME THE AFFAIR!

What about the fact that I really think there is no contact now? I am sure she thinks about him, but don't all WS's for awhile? I really don't think she has talked to him in 5 weeks - except for one time in carpool line with kids in car.

Also, I am not as concerned about her short term anger about exposure as I am about her long term resentment towards me for how I have treated her (which I will admit I deserve to a large extent - but I also think she has made a bigger deal than it really was). I am not sure that exposure, with all factors considered (i.e. her resentment and her feeling that it really wasn't an A) will not push her over the edge.

Also, if he ends up divorced or separated, wouldn't he be more available? Maybe not in the short run, but in the long run he would. He wouldn't even have any kids at home - his kids are grown. He'd be free as a bird. Of course, I guess if she really wanted that, then I really wouldn't want her anyway. But as the child of divorced parents, I really hate to do that to my kids.

Finally, we have probably been getting along better for the past 5 or 6 weeks than we ever have.

If I did call Steve Harley, would you suggest I write an email or letter first detailing as much of my situation as I can - does that help?

Thanks.

The only chance of them repairing their marriage is if she OMW KNOWS the truth. The truth will make their marriage stronger, not weaker. Just as it in yours. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more lies and deceit.

19,

1.W and I were having problems before this ever happened. Admittedly, I have not treated her like she deserves to be treated for a pretty long time.

Hopefully, you are also willing to remember that when she responded to your treatment by going "outside" of the marriage, that you are not responsible for that AT ALL. Compassion is important....but for real recovery to take place....it's too easy for the WS to blameshift when there is no accountability or consequences. I find you far too willing to accept responsibility for HER affair....rather than for just your part in the vulnerability of the marriage.

We were in counseling before EA. She never really told me clearly enough or I never really got it until the EA. I do understand now and I am working hard to change it. I think I am succeeding, but it's only been 2 months. Exposure might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I don't know.

19, you are not alone chere. So may BS are trapped with the idea that exposure (TRUTH) is the straw....but is it lies or truth that destroys?

2. W repeatedly says this was not really EA, they were just friends with crushes that went a little too far and it's over. The last call I heard between them was 5 weeks ago and that call supports this - very platonic - like me talking to a friend. Also, I know for a fact that he has not called her in 5 weeks (unless she has secret phone). I am not as sure about her calling him (she was going to public phones). On the other hand, I also heard a call the day before that one where she told a friend that she had thought about what it would be like to be married to OM and while she told me it would never be a PA, she didn't really know that.

Okay....I understand completely why EAs are harder to expose than PAs. They seem so much "grayer" don't they? Less able to pin down and verify....and all the rationalizations seem to make sense. But I can tell....your radar is telling you differently. You heard your wife talk about the "future" with this OM....marriage....you know this is NOT idlespeak...but it's hard to wrap your mind around. But let's talk about how exposure for an EA....is just slightly different from a PA.

It might go something like this: OMW....I feel unethical keeping information from you, but I want you to know that I think we are BOTH very lucky. Our spouses became connected on an emotional level....that was really unhealthy for our marriages. You need to know this....so that you can do what I'M doing....and protect your marriage....but you also need to know that most people don't get this opportunity to intervene and save their marriages before they are destroyed by infidelity. I think this has not gone too far....but the best way to make sure it NEVER does....is for me to give you the information that I already have. I feel as though there was an "inappropriate" connection between my wife and your husband. I am certain, that left unchecked....it could have gotten worse. I am so sorry, and please forgive me for having to share this information with you, but as an ethical and caring person....I feel that you cannot act as an advocate for your marriage if you are kept in the dark and if it were me....I would want to know.

Then you answer her questions.

So, it could happen 2 ways:

W gets pissed by my exposing and divorces me - have to consider that she is already generally unhappy with me. I think I have improved it some, but she still is unhappy.

Well this is certainly what the WS threatens....and it's really really effective so we see it alot. The truth is that it only happens that way when the WS has one foot out the door and is entrenched in the affair so the risk is worth it in my opinion.

or

OM's W gets pissed and divorces OM and then he becomes available and even easier for my W to have EA or PA with him.

Did you divorce your wife? Why do you suppose that she is so different from you?

I actually found a list of pro's and con's she made for staying with me or leaving me (she prepared this about 2 weeks after Dday probably because her IC told her to). Anyway, one of the cons of leaving is that OM is happily married to his W and has kid etc. If that is not true anymore, that changes that.

If he's so happy....why is he doing this?

I don't really believe that this will happen - OM and I are very different and I think her attraction for him wouldn't last long when reality set in - (i.e when she gets a job and works full time etc.) - but I could see his availabilty as making it easier for them to have A.

Or when it's too uncomfortable for them to continue because of the pressure....and that....doesn't have to be dependent on her finding a new job....yanno. It gives away your power to let her fix this on her own time.

This is OM's second marriage and OM's W's third marriage. Odds are one of them has cheated before and if he has cheated before (which would not surprise me) this could easily end their marriage and make him available to my W.

So this is really about your insecurity and fear that if you expose you might lose her? Yeah, that's why lots of people don't take this step.

I would actually love to tell OM's W just to %$#@ with him like he has *&^%$# with me. I really would - I assure you. But, as in all of this, I am trying not to let my male ego make me do something that might not lead to the result I really want (otherwise I would have beaten his &^% by now).

You may be right - I just don't know what to do.

It's hard. I know.

Star - Thanks. I don't accept responsibility for her EA at all - I do accept responsibility for making her vulnerable to it. I'll admit that while I have never had an A, I might have if the opportunity had presented itself. I am definitely less likely now that it's happened to me, but something has been missing in my marriage for a long time and I can honestly see how her EA happened. I don't like the fact that I could see myself doing it, but I couldn't honestly say I never would.

As far as EA and her talking about the future, I am not really sure it wasn't idlespeak. It was in response to a comment her friend made to the effect "you know if you leave H, you will probably not end up with OM, that's not what it's about" W's reply was to the effect that while she had thought about what it would be like to be with OM, she knew that really wouldn't really happen - she then threw in that she didn't even know if he was interested in that, that he's happily married etc.

Your description of what to tell OM's W is great. If I do it I'll remember that.

W has not ever threatened to leave - for any reason. All she has ever really said is that she doesn't want to continue in a marriage like we've had for the past 15 years. Except for the kids sake, I don't either.

I have casually mentioned that I might tell OM's W before and she has never said she would do anything if I did. I haven't said this in awhile and she thinks I am bluffing. She even told him I mentioned it and she thought I was bluffing. That was over 5 weeks ago and he has not called her since then. I honestly think this was a little game to him and he won't push it. I have a feeling he wanted some SF and was going slowly with her to try to get it. Once he realized that I might not be playing his game, he's backed off.

It may be about my own insecurity to a certain extent. I hope not, but maybe so. I really do want my M to work. But on the other hand I am not willing to be a doormat and if she continues I will D her - and I have flat out told her that. So, yes, maybe part of my reluctance is that I think it could increase the chances of me losing her to OM.