no arguement there!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Uh no.

The Catholic Bible is actually different than Protestant Bibles.

Bramblerose - If you are referring to the Apocrypha, I would agree with you. If you are referring to something else, say a different translation of the Matthew reference regarding "except for...", I would be interested in what you are claiming to be "different" about the Old Testament and the New Testament in the "Catholic" Bible.

As for the Eucharist, you are correct in so far as the RCC believes and teaches Transubstantiation, whereby the participant is eating the actual flesh of Jesus and drinking his actual blood.

But none of that is pertinent to the question asked by CC. I don't care (I apologize if that offends) what ANY religion or "denomination" teaches when what they are teaching is in direct contradiction of Scripture, especially the direct teaching of Christ while He walked this earth. THE issue for any Christian should not be blind support for what any "man," Roman Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise says. THE issue should be what the Scripture itself says, and the Scripture "rules" whenever there is a "conflict." THAT is why I use Scripture instead of mere opinion or conjecture on my part.



With all due respect, Bramblerose, I have no intention of debating Scripture with you. But if you think that I will not comment if a "Church" position contradicts Scripture, you should also know that I tend not to be the "quiet type" when Scripture is "twisted." That sort of "twisting" is what brought about the Reformation, don't you know. At that time it took 95 thesis posted on the church door. Today we are not limited to such crude methods. We can address "errors" more directly and more quickly. I would only ask that if you think that I am in error that you would use Scripture to show me the error. I guarantee you that I WILL put Scripture ahead of my own opinion or interpretation if it is in conflict with God's Word.

God bless.

Okay, Elspeth, you've made a blanket statement and drawn the conclusion that as a result of these "many errors" or "differences" that ARE significant that the Scripture should be "tossed out" as unreliable and NOT used as the authority as the Word of God.

So, it is incumbent upon you to state those "errors" and show us where they are so "significant" as to render the Scripture invalid.

I, for one, shall be interested in what you have to say and look forward to the examination of Scripture and the reliability of the translations we use today.

For the record, in answer to your backhanded statement, "Foreverhers may be entirely capable of reading scriptures in the original Hebrew and Greek for all I know, (and maybe you are, too) but not many of us here on MB are," I don't read Greek or Hebrew. But fortunately there are quite a few published scholars who do who HAVE addressed the things you are referring to and who have provided us much commentary on those subjects. Not much different than someone translating Latin, French, or Spanish so I can understand what was said in the original language. Not much different than the UN translators translating for the various ambassadors who don't speak the "native" language of the speaker of the moment.

cc46,

Here is a link to a discussion about Biblical Divorce and Remarriage.

Hope it will help address questions you and others may have regarding this.

cc46 - here's an article by Dr. Tony Evans that you might also find helpful in answering your question :



DIVORCE COURT (1 Corinthians 6:1-6)
(with DR. TONY EVANS)

When it comes to the issue of Divorce and Remarriage, God has a court. Because the question comes, "Who decides when there are or are not legitimate grounds?"

There are 3 spheres that allow one to be divorced:

• When immorality enters into a relationship — it is an allowance by God.

• When there is a non-Christian married to a Christian and the non-Christian deserts the Christian — then that is an allowance for the Christian to proceed with a divorce allowed by God...

• Removal from the fellowship of God to be excommunicated as to be under Spiritual death (1 Corinthians 5)... (Immorality... beating, or being a "striker"... being a violent person... for a person who's not taking care of his family... etc.) It's where the "supposed" Christian will not come under authority.

To sum it all up... a death must occur. For a woman is bound to her husband as long as the both shall live, as the Scriptures says. But when one dies, she is no longer bound. So a person can die physically— therefore, the Covenant has been broken. Or they can die Spiritually and therefore, the Covenant can be broken.

So the question is: WHO determines (the legitimate grounds) ... and HOW is it determined... who decides? After discussing this whole issue of "removing people" from the fellowship in 1 Corinthians 5, it then continues in chapter 6 to explain HOW it's to be done. (So chapter 6 is the continuation of chapter 5.)

God has set you up to judge the "whole world". Judgment is a part of the role of the people of God. They render decisions on behalf of God Himself.

Kingdom decisions are to be rendered by Kingdom People, because only Kingdom People obligate themselves to Kingdom rules.

The Church was never intended to be a "2-hour building" that you went to for services once a week. It was intended to be an "expression of the Kingdom intentions" of the King. That's why when Jesus prayed He said, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

So like it or not... judgment is a part of the role of the people of God.

A couple that decides that they want a divorce for "irreconcilable differences" (which there's no such divorce for) needs to realize that everybody is irreconcilable to everybody else. You are very different than your mate. You're supposed to be. God intentionally made you different. The issue is not the differences— we're to turn them into "complements rather than conflicts". But His point is... that you don't go to the unrighteous, who have no Kingdom view of marriage, and don't understand that God is the author of marriage. They'll simply grant you (because you agree on your own terms)... a no-fault divorce.

He's not putting down judges, because you must have Civil Government. But when it comes to matters of the Kingdom, they're to be decided within the Kingdom, and then they can be confirmed in the government.

In verse 7 (of 1 Corinthians 6), he says if you go to a Secular Law Court— you've already lost. You've lost for 2 reasons: #1... you've destroyed your testimony and #2... God is against your process.

And so he raises the point here that the church is to act as God's judging agency. Now this ought to solve a very important issue that many Christians are very confused about whenever you hear a person say, "Well, you're not supposed to judge." They are wrong! You are supposed to judge. The Bible tells us to judge. It tells us in 1 Corinthians 6 "to render a judgment in the Church".

Christians are supposed to judge. In fact, Christians who are right related to God, are the best judges because they're going to judge predicated on a righteous standard. And the righteous standard is God Himself, manifested in and through His word! Because Christians have access to Truth, we can render judgment.

In Matthew 7 (verse 1), people misinterpret the passage where it says "Do not judge, lest you'll be judged". Is that because you aren't to judge? No, in verse 2 it says, "for in the same way you judge, you will be judged, and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."

He's not saying, "don't judge"... but, BE CAREFUL, WHEN YOU JUDGE. Because the same judgment you use against another will be the very same judgment God uses against you. So think twice before you jump out there judgmentally. In other words, he's saying, " [/i]judge carefully "... not[/i] ... don't judge at all!

How do you judge carefully? (Look at verse 3, of Matthew 7). Don't judge folks who have something wrong with them "speck-sized", when you've got a tree-trunk hanging out of your eyeballs!

The problem today is, we have people judging other people when they're as "messed up" as the folks they're judging. Don't condemn somebody else for something you're doing and can't get a handle on.

(This can be further illustrated in John 8 with the woman who's condemned for committing adultery.)

In the scriptures, when God established His courts, they carried authority with them. Deuteronomy 17, (starting with verse 8) shows that God's court systems were to be taken seriously. And how powerful they were! (Numbers 5, starting with verse 12 illustrates this.) 1 Corinthians 10 (verse 11) says, "these things were written for our example".

The Old Testament, you can use it— NOT for it's REGULATIONS... but for it's REVELATIONS. That is, the principles still applies even though the specific way of carrying it out- God may not use that anymore. And the principle is— that God wants his people to render judgment, on God's behalf, related to any kind of litigation issues. And we're constantly dealing with them. Do you go and sue them downtown? God's clear— you take it to the church.

What's the process? It's in Matthew 18 (starting with verse 15)... So the 1st thing you do is, you handle it personally.

If your brother has hurt you (or your mate has hurt you) the very 1st thing that you do is try to fix it privately. YOU NEVER CARRY A PROBLEM BEYOND ITS NEED, TO BE KNOWN. What makes it a need to be known? Verse 16— if he doesn't listen to you. He's not open for correction. He's not repentant. But it's a legitimate thing. He says, by then, with 2 or 3 witnesses, every fact is confirmed. Two or 3 witnesses would mean that there would be a legality attached to the process now. It became official... it had witnesses.

So you take 2 or 3 witnesses to confirm that you tried and they won't ... that you are trying to fix this marriage, but they won't... that you're trying to heal this relationship... but they won't. This is so that it's not your word against their word... that you can VALIDATE that there is a sin... and that that mate is not willing to correct it.

What happens then? Verse 17... says, "tell it to the church". Why do you tell it to the church? Because that's the extended family—that's the environment where God's decisions are rendered.
"And if he will not listen to the church... LET HIM BE TO YOU, AS A GENTILE and TAX-GATHERER." In other words... HE IS TO BE VIEWED AS SPIRITUALLY DEAD! He is rendered a gentile, or a tax collector. Not only were tax collectors sinners... they were also ostracized because of their occupation. Jews didn't have fellowship with tax collectors. In other words, they are spiritually dead. They, may be a Christian... but you can now relate to them... as though they are spiritually dead.

Why? Verse 18. God gives the church the ability to act as His earthly court, rendering His heavenly decisions. "Whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven... whatever you bind on earth, will be bound in heaven." The church's job is to bind and loose. That simply means to "exercise authority on behalf of God". AND IF YOU WANT TO BE BLESSED... THAT'S THE COURT YOU GO TO.

In verse 19, He says whenever you gather together to render decisions, "I'll be in the midst of you". "When you gather together to make judgments using My word, applying them to the situations of life... that's when the rubber meets the road".

The church is God's extended family court. And just like you don't want your children taking your family business out to the street, God doesn't want His children carrying out kingdom business in the street to people who don't have a Kingdom mentality.

But here's why people don't want to come to the church. They don't want to come to the church because they don't want to subject themselves to God. They want to go to somebody who will agree with them. They don't want to be rendered a "righteous decision"... they only want to be rendered THEIR decision.

So... how does this relate to marriage and divorce? 1 Corinthians 7:39. As long as the mate is alive... either physically or covenantally... then you are bound to that person and the most you can do is (chapter 7:10), is separate and remain unmarried or be reconciled. You don't have grounds for a divorce as long as they're alive.

If they are dead, they must be dead by God's coroner. And God's coroner is the church. Once they're declared dead, then a declaration of death is always a freedom to remarry— because a woman is only bound to her husband, as long as he lives. So once he either dies, or is declared to be such (as a tax gatherer or a sinner) or as 1 Corinthians 5:5 says, "put him in the realm of Satan". At that point, the party is free to remarry. Why? It's because God has canceled out the previous marriage.

God hates divorce. He never demands divorce... He only permits it. But He does allow it, when death occurs in order to preserve and protect the innocent.

There are 3 options the Christian has— (and by the way, the reason God says to be married "only in the Lord", is because GOD DOESN'T WANT HEAVEN and ****** TO BE MARRIED, if they can help it), a person whose mate commits covenantal death has 3 choices:

• To restore them to the relationship based on restitution. In fact, that always ought to be the 1st option... to see if we can fix what got broke. What if your mate does something that causes covenantal death... but they're sincerely repentant? And how do you know they're sincerely repentant? The Bible says "let them bring forth fruits of repentance". There must be a demonstration or restitution that pays back the offended party... that lets them know they're serious in their heart about what they just verbalized with their mouth as demonstrated by their actions.

They must be restored based on "their fruits of repentance". And if they're sincerely repentant, then the goal should be, if at all possible, to seek to restore them. (And that's the reason why God accepted the marriage of David to Bathsheba... God took restitution out on David. He lost 4 of his sons as David had declared that the man who did this crime should be punished 4-fold. So he lost 4 of his sons as payment back to God. He set him free to marry only after he had received restitution.) So if you've offended your mate, you need to pay them back.

• To divorce —when your mate has become covenantally dead, that is, to have them declared so by the church, which frees you up. (This was the option Joseph was going to take with Mary. He decided to put her away privately, when he thought the mother of Jesus had been immoral.)

• You can choose to live continually with your covenantally dead spouse — even though they've committed an act and even though they're unrepentant for their sin. (1 Corinthian 7:13-15) Here he sets the scenario, that the covenantally dead person or the unbeliever (he's either an unbeliever, or he's functioning as an unbeliever), wants to stay in the marriage relationship. If he's willing to function, as her husband, and she's willing to function as his wife— He says don't leave.

You need to LOOK AT IT AS AN EVANGELISTIC OPPORTUNITY. He's not saying you're staying there and he's beating on you. He's not saying you're staying there, and he won't work... He's talking about his willingness to stay there... under the covenant of the family. Even if you have grounds (for divorce)... if they're willing to function properly... even though they're not spiritually on track, then you "sanctify them". If you love them and care about them, but they're not on track, you may want to stay, pray, and watch God work through you to bring about a change... to bring that person back.

What do you do if you're already coventally dead? GOOD NEWS... God has the ability to raise people from the dead!

..................................................................................................................................................................................................
The above article was actually gleaned from an audio tape entitled "Divorce Court" from the ministry of Dr Tony Evans www.tonyevans.org. This was just a portion of what he had to say. There are several excellant illustrations that aren't written in the contents of this text. Please consider contacting the ministry of Urban Alternatives through the web site just given to obtain this and other helpful information pertaining to divorce, marriage, re-marriage and other important topics

cc seek out what you are searching for through Catholic Apologetics sites...your own Diocese is a wealth of information and support.....and your own Priest...
also most Diocese offers support groups for single widowed and divorced groups....

that is where you will find the answers to this question...

ARK^^

Well, cc, maybe a way to look at this is from outside the bounds of dogma. I'll claim to be qualified for such an observation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For those that claim that God acts in mysterious ways, maybe He/She/It already has you on course for what you seek.

You have wisely decided, IMHO, to allow your H to make the moves for legal divorce. He also made the decision to conduct an affair in the first place and subsequently made the decision to live with the OW. In other words, he's made (or will make) ALL the decisions contrary to the marriage. You've made none of them.

Assuming the remaining decisions to dissolve the legal marriage are made by him, you can exit the legal marriage guilt free. Not only will you NOT have made the dissolution decisions, you will have tried your best to avoid them.

No guilt.

No responsibility.

No ownership.

Will this equate to freedom? - a free conscience?

It did for me and hopefully will for you.

Can't this be seen by people of faith that God approves? A REAL believer having a REAL clear conscience? Seems logical to me.

OM in my sitch, a devout Catholic, married my XW, who "became" Catholic 5 months after our legal divorce. They both are playing the roles of "good" Catholics, apparently hoodwinking their priest and their parrish. They have not yet been struck down by a bolt of lightning. If they can get away with this on this Earth, you ought to feel rest assured that God will grant you - or already has - whatever you need to feel you've done your part to uphold your role in the marriage. Perhaps this is your clear conscience and a proxy for your "religious" divorce.

WAT

Please excuse me if this is a silly question. This topic has me wondering what a civil marriage vs. a religious marriage is. Cival marriages are by government officials and religious throuh clergyman. We were married in Jamacia outside, this is sad, I don't even know if the man who married us was a clergyman. He did mentino god in our vows/ceramony. Was this a civial marriage only?

Do the biblical rules for divorce still stand even for cival marriages? Thank you in advance. I'm trying to follow this thread the best of my abilities. : )

Thank you everyone for all this information. I have to print it out and check all the online information!

For some who don't know, I don't live in USA or Europe. So things are slightly different in many senses.

I have a lot to think about.

Thanks WAT for your analysis!

you are probably right!

FH,
I wanted to pass this on to you because you said you would be interested and I took you at your word:
I have The New American Bible, St. Joseph's edition published by Catholic Book Publishing Company.
Math 19:9 I say to you,whoever divorces his wife(unless the marriage is unlawful), and marries another, commits adultery.

I only send this along because you said you would be inetrested. BTW, I have no idea what unlawful would constitute <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
All Blessings,
Jerry

Thanks Jerry. I have to admit that it might take some study to get at the "proper" translation, but it seems patently obvious that The New American Bible, St. Joseph's edition is severely twisting the words of Jesus at this point. Jesus is NOT referring to an "unlawful" marriage. The question was put to him by the Pharisees who UNDERSTOOD exactly what a legal marriage was and that divorce was rampant in those marriage. They sought to "trap" Jesus. But Jesus made it quite clear that a LAWFUL marriage (or any marriage for that matter) could be ended. But, UNLESS it was ended for the ONE exception that Jesus gave them, any subsequent marriage, post divorce, resulted in Adultery being committed and a breaking of the Seventh Commandment.

So I guess one would have to examine just how the RCC arrived at this interesting change in Jesus' words and the MEANING of what Jesus was telling the Pharisees.

One could construe that what they might be referring to as an "unlawful" marriage could be any marriage that is NOT between two believers. But Paul's writings also give clarity that a "one flesh" condition is established when someone commits adultery or unites with a prostitute. So if the "lawfulness" is established by the physcial consummation of the marriage, one "cannot" go back later and "undo" the lawfulness of the marriage, it would seem. But that would seem a huge "stretch" considering the entire context of the discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees where there was NO hint that they meant "unlawful" marriages.

But if it's really of interest to you I could look up commentaries on the translation of that specific verse and the words used in the original writing.

God bless.

cc-

I just wanted to let you know that I've been reading along, but I don't really have a whole lot to add.

You are a very, very patient lady.

Georgia

ForeverHers ~ your Catholic bashing (and thats what it is) is completely unacceptable.

I don't badger others of different religions on this board on how to practice their faith nor tell them that they are wrong. You should not either. This is MB, this is not a scripture debate board.

And for the record, I'm not Roman Catholic. I'm Byzantine Catholic.

cc46 ~ Canon law does not change per country. While over the thousands of years that Catholicism has existed, we have often taken on the practices of other cultures and made them our own, this is not one of those cases. As ark and cherished had suggested, seek out the counsel of your parish priest and the apologetics websites online.

Georgia, I know you keep track of me and my journey. For your information, I am NOT a patient person, but I have to acknowledge that there is no way to hurry this up, so I will do my best to keep my word and wait 2 years (oct 06) before my next plan.

Bramblerose, I will read everything on this thread and the links to be informed. The priest I have chosen after a long search is a bit busy lately and hard to find, but once I've decided on my position I will speak to him. He has a doctorate in Bible studies and teaches Bible, so I guess he knows the subject. I just want to be better informed.

I still feel the need to be released by someone from this marriage. And not legally. It's more morally or spiritually.

Thank you for all the help.

Hi cc -

I'm about to get to bed, but let me add the following thoughts if I may (regarding your subject).

The Bible speaks to divorce in a very limited number of passages. From those passages, different folks are going to glean different interpretations, each most likely thinking theirs is the "true" will of God.

I believe that each of us are directly answerable to God. If you will read...and somewhat digest..the various verses on this subject, then I think you will be as much of an "expert" as those who claim much more insight.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think only you and God, using the scripture as guidance, can know what is right for you and your "spiritual divorce".

Beware those who have all the answers (they scare me)...

Georgia

Bramblerose - why don't you spend some time trying to help cc46 instead of dragging out the "bashing" card to try to silence anyone who might disagree with you.

cc46 said this: "No, I don't want an annulment because I don't want to annul my marriage. It existed and was. I want a divorce from God."

She wants to know how to get a divorce that is "within God's will," NOT an annullment or some attempt to label her marriage as "unlawful" in order to get a "Church" blessing so that the marriage was as if it NEVER EXISTED.

You want to argue Scripture, fine. You want to silence me. Fine. Then pick up the gauntlet of help for cc46 and YOU offer her some insight as to what GOD says about her situation.

Bramblerose, I AM a Protestant and I do think that the Catholic Church (Roman and possibly even Bzyantine, even though I know very little about that denomination) makes some serious errors in their theology. But that disagreement has existed for many centuries and it will NOT be settled here, nor will such an argument help cc46's situation. The BASIS for the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant Churches, and probably even your Byzantine Catholic Church is the Bible. So if you want to argue or accuse me of "bashing" Catholicism, then have at it. You are doing the same thing to Protestant beliefs. If you don't want to argue, but would rather have a discussion about what IS written in the Scripture and what it says, then fine, we can do that too. But let's do that on another thread where we can discuss it ad nauseum. HERE, on this thread, let's try to help cc46 with her questions and her dilemna. You don't like what I say, fine. Say something different. Ultimately it will be cc46, not you or me, who has to choose a course of action and how to proceed. But it is OBVIOUS that she wants to know God's will in the matter....and the source for the knowledge of that will is the Scripture.

Now, in the context of Catholic faith, HOW is cc46 supposed to get a "divorce" that is acceptable to God WITHOUT an annulment or a ruling that her marriage was "unlawful?"

I know you don't want an annullment ~ but I would encourage you to really look into it. The church is quite specific about the requirements for a binding marital vow - and it may be, especially as indicated by the current state of your marriage, that those requirements were not present. If that is the case, anullment WILL free you.

Look up some of the old posts on the old board by NSR, his take on Catholic teaching was very inspiring.

Also, I don't know about your country but here in the US there are a number of Catholic based groups formed for exactly what you desire...spiritual healing from divorce. Again your parish can probably tell you what resources are available.

FH where have I bashed you?

I simply pointed out to another fellow Catholic that yours is NOT a response based on Catholicism, but rather on personal interpretation of scripture in direct contradiction to Catholic teaching.

Catholic teaching is NOT based soley on scripture - and never has been. You personally make think that the Catholic Church is wrong to consider other sources of Divine Revelation, but the fact is, the Church does, and so just screaming your personal interpretation is really not the answer here.

I hate to say this but if cc46 truely wants a divorce and remain a Catholic in good standing, she can't. Its that simple. But I believe she is smart enough to go read the sources pointed out to her and learn for herself what she needs to do. That IS the Catholic answer - you may disagree with it, but that IS what it is.

I'm not going to debate scripture with you - because that DOESN'T help cc46. That ISN'T the point of MB.