Exactly. The point is for how long? will his soul always be lost? will he ever repent of his adultery?
We can't know.

And I won't wait forever. But it's hard to decide when it is the right time. Maybe it will be the right time when I don't feel I am abandoning him to his fate.

Well you said it yourself so I don't have to. The problem is not that you have abandoned him to his fate. He has done that himself. The problem is that you FEEL you have abandoned him to his fate.

So the problem still gets down to one simple issue - guilt. When are you going to decide to forgive yourself? You have done nothing wrong and yet you still feel guilt. His life is his to live. We have free will. That is what makes us unique.

Let yourself off the hook.

cc,

Your WH's fate is not your responsiblity. While I can admire you for feeling that way, it just isn't true. He is an adult and responsible for his own actions. He will have to claw his own way out of the mess he created.

It is time for you to concentrate on you. You have been through a lot for a very, very long time. Wait out the two years if that is what you want to do. Why would you wait longer then that when that is what Dr. Harley gave you as a Plan B guideline?

Besides, if WH can be helped, it should not depend on whether you are married to him or not.

You are a good person, but please recognize your own limitations and responsibilities to yourself.

I am planning on letting myself "off the hook" when the 2 years are up, and that's what I'm working towards!

The point is I have to FEEL I'm doing the right thing. I hope to reach the right feelings by october. I've already shortened the time from a 2 year plan B to 2 years since d day!

Hi cc,

I understand completely. I have the same concern for my WW. She was very religious before her affair began but she has not been to church since. I believe that in her mind, she has too much shame to face God. I have tried to convince her to go to church, to confess her sins and stay in touch with God through prayer.

She has already lost our oldest son because of her continued lying and deceit. She still has a chance to get him back and but needs to make a move very quickly.

As I said, you are a good person. The patience and care that you have for WH and your children is obvious. You have done far more than any human being should be asked to endure. As you rationaize your "feelings" please keep this in mind.

ToddAC

FH ~ Why not stick to telling cc46 what YOU think and believe, and stop Catholic bashing me?

I wasn't addressing you in my post. I find your arguements to be just as fallacious as you seem to think that my beliefs are.

You aren't. You have no control over his choices - he's runnning towards his fate intentionally. *YOU* are the one who has been abandoned.

But you are right...until you have your emotions straightened out, its not time to walk away from your marriage.

Why put a limit on it? You can't force personal recovery into a nice little timeline!

Post deleted by Cherished

I know most of this has been about Catholic practice, but I thought I would through in some Baptist views. These were some guides on divorce from a church I attended.

Divorce
Divorce has always been defined as the ending of a marriage. God clearly hates divorce (Malachi
2:16). Divorce brings harm to every person involved; therefore, reconciliation or restoration of a
marriage should be encouraged and divorce discouraged.
In recognition of man's sinfulness, God does permit divorce in certain situations, not because He
wills it but because of the hardness of people’s hearts (Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Matthew 19:3-9; 1
Corinthians 7:15). It is only permitted (never commanded) in cases of fornication or
abandonment (1 Corinthians 7:11, 15; Matthew 19:9). Fornication covers a wide variety of
sexual activity including adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, and incest (Matthew 5:32, 19:9; 1
Corinthians 5:1). Abandonment occurs when a non-believing spouse decides to leave the
marriage relationship with a Christian (1 Corinthians 7:12-15).
A special case that is also covered under abandonment is that of persistent physical, sexual or
emotional abuse of a spouse. God has provided protection for an abused spouse through the
church, civil authority, godly counselors, prayer, and other practical measures. Reasonable steps
should be taken to provide for protection of the abused spouse while promoting appropriate
reconciliation and restoration. A period of separation might be considered to encourage the
couple to focus on the issues involved. A separation agreement developed with the assistance of
the church pastoral staff could assist the couple in defining the purpose for the separation and
promoting agreement on the length and conditions agreed upon for the separation and
reconciliation. Such separation should not be legally initiated for the purpose of pursuing
divorce but for protecting and promoting reconciliation (1 Corinthians 7:5-6, 10-11). Separation
should not be entered into without considerable prayer and the seeking of godly counsel. Should
such reconciliation efforts fail, the offender could be subject to church discipline. Church
discipline in such case would follow the normal course as outlined in the church’s guidelines.
Thus, it would not be entered into lightly or be completed swiftly. Church discipline would
focus on effecting reconciliation through counseling, accountability, and confrontation to restore
the abusive spouse to an obedient relationship with God and their mate. The final phase of
confrontation would involve the Pastors. However, if church discipline follows to conclusion
against the offending spouse and that spouse is still unrepentant, then he or she may at such time
be considered an unbeliever by the church through the decision of the Pastors (Matthew 18:17).
Following such action, if the offending spouse is still not willing to repent, to turn from the
abusive behavior, and restore the relationship, then that spouse would be considered an
unbeliever who has abandoned the marriage relationship and would then fall under the
provisions of 1 Corinthians 7:12-15. As provided for in the church discipline guidelines, such
action would only be taken following significant prayerful attempts to encourage and enable
reconciliation and restoration. Also, such determination of abandonment initiated by an
unbeliever and a permitted divorce for the believing spouse would only be made with full
disclosure to, involvement of, and consent by the Pastors.
To the best of our ability as the body of Christ, we understand these to be the only reasons for
divorce. Therefore, those who pursue divorce on unbiblical grounds (any not specified herein)
should be confronted and counseled as they are subject to church discipline because they are
willfully rejecting God’s Word (Matthew 18:15-18). This procedure will be described in
the church's forthcoming statement on Church Discipline Guidelines.1
While divorce may be the legal termination of a marriage, it is not a permanent end to that
relationship while the other spouse is alive or not remarried. Restoration is preferable to
separation or divorce in all situations, even when there are biblical grounds for divorce (Hosea
2:14-23; Matthew 18:21-22; Luke 17:3-4). The only time restoration should not be sought is in
the event of a remarriage by one or both partners. It would be biblically wrong to break up the
new marriage (Deuteronomy 24:1-4; 1 Corinthians 7:10-11).
In an effort to promote reconciliation and healing of a marriage, the church will seek to offer or
recommend a process of mediation in situations where there are biblical grounds for separation
or divorce and the couple chooses not to reconcile but to pursue a separation or divorce.
Scripture admonishes Christians not to take their disputes before the civil authorities for
judgment (1 Corinthians 6:1-8). Therefore, to enable the couple to honor God’s commands,
The church encourages the use of a Christian mediation process. By offering such mediation,
The church prayerfully hopes to be a reconciling and restoring influence in the couple’s marriage
that they would likely not find if they pursued legal counsel to address their marital problems.
Mediation offered through the church will never have as its purpose assisting or
enabling couples in their intention to divorce.

Cherished,
I'm sorry if my story makes you want to leave MB - I don't blame MB at all - people are entitled to their own views. I do blame my ex and the Church. They lost a faithful christian and gained a cheat that would do anything to keep the woman who broke up his marriage. Sad - (Cherished).

Maybe ~ and I've been thinking about this since last night ~ the problem is with an expectation that the Catholic church will act as an enforcer, and that there is moral judgement passed on the spouses during an annullment. An annullment doesn't pass judgement - it simply determines if both spouses were capable of entering into a binding lifelong vow at the time of marriage.

That a WS uses lies and deception to continue the farce of legitimacy in his or her future relationship is NOT the fault of the Church, but rather the result of "twisted", to use Cherishe'd word, or rather "fogged" WS garbage.

If a WS shows up at a church with a fiance and an annullment document - its highly unlikely that the Church will now launch an investigation to find out if the pair were once adulterous. If the pair present themselves falsely, it is between themselves, God, and a confessor should they ever repent. And yes, if the priest KNOWINGLY aids the WS - well that just makes the priest another flawed human being - it does not mean that CHURCH condones the WS behavior.

I'm thinking thats where so many end up hurt and angry because the expectation is that the Church will throw out the infidels and enforce justice.

My Alanon sponser taught me an invaluable lesson. She said, BR, if you can't Let go and Let God, then by all means Let go, and Let God get him!

The WS will get justice for all of the wrongs, hurts and devastation they heap on their loved ones.

It just won't happen in MY timeline, in the way I WANT.

But God is smarter than me and I have to trust that even though I don't agree with God's plans, he knows something that I don't, and that He knows what is best not only for ME, but for the WS.

Bramblerose,
Excatly I HAD GROUNDS - he didn't - he lied to get the annulment and the church allowed that - he cheated - he had a girlfriend - they went together to get their annulments. Now to me it's who has the most money. Sorry - that's the way I feel.

If I thought for a second that he was actually going to church because he had found his religion I wouldn't have a problem with this. But when a man doesn't go to church for 30 years - even to watch his own children in the christmas plays but manages to start going to stalk the OW and yes he did that - he used to leave our house right at the time church would let out and drive by to see her - so I'm not stupid - so you see the church lost me - I won't be a part of that anymore but they gained him. And I know in my heart that if he and the OW ever broke up - you would never see him in church again. Pretty sad.

The Church invalidated my marriage - yes I know it was my ex that did this to me - but they could have said look - you had a marriage and 3 children you do not get an annulment.

Bramblerose - I am not "bashing you," I am disagreeing with your statement and the "Church Reasoning" behind it. YOU seem to be a very nice person. There are lots of "nice people" in the world who sincerely believe something, but what they believe is wrong. To hopefully avoid making that sort of mistake, I turn to the Scripture to see what GOD has said, rather than merely taking anyone's "word" on it.



Okay, that's fair. I base my arguments upon Scripture. So using your "logic," the aforementioned reference to the Roman Catholic Church position on selling Indulgences was "right," and Martin Luther was "wrong," simply because whatever the Roman Catholic Church say is "right?" Is that what you are saying?

Bramblerose, THE authority for all Christians (there IS only one church of all believers despite the many denominations) IS the SCRIPTURE itself, not the interpretations of "man" that are inconsistant with what the Scriputre teaches. So, perhaps your "problem" is not so much with me as it is with Scripture. If that is so, the problem may lie with what you said earlier, the RCC's positions and beliefs are NOT based solely upon the Scripture, but include practices and beliefs from other peoples and religions.

So if you disagree with what I have said, as I have disagreed with what you said, either you are right and I am wrong, I am right and you are wrong, or we are both wrong. The "statement" is NOT "bashing," it is a legitimate disagreement. To resolve the disagreement, CHRISTIANS should turn to the Scripture, to the Word of God, themselves and see for themselves exactly what God has said. If there is something that may not appear "crystal clear," then read various commentaries and examine the "logic" and "reasoning" of the authors. But DO NOT "add to" what is in the Scripture or "change" the meaning of God. That is what too many have tried to do, with great success I might add, in order to lead many astray from the Truth.

So, instead of accusing me of having some "bad motive" in stating a position that opposes yours, why don't you talk about the position that Jesus took with the Pharisees when THEY tried to trap Him on the question Divorce? What the King has to say, I would assume, carries more weight for you than what anyone, Priest, Pope, or otherwise, might say, don't you agree?

Bramblerose, the Roman Catholic Church is no different from any other religion, or people in general, in one respect. The RCC is also made up of FALLABLE men, ALL of whom are sinners with an inherent "sin-nature." It is no different between someone who "claims" to be a Christian, but there is no "fruit of the Spirit" in their lives. Some, within the RCC are saved, but not all. The LEADERS have an even greater responsibility, given by God, to NOT lead the flock astray with false teaching. What determines "false teaching?" The Scripture. IT is the "measure" against which all teaching is to be compared and "tested."

IF the Scripture is NOT the SOLE authority, then what difference does it make what anyone "believes," even if what they might "sincerely believe" is "sincerely wrong?"

There are many areas of RCC doctrine that could be examined, but we are limiting this discussion to Divorce and cc46's desire to KNOW what the will of God is so that she will have peace in her heart. WHO is Sovereign is part of the equation. GOD is Sovereign, not the Pope, not me, and not any human. God "sets the rules" according to HIS will, not ours. When God's position on some matter conflicts with what "Man" might want or say, God gives us the warning of 2 Timothy 4:3-5; "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

Now then, something to consider is HOW a priest who has never been married can even begin to understand the "one flesh" condition that marriage establishes. God MADE marriage because it was "not good that Man should be alone." Were "celebacy" somehow the "yardstick," then God broke that "rule" Himself when He created Eve specifically FOR Adam to complete and complement him and to be "one flesh" with Adam.

The priest "knows" it by association and observation, but NOT by personal experience. How, then, does a Priest get his knowledge about marriage and the roles of husbands and wives that God has assigned? He gets them from SCRIPTURE, unless he wants to follow the "ways of Man" and come up with false beliefs ala Moses' reasoning on Divorce and his accomodation of men's "hard hearts(read 'hard hearts' as sinful and self-seeking)."

That brings us right back to what JESUS said about Divorce when confronted by the Jewish Pharisees SPECIFICALLY on the subject of "Divorce Mankind's Way." "From the beginning it was NOT so...." and Jesus went on to explain WHEN a divorce is allowed BY GOD.

That is, after all, what cc46's question is all about. What GOD allows, not what the RCC, me, or any other human entity thinks. God has spoken. It IS that simple. It is NOT "bashing you," it is looking to see what God Himself has said and revealed to us in what we know as the Word of God. That Word of God is independent of ANY religious organization and IS the "standard" by which we determine being "in God's will" or "out of God's will," at least is should be(imho) for ALL Christians.

God bless.

This is my third request and after this I'll just ask the moderator to step in.

FH ~ I'm not interested in arguing Scripture or religion with you. I haven't asked for your opinion or advice about my spiritual beliefs. Your comments, directed AT ME, are not welcome. I do not need you to fix me.

cc46 asked for thoughts - and so I assume that your comments directed AT HER are ok.

yesterday I had a monty python moment...
It was vision
it was great...
the sky was blue
there were fluffy white clouds everywhere....
and a big zipper appeared in the sky..
then a large cartoon hand opened the zipper...
and from behind the zipper came another larger cartoon hand....
holding a hammer..
I was then bonked on the forhead with the hammer with someone mumbling...
don't do it..
no point...
don't do it
no point....

this was right after I had typed up my OPINION to foreverhers and his claim I ATTACKED his religion....
(which quite honestly I know nothing about)


it was a sign from God....to me ARK!!!
as clear as if the the waters had parted in the tub when bathing my son...
no point
everyone and I do mean E V E R Y O N E is wrong..
foreverhers is right...
period...
I am not being sarcastic
I am not attacking.

I beleive he believes that with every ounce of his being..
and because he has scripture to back up every word he speaks...he has no interest in learning (about) OR respecting that others may have differing opinions...
he is out to prove A N Y O N E who does not think as he does they are wrong...
period....
I hit the delete button on my post...
and I felt great

and as God told me yesterday clearly without a doubt
there is no point
and I am at peace...

bramblerose...I share my vision with you....both in story and in spirit...it is very freeing....
ARK

point taken ark. Too bad there isn't an ignore button around here.

I've quite outstayed my welcome anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Cherished

BR, I need to really understand what you are trying to say here. On the one hand NO ONE is "responsible" for the sins of another. On the other hand, Church Leaders are entrusted by God with "enforcing" God's commands.




Yes, there IS an "expectation ... that the Church will throw out the infidels and enforce justice." THAT is partly the idea behind Matthew 18:15-20. The CHURCH is given the responsibility to STAND for God and NOT to allow willful sin in the midst of the congregation, not from members or from leaders. IF the "church" cannot be expected to "enforce" God's commands, what point is there in having any "Church Authority?" Remember, the point is that a Christian has chosen to submit their lives, their will, their wants and desires, TO God and His will, submitting in humble obedience TO God when there is an apparant conflict.

REFUSING to enforce God's commands is, itself, sinning against God's commands to NOT allow willful sin to exist in the body, because "a little yeast leavens the whole loaf."

REFUSING to enforce God's commands places "Man's" reasoning and desires ABOVE God's, in effect making "Man" Sovereign and not God.

If the "Church will not enforce the laws of God," WHAT POINT is there in Jesus' instruction to "...take it to the church?"




With this statement I wholeheartedly agree. The POINT of all of this is NOT that we are married, but that we are SAVED. Suffering, trials, and tribulations ARE to be expected for Christians because Satan is against God, and by extension, against all Christians and will try to put a wedge of any kind between "Man" and God. "God didn't really mean what He said" was used at the start and continues to be the "lie that keeps on giving" so much pain and anguish in our lives.

God bless.

Cherished - Precisely. Thank you for your concise clarification.

God bless.

no cherished...the protestant perspective...
IS
we/I believe this...
we/I interpert this passage this way...


not
you dont
it isn't necessary
you are wrong...

big big big difference...

so while I need to, love to, enjoy, and often seek out a multitude of different beliefs AND the reason behind it..

never ever ever is it for the sole purpose to say why they are wrong....!!!

big difference cherished...big difference..

no one is gagging over anyone saying in our church we believe this or that...

no one...

but this other blatant garbage...

as God said..

no point

ARK^^