loss...
#2980028 - 04/02/06 12:49 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



My phone rang at 12:45 am 5 days ago. Half an hour later, my world was completely upside down. We have kind of a backwards relationship. I'm the husband and I'm the home maker. When she took her last promotion, she told me I didn't have to work if I didn't want to. I was working previously. We talked about it and though it would be good if I stayed home with the kids, etc. Her last promotion came because I helped her get her degree. Now then... I've gone from being able to catagorize my relationship as fairly strong to not knowing my own name. We've been married 11 years and 7 months. At about the 18 month marker I had a one night stand affair and it was completely stupid. I felt horrible and confessed almost as soon as I got home. It wasn't a flaunt it in your face kind of thing but more of an I'm a moron kind of thing, please forgive me etc. At that time I discovered she had already had an affair before me, which created an entirely new set of emotions. We forgave one another and moved on, or so I thought. A few months later, I discovered there was a second affair, for which I also forgave her. After the phone rang the other morning I questioned her about what was going on. Long story short, there have been 17 additional affairs on her part over the course of our marriage. To top that off, she wants me to leave. I suggested that we get counseling or therapy and after a few minutes she agreed. I want to forgive and move on again and I know it's going to take time. She says she doesn't trust herself and she still doesn't trust me from something that happened 10 years ago and thinks I've been with 2 other women, which I haven't. We have our first counceling appointment on Tuesday. Am I nuts for even considering continuing this relationship?

Post Extras:

MrWondering
Member


Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 607
Re: I'm really at a loss... [Re: Drexxell]
#2980077 - 04/02/06 02:18 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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To top that off, she wants me to leave.


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Yeah, right...let me get this straight. You are a stay at home dad, she's had 17 affairs vs. your 1, 10 years ago. You've got kids at home that you care and tend too while she's out galavanting around town entertaining numerous men and SHE EXPECTS YOU TO MOVE OUT.

First things first. Welcome to MB. Your marriage is always savable as long as one of you remains fighting to save it. Your wife needs serious counseling and has significant deep seeded character issues. Can it be saved...it is impossible for us to know at this point.

If she is in an active affair currently and is pressing separation it is unlikely counseling will prove anything more than divorce counseling. It will likely end up her trying to convince the therapist about how doomed your relationship is so the counselor will advise you two to both give up. She'll be able to then put on appearances that "she tried" and hope she can win over the therapist into believing HER long list of rationalizations and justifications.

Next...no matter what happens you must protect you and the kids financial and emotional survival on the backside. YOU DO NOT MOVE OUT. Do not give up the marital bed nor the master bedroom. No matter what she says or does you stay put. She's cheating, she's a big girl WITH RESOURCES...she leaves.

You will not get custody of your kids back if you leave that house...you'll end up fighting for some joint custody at best. Even as a stay at home father you are going to have to fight your butt off to get full custody. Even if the law in your state reads "no bias" between men and women...that is not how it works in the courtroom. You must start journaling everything that is going on, buying a voice activated digital recorder from radio shack and documenting conversations...you might even hide the recorder in her car to capture her cell phone calls therein. Get a keylogger on the computer and review her cell phone bills if you can. You also want to consider a hidden video camera in the home to document things. If this ever goes to court you will be portrayed as a lazy jobless man and not a stay home dad. Your contributions to her education will be denied or minimized. Copy all documents you have for the last 11 years and put the copies in a safe place. You will only win this fight (if it comes to that) by initiating preparations and documentation IMMEDIATELY.

Further, keep an eye out of financials. She may already be cleaning you guys out. You must protect you and the kids...consider raiding the accounts for 1/2 soon and canceling joint cards.

Start interviewing lawyers. You must be prepared and if the threats to file get convincing enough you may have to preempt her in court as the first to file in many states have an advantage.

WHO IS THE CURRENT OM? IS HE MARRIED? KIDS? OM'S PARENTS/SIBLINGS? Exposure is your most popular means off breaking up an affair. I bet anything your wife works with this guy. Exposing them at work will likely be a necessity at some point or another. Don't fret about the economics of her getting fired...they must be separated and this job is not healthy for your marriage anyway (17 affairs...OMG)..plus divorce cost way more in the long run.

Finally, you will make it, with or without your wife, YOU will make it. Plenty of SAHM's (stay at home mothers) do just fine on child support, alimony and a part or full time job. That is if worse comes to worse. However, by agressively fighting for your marriage and inflicting consequences upon the CURRENT infidel in your marriage SHE is much more likely to be pulled from her FOGGINESS and brought to her senses. Then a PROPER recovery is in store.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - don't worry about your first affair 10 years ago hurting you legally...you both forgave each other and moved forward for 10 years...not an valid excuse for her 17 other affairs...IMO

p.s.s. - take your post over to Infidelity General Questions II Board...much more active over there

p.s.s. - yes I am an attorney, but not divorce...though I have learned much about divorce law posting and reading here the last year.

--------------------
FBH(me)-38 FWW-36 DD-Age 6
Dday-April 2005 Recovered
email - the_wonderings@yahoo.com
Pep's - Carrot & Stick of Plan A
"You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice...She's running to stand still" U2 - Joshua Tree

Post Extras:

Drexxell
Junior Member


Reged: 04/02/06
Posts: 2
Re: I'm really at a loss... [Re: MrWondering]
#2980114 - 04/02/06 03:03 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



My apologies for the lack of clarification in my previous post as I was and still am under emotional duress. Thank you for responding to my post.

The most recent OM is married and has been for some time. I believe he also has children. Allow me to clarify and explain also that the economic impacts of me exposing her could include jail time for her and the OM as well as previous OMs. She's active duty military. With us moving every 2 to 3 years, me keeping a meaningful and gainful employ is difficult to say the least. She was deployed to the Middle East from 9-05 to 1-06. The most recent affair happening in 1-06 the five days before she came home. The one before that in 10-05, the one before that on a TDY in 7-05. Exposure would mean a certain loss of livelyhood and benefits. I suspected them of planning a meeting in early May and I told her then, "If you've told me you stopped all contact and then you meet him in May, count on trouble." A man can only take so much, you know.

Please understand that not only does an affair in the military mean huge trouble, but having congigal visits in a war zone in another big boo boo. I have the means to ruin her and about 11 other people. I just don't have the desire. As it is, I'm entitled to half of her retirement. I'd give up the retirement to get beyond all of this. I love my wife despite what has happened. I told her, "No matter what else I feel toward you, I love you first. Most certainly I'm angry. The anger is a result of the love."

She claims she's stopped contact with the most recent OM. I'll never be sure because they have secure means of communication at work that I simply can not monitor. I found previous e-mails between OM and WW since her return from deployment and have put them on a disc and hidden them. WW knows I've seen them but doesn't know I've saved them.

I have always been the one to pay the bills. She brings home the bacon and I cook it. So, financially, I see every penny that moves. I have also been keeping a journal of our conversations and my feelings. Not so much for evidence purposes but so I can process emotions without exploding. I started the journal on D Day plus 2. (getting the hang of these abbreviations)

A key logger might not be a bad idea. Where and how much? I won't be able to put it on her computer at work though. Might get convicted of espionage or something.

My oldest son (step son) is from her first marriage. There are two younger children that have my name on the birth certificate and a strong possibility that the youngest one isn't mine at all. I don't want this situation to get ugly and I know this is going to take work to happen.

We've already been through the invasion of privacy and spying conversation. I told her I found the e-mails. At any rate, I'm struggling along and there's no way I'm leaving the house or the bedroom. I just wondered if I was insane for wanting to make this work.

Please see my response to you on the just found out forum

Hey, Drexx...

Got a question:

"Allow me to clarify and explain also that the economic impacts of me exposing her could include jail time for her and the OM as well as previous OMs. She's active duty military." For clarification purposes, you exposing her or her having the As might include jail time?

See the difference? Do you want more of the same? You both had As, forgave and moved on. That wasn't working so hot, come to find out, huh? Working through infidelity is a lot more than forgiveness...I think you're realizing that now.

It's about ownership and choices. You allow her not to get to the why of her choice of an A, because you didn't. You're human. Very common. Nonetheless destructive.

You aren't the one ruining...they chose their actions. You didn't.

As for insane...absolutely not. I was a serial cheater...we don't have to be that way. True love of your WW is knowing that owning her stuff is hers...yours is yours. Enabling her to destroy 17 marriages...which she did when she had the As, is not good loving in my book.

STD tests, exposure, MC, reading everything you can get your hands on will bring this event in your life as a way to get through to yourself, know yourself, not feel crazy because you know that you choose what you choose. You'll see it and know it.

Welcome. Happy you're here.

LA

Drex, I'm a retired AF senior NCO. In 26 years of service in a career field where I routinely had access to punishment actions taking place on a single base, and later throughout a major worldwide command, I have seen only half a dozen courts-martial using adultery as their basis. Mortarman is active duty Army and may have better information about the Army, but I don't think it would be too terribly different from my experience. The point is that while adultery IS still a punishable offense within the military, such punishment is extremely rare. What DOES happen is punishment for disobeying an order. That happens when a cheating spouse disobeys a commander's order to stop seeing their partner in adultery. It's almost invariably an Article 15 action.

What I'm saying is that if the possibility of your wife being court-martialed, serving time, and being denied retirement because of adultery is keeping you from dealing with your wife’s multiple adulteries, you're using a bad excuse. Quit using it.

You ask if you're insane for wanting your marriage to work. I'm a strong advocate for using MarriageBuilders.com principles to save marriages. That’s the only reason I’m sitting here on a Sunday afternoon when the skies are clear and air is warm outside. However, Dr. Harley tells us one instance of infidelity in a marriage is extremely difficult to recover from. Many marriages do not survive even one such instance of adultery. A second is almost impossible to recover from. Your wife has had 17 separate adulteries and you don't even know if her youngest child is yours? There are some really cruel things I could say here, but you’ve undoubtedly already tortured yourself enough with visions of what your wife has done to you and your family.

Let's be clear here. Her excuse for 17 adulteries is a one-night stand you had 10 years ago. That's bovine scatology and you know it. I suspect she does too. If you want to try to recover your marriage in spite of the extraordinary depth of your wife’s betrayal, you are going to have to make one heck of a recovery plan and do it in textbook fashion. That means you read up on Plans A & B on this site while you wait for Dr. Willard Harley’s Surviving An Affair to be delivered. You badly need to STUDY that book if there’s to be any chance of getting through this.

After going through that book, if you still want to try to break your wife free of a lifetime commitment to adultery, you will have to do a nuclear exposure. Nothing else is going to stop the current adultery. Only when the exposure is complete can you implement a plan to recover from this madness.

Here's a keylogger if you want to try it. You cannot, of course, put anything like this on any government equipment.

http://www.ardamax.com/

There are many other things you can do to obtain irrefutable evidence your wife is engaged in adulterous activity. I was going to add another thread to show you what else you can do, but we need to see what you’re willing to do to stop this obscenity before I go on.

Tell us, Drex. In spite of your comments, are you man enough to let things get ugly so they can get better? What are you going to do about this, Drex?

Considering that the most recent OM is still deployed 8000 miles away in a war zone I don't think she's having physical contact with him. He's due to come back in late April and is going to be stationed on the west coast. (we're on the east coast) I'll never know if she is using work phones or computers to maintain contact. Both of them are officers as were the two OM she was with before that. Dr.Apt for STDs being made tomorrow by the way. Exposing her ruins her career and does a number to us financially. We have some savings, but you know what military members get paid... Exposure puts her out of a job for sure with a general discharge (Other Than Honerable) which does a number for her getting another job. Point is, no income, no alimony, no child support. I'm fully prepared to find a job.

I just got done talking with her again about finding the right fit for a counselor. We actually haven't fought since D Day. I told her I wasn't leaving the house or the bedroom.

She told me she isn't making excuses and takes responsibility for what she's done. That they're her actions and it's her responsibility. I told her that running away wasn't taking responsibility. She didn't like that.

I guess I should clarify again. There are 17 new As since the 1 I had and 2 she had 10 years ago. I've been reading this site since I found about about this. I don't blame myself for her As. I take my responsibility for not meeting her emotional needs. I've asked sensitive questions to find out what needs I'm not meeting (taking the questions off the questionair) made promises to be better in those areas, apologized for not meeting those needs in the past and so far I've kept my promises.

A few years ago we "experimented" for a while sexually. Just she and I were involved. Well, she and I and an assortment of 'props'. We won't get into detail on that. This was about 5 years ago. She brought that up today that she felt like an idiot for letting those things happen to her and for letting me do those things. All this took me off guard because she and I talked about it before we even started that and came to a mutual agreement, although not an enthuastic one, about participation. (didn't know I needed this site 5 years ago)

I don't want this to get ugly because I don't want the kids drug all through it. She already told me she'd fight me tooth and nail for the kids. The oldest one being my step son, our seperation would split the 3 children up.

What am I prepared to do? Legally I can prove the 2 most recent affairs. I can also say that alcohol was involved in all but 3 of the 17 As. What's best for me is important. What's best for the kids is important too. I can't let them stay in an environment where deceit is acceptable.

I don't know if I'm trying to hold this together because I'm still in denial or what. I don't expect that counseling will be a cure all. But whatever path we decide to take at least we'll have some direction.

Yes, I'd say she's become a rather accomplished liar. I feel pretty foolish about that. Not to mention betrayed, taken advantage of and manipulated.

I'd say you two have a ton to hash out and it needs to be done in the house and be secretly videotaped. If you also get her admiting the 17 affairs on tape...she likley will never be deemed a responsible parent. I still can't believe she intends to fight you tooth and nail for custody. In the divorce proceeding you can't even utilize the adultery stuff because you fear military exposure (so you might have to do mediation - which in most states is better than the courtroom for men becaue they actually take the time to listen to the entire case).

From what Longhorn said I think you may be under a false impression of how bad exposure will end up being to her career. Sounds like you were made to believe all that by her. No worries. Just get more opinions.

Read up.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for making your position clear, Drex. Good luck.

I called to make the doctor's appointment this morning and loq and behold they actually had one for today. I'll be going there shortly. WW doesn't know yet that I'm going. I asked her earlier if I should be concerned about STDs and she said no. I think I need to be sure though.

Since yesterday afternoon we had agreed not to talk about R until Tues at counseling session. Wow is it a difficult thing to do. We generally had a good time yesterday talking about what ever came up, taking the kids to dinner. We couldn't sleep for the life of us though. So we got up at zero dark thirty and I watched her play solitare on the comp while we talked.

Eventually she asked me, "Why do you still love me?" Not really knowing what else to do and not wanting to go back on a committment I had made to her about not talking about R until Tuesday, I said, "I thought we weren't going to talk about this until Tuesday." She replied with, "It just doesn't make sense to me." I didn't reply and got us something to drink.

Was it better to avoid the question and keep the committment?

Drex,

You should call into the Harley's Radio Show and maybe get to ask him and his wife some questions on the air. The shear number of affairs would make an interesting on-air phone call. There is a link (it's in flourescent yellow on my screen) at the bottom right of this very page you are looking at. It streams live on the web from 3 - 6 pm CST.

I think I've been a little easy on you. After discussing your situation a little with my wife, Mrs. Wondering, I really feel that although any marriage may be savable, I'd have to seriously question why you'd want to. IMO, the only way to possible save this marriage is to divorce, get custody of the kids and later remarry after your wife has recovered from HER serious mental issues. IMHO, no amount of marriage counseling is going to change your wifes "spots" so to speak. She needs in-depth and intensive therapy and without consequences she will likely CONTINUE to feel entitled to do whatever she wants.

I rarely, if ever, post with such pessisism. I'm usually Johnny Sunshine, but your wife's career choice, the authority she has over men in her career and the serious Daddy issues she must have, have me convinced that no amount of "talking" it out will do. I'm betting she's got her very own female version of the Napolean complex. She will never feel the need nor respect you enough to change for you in your current relationship. There's just too many men under the bridge for that.

I'm sorry I feel this way and I hope I'm wrong, but I think you have two options; stay married, turn a blind eye to her permicuousness and forget about fidelity OR divorce her and protect yourself and your children from her so history does not repeat itself.

I think you should play this out a few weeks and months as you accumulate evidence on her. Fathers, even stay at home ones, have a difficult time winning FULL custody. You really have to prepare your rock solid case with tape recordings and video. Otherwise, she'll show up in her uniform all bright and shiny, adorned in medals and take advantage of you in court. She must be portrayed as the monster she really is with HARD evidence.

Please Call the Harleys for advice...they are the professionals. Call on-air or pay and get a phone counselation with them because her problems and your problems are beyond the scope of nearly everyone posting herein.

Good luck and sorry again, Mr. Wondering

drexxell,

I think your arguements about the cost of revealing the affair are just bogus. You are working right, or you can work right? You have 3 children one of which is a step child. She may say she will fight tooth and nail for the children, but she stands to lose an awful lot if she does, including her career. If she is an officer and she had affairs with enlisted, she IS in a world of hurt with regard to the issues.

Longhorn gave you some great advice listen to it. Pepperband has asked this questions several times and I think it is wonderful. What would YOU do if you were not afraid? You cannot let fear govern your actions. It is clear she has no respect for you, and that is very likely because she knows she can run over you with NO CONSEQUENCES.

You need to start listening to people here very closely or you will lose your marriage and much more. If you make a stand and address this you may lose ONLY your marriage, OR you might find that you are in a REAL marriage not the farce you are in now.

This is NOT about your feelings of love for her. It is about what a marriage should be and whether or not she will eventually leave you once the kids are gone.

You have a lot of thinking to do, but what ever you decide I hope it is that you decide to take some action.

God Bless,

JL