All weekend I have been feeling very negative toward my FWW for no specific reason - she hasn't done or not done anything and I don't love her right now - sort of hating her even. We haven't argued at all this weekend.

Did see OM at church earlier today, but she didn't talk to him - he avoids me like the plague. Goes the other way when he sees me.

Part of it, I know, is that she reminds me of my role in our marriage troubles whenever her EA comes up and also gives me crap about snooping.

Anyway, is it normal to have strong feelings of anger, hatred etc. for no specific reason? I'd actually like to D her right now. I know that's not really what I want long term, but today it's what I want.

It's the famous "roller coaster". It is very normal to feel what you're feeling. Sometimes, the triggers are what puts it into a spin.

You say she reminds you of the role you played in the troubles of your marriage. Does she acknowledge hers? Just curious...

Take Care.

19, it is normal to have feelings of hate and anger when you are dragged back to D-Day EVERY TIME she sees the OM. She will be in a perpetual state of withdrawal, and you will go back to Day 1 of recovery EVERY TIME SHE SEES HIM. Recovery is impossible until contact ends. Just like Dr. Harley says. You can see with your own eyes that this is happening.

But you have chosen to live like this for some inexplicable reason. This is the outcome of your choice.


This is hardly the attitude of a person who feels remorse for her affair. It is a shame that you were put in the position of snooping because she was carrying on an affair. She is simply angry that she got caught. Tell her that no one has the right to the privacy to carry on an affair.

You have every right to snoop if you have reason to believe she is untrustworthy. And you do have very good reason to believe she is untrustworthy.

J68 - There haven't really been any triggers. I just don't like her right now - and I am trying very hard to. Not even sure I love her right now. That's a big change since dday when I was crushed, still in love with her etc. That's gone right now and I don't know if it will ever come back. In a way I hope it doesn't - just for my own well being. She doesn't understand that her actions have really changed the way I think of her.

She does acknowledge her role to a certain extent - but she downplays it to a large extent too. Admittedly, my behavior was not good, but I do believe it was caused at least initially by hers. By behavior, I have been very withdrawn and acted disappointed in her for a long time - like nothing she did made me happy - she felt like she was never enough for me. I admit I did act like that although it was not intentional to a certain extent. I think this was initially caused by my displeasure with our sex life - my drive is much higher than hers - probably too high. Over the years, this drove me crazy and then I think I got into a habitual bad mood because I was mad at her most of the time. I shouldn't have done that.

Another reason she downplays what she did is that it was just an EA that lasted about a month and for her that's not much of a big deal. She may be telling the truth about that - that it wasn't a big deal - but I don't know. From my snooping, it appeared to be a bigger deal to me and appeared headed to a full blown A. She even admitted to a friend of hers that while she didn't think it would be a full blown A, how could she really know for sure.

She has also been friends with the OM for a couple of years - that makes it harder too.

Thanks.

ML - Thanks - and thanks for bearing with me when I am sure you are frustrated by the fact that I have not exposed to OM's W.

I don't really think my feelings are entirely caused by the continued contact. This started a couple of days ago - before we saw OM today. I just don't like her right now and may not even love her (see above post).

Also, I really don't think she is in a state of withdrawal - she doesn't act like it at all - I guess that could mean she is not withdrawing because she is still calling him or she is telling the truth and it wasn't that big a deal and she has nothing to withdraw from. I actually think it's the latter - but I could be acting very naive. That's one reason I have not exposed to OM's W - W keeps downplaying it and convincing me that maybe it really wasn't that big a deal.

As far as the snooping, that's what I tell her whenever she complains - I have the right to snoop because she can't be trusted.

She's also not very remorseful - I think part of that is because it was not a PA. She doesn't really consider an EA to be an A and she doesn't consider what she did to even be an EA. That makes all this harder for me.

Anyway, not really sure I care right now - except for kids, money etc, I don't really want to be married to her anymore - at least not today.

Thanks.

You shouldn't accept her blame and guilt when she tries to make you the bad guy for points you have already worked on and addressed.

Instead give her back her babble.

Ws: Remember it's your fault you neglected me and I had to have an A.

BS: My fault? Is that all it takes for you to have an A? R u that much of a sleeze? Hm.... ok... I certainly will remember that point. Thanks for showing your POV....it's a bit warped but now we know. (then walk away).

WS: (fuming - thinks to herself....hey it wasn't suppose to come out that way..... did he just slap all my guilt back to me?!?!?? ).

BS: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (when out of sight - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

L.

19, I just want to emphasize to you that an emotional affair *IS* a full blown affair, for a woman it is much more serious than a one night stand that was pure sex. The emotional element makes them much more serious for a woman.

I really don't believe that your W believes it was not an affair and "no big deal," but is hoping you will believe it and not bother her. This is a very routine tactic of a WS that is designed to minimize the fallout.

You can't go by her words, but must go by her ACTIONS. Look at the evidence you have and determine from that if it was an affair or not.

An affair has very addictive qualities and if she was going to the trouble of hiding her communications from you, that was done for a very good reason. Women don't sneak around and hide "friendships" or relationships that are "no big deal." So, please don't delude yourself into thinking this was not an affair or that she WON'T go into withdrawal.

Of course, withdrawal starts when contact ENDS, and that has not happened here. She still sees him at church, and possibly other places, so she CANNOT WITHDRAW.

I do not understand at all why you won't tell the OMW, especially if you believe, as you say, "it was no big deal."

If it was truly "no big deal," then just show her your evidence and she will surely agree with you and laugh it off, no? What would you have to lose?

Orchid - I have tried that some - she says "you've worked on it for 2 months after you did it for 15 years..." - she emphasizes how long it lasted - which is true to a certain extent. I also think she has made it much worse than it really was - re-written to a certain extent - but not totally - I did do it.

I will have to try specifcally what you mention, however, I like it. Of course I have been very neglected too, I have not had an A.

Thanks.

I think ML is right, you aren't going up and down for 'no reason'...even if you didn't see the OM until today, you still knew a couple of days ago that it was possible you would both see him today.

There can be no contact AT ALL with the OP if recovery is going to happen, I believe that with all my heart. I know if I had to even think I MIGHT see the OW at any point, it would keep the resentment alive and active in me. Not to mention the starting over of withdrawal from your WW every single time...I can't even imagine..

I don't know your situation, but I know if the OW in mine would have had a husband or an SO, it would have taken a freight train to keep me from telling them what I knew..not only do they have the right to know, exposure of this sort would give you an added guarantee of no contact...

I personally would let the OM's wife know every single thing I knew and would change churches...you can either do this or keep on riding that rollercoaster from ******...

Good luck and Godspeed to you...

ML - I know it was an A - I don't disagree with you there at all - and everyone she has told - her friends, MC etc. have all told her that - she is the only one who downplays it - but that's the way she is in general - she is always right - never wrong ....

And I worry that you are right about an EA being worse too - it could very well be. She is not that into sex anyway - at least not with me. Especially worried since they have been good friends for a couple of years.

Interestingly, one thing she said recently was how easy it was for this to happen to her (because of how I have acted for 15 years). Pretty crappy thing to say, don't you think?

Also, she doesn't know I found a pros/cons of D list that she made and OM was on the list (he was a con since he's married). Sounds like a big deal to me.

And she was lying about it - lied a lot in fact. You are right - no reason to lie if it's nothing - is there?

I may tell OM's W - I just can't decide - I really think it could make it worse - I just can't tell. I may actually have to since I can't take seeing him every Sunday -

Remember too that with all this, I am trying to plan A and act like I love her more than anything in the world - which I don't right now. Trying not to LB at all. Any mention of A pissed her off and is a LB. Also makes her mad when I tell her she can't call him - says they are just friends.

Thanks.

Tell his wife 19, and then find a new church...they are/were not 'just friends' and you shouldn't have to look at the man who cockholded you in the face on the Lords Day..to me that just adds a whole new element of 'eww' to the whole A thing...They can't hide what they did from God and it's terrible that what should be an uplifting and wonderful experience for all of you is reduced to that...

Tell her..

19, a lovebuster does not mean sacrificing your principles to APPEASE an angry tyrant's bad behavior. Just because she gets mad at any mention of the affair does not mean its a lovebuster. A lovebuster is:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

Being direct with her about her affair is none of those. In fact, she will have to talk about the affair to you openly and honestly in order to recover.

But I don't sense that she is anywhere finished wtih her affair, hence her lack or remorse, anger at affair talk and inappropriate anger at your snooping. It seems very much like she is trying very hard to keep you off her track by attempting to make you feel guilty about snooping. If she were done with her affair, on the other hand, she would not mind snooping; in fact she would WELCOME it in order to PROVE her innocence.

This is what it will take to recover from this affair, in addition to the very important FIRST STEP, stopping contact:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

What is "eww"?

I probably should tell his W and I may (Melodylane has been trying to convince me for at least a week) - it just seems like things are going very well right now (except that I have no feelings for my W except disdain) and I hate to rock the boat ...

OM had nerve to say hello to me a few weeks ago...

Also, the day after he declared his love to her (before I knew anything) he shook my hand and talked to me

Finally, when my W told him a few weeks ago I had mentioned telling his W but that she thought I was bluffing, he told her I would just have to "follow my conscience"... what a guy -

19..."eww" is a way to express disgust I guess...it's disgusting to me that anyone can walk into a church and profess to worship the Lord with an A on his conscious, with it seems like no remorse ..perhaps he has none (conscious that is), but I think yours may be screaming at you to tell his wife..she has the right to know who/what she is married too. Don't think your wife will be his last conquest if he gets away with it this time...she may think she was 'special', but I have the feeling that she was just the easiest conquest at the time....

You tell his wife and I'm pretty sure he won't be so confident that your conscious is as warped as his...

this_hrts - You are right - my conscience is telling me to tell OM's W (along with Melodylane) - I am just worried it will make my situation worse and I also need to be sure I am not doing it to be vindictive - because I would like to make his life miserable too - but that is not a good reason to do it

Question: (for you and other women on here) - as a woman, would you want to know if your husband did this? Basically told my W he loved her, held hands with her and then spent a lot of time on the phone with her. They also had coffee one time. All in a 3 week period. He also asked her on the phone when he could see her - told her I would never know. So, ladies, would you want to know? (I know the answer to the question - just feel like asking it anyway).

If I tell OM's W, I think the main reason is that I will never be able to get over this if I have to see him regularly (and know that W does too) and his W doesn't know - drives me crazy since it's most every Sunday - I don't feel any differently about all that now than I did on dday (Feb 1, 2006).

If I can't get over it without telling his W, I might as well do it - don't have much to lose I guess.

Don't know if you read my other posts on this thread - but - a little history - it was a very short EA with a guy she had been friends with for a couple of years. I found cell records first and she lied about it - said they were friends. Then I heard a call on the home phone and confronted her. Said she wouldn't call him again. Over the next 3 weeks she lied and said she wasn't, then she screwed up and used the home phone (she had been using public phones before). I caught her again. That was the only time she was very remorseful - I think she was genuinely concerned I was about to D her. She broke down crying etc. - for the first time. Said she didn't even like him that way anymore. She hasn't been very remorseful since then - been about 5 weeks.

One reason I sort of believe her is that he is very different from me and all of our friends - I don't see what she sees and I know she wouldn't be happy with him.

I don't think she has called him since - about 6 weeks - but I am not positive. My recorder broke and I just got another one.

You know, I have to agree with you on the conquest thing. This is his second marriage and he's only been married 3 years. I bet he's done this before. Of course, there has been no sex, but I bet he was just biding his time until he could make it happen (that's from a man's perspective, of course - I focus on sex too much in general).

Finally, you should know that I do not consider myself totally innocent. I know the EA was not my fault, but I have not treated W as she deserve to be treated for about 15 years. I think she has made it worse than it really was, but I am not innocent and I can see how that would help make her vulnerable to it. She has been going to IC for about 9 mos. - and that may have actually made this worse.

Anyway, thanks for listening - in addition to all the people here that give good advice, it's also therapeutic for some reason just to talk about it.

1000% YES, I would want to know...there's nothing worse than finding out that your life has been a lie and you had no clue...

I also believe you are so right that he was just 'warming' your wife up for a PA...I do believe you caught it in time and saved yourself and your marriage even more devastation, but why should he skip away with no consequences for his actions?..he'll just do it again, he might even think that since you didn't tell his wife this time, it will be safe to go after your wife again...

Reading about how your wife kept contacting the OM after you caught her the first time reminded me so much of what my H said after D-day..that {even though he knew it was a mistake the entire time the EA was happening} he 'couldn't stop the EA and didn't know why'..That's the addictive quality of an A...and an addiction can't be broken while still getting 'fixes'..ie: church sightings...

He also claims that my discovering it stopped it before it became an EA, but truthfully, even hand-holding would be more than an EA to me...He won't admit it, but I'm sure it went at least as far as kissing, etc...ewww...<<there's that disgust think again... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Expose this behavior to his wife 19...just do it, you said yourself that it can't make you feel any worse than you already do..and it will probably save your marriage...

I have a feeling they did some kissing too - I could be wrong about that - I know he "kissed her" - she said that was a kiss on the cheek, but we know she's a liar, don't we?

She tells me that they discussed their feelings for each other and the fact that they were married and how it wasn't going any further. Of course, after that they proceeded to talk on the phone a ton and he tried to see her more than he did - so it didn't end.

One thing I worry about in telling his W is that she will leave him and that would make it even easier for my W to have A with him - or leave me for him. I hate that I am such a wus for feeling like that, but I do. I found a list she made of pros and cons to leaving me and the fact that OM was married was a con to leaving - since he is not available. Also, I worry that she would get so mad that it could undo the progress I have made over the past few weeks.

She never said she couldn't stop calling him like your H did. Said one reason she called him after I found out was because I told her not to. Also, when I found out about those calls, I really only knew about one and she admitted there were more - I never would have known. She also told me she had gotten tired of him. I sort of believe that as mentioned earlier - of course I want to believe that so maybe that's why I do. Anyway, she said exactly what I needed to hear and I believed it.

Also, one good thing - the last phone call I heard (about 5 weeks ago) was a very platonic call - like me talking to a friend. That's when she told him I had mentioned telling his W - he has not called her since then (unless she has a secret phone) - I think he realized with that comment that this is not just a game. I don't know for sure if she has called him.

I also heard a call between her and a friend about 2 weeks ago which I think she was discussing that she had called this friend before when she wanted to call OM and friend discouraged her from doing it - she said "I've been good" - of course, she has lied to her friends before.

So, my worry is that exposure could kill my marriage - not save it. Tonight I really don't care - except for my kids.

Thanks

19,

There was a poster this fall that had a similiar issue(as I recall they knew the other couple from Church as well). His recovery after No Contact was stagnent and remained so for some time. The never even moved to square one UNTIL he finally exposed. He was so adamant against doing it until finally he was ready and conceded to the advice given by Melody and others. Upon exposure, he endured the anticipated shock and anger from his FWW for a few days; but, in the end him and his wife finally began recovery. Search the keyword "Shaden" to review his story.

You and your wife are one. The demon, if you are inclined to believe, has found a way into both of you. Such demon is filling your head with fear of doing WHAT MUST BE DONE. Cast him out by exposing this truth. Until you do, nothing moves forward. From my experience here I can safely predict that until you do, your recovery will remain paralyzed.

The OM's Wife will take the information and do with it what she will. Odds are their marriage will survive and thrive eventually with the truth. Only the truth, which you now possess, can assist their marriage and keep OM away from your wife (and other men's wives). He is a predator and his wife NEEDS to know this.

Further, as I've said before...maybe OM's wife will make them switch to another church or at least another service hour saving you the bother.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

19, the chances of the OM's marriage making it are much GREATER if you do expose, because they cannot fix the problem if she doesn't know.

Secondly, the greatest threat to your marriage is NOT exposing because it leaves a door wide open for a resumption. The OM is perfectly free to pursue your W whenever he chooses. And probably is NOW.

He knows you don't have the courage to bust him and as long as his W is in the dark, he can spin any contact as "just friends." Your complicity in keeping his dirty secret, no doubt emboldens him to do whatever he wants with your W.

Nor will your marriage ever recover as long as they still see each other at church. You said yourself that she is not even in withdrawal. Of course she's not because you can't withdraw from something until you STOP that something. Your marriage will never recover until she can withdraw. NEVER.

Those are the selfish reasons for exposure. There is also a MORAL REASON for exposure. You have a MORAL OBLIGATION to warn this woman so she can protect herself and her children from your W and her H. To not warn her is cruel and IMMORAL.

I can't imagine that you would hesitate to warn your neighbor that his bookkeeper was embezzling money from him just because it was not personally convenient. Adultery is exactly the same.

If we only did the right thing when there was some PERSONAL BENEFIT, then we can't really claim to have any principles at all, can we?

ML - While I don't disagree about your principal comments, I don't think it's exactly correct. My reluctance over exposure is not because it's not convenient and not because I don't have the courage to do it - it's because I honestly believe that it could have an actual adverse effect on my marriage. I have a responsibility to my kids to do what I think is best for my marriage. I understand that may not be the best thing for someone else (i.e. OM's W), but my kids have to come first. My parents are divorced and it sucks. I don't want that for my kids. I know you think the best thing for me and my kids is to tell OM's W, I am just not as convinced as you are.

I could be totally wrong, but I sort of believe my W when she says she doesn't have any feelings for OM now other than as a friend she can't ever talk to. I don't think she is in withdrawal because I am not sure there was anything to withdraw from. I think she got caught up in something that ended very quickly and that's it.

Also, this OM is as different as night and day from me and there is no way she would end up with him. I think she knows that.

I think her real problem now is that she is pissed at me over how I have acted for the past 15 years. Exposure would add to that.

On the other hand, I could be totally wrong and there is evidence that I am wrong. She could be acting the way she is to keep me off balance so she can carry on however she wants. She can basically do pretty much whatever she wants since she does not work and I do. So she has from 8 - 2:40 every day to do anything she wants. One thing that bothers me is that they were good friends for 2 years before this - I guess it could have been going on longer than I think - at least in her mind. There was almost no phone contact, however, until 8 weeks ago.

He would have a hard time pursuing her, I think, because he can't call her - I check all the phones. I actually think she was more the pursuer after it all started. Of course, that could be his MO - maybe that's what he likes. Anyway, I do think she was the pursuer at a certain point.

While I do hate the OM, on the call I heard where she told him I had found cell records etc, he did say he was not going to call her anymore because she needed to figure out her marriage. Of course, he did call her at least twice after that - she answered the phone one of the times and they talked about our kids (I heard that call too).

Do you really think that just her seeing him, without talking, will prevent recovery and prevent her getting over it?