Mr. - Thanks. I will look for the posts you mention. Not sure about the demon thing - but I can't just dismiss it. You may be right.

Why could they not move to square one until he exposed?

Also, I am not really sure he is a predator - I think my W has actually been the pursuer once it got started - she may have even started it, I don't know. I only know what she told me and she told me she doesn't even remember exactly - she's probably lying, but they were drinking.

One other concern (Melodylane - what do you think of this):
I don't really have a whole lot of evidence. Here's what I have:

1. What my W told me - not evidence at all
2. cell records of multiple long calls over a 10 day period
3. tape recording of a call where she told him I had her cell records and he said he was going to stop calling her. There is enough on this tape to show that they were more than just friends, but not too much - no "lovey dovey" talk, although my W was crying when OM said he wouldn't call her
4. tape recording of another call 3 weeks later which is totally platonic except for one thing: W told OM I had mentioned telling his W. OM's response was "that can be dealt with too" ... "he'll just have to follow his conscience on that" (what a joke).
5. a hand-written list my W made with pros and cons of leaving me - on the list as a con of leaving is a mention of the OM and the fact that he is married to his W - mentions her by and her kid by name -

That's all I have. I mention this because OM could easily spin this as their being friends and I am crazy etc.

Do you think that is enough evidence?

I had another phone call with W and a friend where she described how great it was - unfortunately, it got erased.

Thanks.

*** . . . I honestly believe that it could have an actual adverse effect on my marriage.***

19, your wife is all wrapped up in another man. What kind of "adverse affect" is THAT having on your marriage?***

***I have a responsibility to my kids to do what I think is best for my marriage. I understand that may not be the best thing for someone else (i.e. OM's W), but my kids have to come first.***

Yes, you do. And that includes refusing to be part of a threesome when it comes to marriage, because if you're part of it your kids are part of it, too.

***My parents are divorced and it sucks. I don't want that for my kids.***

How long do you think you can tolerate being "married" to a woman who is dating another man? How long before your kids figure that out, if they haven't already? How long before the strain of you looking the other way so your wife won't get mad at your completely destroys any love you have left for her so that you can't even stand to look at her?

***I know you think the best thing for me and my kids is to tell OM's W, I am just not as convinced as you are.***

You can read any number of stories here about people who said exactly the same thing and made NO progress -- they only watched things get worse and worse -- until they finally got the courage to expose their WS's sordid affair and finally had a chance to start cleaning up the mess.

***I could be totally wrong, but I sort of believe my W when she says she doesn't have any feelings for OM now other than as a friend she can't ever talk to.***

We've heard this before, 19. It just means she is still more attached to him than she is to you.

***I don't think she is in withdrawal because I am not sure there was anything to withdraw from. I think she got caught up in something that ended very quickly and that's it.***

You can close your eyes and indulge in wishful thinking all you want, but it's not going to save your marriage.

***Also, this OM is as different as night and day from me and there is no way she would end up with him. I think she knows that.***

She doesn't want to "end up with him." She just wants to date him while you stay home and take care of the kids. Is that okay with you?

***I think her real problem now is that she is pissed at me over how I have acted for the past 15 years. Exposure would add to that.***

19, it is amazing how so many people can have a spouse carrying on a flagrant affair right under their nose -- with said spouse dating and sleeping with somebody else -- but they still think their biggest problem is "my spouse might get mad at me."

So, let's get this straight -- you're willing to tolerate your wife dating another man, but you can't stand the thought of her getting mad at you?

19 -- you are terrified of her anger and terrified that she will leave you if you make a fuss. You are so terrified that you have put your manhood in the bottom drawer and have settled for her crumbs and leftovers and for being a babysitter while your wife dates another man.

Believe me -- your wife is well aware of this and so is her boyfriend. They know that she can bully and threaten you with her anger any day of the week, and you will back off and leave them alone. That's exactly what's happened so far, isn't it?

Until you refuse to be afraid of her anger, and can calmly invite her to do her worst, you have zero hope of recovering your marriage. You will be stuck in the situation you're in until doomsday, because your WW is quite happy having both you AND her boyfriend (especially since she knows you won't make a fuss because you are so afraid she'll get mad at you if you do.)

***Do you really think that just her seeing him, without talking, will prevent recovery and prevent her getting over it?***

You can bet your house on it. And it's not just her, 19 -- YOU will never get over living like this, stuffing your feelings and swallowing the immense public and private humiliation of knowing your wife is dating another man. This is what you will wake up to EVERY SINGLE DAY.

But you still think "her being mad at you" is the real threat to your marriage?
Mulan

19, the reason you won't expose is because it doesn't PERSONALLY BENEFIT YOU, [you wrongly think] that is what I mean by "not convenient."

But you also have a responsibility to warn this woman of what has transpired behind her back. That is a moral obligation. You do not have a moral obligation to protect your W frm the consequences of her behavior just to keep the peace because you are afraid of her. Your W's victim, the OMW, has a RIGHT to know what your W and her H have done to her so she can protect herself.

I know that you believe it will be "bad for your marriage," for your W to have to face the consequences of her affair, but let me assure you it will not. You have this BACKWARDS. What is bad for your marriage is keeping the affair secret and allowing them to CONTINUE contact like this.

She may be angry at having to face the consequences of her behavior, but your marriage will survive that. It may not survive WITHOUT IT because as long as you help them hide the secret, the easier it is for them carry on their affair.

If you are truly concerned about your children, then you should do everything in your power to kill this affair and make sure it stays killed. You should do everything in your power to ensure they don't SEE EACH OTHER AGAIN.

The AFFAIR is the most likely thing to cause a divorce, NOT your W's temporary anger.

Again, I am just telling you that your marriage will not recover as long as they continue to see each other. Of course your W is going to tell you she has no "feelings" for the OM; do you imagine that she is going to tell you she DOES? Of course not. She had "feelings" enough to have an affair with the man, and those feelings do not just vanish into thin air, I assure you.

MOST affair partners are very different from the spouse, that matters not a whit.

Don't take my word or the word of many others here who have BTDT; but take Dr. Harley's recommendation:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

ML - Why are you so convinced that the A is still going on? I have no real evidence of that - and I have tried very hard to find it. What have I said that makes you believe that - or is it based on other situtations you have seen over the years?

The reason I ask is simple - when it comes down to it, the only real reason I have not told OM's W is I do think it is over. If it's not over, we would be writing something different because I would have told her long ago.

One reason I really want to tell her is so we can check his cell records and see if W is still calling him. If she uses publics phones, I can't know.

Also, there is no "babysitting" going on - if the A is going on, it's while I am at work (she doesn't work) - so it is not going on under my nose.

Finally, what do you think of my "evidence"? Is it enough to convince someone who may not want to be convinced?

Orchid: Do you have a timeline of when the above events occured? Date specific is what I am looking for. This will help us help you see 'if' the A is still raging underground.


Orchid: Premediated acts usually leave clues but will try to hide any 'real evidence. That's why you have to be on your guard You will find the evidence you need soon. We are trying to prepare you when that happens, because it c/b devastating. My then WS and the OW planned a lot of stuff, including their D plans before I found out. You can bet that you and OM's W are hot topic points. Just the fact that the D pro and con list came out shows there has been premediated thought to their scheme.


Orchid: So you have your reasons. Do you realize that OM'w W may have more proof than you are aware of? That comparison of notes c/b a vital link to finding out the truth. This is hard, I know. You want to believe it isn't happening but it already did. Don't keep yourself in the dark and in denial. A's flourish when the BS stays in denial.


Orchid: EA or PA.....no matter where it happens or when it happens, it's under your nose. Why? Because u 2 are married 24/7.


Orchid; Your evidence is more than others have. Be smart. Don't stay in the dark. Expect she will get mad, threaten D, go to the lawyer, even make up false charges and file an RO against you, empty your bank account, take your children away, etc......EXPECT IT. Be prepared and take action so you and your family are protected. The police are very familar with A type scenarios. More men are being given credability than in the past but it is still hard if the W lies and files a report 1st.

I am not trying to scare you, just don't want you t/b caught unawares. If you haven't called Jennifer C @ MB yet....please do so ASAP. She will help you get a plan of action together.

How much are you willing to invest as far as time is concerned? If you are, go read Surviving an Affair (Harley) and Love must be tough (Dobson). Your sitch isn't unique. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The benefit is help is available 4 u. Then if and only if your WS wants t/b your W again, then help w/b available for her. Right now you can't teach her anything (as long as she is a WS). So the best thing is to get you into a good plan for u and your family. Learn how to handle the WS but not fix her. She needs to fix herself but you don't have t/b her personal punching bag. Ok?

L.

take care,
L.

19, I don't know if the affair is still going on. I think it probably is because all of her behaviors are like those of a WS who is still in an affair. For example, her aversion to snooping is a HUGE RED FLAG. Her lack of remorse is troubling, but ALONE is not necessarily a sign.

My GREAT CONCERN is the continued contact at church and your gut feeling that other contact might be taking place.

And yes, your evidence is plenty enough to expose to the OMW. What better evidence do you need than an ADMISSION? Ya can't get any better than that.

And the fact that the affair is supposedly over does not change the OMW's NEED TO KNOW. She STILL needs to be told. And the risk of a resumption is STILL GREAT as long as she doesn't know. The woman NEEDS TO KNOW so can protect herself from your W and break off all contact.

If the OMW knows about the affair, she can monitor activities from her end. She will also probably choose to leave your church. If she doesn't, then YOU need to be the one who leaves. You should not be going to the same church.


I don't understand what you mean here. Why couldn't she carry on the affair while you are at work? How do you know she doesn't call from your land line?

How old are your children?

ML - My kids are 5, 12 and 15 - out of curiousity, why?

I know she is not using the landline because I am still taping the line - it has not been on the whole time since the recorder broke and I had to get a new one, but it's been on most of the time and it's on now.

Her aversion to snooping is more related to the fact that I listened to calls between her and a friend - not just OM - of course, I learned how she really felt from that call - she just says she doesn't feel that way any longer -

And she could very well be continuing while I am at work - she has plenty of time and has already shown she knows how to use public phones .... I just mean she isn't doing it at night while I am literally babysitting.

I understand your point and concern about contact - I am worried about it too -

What I keep thinking though is this: over the past 5-6 weeks things have been pretty good between us. The only time we fight or act unhappy is when the A comes up. If I tell OM's W, that may change very quickly and for good. I may still do it anyway, but that's my concern.

Note - Orchid requested a time line which I will post in a few minutes, please let me know what you think based on that too - it might help explain some of this.

Thanks.

The bottom line concern for me is

Orchid - Timeline below as requested - probably more detail than you wanted. I would be interested to know what you (and everyone else who reads this) thinks.

As far as I know there have been no phone calls with OM since Feb 21. She saw him once in carpool line and exchanged pleaantries (kids were in car). She has seen him at church several times but has not talked to him (I was with her the entire time).

We have both talked to OM's W several times since Jan 21. OM stays away from me at church, but his W doesn't.

As far as the pros cons list, I think her IC got her to do it. Not good, I agree since that means they were talking about it, but it wasn't with him. She wrote up a resume too, since she'll need a job if we D. It was all together.

A couple of things you need to know:

1. Things have been very good between us over the past 6 weeks or so - very few arguments. Really only argue when talk about EA and have regular SF. I am confused about yourt doomsday scenario in your post - do you really think she'd do all that just for me telling OM's W?

2. I am not totally innocent. I have not treated her as nicely as she deserved for about 15 years. I didn't have an A, but I should have been nicer. I regret it and I have been working on it since Feb 1, even though it's been hard in light of how I feel now.

3. We have read all those books and done a lot of MC.

Here's the timeline:

Timeline:

September, 2004-January 21, 2006 – W and OM became good friends through church group. Hardly ever talked on phone, but saw each other a lot at meetings.

January 21 – OM declares love for W at church retreat – they hold hands and he “kissed her” (W says on cheek)

January 23 – January 31 – multiple lengthy cell phone calls. Not sure of home phone.

January 31 – I confronted W about cell calls. W told me they were just good friends. Also admitted she had seen him twice since Jan 21 – had coffee once and in carpool line once. She was actually defiant. Said they were friends and had done nothing. Said they had bonded over the weekend.

February 1 – She called him on home phone to tell him about the cell phone records. I was taping home phone so I heard it. He said he wasn’t calling her anymore and she cried. I confronted her. She said she wouldn’t call him anymore but was surprised I even cared. She never really broke down. Didn’t cry a lot.

February 2 – Saw marriage counselor – we had already been going.

February 3 – Talked to priest at church – W had to get out of group she was in with OM and we had to talk to priest to do that.

February 7 – OM called W on cell – she did not answer and told me immediately

February 15 – Wife made pro and con list of leaving me and OM was on list as a con to leaving me (since he is married).

February 20 – W has call with friend where she discusses relation with OM. Said they got “too close”, nothing physical, but emotion was “strong”. Said she had thought about what it would be like to leave me and live with him. Said she told me it would never be a PA, but she really didn’t know that. Said she came back to life.

February 21 – OM called W on cell phone. Told me she answered and they talked about a kid issue for 2 min. (our kids are friends). Told me about this. Did not tell me that she hung up and called him on real phone which I was taping. Totally platonic call except she told him I mentioned telling his W. He said “that can be dealt with too” and “he’ll just have to follow his conscience on that one”. OM has not called her since then – unless she has secret phone.

February 23 – I hear call with W and OM on Feb 21. I am livid and confront W. She breaks down completely (this was on phone). Tells me she is over him and doesn’t have a crush on him anymore and has crush on me. Also confesses that she had called him 3 or 4 other times since Feb 1 – used public phones (I never would have known). We had this discussion while she was in airport on her way to beach for 5 day trip by herself that I totally arranged for her so she could go “find herself” (her IC suggested this).

February 29 – I find her pros and cons list. Do not mention it to her.

March 10-12 – We attend 3 day marriage seminar for marriages in trouble. I thought it was very helpful and good. Sort of like these boards but in person. I think she felt the same way.

March 21 – She has call with friend where she implies that the friend had talked her out of calling OM 2 weeks or so earlier said “you didn’t help me out” … then said “I saw him at church yesterday, but I’ve been good”.

March 23 – I hear the March 21 call with friend, do not confront W about this one.

19, so she KNOWS that you are listening to her home phone calls?

The reason I wanted to know your children's ages was to determine if she is alone during the day. Is the 5 yr old in school?

Has she been completely open and honest about her affair? Has she honestly answered all your questions? I get the sense that she is very defensive about it.

ML - The 5 year old is in school all day this year for the first time (almost 6). W is alone all day and has been since September.

You are right - she knows I have listened to home phone - that's why she was using public phones between Feb 1 and Feb 22. I don't know if she knows I am still taping and I did stop for awhile, but it's back on now.

She is defensive - but - I do think she has honestly answered all questions and been open about it. Of course, I can't really know that for sure and she kept lying to me, the MC and even her friend from Feb 1 - Feb 22 when I caught her calling OM again. Her defensiveness is really coming from 2 places:

1. she downplays the A since it was not a PA - doesn't totally buy in to the EA concept at all - of course, she can avoid guilt by doing this, so it's logical that someone would try that even if it's over; and

2. she's been very unhappy with me in general for years - of course, she never bothered to tell me this and I do believe there has been some "re-writing" going on - she had the chance to tell me before the EA, and didn't.

Thanks for the timeline. It is still quite fresh and painful for you. Expect her t/b in withdrawal, which she is showing.

Btw, even if she tells you he called, take a look at your timeline. From Feb til now you know of at least 2 calls from the OM. What you don't know is how many other calls they had between each other. I'll bet it is more than you know. Check around her car for phone calling cards or another cell phone. The Ws and OW in my case had a secret voicemail # where they would leave sweet messaged for each other. Many use calling cards which keeps their phones looking like there is no calls.

Don't want to burst your bubble but I think your W is still in withdrawal and looking for a break to get back with the OM. Hope I am wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What does this mean 4 u? What do you think you s/b doing even if you don't have proof?


L.

Unfortunately, I think you are right – I do think she is calling OM still. I don’t have 100% proof, but I think I have 99% proof.

What I have is 2 phone calls over the past 2 weeks with friends where she implied she was still talking to OM.

I heard a call last night between W and friend which was on Sunday where she said “I’ve been behaving, not perfectly, but I’ve been behaving” – this was in response to a comment by her friend “I hope your heart is feeling better”.

Am I reading too much into that call? He friend knows about EA and OM, and does not approve. Like all friends, she supports my W, but doesn’t approve.

The other call was about 2 weeks ago and W said “you didn’t help me out the other day” … then said “I saw him at church yesterday, but I’ve been good”. The friend said she was not going to tell her what she wanted to hear. I think she called this friend when she wanted to call OM and friend tried to talk her out of it.

Anyway, I am going to tell OM’s W. It may blow up in my face, but I really don’t care at this point. I cannot live like this anymore. I would rather be divorced.

My plan is to gather my evidence, wait a few more days to see if I can hear any other calls and get one more phone bill and then tell her. I have (finally) decided there is no other way to stop this or be sure that it has stopped.

Anyone have any comments on the plan? Should I call OM’s W first and arrange a time to meet in one of our offices? We need it to be private since she’ll need to hear my tape and we may need a computer. Obviously, I would like to talk to her and show everything I have before she discusses with OM – so he can’t spin it too much. Also, I am hoping she can check his cell records so we can figure out easily if they are still talking.

How can W lie to me and act all happy and act like she loves me when she continues to do this behind my back?

Finally, we go to MC Wednesday morning (tomorrow). Should I mention this at all or let it slide until I talk to OM’s W? I am inclined to let it slide.

I told W a few weeks ago that I would divorce her if she called him again. I don’t know what to do about that.

Any advice would be appreciated. This is the worst I have felt since dday.

19, you have made the right decision for your marriage, I promise you. This will close the door on the affair, most likely, and enable your families to seperate so she can withdraw.

I like your idea of calling the OMW and inviting her over to hear your tapes. I only hope she doesn't call her H first, but that probably won't happen.

I wouldn't bring it up in counseling until after the deed.

Just expect that your W will be FURIOUS that you interfered with her affair. Expect to hear all manner of threats about how she was "going to work on the marriage but now she's not," "you have betrayed me," blah, blah, blah, blah... Don't let it disturb you because it WILL BLOW OVER. THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING.

She is simply angry that you ruined her affair, which is a GOOD THING. Just do not respond with anger, tell her you are so sorry she is upset, but you will do whatever it takes to protect your marriage from an affair. Tell her you love her dearly and then SMILE. Don't fight, don't get dragged into an argument.


Well, I am sorry you said that. But I hope you don't still feel this way. Your marriage is very salvagable as I believe this affair will die quickly and you can then get into REAL RECOVERY.

ML - Thanks. Unfortuntely, I do feel that way right now. I would prefer to divorce her. I think divorce would be a lot harder on her than me - she would have to get a full time job, money issues etc. - and it would serve her right. Her attitude is killing me (i.e. this is my fault and she has really done nothing since it's not a PA etc.).

I just got off the phone with her and she said she hasn't done anything recently (meaning she is not calling OM now). I am so sure she is lying. I just wish I had real proof. I just told her I don't believe her. I guess I need to play it cool until I talk to OM's W which will still be a few days since I do want one more phone record.

I am sure you are right about what she is going to say. In fact, I bet it will be pretty close to verbatim. Of course, it will be even worse if she really hasn't called him since Feb 22. She will be mad also because her opinion is that it isn't that big a deal and OMW doesn't need to know - "people don't need to know everything..." - what a joke. I guess we'll see how big a deal it is when OMW finds out.

What can I expect from OM's W? Will she get upset and cry etc.? I realize you don't know her, but what do you think?

19, usually the other betrayed spouse knew something was wrong and is grateful for the news. But you never can tell, sometimes they are shocked. So be prepared for just about anything. And I feel certain you will be sensitive and thoughtful if she does break down. Just don't let that scare you! I know that scares some guys, but it really is ok.

I know you are angry now, but if I were a betting woman, I would attribute her attitude to the fact that she is still in an affair. THAT ATTITUDE is the RESULT of being in an affair and not being in withdrawal. That is because she needs to demonize you in her mind in order to rationalize her affair. If no contact really does take place, her attitude will LIKELY CHANGE. This is one of the main reasons I have pushed so hard for this exposure.

I hope you do not make ANY DECISION at all about your marriage until this is over and you can assess the situation with a clear mind. This crisis has the potential of being the springboard for a GREAT MARRIAGE. That may sound crazy [and believe me, I am NO Pollyanna!] but please don't make any hasty decisions while you are angry, especially when there really is hope.

That really is pretty funny. As if the robber is in any position to determine what his victim needs or doesn't need! yikes! Your W is hardly qualified to decide what the OMW "needs." After all, she hardly "needed" to fool around with her H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It is funny isn't it? The funny thing about all of this is that the whole thing is so inconsistent with my W - I always thought of her as a very good, very moral person - (moreso than me, I always thought).

I never thought she'd have an A because she would feel too guilty - she has always been a very guilty person. I don't know what has happened to her. I think part of it is the fact that it is not a PA - she doesn't think she has to feel guilty. Or her IC is telling her things that make her think she shouldn't fell guilt about anything. Her IC does not support the A, but probably does try to help with guilt.

Or maybe I have worn her down for so long that she doesn't feel guilty anymore. I think that is what she wants me to believe.

I have found that many IC's do not know right from wrong and are very damaging to marriages. Manh of them counsel the WS to leave the marriage. My experience with them was that instead of cleaning up my behavior, they endeavored to LOWER THE BAR so that I could squelch my conscience by justifying bad behavior and be "happy" at all costs. Unfortunately, that is a fool's mission because happiness is the result of BEING GOOD, not being BAD. DUH

Ya can't kill the conscience for long, it usually has a way of rising to the top again!

Secondly, that is NOT YOUR WIFE. If she was a good, moral person before, she can be that again. What we usually see here is that affairs are an ABERRATION OF CHARACTER. She got caught up in an addicitive affair and is behaving in ways that would normally be repulsive to her. She is going through a mental process of rationalization that is all part of the FOG we speak about here.

BUT, they do come out of it and are usually quite remorseful after withdrawal. This is why I am pushing you to expose. Exposure will lead her to a place where she can seperate from the OM and truly withdraw. With withdrawal, her normal conscience returns.