It doesn't matter whether a married couple has joint or separate accounts. The important point is what they have agreed upon within their marriage. If a spouse abruptly changes their arrangements for joint to separate accounts without getting an agreement from their partner in the marriage, that is a big red flag. Such a thing is disrespectful and deceitful. Therein lies the problem.

And Mel..this got me to thinking...

Before learning about MB and my H's affair, I used to KEEP SECRETS from my H..nothing major:minor purchases/misbehavior of the boys.. like your H, he is more of a tightwad (good thing for us) because we have done well and continue to do well..

Actually, I've been surprised to find that I like our present relationship with RADICAL HONESTY on both of our parts much better. I'm SURPRISED at how accepting he is of my splurges. It's like he appreciates me telling him more than the spending bothers him. He tells me if he feels that I have overspent though.

In our new relationship, I feel guilty about keeping anything from him so I tell on myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />all of the time.

Interesting...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mel,

I haven't read any othe response's (yet), but I just wanted to say that I think EVERYONE should have money of their own to spend as they wish and not have to discuss it with the other and better yet if a limit is agreed upon through POJA (say $100 fun money each or something)

That you get to keep all or most of yours and spend as you like is your good fortune...but even in less well to do households I think both parties should get an "allowance" which their to spend as they want on what they want.

I know one couple who felt so strongly about this that the man (wealthy, wife didn't need to work)gave her a large sum of money when they married and told her it was hers to do whatever she wanted to do with but suggested she invest it so she would always have her "own" money coming in, and this would give her a feeling of personal earning and accomplishment. So she did invest it and also has her own little think going on now financially.

I also know a few Italian couples where the wife (doesn't work outside of the home) but has her own financial investments for the same reasons as above.

I will never give up having my own money...it would not be good for me for so many reasons, although of course I would first work for the financial good of the family if necessary.

Not very MB like I suppose... well in a way it might be because your husband agrees to you working and keeping your own money...so that is something which obviously works very well in your home.

I would LOVE to have seperate accounts but my wife insists that there's no reason to be married if we have seperate accounts. The old "what's yours is mine and mine is yours" thing I guess. My problem is that she spends money like there's no tomarrow. She never tells me when she's going to spend large amounts of money or how much her paycheck is, etc. It would be a full time job just to keep up and know what's in the checking account so I just try to make sure there's enough money in there. This makes it hard for me to pay bills sometimes. Is there enough in there? Who knows... I'll admit that I'll spend large amounts sometimes and keep it a secret because if she finds out she feels justified to run out and spend just as much or more so that we're even. It doesn't matter that I cut down my spending and saved to buy the item. In her mind I got something so she gets something too.

I think a seperate account and a fair split of the bills is the only way she'll learn to budget. How would you guys recommend that I convince her to either help with the bills and budget or get seperate accounts?

Gowithflow,

Why don't you try first of all POJA'ing an amount that each of you get to spend each week or month ($100 ?) where you just get the money and don't need to discuss it...or you each are allowed to spend a certain amount each month but anything over that amount must be POJA'd.

Does she POJA with you in other areas? Is she familiar with it?

Hey Mel ~

Sounds like both of you have secrets!

It does sound like a POJA is in order - because you should not be hiding how much of your marital assets are being spent! And of course, he shouldn't feel the need to hide money from you.

You are right, the question is, why does he feel the need to be dishonest? Is he protecting himself from you and his fear of your love-busting independent spending habits?

Why should it bother if you if he knows about how much you spent for moisturizer?

Is it because he won't be enthusiastic about it?

Lying to him or hiding it is simply disrespectful (my way is right), selfish (my way is more important) and controlling (I'll force you to do it my way). We lie to get our way!

As suggested earlier, why not ask him to discuss money with you? Ask him to reveal his stashes, and in exchange, negotiate a set amount that is yours and a set amount that is his to do with as you both please that you both agree to.

So you can take yours, and spend it as friviously as you like, and he can stash his away.

But both of you should know what the other one is doing!

LOL Mel !

When my FIL died, my H went to help his Mom get stuff organized ... on the floor of his Dad's clothes closet, my H opened up an old tool box to discover ... money ... lots and lots of TWENTY dollar bills. Every hour or so, my H would call me "I am counting this and so far it's up to 5 thousand!" ... then he'd call with another update.... "Now I'm up to 7 thousand." The final tally was just over 40 thousand on the floor of his closet in a tool box!

and MIL was LIVID .... if he was not already dead ... she'd have killed him! She was constantly told they could not affort any of the little nice things she wanted to purchase ... he was always "broke" ....

I'll never forget that.

I think the way we handle finances is usually parallel to how we manage our love life !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I really don't want to make a big deal out of my situation on this thread but I'll just say that she doesn't believe in MB. POJA's aren't her cup of tea. I've gotten her to agree to them before but never gotten her to follow through.

Ahhhhh... a topic near and dear to my heart, er, rather, my wallet.

My W is passive/aggressive at spending. Like Mel's H, she'll buy house brands at the grocery store, can save $35 with coupons on a $100 grocery run, and buys 80% of her clothes at garage sales. Thrifty doesn't even come close. However...she'll dole out money to our kids at the drop of a hat (the people pleaser in her). She'll go to garage sales and buy stuff we don't EVEN need, because it was a bargain.

I started a private/secret "slush" fund probably 12 years ago. Mostly because my W was totally anal about any money I'd spend. Some of the money was harmless personal purchases, life's little incidentals, but back then I'd occasionally visit a gentlemen's club and waste a wad of money. Over the years, all this morphed into a much more positive agreement, long before I knew about POJA.

My work necessitates travel, and I have a "personal" credit card to use for expenses, so I started a formal bank account to enable the ease of record keeping. It has both our names on it and is not a secret. I withhold $x.00 from each paycheck and keep it as cash each time I get paid. Often times, it's more than I spend, so I funnel it back into the "work" account. I also put my annual bonus check in that account. My W has complete access to the account and could check the balance at any time. This has been a wonderful solution to what was once a severe problem in our marriage.

Before, I'd get a pitifully humble allowance. If I needed clothes, or green fees, or to have cash on hand to entertain a client for lunch, I'd be short and have to ask for more. Then the twenty questions began, with me having to account for every cent I'd spent of my allowance. I felt like a 12 year old, asking for money. Needless to say, it pissed me off.

I still use the account to "hoard" money to a degree. I save and build during the winter months, and spend it down during the golfing months. Sometimes my bonus money goes to purchase a computer for our home, or a golf trip with my brothers, whatever, but not exclusively "my" money. My W has no issue with this.

In addition, we have POJA'd a rule where neither of us will spend more than $100 on anything without mutual agreement. That has worked extremely well and saved us a lot of grief.

Our biggest conflict now regarding moolah, and always has been, and probably always will be is the purchase of new household items...washer, dryer, TV's, stereo, dishwashers, etc. I will always research the products and spend whatever it takes to get what I feel to be the best possible product, to serve well, and to last as long as possible. My W is compelled to want to purchase the bare bones minimum, on sale, piece of crap available. This always creates conflict, and POJA is seldom 100% attainable, however, she is starting to believe in my decision making more and more as she hears of her friend's bargain appliances dying after only a year or two of service. Buying quality products IS cheaper in the long run.

One other point. My W hates that we set aside money for retirement, although she understands the need. She leaves all those decisions entirely to me, although she does "suggest" borrowing against, or cashing in, some of the investments occasionally. She does so only halfheartedly though, as that is a boundary I've never given in on, so our financial future seems to have a chance, so long as I work until I'm about 75. She, of course will retire at 62... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

People are funny about money, and other than adultry, it's a major cause of marital strife and divorce. I'm just thrilled we have no credit card debt, and if left up to me, we never will. Go with whatever you can mutually agree upon with your spouse, and to heck with what anyone else thinks of your specific solution, so long as it's working.

Best wishes,
SD

I don't find the not sharing of bank accounts as disturbing as it is that you are talking to a MALE friend about your personal home life and YOUR HUSBANDS without your husbands knowledge. Especially for someone that is speaks so forcefully to others about these very same issues.

The sign of trouble IS NOT the seperate bank accounts,but the sharing of personal information about your marriage to a MALE. He now has you stirred up and unable to see the very simple fact that you and your husband are doing just fine with finances just the way you are.

The first sign of trouble is NOT the finances but that you are sharing personal things with a male friend who now has you stirred up.

I wonder what you would say to others on here that were doing the same thing?

keepmvnforwd, he is not really a friend at all; I was using the term loosely. He was the instructor at a finance/investment class that I was considering taking. This was a question he asked in relation to the class. I don't even know the man.

I will comment on the other posts when I get back home.

We've been together 31 yrs and will be married 30 yrs this July. When my H and I married we came to the marriage starting from scratch. We both had saved for our honeymoon to Europe, that's it. I got pregnant a month after we married. I got a small inheritance which we used for a down payment on our house.

I was a SAHM for until our youngest was about 12, aside from going into our office a few times a week starting in '91. We have always had joint checking and savings accounts. When we separated we each had separate accounts both of which were closed when we reconciled. I have always done the bills and had the checkbook in my possession.

I got an inheritance just around the time of the last A. That money is in my own accounts and he understands that he gets none of that should we ever DV. He is the beneficiary.

I think may be different when there subsequent marriages where people already have other kids or assets established, or with older couples. I think that maintaining separate accounts may be more acceptable and make sense in those situations with possibly maintaining a joint bill paying account and savings with good use of POJA.

I believe the Harley's recommend shared finances and joint accounts using POJA forf everythinb.

Nice try Keep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

AskMe, I think the openess in your marriage about spending is what we are missing. And it is on both sides, I think. He hides money, as Aphelion said [you smartass! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] he is not an idiot. But no, we have NO joint accounts. No joint investment accounts, retirement accounts, nothing.

wow, cymanca, I wonder if my DH ratholing insurance policies, too? How grateful his W must have been when he passed!

Myshae, I think this is the crux of the issue, that we are not really happy with the situation. My DH is not happy with how I spend [read: squander in his opinion] and save. This bothers him greatly. It also bothers me that he has such issues with my spending. That really scares me and it bothers me that I have become so secrective about this without really realizing it. If I were going to be honest, I would be embarrassed for him to see what I BLOW. And rightfully so.

And Mimi, you are right, i don't feel comfortable with him knowing how much I spend on what. I DO discuss every major purchase NOW, and even that was hard to learn for me!

Right after we got married, I went out and bought a new Jeep that I liked. I called him from the dealership to tell him where I was and what I was doing. To my SHOCK, he was FURIOUS that I had bought this Jeep without ever consulting with him. He told me to LEAVE the dealership now! I was so SHOCKED! I thought he had lost him mind to be telling me, a GROWN WOMAN, that I should consult with him about buying a car. I couldn't imagine a MAN telling me what to do! Anyway, this was my introduction to the world of sharing decision making, an ENTIRELY new notion for me!

I feel like I have come a long way since that terrible day. Since then I do not buy anything over $200 without consulting with him first and "getting his opinion." That has helped him relax and he even seems much more open to major purchases when I approach it this way.

Mimi wrote:
This is what I am seeing too, Mimi. I have gone halfway, but I still have some way to go. And perhaps my fear is that he would be upset if he sees how much certain things cost, such as $135 for a bottle of face cream, etc. I don't want to have to fight that battle every time I need something. But perhaps the answer is to agree on a budget and start from that point as Askme suggested.

weaver, I have always supported myself so I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to depend on someone for my money or for someone else to have control of my money. That is a foreign notion to me. So, I very much agree with what you said about having my own money. Even if we combine our funds, I would have to have my own credit cards and a cash allowance that is MINE.

Bramblerose wrote:
You are exactly right, BR, we are being dishonest with each other. The reason I don't want him to know what I spend on moisturizer is because he will be less than enthusiastic, he will have me committed! He couldn't possibly understand why I would spend that amount on something he believes I could get at Walmart for $4.99.

I think he is fearful of my spending habits and believes I will put us in the poor house. But as you pointed out, honesty is the answer here and I do know that. I did not trust him when I married him, and that may have a lot do with why our finances initially stayed this way. But we have evolved way beyond that phase and do love and trust each other now. There is really no excuse to continue this way.

shattereddreams, you and your W are both such mixed bags! You are right that people are funny about money. I am extremely grateful that I married such a frugal man. I cannot BEAR financial insecurity or indebtedness and I know that with him, I will never have to endure that.

Trix, part of the reason we have such seperate finances is because this is my 3rd and his 2nd. I came into this marriage with a very non-permanent point of view. This is HOW I WAS RAISED. So the notion of blending finances or giving another person any control is foreign to me. But, I am in a BUYERS marriage for the first time in my life. And I want to make decisions that benefit my marriage. That involves, in my mind, some transparency and much more honesty. And perhaps some changing of my own spending habits.

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. This is an area of my marriage that I sure didn't want to look at and don't have experience in, so I appreciate the viewpoint of folks with healthy outlooks about marriage.

From an Estate Plan Attorney's perspective in 2nd/3rd/... marriages where their are children from a prior marriage it is often considered pratical to maintain individual accounts. Especially if the marrying couples assets are substantially disparate (prenup strongly advised). Husband and wife would each have their own Revocable Living Trusts funded with their own assets to be divided up upon their death as each sees fit. In fact, unless they are both dividing it up the same, they should have separate legal representation.

Many times I have advised such couples to provide in trust documents that the estate is to be divided up 50/50 (or whatever their % desires are taking account the particular facts of each case) between their current spouse and the kids from the previous marriage (there are a million ways to split it up but this is a common one)...then each spouse purchases a life insurance policy with the other as the beneficiary to make up the difference. Of course, some choose to keep it all joint and buy a life insurance policy naming either the kids or the revocable trust as the beneficiary. Remember, nearly all of the clients that draft full estate plans and revocable living trusts have hard assets totalling more than a million dollars. In smaller estates, with healthy adult children, often the intent of both spouses is the surviving spouse gets it all. Whoever lives longest ...WINS.

Careful planning results in more harmony between the surviving family members. Often the kids won't even have to know about the spouse's life insurance policy as it passes outside the probate estate unless the estate is so substantial that it has to file a federal estate tax return. In that case, usually everyone is happy (not that you're dead...you know what I mean). Without an estate plan everybody is very unhappy, greedy, spitefull...I've seen some doseys...a plan must be in order.

Thinking aloud....another way to maintain shared finances in a 2nd marriage situation where the kids from a previous marriage are to be provided something may be to look at your 401k or IRA savings. All joint monies and assets would pass to your spouse automatically but the retirement savings could be left in percentages to any combination of kids and spouse. These monies would also be tax leveraged...as long as you properly name individuals rather than your estate or trust the recipient beneficiaries could elect to withdraw the money over their anticipated life expectancy (utilizing IRS tables) and thus tax leverage the inheritance and postpone the income taxes due thereupon. Thus less money could actually provide a greater benefit to the younger generation and thus "equal" out YOUR testamentary desires without sacrificing to much of your spouses support expectancy.

Man...I've got myself turned around here and perhaps lost a number of you. Leave it to the lawyer to say a bunch but not say much of anything. But, assuming the really, really wealthy here have their own tax attorney perhaps the IRA/401k planning can be utilized by the majority without having to do a whole estate plan...though it should be monitored regularly as 401k/IRA's are ever fluctuating assets so the beneficiary designation should be revisted and perhaps recomputed with your financial adsivor annually.

Mr. Wondering

Mel, what is the difference between $5 and $135 face cream? Really, as a man I cannot rationalize this large discrepancy.

And I would have to agree with mimi that being honest goes a long way. Sometimes the other spouse just wants to feel like they have a say.

My WW would completely loose it if our bank account went into overdraft, but she doesn't think twice about $200 on a pair of shoes or $85 (Canadian funds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) on moisturizing cream. Yes Mel I don't get why those creams cost so much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

H and I had a joint account right from the start of marriage. We agreed on everything for the most part, although without some agreed-upon "fun" money, there was a tendency to feel a bit guilty for some purchases.

During my H's A, we were separated. I had been a SAHM and we were living on his student loans during his program. I was informed by him that I could have as much of his loans as I wanted provided I paid it back in the same fashion as he would have to. That "offer" and 1/2 of the monthly income we had from a rental property constituted my child support.

I talked to a lawyer who basically said that with no actual wages to garnish, there wasn't much I could do until he got out of school.

I was totally broke, had been out of the work force for three years, was living with my parents, and had all my credit history tied up with his. I was denied for a credit card with a measly $500 limit.

Now that we're back together, we have maintained our separate accounts, with each person responsible for household expenses equivalent to the percentage of household income s/he brings in (which is fine by me, since I make 1/3 of what H does).

I will likely never have a joint account with him again. I am more comfortable sharing my bed with a former wayward than my chequing account. I can deal with sexual and emotional betrayal - it is the financial betrayal that is causing me the most problems in recovery.

G

Mel-you said:



Interesting. I have never had his viewpoint on MARRIAGE..We believe..still do..what's yours is mine.. So do you have YOUR CHAIR and HIS CHAIR..HIS BED and YOUR BED..YOUR COOKIES and HIS COOKIES...Do you label things around the house?..Kind of just kidding, Mel...

Why is money any different?

If you are married, why is it YOUR money?

I think Harley would define this as INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR which he considers a HUGE LOVEBUSTER.

My H makes more money than I do and its once again all being deposited in OUR account. It's OUR money. Half of it is MINE...which is OK because we are MARRIED and HE is my HUSBAND..what's his is rightfully mine and vice versa...I thought this was the way marriage was supposed to be...

Mimi, it is not any different, that is the point of this thread. I think you misunderstood the point of my post, though. Even if we combine our money, I would still have my own spending money, as he would have his. We would each have credit cards. That is NOT independent behavior, nor is it a lovebuster. I see it as a well negotiated POJA.

Thanks for the excellent advice, Mr Wondering, I am still trying to figure out the big words, but appreciate your points. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hopethisworks, if you don't know the difference between a $5 and a $135 jar of moisturizer, then you are simply BEYOND HOPE, my friend! MEN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

giselda, I hope the situation turns around in your marriage and you grow to restore trust in him. But you and I both know that trust has to be earned. sorry you have had such a rough time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is a good one for me. When I was in high school, my parents had a very tumultous marriage. For my birthday, my mom bought me the book, "The Burning Bed," and said, "Honey, you read this and you'll never let yourself get in a position financially where you can't leave." Yikes.

I, too, work as hard as I do so that I have a certain amount of independence with how I spend my money. So, I've given a lot of thought to finances!

My H and I have joint accounts, but we each have a card in both of our names, but only one of us uses it. If we need to purchase a big thing and use one, we discuss which card to put it on. We pay them back out of our joint account.

We agreed to talk to each other first if the other wants to buy something over $100. This works well. If we both got raises, we would probably raise this to $200. We agree to how much we put in savings, and we talk if we want to splurge with whatever is more than that. Say I want special makeup, etc., I COULD make separate purchases to not go over that limit, but I don't -- I tell him upfront I'd like to splurge, and that I'll cut back on X. Then I do.

I couldn't live with someone who nitpicked every little thing I want to buy, so I try hard not to do that to him, although I have insisted he send certain things back that he's gone over the limit without talking to me. Only a couple of times, but it does irritate me -- the broken agreement moreso than the actual money spent.

What I fear is that someone would use money to gain control and power over me. If I can let down my defenses enough and I have trust that my H has our best interests at heart, our agreements work well for us now. I feel good that this works as well as it does and I don't feel the urge to lie. So, a small victory for us!

Oh, on a side note: I bought this book called "Don't Go to the Cosmetics Counter Without Me," by Paula Begoun. (cosmeticscop.com) It analzyes just about every cream, foundation, eyeshadow, etc., on the market and tells you which are worth the money and which absolutely are not -- which have the safer, more effective ingredients and which, even though expensive, can harm your skin. With the money I save by not ALWAYS buying the Lancome, etc. products, I now have developed a bit of a Chico's addiction.

Shellybird