19,

Your defense, even if your wife has been in "No Contact" is that it is the RIGHT THING TO DO. You keep telling us that it MAY be a mistake if she is in No Contact and I just don't agree with you. You will take flack for this exposure either way but it really MUST be done. You just stand firmly behind the fact that as the leader of your family you made the correct moral decision to allow OM's Wife to have the secret information which so seriously effects her life.

You point out further the following:

"If I accept what you and OM did and "protect" your secret even to the limited extent that I currently know about it, then I necessarily become your co-conspirator and I would be wrong. I had a moral obligation to tell OM's Wife the facts that effect her life and I believe, in the long run, that you wouldn't want a husband, nor would you respect again a husband as a man who knowingly does the wrong thing".

Mr. Wondering

Smartcookie - I really hope you are right.

I have done the best I can since dday (Feb 1) to stop being a jerk. Obviously, it's been hard since I am extremely mad at my W for what she did. I would say that I have done OK - not perfect, but OK - and a very big change. She has noticed. Says it makes her mad that I have to try and that why couldn't I have done it years ago.

What I have to do is act like I am not disappointed in her all the time, not give cold shoulder etc. That is what I have done too much of for 15 years. I hope she has re-written some - but I am not sure.

I would hope she could forgive me if I can forgive her.

One problem, she does not consider her EA to be that bad - so I am not forgiving her for that much in her mind.

Finally, her A may very well be over - I don't know either way. I suspect it's not, but I have no proof. If it is over, exposing may make my situation worse.

But, I am not sure I care. I can't live with her if I have to worry about it constantly, so I need to tell.

Thanks.

Hi 19. This probably isn't the time, but after you've exposed we should share stories. Before my FWW's A I was a bigger jerk than you could have been for 13 years. You may have more years but I claim the award for jerkiness. I changed completely; she noticed, and it's contributed to an upturn in our M. Recovery may not have been possible if I hadn't committed 100% to addressing my flaws.

First I had to conquer my fears and expose. You won't regret it. And whatever you do keep listening to Mel. And the others.

19, good luck with it all; it sounds as though your motives are in the right place

19 - re: being a jerk

Hence, Plan A.

The vast majority of affairs are just symptoms of marriage disease. "Being a jerk" is one of the myriad ways of getting the disease going, but the disease is rarely incubated by just one spouse. This is the whole point behind the MB notion of the love bank and meeting emotional needs.

I hope this is not new info for you.

But just in case it is, below is my canned rendition of Plan A. Take it for what it's worth:

The way I understand Plan A, it's based on two premises that must be accepted for “garden variety” affairs:

1. The BS (betrayed spouse) cannot end the affair.

2. The affair developed, to some extent great or small, due to a poor marital environment which the BS, also to some extent great or small, contributed to.

If a BS cannot accept these two statements as givens, they will not be able to implement Plan A.

With these facts established, there is only one constructive thing a BS can do to influence the course of an affair: change the affair-friendly marital environment by eliminating the BS contributions to it.

To this end, the BS must perform an introspective search for all the things they were doing or not doing that contributed to the WS's (wayward spouse) decision to have an affair - and then eliminate those negative contributions. These may include failure to meet emotional needs or disbursing too many love busters - but is usually some combination of both.

This DOES NOT mean that the BS "caused" the affair. This DOES NOT mean that the BS can or should try to change failings of the WS.

It simply means that the BS needs to change and improve the only thing they have control over - themselves - to eliminate love busters and begin meeting as many emotional needs of the WS as they can.

Central in this is stopping all disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and selfish demands. This is agonizingly difficult in the face of an affair. A BS has to counter the common knee jerk reactions of demanding the WS "straighten up" and delivering ultimatums and threats. Acting in this fashion simply reinforces the WS's rationalizations to conduct the affair in the first place - because the marriage "is over" or expendable and the spouse is unreasonable, therefore the affair is justifiable.

Invariably, this course leads BSs to feel like doormats and [censored] kissers. It also conjures up thoughts of enabling the affair by not resisting it. But the better logic to apply is that the BS isn't a doormat or enabling because they're doing the only things in their power to stop the affair - it's just counterintuitive to the initial reactions. This doesn't mean that boundaries shouldn't be set and protective measures shouldn't be taken.

Let me add that Plan A is all about the BS. You do not "Plan A" your WS. It is not intended to change ANYTHING but the BS.

Remember, despite outward appearances, the WS is very likely torn between the excitement of the OP vs leaving the BS and family. They invariably wonder, “Can I have both?” When they realize the answer is no, they next wonder, "how long can I stall before choosing?" It’s during this “stall” that demonstrating Plan A improvements is vital. Why make it easy for the WS to choose the OP by providing a less than competitive choice?

I'll end this by offering that there is one additional thing a BS can do to alter the course of the affair - but I call it "destructive" rather than "constructive" (to separate it from the one and only constructive thing, discussed above). It's to expose the affair to the light of day. But this deserves its own discussion.

OK, one more thing. The affair is very, very likely to end DESPITE what the BS does or does not do. Until it ends, there is NO chance for reconciliation. Ideally, Plan A improvements can encourage the WS to end the affair sooner because the spouse's "causes" of it are eliminated. But regardless, following Plan A prepares the BS for a successful reconciliation whenever and for whatever reason the affair ends by jump starting the process - their share of pre-existing marital problems are already confronted.

weneedhelp - I would like to compare stories sometime. Maybe you do have me beat in the jerk category. My W doesn't seem to think anyone could. I'd also be interested to know how you changed, since my M has no chance either if I don't change. I have changed some, I just need to keep it up and try to get even better.

WAT - I have definitely been trying to do Plan A - or at least close to it. In fact, the only time I am not able to stick to it is when we start talking about the EA. Sometimes I probably do some LB's when that happens.

While I have done OK, I have not been a doormat at all. Maybe I should have been more of one but I can only take so much crap.

My W has recognized the changes I have made - she's told me she has. That's one reason I am reluctant to expose. I think that will hurt me in that regard. Doing something nasty, behind her back etc. - OM's W is a friend of my W's - not a real good friend, but a friend and our kids are good friends. A bad situation all around.

Also, as far as I know, there has been no contact since Feb 20 - I have no proof of contact after that. I do have a bad feeling, however, and some very weak evidence. Enough that I really think I have no choice but to expose, but not enough that I am not worried - seems to me that if the EA is over, then exposure will make it worse for me.

But I need to do it anyway. I am not going to worry about this forever and I until I tell OM's W, I think I will worry.

Thanks.

Mr. Wondering - That is a very compelling statement. I agree with you.

W is of the opinion, however, that we don't really need to know everything our spouses do and sometimes we are better off not knowing. She thinks the EA was minor because it was just an EA and was over quickly.

Now, I don't agree with that at all - and I sure as ****** would have wanted someone to tell me. I only point this out because W's attitude is, obviously, going to affect how she reacts to this.

19,

I don't want to get you too far off track or distract you from the task at hand... but I do want you to hold onto the hope that the improvements you are making to yourself can go a long way toward healing your marraige -- regardless of the past.

You wrote:



I'm curious, how do you respond when she says this?

Also,


Doesn't matter. Or shouldn't. It's not a matter of "I'll forgive you if you forgive me." If I implied that in my post, I didn't mean to. I can see how it probably came across that way.

In my case, the series of events went like this: My affair ended. A couple of weeks later, I told my H that I didn't love him and thought I might want a D. Three weeks after that, I told him about my A.

When I first told him how unhappy I was in the marriage, he shocked me by immediately taking responsiblity for his neglect and starting to make changes. I was already well on my way toward forgiving him BEFORE D-day (ie before I even knew whether or not he would forgive me).

Your wife seems to be having a little more trouble in that department. Her response that 'you should have done it all sooner' seems to be common for WW's. But if you keep at it, I really believe she'll come around.




Why do we human beings distrust our insticts so? They are ussually right... if we just learn to listen to them and trust them.

--SC

That's her prerogative to choose ignorance in her own life, but she is not qualified to choose such a thing for her victims. She is the LAST PERSON who is qualified to decide what is in the best interest of the OMW to know or not know since she inflicted the damage.


She hopes by minimizing the affair, that it will minimize the consequences and minimize your focus so she can be free to carry on the affair.

19, no matter what her attitude towards this, a WS who is not showing remorse is not going to welcome getting busted and having all avenues of approach [to the OM] cut off. So don't worry about her attitude, it is expected it will be bad.

I agree that this is a common response and that if the BS can continue a strong Plan A for a sustained period of time the WS will have more difficulty remembering the "bad" times.


SC, this is very true and I'm much more trusting of my gut feeling now. It is there for a reason...all we need to do is listen to it.

QUOTE: I'm curious, how do you respond when she says this? /QUOTE

I say - I wish I had changed earlier too. I also wish that I understood what I was doing before the EA and then I think I would have changed. Unfortunately, it took the EA for me to see what I was doing. What I was doing had become a habit and pattern of interaction and I didn't really see what I was doing.

Of course, W had chances to tell me clearly and didn't. We were already in MC and I told MC "We don't have bad problems, just some underlying problems that could get bad if we don't work on them...." That was in October, 2005. W agreed with that. Now she says she knows she lied about that.

My point is only that if she had said something then (or even earlier) it might have gotten my attention. It was never made clear until the EA (Feb 1) - obviously, that makes me wonder what role OM and EA had in all this.


QUOTE: Why do we human beings distrust our insticts so? They are ussually right... if we just learn to listen to them and trust them. /QUOTE

I am going to trust my instincts here - I may live to regret it, but I think I would rather that happen than spend the rest of my life wondering what she is doing.

Also, W said today that if I couldn't get over A pretty quickly, she'd rather just get divorced. I think the quickest way for me to get over it is tell OM's W (maybe only way).

19,



Good. You can't change the past, you can only do better in the future. You might also consider adding some version of, "I really am sorry for all the times I hurt you." into the mix.

By the same token, she can't change the past either. So you might want to let go of...


and...


It might have gotten your attention, it might not have. There's no way to know for sure. I wish I had had a heart-to-heart with my H sooner, too. But I didn't. For a million different reasons. And there's nothing I can do about it now. The point is, holding this against her is not going to help your cause. Let it go...

Take care, 19.

--SC

19; Like you, I wasn't sure exposure was the right way to go. Also, my WW had told me point blank that she would D me if I exposed. So it took quite awhile for me to do it. Ultimately I thought we were going down the tubes anyway, so decided to expose - with lots of support from Mel and other terrific posters here. Better damned for action than for inaction.

Your situation doesn't seem quite as threatening re: the potential bad aftereffects immediately after exposure. I say do it. But only you can weigh the potential costs and benefits. Just don't underestimate the potential benefits, they are huge.

Even in our dire case, we've pulled through it. 1st month after exposure was really rough. She did see D attorneys as promised, but didn't file. Then I got resentful and saw D attorneys myself - but also didn't file. Then I started working on my own flaws. Recovery followed; now 3+months into it. Best wishes for you and your M.

weneedhelp - When you exposed, did you know WW still in contact with OM? That's my concern - I don't have real proof of real contact (actually talking) since Feb 20 - I have a gut feeling and some very weak evidence.

Not sure my M is down the tubes yet - unless there is still contact with OM. If there is, then that's the worst for my M. So I have to expose even at the risk of pissing her off if there no further contact. If there has been further contact, then she can't very well be pissed - can she? Or I won't care if she is.

Thanks/.

Smartcookie - Thanks. I don't hold it against her that she didn't make it clear earlier - I really don't. I really wish she had, but you're right, I might not have gotten it then either.

I do wonder whether the EA and the OM have anything to do with what she says now - since she has made her displeasure real clear since dday.

Thanks./

My FWW seemed pleased with the M, then after starting her A she really felt my flaws deeply.

<Edited>
Re exposure, Yes I knew my FWW was still in contact. So it's different than your situation. In your fuzzier situation I'm not completely clear whether exposing is best, but I tend to think it is. In my own case, I felt I was doing right by delaying exposure in hopes my FWW would stop the A by herself, avoiding the pain associated with exposure. Before that I dithered on finding out OM's identity. I'd say the dithering time extended a really painful time for me, and allowed the A to go further than it might have had I moved quicker, but it also gave me time to benefit from MB and mount a good Plan A.

Our case was a sort of infatuation by my FWW - rather than a love affair - and earlier exposure would likely have stopped the A sooner. All-in, I think I should have moved quicker.

I'd say your fear re exposing and mine are the same in this sense; both of us fearing that exposing would drive WW away. In my case that was a very very real risk, and yet in the end exposing did not drive her away.

I am sure about this though. Whether you expose or not - and ESPECIALLY if you expose - you really need to make it completely irrefutably clear that you love her, and are willing to fight for her and do what it takes. You will take some arrows, and lots of them will come from her. That's part of it. Doesn't matter; you need to make it clear beyond any doubt that you will go the extra mile for her.

If you do that your M will recover more quickly, whether you expose or not. Plus, that's what we are called to do for our wives. Even if they go off the path, we are still to love and care for them.

< personal aside; for me, 'going the extra mile' and 'fighting for her' meant an inward-directed fight against my own demons and flaws. Maybe for you as well? >

weneedhelp - what do you mean by "< personal aside; for me, 'going the extra mile' and 'fighting for her' meant an inward-directed fight against my own demons and flaws. Maybe for you as well? >"

I think my W's EA is more of an infatuation too - but I am not sure. I think she just likes the attention and the feeling she gets from OM being attracted to her - sort of funny considering he's married (so he is a sh!thead and she knows it) and he wouldn't be that great a catch.

You understand my dilemna over exposure. I don't think I really have much choice. What I really wish is that I knew for sure whether there was still contact - either way - just real knoweledge. That's one of the things that sucks so bad about all this - you are in the dark and they are sneaking around behind your back.

19, it really is not a dilemma at all. Let's say she is not currently in contact, you know for certain that she is thinking about him, which means she has not shut that door. IF contact is ended, it is only temporary. She is not in withdrawal and she is still talking to her friends about it.

Your exposure will SLAM that door shut and allow your marriage to recover. That is impossible as long as she is allowed to continue to see him.

So, be brave, 19. Do the right thing, get this over with so you can move onto the next step.

I would also point out that weneedhelp was ADAMANT that his wife would leave him if he exposed. We kept telling him she wouldn't. And, of course, she didn't. She was mad for a while, but it all blew over and he was able to move onto the business of recovery.

ML - Thanks. That's actually a great point regarding the fact that even if there has been NC, she is still thinking about it and the door needs to slammed. She always talks to her friends on her cell phone now - so I can't tape.

I am biding my time just a bit, but I am going to do it.

I actually re-listened to the most recent "friend" call this morning and I am a little more convinced there is contact. It went like this: "I've been trying to behave myself. I have not been behaving perfectly, but better". The person she told this too would not approve at all since she has been a BW herself. But they are very close.

One other thing that I actually thought of this morning: OM's W has been through this before. OM is her second or third H - not sure which. I know for a fact that her previous H cheated on her - he got someone pregnant and ulitimatly married the OW. I forgot about that until today - what effect do you think that will have on her reaction? Especially since this is "just" an EA as far as I know?

Mel was absolutely right. She was the prime mover for me to expose. It was the right move. Smart lady - listen to her.

I meant that my own personal fight was not with WW, or even with OM. I had a fight with the A, yes! But not with her.

Beyond that, my personal fight was against the little demons sitting on my shoulder telling me to hate her. And the other demons telling me to resent her, divorce her, to just give up and roll over, and all the other nasty little buggers. Even more, my fight was one to make myself a better person and a better husband.

I haven't completely won any of those fights. Yet. But I am winning all of them. And I have many allies - most of them here - and I know God is on my side in those battles. And he is also at my FWW's side helping her recover. I know you have his help, and I wish you the same success.