Change in plans for those who have seen my threads - I will expose tomorrow - Wednesday - to OM's W. No real reason, just tired of thinking about it and ready to *&^% back.

Not sure what will happen - and not sure I care.

Can't do it first thing since meet with MC early in morning.

Need some encouragement since I am sure I will not be as steadfast tomorrow as I am now.

Thanks.

I know you are angry, as you have every right to be. Just try to examine your motives so that the exposure does not just emanate from hostility and revenge. If it is done in the wrong spirit, it may cause even more destruction.

Exposure is the BEST most EFFECTIVE weapon you have to combat an affair.

I took my time with my WH, don't waste anymore time worrying and/or thinking about it.

Just do it... You will be glad you did.

Jen

Well, I haven't read your thread, but I wanted to wish you luck and strength.
My biggest regret in all of this was not exposing fast enough. I know it can be scary, but it really is imperative and puts lots and lots of pressure on the A.
I am sure you've heard that the WS will not be happy. But that is short lived.

Good luck. You can do it!

Rooting for you over here in texas!

193,

Congratulations on having your fears and acting anyway. You can do this. It is your choice. It is not a destructive one.

Have you decided to expose to everyone? Would be a good thing to eat the frog whole...not in pieces. Expose tomorrow to OMW...and all others. Phone calls will get easier each time. Heed sjaj, Jenn's and intexas' advice...

Know your intent.

Know that this is the truth of their actions, not your choices.

Know that not exposing is covering the affair up, hiding it, condoning it to yourself.

You're worth more than that. You matter. Your marriage matters.

LA

Thanks to each of you - I have worried about it and I know she'll be quite pissed - but I don't really care anymore. It's sad that I have gotten to that place, but I have.

While I recognize my responsibilty in all this, I don't think I deserved this and it's time for it to end - one way or another.

Thanks.

I agree you should hit all the exposure targets in one bang. Catches them by surprise, and it makes it easier on you, too.

You telling isn't what is wrong. LA is correct--their actions are wrong.

Exposure won't end your marriage--the affair might, but not the exposure. Exposure helps end the affair, something that can only serve to help your marriage, as recovery cannot happen without it.

Good job, 19! We will be here for you. Have you decided to meet with her?

Other than OM's W, who else should I tell? W has already told several of her friends and relatives - should I tell her mother? That would really piss her off - her mother is very judgemental - might put W into shock - which would be good -

So, who else? My parents? They may not forgive her even if we are able to recover.

One thing you need to know - I am not sure that EA is not over. I hope OM's W can help me confirm one way or another. But not sure.

I think her mother is a good target. It adds pressure. That is what you need.

Just remember this one thing when you are gathering up your nerve tomorrow.....

You will not be alone !

All of us will be right there with you


carnation

I hope this goes well for you and accomplishes the healing you need. Her mom may be some help in shocking her out of it; as for your parents, again examine intent. If you wish to share with them to further your own healing, do so. If you believe it may be terribly difficult to recover that relationship, you may want to reconsider that.

ML - Thank you for responding. I needed to hear from you.

Yes, if I can arrange it, I will meet her tomorrow. Of course, I have to work it with my schedule and hers - if not tomorrow, then Thursday - i.e. ASAP - I am tired of worrying about this - let the chips fall where they may.

It will probably take 2 hours - I have at least 1.5 hours of phone calls ..... and she probably needs to hear it all. I have to see MC first thing and then conf call at 10:15 - I hope after that ...

Anyway, it has to be in person to show her what I have (phone records) and let her hear the tape - only real evidence.

Thank you for your support and guidance.

19, I have a meeting at 11:00 cst but will be around from 1:00 on and most of the morning. If I am not here, others will be here to help you. You will do just fine, my friend.

My WW’s reaction anger was really short lived. She is now sugar coating everything.

Do it, and then don't back off. People have the most horrible rationalisations to protect feelings. You will see who your friends are.

Good luck, and be brave, ask for people’s help.

DLK21

Is there any way to just show up? If you set up a meeting and before the meeting OM catchs wind of it he may undermine the exposure with warnings of stark raving mad jealous husband...she will in fact be less likely to believe your evidence as her perspetive to what you say will be altered. Try not to give much time between calling her and showing up...kinda like "I'm in the neighborhood and need to drop off something."

good luck 19

Mr. W

I have just joined the board, having just found out my DH is having an affair, and he knows I know.
I applaude you for what you are about to do. I too am thinking that in the school holidays next week of taking my 3 children into his workplace for lunch. It will be very very hard for me as she works there and apparently the whole office knows about the affair now (as she proudly broadcast that she had made the conquest she was after).
But I think if I can do it, be strong and brave and show up with our 3 little ones to have lunch with 'daddy' it might make the rest of the workplace even more appalled with the situation.

Anyway - best of luck with your 'exposure'

Justine

Here's a few suggestions:

1. I know you will have an opinion at how I handle this situation which has devastated my family. I would appreciate your support and constructive criticism but before I tell you anything more, I ask you respect my decisions. For I am not able to tell you everything but will tell you enough so you are able to help. It is not that I don't want you to know all but it is safer for all of us if you don't. Right now someone is anxious to bring a lot of hurt to our families and friends. I want to minimize the hurt and begin the healing. Will you help me?


2. Make sure you know your reason for exposing.
Bring this out in a short statement at the beginning.
Something like: I am taking the chance of telling you this information in hopes you won't suffer in shock as much as I have. My family has been devastated and your family is affected as well.

3. Make the exposure info short. Ask if they have any questions or concerns.

4. Thank them for being part of your support group. Providing they agree t/b.

All the best,

L.

Good for you 19!..I think it's best to get it over with quickly anyway..no use in torturing yourself by dwelling on it for days..

Will be thinking about and praying for you today..!

Perhaps I'm too late, but just wanted to comment about scorched earth exposure versus "surgical" exposure - you've received advice to go both ways.

The truth is, IMHO, that no one can predict whether exposing to all at once or in pieces will be the best for any given case. I honestly don't think this can be predicted. Both ways have ample examples of success noted on this forum.

This is why I and others frequently suggest the expanding concentric circle approach: start with the smallest, inner circle - tell your spouse you know. Next, or if spousal exposure is moot, go for OP's spouse.

The next circle may be immediate family, "mature" children, etc.

Each circle likely includes more and more people - and you build up to scorched earth. In every case, exposure should be made to those who reasonably are influential to the WS. As the crowd grows, less influential people get included because it's unavoidable, e.g., exposure in a church.

At each expansion, give time for the WS to realize that more exposure has occurred. rare is the need, IMHO, to continue after "uncle."

Good luck and stand tall.

Mr. - That is a good point - I can't really just show up, but I can get close before I call. Thanks.

While I do still plan to do it today - I will admit that I am waffling a bit (probably natural).

Went to MC today and I just don't know if W is still in contact with OM. If she is not, I am worried exposure will make things worse.

But I am going to do it anyway.

Thanks.

WAT, no one has told him to take a scorched earth approach, but to expose to two key people, the OMW and the WW's mother.

I think folks should expose in the most effective manner possible for thier OWN situation, whether that be a "concentric circle" or a one shot list of key targets, whichever makes the most sense. The "concentric circle" would be ineffective in many cases, and the one shot exposure would not be neccessary in others. Each case has to be independently assessed.

I think that trying to adhere to a specific TACTIC, ie: concentric circles for example, rather than focusing on WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE FOR MY SITUATION is a big mistake, IMO.

For example, I have seen folks [the conflict avoider who is looking for the easier, softer way] absolutely neutralize their exposure leverage by using "concentric circles" by exposing to a MIL one week, a "friend" the next, a neighbor next month. That is a completely ineffective exposure, which could have been effective if it had been done in one fell swoop.

Sometimes there ARE NOT multiple circles, but just a very few KEY PEOPLE who need to be exposed to at ONE TIME in order to get the maximum impact. And if a newbie doesn't know any better, or is the typical CA we see on here every day, and breaks up that tiny circle, they have wasted that valuable weapon. And that is partly because the make up of a "circle" cannot be defined in an objective way that applies to ALL situations. There is not a standard definition to begin with and the cast of characters changes in each situation.

I strongly think that each case should focus on THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY rather than a TACTIC as each case is different.

19, you are doing the right thing. This will close off that avenue and enable you to faciliate the end of this contact. I will say a prayer for you, 19, you will do great!

I completely agree, Mel.

19 - why do you think contact is over?

WAT

I think contact may be over because I have no real evidence that it is not over - we do still see OM from time to time (church and kids school), but to my knowledge there has been no other contact. She also tells me there has been none.

On the other hand, I have a very bad feeling there has been and continues to be contact. And I do have some very weak evidence of that. And she has lied about it before.

So, that has led me to decide to tell OM's W and maybe my W's mother. I hope to do it today. It's a bad day schedule-wise, but I still hope to do it. It's driving me crazy.

I really think W thinks this is some little game she is playing. I am not going to play anymore.

Thanks.

I had similar feelings on E-day. Conquered them and went on to expose, and it was a big turning point. Please go ahead and expose today, you won't be sorry.

Stay strong mate. Do it and get it over with; you'll feel better.

The truth shall set you free, but first it will p*ss you off!

Thanks. I am going to do it - due to schedule, it will probably be Thursday, however.

My only concern is that if she really has had no contact, then this could come back to bite me. Of course, I do have a bad feeling that there has been contact and she told a friend on the phone "I have been behaving, but not behaving perfectly..." - that makes me think there is still some contact.

W also offered this morning to change churches - she has never offered or agreed to that before. Due to things I am involved in now, it would be hard for me to leave there now (and I've been going there 33 years). So, she may be bluffing, betting I won't leave. Plus, my ego kicks in and to ****** with OM, I'm not leaving. But I was pretty surprised she offered it.

W also told me this morning that she is so angry with me for how I have treated her for 15 years that she may not ever be able to get over it. She's told me that before. That is also why I am concerned. I believe her. Exposing could add to that.

But, in the end, I would rather be divorced than have her doing this behind my back. I told W that. That's why I am going to tell OM's W. To end it or be sure it's ended.

“It's a bad day schedule-wise...”

Mr. Numbers.

That’s just an excuse. There is no day a good day for exposing. Just like there is no affair a good affair for a marriage. Please call the OMW as soon as possible. I know it’s frightening but you will feel a lot better after the call.

Start there. What she says can help you determine whom else to expose to. The rule of thumb is the more the merrier but if WW is respecting NC and committing to the marriage then maybe exposing to OMW is enough.

Chances are you will get a partner in monitoring to assure NC is in place.

Good luck and be brave!

Her comments sound like fog talk. They most always say the same things.....

expose.

It is an excuse to a certain extent - I admit it. But, it's not as simple as it sounds. I really am not chickening out either -

I want to do it in person - not by phone. Mainly, so I can show her the evidence I have and let her listen to my taped call - which is the only real evidence I have. Otherwise, she may not believe me. She has to hear the calls.

I plan to drive to her office and then call her and immediately go in - so she can't talk to OM before.

I really can't do that today because of meetings etc. that I have and I need it to be early enough that she will still be there.

The other reason is that W and I saw MC this morning and had a long talk after. It seems to me it wouldn't be quite as crappy from that persepctive to do tomorrow as today.

Remember, if there really has been no contact, I think I am making a mistake in doing. I don't believe there has been no contact, so I am going to do it, I just want to do it in least offensive way possible just in case there has been no contact.

And I am hoping for a partner in monitoring in OM's W - that's another reason I am going to do it. Of course, she could kick him out too - especially if he's ever done this before....

Even IF there has been no recent contact OM's wife deserves to know.

WAT
------------------
Never rebuke criticism from a fool.

coacheswife - What comments do you mean when you say they sound like fog talk?

I really have been pretty much a jerk to her for 15 years. I never had an A, but I admit I did not treat her like she deserved. Of course, she never made that very clear until after dday - but I probably should have more cognizant of what I was doing. Now, that's not an excuse for what she did, but it's true to a large extent.

So, since I cannot argue with that (because it really is true to a large extent), I don't really think that is fog talk. Do you? or was there something else?

Remember too, FWIW, I do believe there is a distinct possibilty that there really has been essentially no contact since Feb 20. But I don't believe it. If there hasn't been, would there still be fog? She has undoubtedly seen him since then (as recently as Sunday) - but not spoken to him - I was there.

WAT - I agree she deserves to know - and I am going to tell her. My only reluctance has been and is it could actually make my situation worse. I have my kids to think about first and I have to do what is best for them - even if it's not what is best for OM's W.

That being said, while I dread it, I think it is the best thing for me to do (maybe only thing) so I am going to do it (although it will be Thursday).

Thank you (and everyone else) for keeping to tell me to do it - I know it has to be done.

Do you want to know what I think when I read this? That she most DEFINITELY is still in the affair. And let me explain why. A WS typically needs to demonize her spouse in order to rationalize the affair. She does this by rewriting history with the BS starring as the evil demon who drove her to the affair. Your is engaging in this very type of reality shifting.

And what will change her attitude? THE END OF THE AFFAIR. Once the affair is really ended and she sees that the path is CUT OFF, she will begin withdrawal. Once the OM is gone, reality will go back to normal and you will no longer be the demon.

I think that is exactly what is going on here, 19. And the greatest weapon you have against the affair is exposure. Exposing provides the greatest chance you have to kill this affair and save your marriage. Not the other way around.

ML - I actually hope that you are right - even thought that means A is on-going (not sure what I mean by that...)

But, what about the fact that I actually agree with it to a certain extent? I think it's largely true.

Is it possible, however, that I think it is so true mainly because I have heard it from her for 2 mos now?

I really was a jerk to a large extent - that is true.

Thanks.

P.S. I am not waffling much - I still plan to do it - Thursday.

P.P.S. - while I do admit it, she never told me this before the A

And this is exactly WHY you should expose. For the sake of your children. Your children will benefit from this when exposure kills this affair and makes it possible for your marriage to recover.

19,

Are you still being a jerk?

If you are, then stop.

If you are not, then she should be able to forgive you and move forward -- but not until her affair is over and she stops seeing the OM.

A lot of people here will tell you that WS's rewrite history and make the BS's the bad guy in order to justify their affairs. That may very well be true.

But I'm here to tell you that EVEN IF YOU REALLY HAVE BEEN A JERK, there's hope for your marriage -- but not until her affair is over and she stops seeing the OM.

I was pretty close to hating my H when I had my affair. Over the previous six or so years, he had turned into a seething ball of negative energy -- complained about everything, snapped at our baby girls constantly, jealous of everything everyone else had, drank too much, used porn compuslively, etc, etc. Frankly, he was a jerk with a capital "J". And if he were here right now, he'd be the first to admit it.

HOWEVER -- none of that is unforgivable. He has forgiven me for my affair. How on earth could I hold a grudge against him for his past issues??

If you have told your wife that you are sorry for the way you treated her... and have demonstrated real change... she will forgive you for it all -- but not until her affair is over and she stops seeing OM. (Did I say that part already? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Hang in there 19. You can do this.

--SC

19,

Your defense, even if your wife has been in "No Contact" is that it is the RIGHT THING TO DO. You keep telling us that it MAY be a mistake if she is in No Contact and I just don't agree with you. You will take flack for this exposure either way but it really MUST be done. You just stand firmly behind the fact that as the leader of your family you made the correct moral decision to allow OM's Wife to have the secret information which so seriously effects her life.

You point out further the following:

"If I accept what you and OM did and "protect" your secret even to the limited extent that I currently know about it, then I necessarily become your co-conspirator and I would be wrong. I had a moral obligation to tell OM's Wife the facts that effect her life and I believe, in the long run, that you wouldn't want a husband, nor would you respect again a husband as a man who knowingly does the wrong thing".

Mr. Wondering

Smartcookie - I really hope you are right.

I have done the best I can since dday (Feb 1) to stop being a jerk. Obviously, it's been hard since I am extremely mad at my W for what she did. I would say that I have done OK - not perfect, but OK - and a very big change. She has noticed. Says it makes her mad that I have to try and that why couldn't I have done it years ago.

What I have to do is act like I am not disappointed in her all the time, not give cold shoulder etc. That is what I have done too much of for 15 years. I hope she has re-written some - but I am not sure.

I would hope she could forgive me if I can forgive her.

One problem, she does not consider her EA to be that bad - so I am not forgiving her for that much in her mind.

Finally, her A may very well be over - I don't know either way. I suspect it's not, but I have no proof. If it is over, exposing may make my situation worse.

But, I am not sure I care. I can't live with her if I have to worry about it constantly, so I need to tell.

Thanks.

Hi 19. This probably isn't the time, but after you've exposed we should share stories. Before my FWW's A I was a bigger jerk than you could have been for 13 years. You may have more years but I claim the award for jerkiness. I changed completely; she noticed, and it's contributed to an upturn in our M. Recovery may not have been possible if I hadn't committed 100% to addressing my flaws.

First I had to conquer my fears and expose. You won't regret it. And whatever you do keep listening to Mel. And the others.

19, good luck with it all; it sounds as though your motives are in the right place

19 - re: being a jerk

Hence, Plan A.

The vast majority of affairs are just symptoms of marriage disease. "Being a jerk" is one of the myriad ways of getting the disease going, but the disease is rarely incubated by just one spouse. This is the whole point behind the MB notion of the love bank and meeting emotional needs.

I hope this is not new info for you.

But just in case it is, below is my canned rendition of Plan A. Take it for what it's worth:

The way I understand Plan A, it's based on two premises that must be accepted for “garden variety” affairs:

1. The BS (betrayed spouse) cannot end the affair.

2. The affair developed, to some extent great or small, due to a poor marital environment which the BS, also to some extent great or small, contributed to.

If a BS cannot accept these two statements as givens, they will not be able to implement Plan A.

With these facts established, there is only one constructive thing a BS can do to influence the course of an affair: change the affair-friendly marital environment by eliminating the BS contributions to it.

To this end, the BS must perform an introspective search for all the things they were doing or not doing that contributed to the WS's (wayward spouse) decision to have an affair - and then eliminate those negative contributions. These may include failure to meet emotional needs or disbursing too many love busters - but is usually some combination of both.

This DOES NOT mean that the BS "caused" the affair. This DOES NOT mean that the BS can or should try to change failings of the WS.

It simply means that the BS needs to change and improve the only thing they have control over - themselves - to eliminate love busters and begin meeting as many emotional needs of the WS as they can.

Central in this is stopping all disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and selfish demands. This is agonizingly difficult in the face of an affair. A BS has to counter the common knee jerk reactions of demanding the WS "straighten up" and delivering ultimatums and threats. Acting in this fashion simply reinforces the WS's rationalizations to conduct the affair in the first place - because the marriage "is over" or expendable and the spouse is unreasonable, therefore the affair is justifiable.

Invariably, this course leads BSs to feel like doormats and [censored] kissers. It also conjures up thoughts of enabling the affair by not resisting it. But the better logic to apply is that the BS isn't a doormat or enabling because they're doing the only things in their power to stop the affair - it's just counterintuitive to the initial reactions. This doesn't mean that boundaries shouldn't be set and protective measures shouldn't be taken.

Let me add that Plan A is all about the BS. You do not "Plan A" your WS. It is not intended to change ANYTHING but the BS.

Remember, despite outward appearances, the WS is very likely torn between the excitement of the OP vs leaving the BS and family. They invariably wonder, “Can I have both?” When they realize the answer is no, they next wonder, "how long can I stall before choosing?" It’s during this “stall” that demonstrating Plan A improvements is vital. Why make it easy for the WS to choose the OP by providing a less than competitive choice?

I'll end this by offering that there is one additional thing a BS can do to alter the course of the affair - but I call it "destructive" rather than "constructive" (to separate it from the one and only constructive thing, discussed above). It's to expose the affair to the light of day. But this deserves its own discussion.

OK, one more thing. The affair is very, very likely to end DESPITE what the BS does or does not do. Until it ends, there is NO chance for reconciliation. Ideally, Plan A improvements can encourage the WS to end the affair sooner because the spouse's "causes" of it are eliminated. But regardless, following Plan A prepares the BS for a successful reconciliation whenever and for whatever reason the affair ends by jump starting the process - their share of pre-existing marital problems are already confronted.

weneedhelp - I would like to compare stories sometime. Maybe you do have me beat in the jerk category. My W doesn't seem to think anyone could. I'd also be interested to know how you changed, since my M has no chance either if I don't change. I have changed some, I just need to keep it up and try to get even better.

WAT - I have definitely been trying to do Plan A - or at least close to it. In fact, the only time I am not able to stick to it is when we start talking about the EA. Sometimes I probably do some LB's when that happens.

While I have done OK, I have not been a doormat at all. Maybe I should have been more of one but I can only take so much crap.

My W has recognized the changes I have made - she's told me she has. That's one reason I am reluctant to expose. I think that will hurt me in that regard. Doing something nasty, behind her back etc. - OM's W is a friend of my W's - not a real good friend, but a friend and our kids are good friends. A bad situation all around.

Also, as far as I know, there has been no contact since Feb 20 - I have no proof of contact after that. I do have a bad feeling, however, and some very weak evidence. Enough that I really think I have no choice but to expose, but not enough that I am not worried - seems to me that if the EA is over, then exposure will make it worse for me.

But I need to do it anyway. I am not going to worry about this forever and I until I tell OM's W, I think I will worry.

Thanks.

Mr. Wondering - That is a very compelling statement. I agree with you.

W is of the opinion, however, that we don't really need to know everything our spouses do and sometimes we are better off not knowing. She thinks the EA was minor because it was just an EA and was over quickly.

Now, I don't agree with that at all - and I sure as ****** would have wanted someone to tell me. I only point this out because W's attitude is, obviously, going to affect how she reacts to this.

19,

I don't want to get you too far off track or distract you from the task at hand... but I do want you to hold onto the hope that the improvements you are making to yourself can go a long way toward healing your marraige -- regardless of the past.

You wrote:



I'm curious, how do you respond when she says this?

Also,


Doesn't matter. Or shouldn't. It's not a matter of "I'll forgive you if you forgive me." If I implied that in my post, I didn't mean to. I can see how it probably came across that way.

In my case, the series of events went like this: My affair ended. A couple of weeks later, I told my H that I didn't love him and thought I might want a D. Three weeks after that, I told him about my A.

When I first told him how unhappy I was in the marriage, he shocked me by immediately taking responsiblity for his neglect and starting to make changes. I was already well on my way toward forgiving him BEFORE D-day (ie before I even knew whether or not he would forgive me).

Your wife seems to be having a little more trouble in that department. Her response that 'you should have done it all sooner' seems to be common for WW's. But if you keep at it, I really believe she'll come around.




Why do we human beings distrust our insticts so? They are ussually right... if we just learn to listen to them and trust them.

--SC

That's her prerogative to choose ignorance in her own life, but she is not qualified to choose such a thing for her victims. She is the LAST PERSON who is qualified to decide what is in the best interest of the OMW to know or not know since she inflicted the damage.


She hopes by minimizing the affair, that it will minimize the consequences and minimize your focus so she can be free to carry on the affair.

19, no matter what her attitude towards this, a WS who is not showing remorse is not going to welcome getting busted and having all avenues of approach [to the OM] cut off. So don't worry about her attitude, it is expected it will be bad.

I agree that this is a common response and that if the BS can continue a strong Plan A for a sustained period of time the WS will have more difficulty remembering the "bad" times.


SC, this is very true and I'm much more trusting of my gut feeling now. It is there for a reason...all we need to do is listen to it.

QUOTE: I'm curious, how do you respond when she says this? /QUOTE

I say - I wish I had changed earlier too. I also wish that I understood what I was doing before the EA and then I think I would have changed. Unfortunately, it took the EA for me to see what I was doing. What I was doing had become a habit and pattern of interaction and I didn't really see what I was doing.

Of course, W had chances to tell me clearly and didn't. We were already in MC and I told MC "We don't have bad problems, just some underlying problems that could get bad if we don't work on them...." That was in October, 2005. W agreed with that. Now she says she knows she lied about that.

My point is only that if she had said something then (or even earlier) it might have gotten my attention. It was never made clear until the EA (Feb 1) - obviously, that makes me wonder what role OM and EA had in all this.


QUOTE: Why do we human beings distrust our insticts so? They are ussually right... if we just learn to listen to them and trust them. /QUOTE

I am going to trust my instincts here - I may live to regret it, but I think I would rather that happen than spend the rest of my life wondering what she is doing.

Also, W said today that if I couldn't get over A pretty quickly, she'd rather just get divorced. I think the quickest way for me to get over it is tell OM's W (maybe only way).

19,



Good. You can't change the past, you can only do better in the future. You might also consider adding some version of, "I really am sorry for all the times I hurt you." into the mix.

By the same token, she can't change the past either. So you might want to let go of...


and...


It might have gotten your attention, it might not have. There's no way to know for sure. I wish I had had a heart-to-heart with my H sooner, too. But I didn't. For a million different reasons. And there's nothing I can do about it now. The point is, holding this against her is not going to help your cause. Let it go...

Take care, 19.

--SC

19; Like you, I wasn't sure exposure was the right way to go. Also, my WW had told me point blank that she would D me if I exposed. So it took quite awhile for me to do it. Ultimately I thought we were going down the tubes anyway, so decided to expose - with lots of support from Mel and other terrific posters here. Better damned for action than for inaction.

Your situation doesn't seem quite as threatening re: the potential bad aftereffects immediately after exposure. I say do it. But only you can weigh the potential costs and benefits. Just don't underestimate the potential benefits, they are huge.

Even in our dire case, we've pulled through it. 1st month after exposure was really rough. She did see D attorneys as promised, but didn't file. Then I got resentful and saw D attorneys myself - but also didn't file. Then I started working on my own flaws. Recovery followed; now 3+months into it. Best wishes for you and your M.

weneedhelp - When you exposed, did you know WW still in contact with OM? That's my concern - I don't have real proof of real contact (actually talking) since Feb 20 - I have a gut feeling and some very weak evidence.

Not sure my M is down the tubes yet - unless there is still contact with OM. If there is, then that's the worst for my M. So I have to expose even at the risk of pissing her off if there no further contact. If there has been further contact, then she can't very well be pissed - can she? Or I won't care if she is.

Thanks/.

Smartcookie - Thanks. I don't hold it against her that she didn't make it clear earlier - I really don't. I really wish she had, but you're right, I might not have gotten it then either.

I do wonder whether the EA and the OM have anything to do with what she says now - since she has made her displeasure real clear since dday.

Thanks./

My FWW seemed pleased with the M, then after starting her A she really felt my flaws deeply.

<Edited>
Re exposure, Yes I knew my FWW was still in contact. So it's different than your situation. In your fuzzier situation I'm not completely clear whether exposing is best, but I tend to think it is. In my own case, I felt I was doing right by delaying exposure in hopes my FWW would stop the A by herself, avoiding the pain associated with exposure. Before that I dithered on finding out OM's identity. I'd say the dithering time extended a really painful time for me, and allowed the A to go further than it might have had I moved quicker, but it also gave me time to benefit from MB and mount a good Plan A.

Our case was a sort of infatuation by my FWW - rather than a love affair - and earlier exposure would likely have stopped the A sooner. All-in, I think I should have moved quicker.

I'd say your fear re exposing and mine are the same in this sense; both of us fearing that exposing would drive WW away. In my case that was a very very real risk, and yet in the end exposing did not drive her away.

I am sure about this though. Whether you expose or not - and ESPECIALLY if you expose - you really need to make it completely irrefutably clear that you love her, and are willing to fight for her and do what it takes. You will take some arrows, and lots of them will come from her. That's part of it. Doesn't matter; you need to make it clear beyond any doubt that you will go the extra mile for her.

If you do that your M will recover more quickly, whether you expose or not. Plus, that's what we are called to do for our wives. Even if they go off the path, we are still to love and care for them.

< personal aside; for me, 'going the extra mile' and 'fighting for her' meant an inward-directed fight against my own demons and flaws. Maybe for you as well? >

weneedhelp - what do you mean by "< personal aside; for me, 'going the extra mile' and 'fighting for her' meant an inward-directed fight against my own demons and flaws. Maybe for you as well? >"

I think my W's EA is more of an infatuation too - but I am not sure. I think she just likes the attention and the feeling she gets from OM being attracted to her - sort of funny considering he's married (so he is a sh!thead and she knows it) and he wouldn't be that great a catch.

You understand my dilemna over exposure. I don't think I really have much choice. What I really wish is that I knew for sure whether there was still contact - either way - just real knoweledge. That's one of the things that sucks so bad about all this - you are in the dark and they are sneaking around behind your back.

19, it really is not a dilemma at all. Let's say she is not currently in contact, you know for certain that she is thinking about him, which means she has not shut that door. IF contact is ended, it is only temporary. She is not in withdrawal and she is still talking to her friends about it.

Your exposure will SLAM that door shut and allow your marriage to recover. That is impossible as long as she is allowed to continue to see him.

So, be brave, 19. Do the right thing, get this over with so you can move onto the next step.

I would also point out that weneedhelp was ADAMANT that his wife would leave him if he exposed. We kept telling him she wouldn't. And, of course, she didn't. She was mad for a while, but it all blew over and he was able to move onto the business of recovery.

ML - Thanks. That's actually a great point regarding the fact that even if there has been NC, she is still thinking about it and the door needs to slammed. She always talks to her friends on her cell phone now - so I can't tape.

I am biding my time just a bit, but I am going to do it.

I actually re-listened to the most recent "friend" call this morning and I am a little more convinced there is contact. It went like this: "I've been trying to behave myself. I have not been behaving perfectly, but better". The person she told this too would not approve at all since she has been a BW herself. But they are very close.

One other thing that I actually thought of this morning: OM's W has been through this before. OM is her second or third H - not sure which. I know for a fact that her previous H cheated on her - he got someone pregnant and ulitimatly married the OW. I forgot about that until today - what effect do you think that will have on her reaction? Especially since this is "just" an EA as far as I know?

Mel was absolutely right. She was the prime mover for me to expose. It was the right move. Smart lady - listen to her.

I meant that my own personal fight was not with WW, or even with OM. I had a fight with the A, yes! But not with her.

Beyond that, my personal fight was against the little demons sitting on my shoulder telling me to hate her. And the other demons telling me to resent her, divorce her, to just give up and roll over, and all the other nasty little buggers. Even more, my fight was one to make myself a better person and a better husband.

I haven't completely won any of those fights. Yet. But I am winning all of them. And I have many allies - most of them here - and I know God is on my side in those battles. And he is also at my FWW's side helping her recover. I know you have his help, and I wish you the same success.

You have access to her cell phone records? If not, LMK. There are ways.

weneed-

I do have access to her cell phone records (actually in my name). That's how I found out this was going on.

Since then, she has never called him from her cell. Called him on the home phone once, and I caught that too (recorder on home phone).

I know she has used public phones to call him. Don't know that she has done it since Feb 20, but I suspect she has.

What I really need is a copy of OM's cell phone bill. I don't have any idea how to get that and it may even be illegal. That's the number she always calls him on, I just don't know how to get access. I know name, address and I think carrier too.

Any ideas?

One way that might work would require physical access to his cell phone. Not likely to be practical, and not sure re legal. You've tried voice-actived recorder in her car?

I have not tried that - I don't think she uses drive up pay phones - she has a store she goes in and uses the phone.

Probably not legal to get his phone.

Of course, his W could help me out I'm sure, I just wish I could figure it out before then.

It wouldn't be legal to obtain that; don't want to see you in legal trouble. I have a friend who is an attorney

19, please quit making yourself crazy and just do it. It matters not if she contacted him this week or last, she is not done with the affair and your marriage is not going to recover as long as that door stands wide open.

The OMW can watch from her end, which will make it much easier to ensure no contact. And you must know that the OM is NOT ABOUT to disrupt his marriage over your W [or he would have already] and will be motivated to truly end contact.

Please make a move and get this done. If you do it tomorrow, you will have the weekend to deal with the fallout.

No legal trouble if OM's W gives 19 the phone.

I have a Wookie who's a cop.

She could also be using a calling card to make those calls. You can prepurchase those. How about checking her purse the next time you have a chance to see if she has one in there? A little underhanded but do what you have to do.

I agree that you need to expose to OMW. Even if it you tell her you're unsure of contact at this point. She has a right to know what her husband has been up to.

ML - I am going to do it - although I am admittedly not wanting to. I was about to do it today - I really was - when I realized I will see her tonight (maybe OM too) at a school function for our kids. Kids have to go (not optional) so I decided I didn't want to tell OMW knowing that she has to go to that tonight - make the situation even worse. Plus, I was chicken.

Did you see my comment above that I just remembered this morning that OMW's previous H cheated on her too? and I mean really cheated, he got the OW pregnant and married her. What effect do you think that will have on her reaction to my news?

19, she will be upset. But she has experience with this and will likely be grateful that you told her so she can protect herself. How very sad for her. My last H and my current H had affairs so I know what she will be going through.

If you expose tomorrow, that will give you the weekend to do damage control. What do you think about tomorrow?

I do check her purse some (I know it's not nice, but like you said...) I never looked for a calling card - could she use that from her cell and have the number called not show up?

I have a recorder on the home phone, but I had technical difficulties and lost about 2 weeks of calls. And I stupidly trusted her for a couple of weeks and didn't use it at all. Anyway, it's covered now.

19, she could use that calling card from a pay phone, that is usually how they do that. I don't think she can use it from a cell phone, though.

ML - I don't know about tomorrow (bawk bawk - that's meant to be a chicken sound).

I am inclined to wait a few more days for a phone bill I'd like to see. If there is evidence on that bill, I will have no reluctance.

Plus, now (F)WW has some potential health problems - she made a Drs. appt. today (for an appt. next week) - I may need to wait until that is resolved - or something, do you think? If I knew there was contact, I wouldn't care about this part, but if there has been none .... it would seem to pile it on. Probably nothing, but it's one of those things that if it is something, it will be a big something.

I will do it, it's a matter of when.

The phone she was using before was a free public phone - no card needed.

I was able to contact OWH on my cell phone using the calling card. My cell phone bill showed the 800 number for the calling card.

19, just because there is nothing on the phone bill doesn't mean that she isn't using a cell you don't know about or calling from another phone using a calling card. They do it all the time.

I know you are afraid to expose, I most definately was. It was the scariest thing I have ever done. I had to be urged and prodded by others here.

it was the ONLY thing that worked. I understand, truely, how scared you are, but it IS your MOST effective tool.

Sick - Thanks. She has already used public phones - I know for a fact - she told me. So, she has the MO down, it's just a matter of whether she is actually doing it.

I will have to check for 800 nos. on the cell - W isn't the most technologically advanced person, however.

I am really only afraid to expose because I am not sure there has been any real contact since February 20 and we are sort of doing better. If I knew there had been contact since then, I really wouldn't care. Sort of don't care anyway since I am pretty sick of her right now.

Man 19....just do it. Ya have too and the sooner the better. At least now you are still questioning contact. If you wait and can't confirm contact you'll have to explain that you went to the ends of the earth to find contact, couldn't and then exposed.

No much better to say, you were guessing they still had contact to diffuse the angry WS. They all get angry but it has never been held up as grounds for divorce...never.

Mr. Wondering

19..do you want to live the rest of your life like this?...checking purses and recording phone calls because your gut is SCREAMING at you that contact hasn't ended?? I don't think you do...and you will just keep building the obsession even more if you don't do what you know you have to do and tell OM's wife what you know!

Mr. and this_hurts - I know you are both right. I saw OM and OMW last night at a kids school function (didn't talk to them, just saw them). I am sure my W saw OM too. Seeing the SOB drives me crazy.

Don't know if you read earlier, but OMW last H cheated on her too - got OW pregnant and married her.

Anyway, thanks for telling me what I know I need to do.

GET 'er DONE

19..what's up?

Why don't you tell the OM that you know that he is having an A with your W and if he doesn't tell his W (give a time frame)then you are going to. That way, she can here it from him (which is better) and if he doesn't then you will have no choice and it will be easier on your conscience. Just a thought..

beauty, the reason he can't do that is because the OM is not going to bust himself. If he is forced to tell her anything, he will spin the story and his W will never get the truth. It is better to come from a reliable source than a liar. This won't be hard his on conscience because it is the right thing to do; it would be hard on his conscience if he DIDN'T. It is still a HARD thing to do, though.

t/j oh beauty, I just read your post. My heart goes out to you! What a nightmare! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I haven't done it yet (embarrased to say) - schedule has been very bad at work - that's my excuse and partially true - but I am sort of reconsidering too -

I am still concerned about doing it when she keeps telling me there has been no contact since Feb 20. I just got the phone records I was waiting for and there is nothing there - which I guess is good.

I still feel like she is up to something and it is still driving me crazy. I am still tentatively planning to see OMW Monday morning.

I am sort of back to just not knowing what to do. On the other hand, I can't live like this. I love my kids more than anything and I can't stand the thought of not living with them all the time - that's what keeping me in this for now.

I give up.

I don't blame you - I probably would too if I were you.

You are right ML..I never thought of that. I guess he would try to make 193296 look like he is crazy. But at least it might have put a seed in her head and maybe she would want to talk to 193296 and he could provide her proof. Then 193296 might not feel so bad about exposing..

193296, if I were the OMW I would want to know. Please reconsider and tell her or somehow have her find out, if you do not feel comfortable doing it. The only way to end this party is to expose it..Otherwise you are going to go crazy. It's better to get it over with now, then drag it on..You say it may be over, but it won't be. WW and OM still have it secret and they can keep it going anytime they want. Good Luck

19..Are you still around? How are you doing?

this_hrts - Yes, I am still around.

I have not exposed yet - I am embarrased to admit it - but it's true. I am sort of paralyzed into inaction right now. Even after a couple of months, I just can't believe all this is happening.

I still just really don't know if exposing is the right thing to do in my situation. I guess I should have done it last week when I was ready. I know that just about everyone disagrees, but I think it might push her over the edge and want a D.

She is staying on the offensive pretty well. Reminds me how bad it's been for the past 15 years and she may never be able to get over it etc. I generally tell her I know that and I may not either. (I do think she's remembering it as much worse than it really was, but it was bad). She minimizes what she did and even had the nerve earlier this week to tell me I was "controlling" because I wouldn't let her go to small group meeting where OM will be and where this all started.

I am doing OK in general. Don't like my W most of the time now and I don't think she likes me either. I really could not care less except for my kids.

What about you this_hrts, how are you doing?

19,

When accused of being "controlling" it may be nice to flip the table around by indicating that a boundary is merely a term you utilize to describe those things that you will allow another person to do to you...her attempt to bend and alter your boundaries ARE in themselves HER attempt to "control" you. SHE is the one attempting to be "controlling".

She's a big girl and can go to those meetings despite your boundaries, in fact, you can't physically stop her from walking out that door right this second. However, you are and will always be in control of what is and is not acceptable to you.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Expose already

p.p.s. - Do it TODAY

Mr. W - Thanks. I actually did tell her something like that - actually because of stuff I learned on this site - ultimatums vs. boundaries - it may have even been from you, I don't recall. I did tell her it was a boundary and there are boundaries that simply come with M and that's one for her now. Next time I will use the "only let people do certain things to me..."

Anyway, don't think I take any crap from her in that regard either - or any regard. If I gave that impression, then it was wrong. While I am pretty unhappy in general right now with her, about her etc. - I don't mope around and when she says stupid things like that, I don't just agree and take it - I dish it right back out. I may be "moping" when I write on here and maybe even in my head, but not around her. I won't give her the pleasure of seeing that.

Thanks.

Glad you're still here 19, I know you are having a hard time deciding to expose, I do wish you would just do it. I'm afraid the longer you wait, the more your resentment towards your W is going to build. It sounds like she is still pretty foggy..rewriting history, blaming you for all her woes and not taking ownership of her EA.. I worry about her even suggesting attending that meeting too and happy to hear you didn't let her cross that boundary. Have you found anything else that makes you suspicious of continued contact?

I'm doing ok I suppose, it's gets a little better every day and H is doing all he can to help me feel safe..for the moment...

I still think about it all every day though and I long for the day when it's not the first thought in my head when I wake...it's a little depressing to remember that I was told it usually takes a year or more to get to that point though...seems like forever already.

Hang in there 19 and please don't give up on the idea of exposure, I would really hate to see you devastated by the discovery of continued contact (and I do hope she's being truthful about that with you)

Let me piggyback on something This said. Exposure is the strongest tool you have to bust this affair up. The thing is, you need to use it before your resentment and frustration build higher. It needs to be a tool you use in a calm, calculated manner. If you wait, it'll be a spiteful act to get back at the WW and it won't have nearly the same effect on the affair.

19,

Please expose as soon as you can. I didn't, I thought it was too late after the fact as I discovered MB 4 mo. after d-day. I was also afraid of what it would do for recovery. I can tell you what it does when you don't, it eats at you. WH's are so sneaky that you can't be sure it has ended. You need an ali (OMW) in stopping the A. You are not responsible for hurting OMW or causing problems in their marriage, you are just bringing them to light. I was also concerned about OW convincing her H that I was crazy, now I have more self-esteem. Even if the OM convinces his wife of this, it is outside of your control. The only thing you can do is try to help OMW make informed decisions. It shouldn't all be about you and what good or bad effect it may have on your M. I too was concerned with my WH's reaction, every time I bring it up (last time was Nov. 2005) he reacts poorly, thinks I am doing it for revenge. He also doesn't want the OW to call him and he is certain she would if I did this at this point. I sometimes think this is a not so veiled attempt to manipulate me to do what he wants. It also makes me wonder about any continued contact. The last month or so I have thought of a voice-activated recorder in his car. See what I mean? You are always left wondering about the NC. There isn't any gurantees that exposure would equal NC, but doing nothing definitely does not gurantee it.

Do it today, quite analzing this and don't allow yourself time to obsess about it, like the Nike commercial says, just do it!

Thanks.

this_hurts - I think about it a lot too - obsessively probably. I also long for the day before all this happened. I really hope it only takes a year - some things I read say longer than that. I am still in disbelief that it did happen - is that true for you too?

Maybe it is fog for her - sort of sounds like it. She actually does blame me for all her woes. I tell her that I admit I am part of it, maybe even a big part, but I am not all of it.

Mine is better sometimes too - but it takes almost nothing to get me back down. Are you like that too?

I have no further evidence of contact, but I just don't believe her. All I really have is the "not behaving perfectly" phone comment.

I have not given up on exposure at all.

Longhorn - I am sure you are right. I'm already at that point, however. I think I was at that point before I even considered exposure. I am still pretty calm and calculating - but that's my nature in general. But I am resentful. One reason I want to expose is I do think that would make her realize what a big deal it is - she's friends with OMW - not best friends, but friends. I actually think that would be funny to see. Probably make her change her tone when she tells her friends about it too - wouldn't be some little game anymore, but real life crap.

nabohio - I am exactly where you describe. Worried about what it will do to recovery. It's especially worrisome based on some of the things she has said about how unhappy she has been for the past 15 years. Of course, she either didn't tell me about this clearly enough or I didn't hear her until her EA. Makes me wonder a lot about the coincidence of that ....

And it is eating me up not believing there is NC. She doesn't even have to be that sneaky - she doesn't work and has literally all day to do whatever she wants (8:00 - 2:30). Other than not using the home phone and her cell, she can do whatever she wants and I'd never know. She has used public phones to call OM before.

Thanks.

19, do you realize the horrible cruelty in that behavior? Your W is the OMW's enemy but no one will tell her.There is nothing meaner than to befriend a woman while having an affair with her H.

You must put a stop to this cruelty, 19. How would you like it if your close male friend were getting it on with your W but no one had the decency to tell you?

She will blame you for not telling her so she could protect herself from your W.



And the odds are greatly increased that she sees him as long as you help them keep this a secret. You are keeping their secret at your own expense.

ML - Thanks. I thought you said you had given up????

I do realize the cruelty. In all honesty, I don't know whether you are right about anything else (no one really can know until it happens), but I do know you are right about that. I feel pretty guilty about not telling her. Some people say that people don't want to know, but I don't buy that at all.

Interestingly, I didn't even really consider telling OMW until I started spending time on this site a few weeks ago - so for the first 4 weeks or so after dday, I never really thought about it. I sort of feel guilty about that too.

I know the OMW too. Not as well as my W does, but I know her. She actually came to my house a few weeks ago to pick up her kid - this was before I ever thought about exposure. I could have easily told her then (W was gone). I wish I had.

19,

I too had anger issues and felt a lot of guilt. In my sitch, I began "seeing the light" in parellel to his A really heating up. The first change I made was to stop the behavior and do what is called "Plan A" here. I think that this is almost second nature to BS's to do automatically. My anger turned inward and I became depressed. I finally got enough nerve up to face my problems and went to counseling. It took a lot of work on my part, introspection and talk therapy to get at the root cause. Then you need to learn new behaviors and reactions, that is where I am currently. My WH said all the same things to me, it took my having an A for you to change, I don't believe that it will last, I can't trust you, you only behave differently to get me to stay, etc... Many times it is to deflect their own guilt and attention away from their actions, and to justify them. I too wish my WH would have talked to me about our M rather than discuss it with a third party. In an e-mail I read from her she said "I can't believe you are with her after saying all of those horrible things about her". Now, I am willing to take responsibility for wrong behavior, but pleaze, I in no way deserved to be spoken so disrespectfully about. I realized, after much hurt and pain, that WH said those things to justify what he wanted to do, have an A, and to make himself look like a sympathetic figure. I concluded that they were both pathetic and had low self-esteem and had to put me down to feel better about what they were doing. So, I advise that you don't allow your WW to twist your wrong behavior as justification. She also had the responsibility to tell you what affect your behavior had on her. She had the responsibility to work with you to make a better M. When the vows say for "better or worse" it doesn't say, when there is trouble, keep it in and resent the other person and start something with someone else!

nabohio - That is similar to me - I sort of saw the light when I realized what was going on and I changed quickly too. Not just because I wanted her to stay, but because I realized how I had been acting and what it had led too.

I don't deny what I did - I wasn't very nice at all and I can see how it left her open to do what she did - that's not a justification by the way - just an explanation. I see how it happens - and I see how it could happen to anyone. He made her feel like I didn't.

I am not sure what they said about me - but I am sure there were some not nice things. I heard some stuff on a call, but it wasn't any big deal. I sort of care and I sort of don't. Maybe a guy thing. It actually bugs me more when she talks bad about me to her friends - I like them, I don't like OM.

My W actually had several golden opportunities to tell me the gravity of her feelings before the EA - we were in MC before and she never said it clearly enough.

My W also worries that my actions/changes are not permanent - I think she is wrong, but who knows?

I am also going to IC right now - been twice. Not real helpful so far, but not long enough to tell. I am glad to hear that it has helped you.

While maybe I am just trying to protect myself, but I really don't like W anymore. If I didn't have young kids, I'd probably just bag it. May be a little overkill to kill a 18 year M for a 3 week EA, but it really affects how I feel about her and I am not sure that will ever change - do you feel like that sometimes?

Naw, I still love ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am just hanging back watching, because I believe you will do the right thing. It may take another rendevous between your W and the OM, though. That is usually what happens and then the BS is quickly propelled into action. I expect that to happen here.

ML - Thanks. I didn't really doubt you still loved me, I just assumed that you were very frustrated (and I don't blame you - I would be frustrated too if I were you).

You are right that any further contact would quickly propel me to do it. In a sick way I sort of wish that would happen (just a phone call, of course) since then I would have justification ..... of course, I am looking like ****** for evidence of that and can't find it.....

I plan to do it anyway - believe it or not. Otherwise, it is going to drive me crazy. But I have said that before ...

19, that is usually what happens with you stubborn ones! You drag your feet and then you discover continued contact. Suddenly the house is on fire and exposure is done in warp speed, BY GOD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

19,

I feel like that a lot, although less lately. In my case I felt soo bad for such a long time for my one contribution to the demise of the M, and I put so much effort into it that when he said he was finally willing to try, I just took a step back, waited and watched. Waiting for him to take that mistep as I couldn't believe him entirely. I still kinda feel that way, if I ever knew he had contact and he wasn't the one telling me about it, I would be so far out of here! In our case my WH doesn't do much to recover our marriage, never wants to talk, doesn't read, so there is a lot that says to me you need to walk the walk, not talk the talk.

ML - I would tell you I was going to do it tomorrow, but I have cried wolf too many times and I am embarrased.

It does make me feel a little better to know I am not the only one who is stubborn in this regard.

You're not just saying that to be nice, are you?

nabohio - You are a lot further from dday than I am - I am only about 2.5 mos out and there was contact 3 weeks after that for sure. That is probably why you feel less like that lately. I am glad to hear that and I hope it's true for me one day.

Like your H, my W doesn't do that much either. She has definitely done some, however. We do go to MC and we actually went to a 3 day MC program about a month ago. That was my idea, but she went and made arrangements for kids etc - which is an ordeal. So she was trying.

Other than MC, she hasn't done much since then in the way of reading books, talking etc. She'll talk if I want to, but it almost always leads to this statement: "You don't understand how I feel based on what you have done to me for the past 15 years ..." She then will say that what she did was nothing compared to what I did (since it was just an EA). She thinks an EA is pretty much nothing.

Just so you'll know, "what I have done" is act contemptous toward her in a quiet way - no yelling, screaming etc., just acting quiet and disappointed in her for a long time. I think I did act that way - although unknowingly to a certain extent. I think it started over dissatisfaction with SF with her (not enough).

So, I have been trying extremely hard not to act that way - even though now I actually feel that way. I didn't really before, it became a habit. Now I do, and I can't act like it - sort of ironic, isn't it?

I can think of 2 other guys who dragged their feet. They BOTH EXPOSED eventually and they BOTH said they wish they had done it earlier. ALMOST EVERYONE who delays says they wish they had done it earlier, because TRUE recovery never begins until it is done.

The 2 that I am thinking of right now are weneedhelp [he already posted to you] and Shaden. They are both glad they exposed, just wish it had been sooner.

Hi. I was reading over your post and wondering if you told OMW. It took me 2 months to expose the A to OWH. SO, I understand your reluctance. I was in so much turmoil. However what kicked it over for me was that I realized that my H was going to be going back to work directly with OW. So I felt that I needed to bust the situation up. I exposed to her H and both of their boss. They claimed it was only EA also. But I have doubt about it.

However when I did reveal there were mistakes that I made.
I hadn't expressed to my H after things settled down and he wasn't angry (b/c WS become very angry) what I would like for him to make a decision about regarding recommittal to our M, no NC, and transparency. So it has been a month later and I'm now just having these talks with him.

Anyway, I realized also that OWH deserved the chance to realize what was going on in his M and protect his well-being as we do not know for sure if there wasn't a PA,(he may have wanted to have STD testing) and also he deserved to know that his M was in trouble.

Anyhow, I felt so much better afterwards, my conscious clear. I do hear your concern for OMW, being that she has already gone through something like this. This was my H's second A. The first OW her H got a dv. So I had some reserve about that, what if the same thing happened with these two. Then I realized that this wasn't my issue to be concerned with b/c it was there choice to make. However, I felt that it wasn't me that caused the dv, but the affair that caused it and the problems existing in the M.

With this exposure the OW, had the nerve to try to lay guilt on me that I was causing her M to end and she didn't care if she stayed M or not b/c my telling her H might end her M. I thought she was comical. She was totally unwilling to recognize her own responsibility to the A. My H was very much similar to her also. But anyway. I still felt better after getting the info out there.

The OWH and her are still together. Her H has become a bit of an ally to me. It worked out fine.

19, I relate so much in all you going thru. And I am also 2.5 months after d-day.

I wish I could expose, but I can't or it is pointless now.

His last affair, there's no one to expose. She's from another country and have just been here for a few days.

But for the second A, that after 2 ONS was followed by a 8 months EA, I couldn't have exposed because I didn't really knew it was going on.

But it was in some way exposed, even if I was dumb enough to still believe my H.
The reason it was only a twice PA, was because someone send msn's to a LOT of people, friends, work,etc. So they stop it. They continued with the EA, mail, msn, occasional social and business meetings, etc, until those msn's started to come again, and after this I pressured my H, he denied but end it.

But what hit my H really hard recently was the fact that he finally realized he (we) lost a lot of friends due to what has been said and that was true. (we are expats living in Asia, really small community)

So now when he says Mr x or Ms y or Dr. a or b don't talk to me, are acting different... and I answer, They been acting like that with me since back then... the messages... people know, people saw you...

Now he REALLY feels ashamed for what he did. Now he realizes how wrong and childish he was.

Until I had the final A "real" proof, (a friend saw him in a 5 star hotel 3 am with a woman) he never though I would find out. He never though anyone would know, so he thought what he was doing was not that wrong. He believed that as long as he denied and that no one had a hard proof it was nothing)
Hope you get what I am trying to say.


Well, a lot going on with me now, will post later, I don't even know how to write about it. But it just feels like d-day all over again.

Anyway, I guess I am running out of time for a big decision. I can go for D or I will definetely need to find a way to keep these hate feelings away.

Wish you all the best

ML - I am sure I will wish it had been sooner one day.

LLG - So when you exposed after 2 months, did you know whether there was still contact? My W promises up and down that there has been NC since Feb 21 except one time she saw him in carpool line and talked to him and a couple of times she saw him at church and did not talk to him (I was there so she is telling the truth).

Problem is, I don't believe her. I have overheard some phone calls between her and friends that lead me to believe she is still up to something. But, it's not conclusive evidence at all - it's barely even evidence. So, I have sort been chickening out and waiting for better evidence.

My fear is that I will hurt recovery that has taken place so far if I tell OMW and if there really has not been contact since Feb 21. W is mad at me for how I have treated her over past 15 years and this might push her over edge (and I admit I am guilty of what she says to a certain extent).

What do you mean about the things you had not expressed to him? Do you mean you had not told him there could be NC?

I absolutely think the OMW deserves to know, by the way, and I do feel bad for not having already told her.

lost_willow - Sorry to hear that you are having renewed problems and I am sorry that more things have happened.

As I have said before, I think you and I are the in the same place in many respects in how we feel. I don't think our H and W will ever know that what they did has changed the way we feel about them forever. I honestly don't think that will ever change back to the way it was.

Maybe it can be better than it was - I don't know, but I am not real optimistic either.

One reason that I do want to expose is something you mentioned. I think that would make W realize what she did - that it's not some little game she played (is playing?). I have heard her tell one freind about it and they were laughing etc. I imagine the other friends she has told have pretty much gone the same.

She tells them she is having M problems (which we are and were before EA) and that she complicated it by getting "too close" to OM. Then she tells them all about how great it made her feel etc. Exposure to OMW would certainly put a damper on all that. Maybe not a good reason to do it, but who cares.

Of course, I am rambling on when I should be actually doing it.

Post back and let us know what is going on with you. I don't pretend to have much good advice, but it helps me just to write and I bet it does you too.

P.S. I am jealous that you are expats in Asia. I have always wanted to do that in Asia or Europe and I was never able to pull it off. Kids are too old now, so if I ever do it I'll have to wait awhile....

No, I didn't know. I had pretty much busted up their primary means of contact by finding his email info. And he was with me most of the time. However there was an occasion where I caught him sneaking to talk to her. He didn't know that I knew until I confronted him. He was off his job for a short while (which is where she works also), and their constant work conversation was ceased for that time until he went back to work.


Definitely heed those signals if your intuition gives you to suspect or if wife conversation sounds like it, it is very possible that she is still making contact. My H was very sneaky. And he found ways in first A to contact OW.


See, what I think happens sometimes is that the BS in an effort to try to make such a good impression and make it work assumes that WS has the same goal. When in actuality if WS is intent to stay in the A, what you do will not have bearing on them. B/c they may not be decided if they want to leave the M or stay they may try to work on recovery or may make only small recovery efforts to try to prevent detection of the A.

IMHO, BSs are often preoccupied with how they are trying to not hurt recovery that they may miss when WSs aren't coming along with them in the recovery.

If you W is intent to continue in what she has been doing and is in the "fog", what you are doing will not mean anything to her until she is willing to come, to make the decision to come out. So what happens is what I believe amounts to a false recovery on the behalf of the WS. The steps to recovery are for WS to stop the A and commit to honesty, maintain, NC, and so on.

So she has her part to play and you have yours. Nonethelsee, this is aside from the issue to expose. Exposure, is in my thoughts about also helping the party that is unaware by informing them so that they are aware of the betrayal. Another beneift is that you both may be able to help each other keep them apart.

Just one more thing 193. If you decide to do this, make sure you have replies ready for WS when she comes. A poster named Orchid has these wonderful reverse babbles that help the BS put responsibility where it belongs without showing disrespect to WS. They are usually short and to the point but powerful in saying what needs to be said without long speeches. So you may want to review her thread. Also, you may want tot alk to WS about what you would like to happen if you find out that NC wasn't committed to.

Also I found out that if you get a chance to talk to OM, ask him about what went on. Many times if you keep a cool head the OP will tell you details about the A, that is, if you are interested. May also find out if there is still contact.

To Orchid's Reverse Babble, click her link below in this post.

Wish the best. Hope it all works out.

LLG - Like you, I have destroyed their primary means of contact - her cell phone and our home phone. Since then, however, I know for a fact she has used public phones to call him. I know because she told me when I caught her on the home phone around Feb 21. So, I know she has been sneaky before and used other means. She is also free everyday from 8 - 2:30 to do whatever she wants. We know what they say about idle hands, don't we????

What I don't know is if it has happened since Feb 21. All I have is a call where W said this to a friend: "I've been trying to behave myself. I have not been behaving perfectly, but better". That was around April 7. That's pretty much all I have at this point. That, and intuition and suspicion.

I also heard her talk to a friend about him 3 weeks or so before that. Didn't really say anything, but it lead me to believe that she is at least thinking about him and she has at least thought about calling him. I could handle the thoughts except that she has told me she's not even thinking about him anymore. Said she now thinks of him as a friend who died (i.e. a friend she can't ever talk to again).

As far as the "good impression" stuff you mention, I think she is coming along with me - but I guess I don't know for sure. She likes to remind me how badly I acted for 15 years and that she may not be able to get over it .... on the other hand, we go to MC and we went to a 3 day MC seminar a few weeks ago. So, I think she is trying.

I have been acting badly for 15 years (not now, but I was). She does have to deal with that.

Of course, she could also be contacting OM. She thinks there is nothing wrong with talking on the phone. She says she won't do it, but I really think she believes there is nothing wrong with it. Doesn't think it really was an EA anyway.

So, I know I need to tell OMW and do it ASAP. If no other reason then just so she will know who she is dealing with. I am just worried about the ramifications of doing so.

19, I've read and reread all your posts and I'm no closer now to figuring out your trepidation than I was when I started. You're wandering around, trying on this excuse and then that one while looking for something that will fit and explain your fear of talking to a woman who desperately needs to know her marriage is in as deep trouble as yours.

Come on, man. The ramifications of NOT exposing are that you continue to go on living your life in a gray, featureless limbo and the OM's wife can't even deal with her misery. Darn it. Just DO it.

Longhorn - Thanks. You are right and you pretty much summed it all up in a very succint post.

I know I need to get over it and just do it, I am just having a hard time worrying that it could make my situation even worse if there is no contact and hasn't been in almost 2 months (and I know that is selfish when it comes to OMW and I don't like that either - especially since I know her).

Thanks.

I agree. With her knowing she may have the same chance as you to try to work on her M if she so chooses.


Are you waiting for evidence of contact before you say something?

It sounds like you have concerns that pertain to you only exposing if WW isn't telling the truth about NC. I'm thinking because otherwise it might be seen as being vengeful. Is that your thought? What caused you to want to expose if you believed there was no contact since there has been some time to go by since 2.21?

Everyone really has their own reasons for exposing. Many do not like to admit this. I had to sort through mine as well. However I felt if nothing else the OW's H would know and he and I have actually become allies. One thing that I definitely wanted my H to understand and that I feel for myself as my personal belief is that I didn't contact OWH to get back at him. I did however b/c I wanted to make sure the R was over for the sake of his M and mine. And that I was doing all I cold to prevent it from getting restarted.


I hear ya. The good part is that now you are trying to change. It sounds like you've gotten off to a good start. However there are still unfortunately decisions that you have ot face and consequences. I wonder if you feel that this would make you appear to be a jerk again if you expose.

IMHO, it makes you a man trying to do the right thing, nothing more, nothing less. WW might see it differently. This is where you might express your true intent. And allow her to take ownership for whatever she thinks. She might get it wrong, as far as what your intent is, but if you expose and she allows perhaps you can explain better your motive, your intent.

I'm wondering this also. How do you feel about your wife's transparency? It sounds like from the post above that in some things she isn't transparent. For instance, her thoughts about OW and her feeling it is ok to talke to OM as a frieend.

If you felt she was showing remorse and transparency to a high point then you might approach her about revealing the A to OMW as a point of showing consideration to a friend or acquaintence. I have seen in some incidences on MB where this has occured and the WS took responsibility for their actions in revealing it to the unbeknowst BS. Especially since it sounds that she is an acquaintance to OMW. If you think she wouldn't do this, it may be an indicator that the A needs exposing to OMW.

Just my thoughts.

You are right, I have been sort of waiting for evidence of contact before I tell OMW. You are also right in that I am worried it could be seen as vengeful.

While I would get some personal satisfaction out of the vengeful nature of it (I admit) I really want to do it for 2 reasons: (a) to be sure the EA is over - I need an ally in the OMW to see if it's still going on; and (b) to show my W what a big deal it really was (is?) - when she knows that someone hates her for this, she'll realize what she did. So, my motivation is to save my M - plain and simple. I would get some twisted pleasure out of it too, but that's not the real motivation.

She is more than an acquaintance with OMW. They are friends - not best friends, but more than acquaintances. Also, our kids are good friends.

I don't think she is very transparent. She doesn't agree with the "total honesty" idea. I don't really think she is very remorseful either.

Part of her lack of remorse is based on the fact that it was an EA that lasted about 3 weeks (she had been good friends with OM for about 2 years). She considers that to be pretty much nothing. Also, her anger towards me factors into her lack of remorse.

There is no way on earth she would tell OMW. Every once in awhile she will say she should be able to call OM as friends or go to meetings she used to go to where all this started. My standard response is: "OK, let's tell OMW all that happened and if she agress, it's OK with me". Her response is that it doesn't have anything to do with OMW. She'll never tell her.

I have been trying very hard to change. It's been hard only because of the EA. It's unfortunate she couldn't figure out another way to get my attention. That part is my fault and I do have to face the consequences for it.

Can I tell you something? This is something I learned from other boards I belong to....The affairees nearly 99% of the time say what your wife says above.

Do you understand what that means? Not only does your wife NOT REALLY CARE about what OMW thinks about this....she cares so little that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER.

Now I ask you, this OM - do YOU consider that HIS and your WW's actions might have a little something to do with you???? I mean, c'mon....you're here trying to save your marriage...SO YEP! NO MATTER WHAT LIES THEY'VE TOLD THEMSELVES, NO MATTER WHAT THEY THOUGHT....THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH OMW AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU.



So she's minimizing her actions because of a mere drop in time (3 weeks). I don't care if it was 3 hours or 3 minutes....those minute droplets have developed into a tsunami bearing down on your lives.

Furthermore, it's going to bear down on a person who is unaware that she needs to shore up her defenses. You realize YOUR integrity is in question here, also? It's gonna hurt her a lot more if no one tells her and she finds out a lot of people know or suspect.

I'd have given my left big toe for someone to have told me.....

Let's establish one undisputable fact: Despite your real motives and despite all caution you take to the contrary, exposure will be seen as vengeful by the WS.

Period.

OK?

You cannot avoid this. No BS can. It's as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow.

In this regard the only thing a BS can do is expect your WS to see exposure as vengeful and be prepared with your mantra when the vile spew is launced in your direction: "I'm doing everything I can to try to save my family."

WAT

Dealan-de - W doesn't minimize it because of the duration - rather because it was EA and not PA (and I am as sure as I can be under the circumstances that it was not a PA).

I agree with you that her statements are ridiculous. Obviously it involves OMW.

I know the answer to this question I am about to ask you, but I will ask it anyway: would you have wanted to be told if the A was a 3 week EA and there had been NC in almost 2 months?

WAT - I agree with you and that would be the truth. Thanks.

Yes says the woman with 2 OC.

And coming from a woman - EAs are just as hurtful imo.

Affairs of any kind hoover big time.

Like I said, I knew the answer. I'd want the same and even to me, a man, EA's are just as bad. Just the first step to a PA, I think.

What's an OC?

Other child.

Wow it is amazing how we are all going through the same thing. I am in the exact situation, I am worried about exposure too. Have you told anyone? I hae and for me it brought much guilt, but i did't tell H who I told. H says i am telling everyone for pity. I hate how they make you feel guilty.

I agree with your idea of pushing them over the edge to D. Sometimes i feel that is the only reason he is holding on. If no one knows than he can hide from his actions. If everyone finds out then he may decide to go (why not he doesn't have to hide anymore). I feel emotional detached most of the time too! this scares me. Let's hope some others can post some answers to help us out. Seems funny we posted that same thought 2 minutes apart.

GOOD LUCK!

cfc - it is amazing that there are so many people in very similar situations.

In my case, I have told 2 friends (guys) and an IC that I have now. W has told 6 friends (women) and together we have told MC and church rector (her EA resulted from a church activity so we had to tell him so she could get out of it - which I made her do). I didn't really want her to tell all those friends, but I didn't ask her not to. Seems 2 or 3 would have been enough. Unless she is holding out, we both know who we have told.

In my case, I am only worried that exposing to OMW would push her over the edge because she appears to already be so angry with me due to my behavior over the past 15 years (which I admit is largely true) and the fact that she considers her EA to be no big deal - since it was not a PA. Also, we get along OK right now and have been to a lot of MC - so, I think she is trying. I know I am.

I worry exposure to OMW could disrupt all that - especially since I have no evidence there is still contact.

On the other hand, I am very suspicious that there has been contact and I do feel some obligation to tell OMW - I know her.

Of course, I have been saying all that for a pretty long time now and I have not done it.

I am emotionally detached at times too - most of the time even. If I didn't have 3 kids, I might punt.

In your case, is there no NC?

Did you see the plan A letter on Good Father's thread? I think expose and then WHAMO give her a letter like that.

She might hang onto the "vindictive" line for awhile....but she can't refute that your intentions weren't in the right place after a love letter like that one (well, she could and probably will, but it won't smack a bit of logic).

19 - please read Good Father's thread. The relevant part starts around page 37 or so.

This is an example of what happens when you lose the initiative in this kind of fight. This is where you could be headed if you don't expose NOW.

19-

She may be going to MC with you...things may have calmed down some around you...but trust someone who's been there, all of this simply adds up to misdirection.

You will hear it from almost everyone...MC is useless if she's still in contact, or still in the affair. The most likely scenario at this point is that she's 'trying' by going to MC and by calming things down...for two reasons. One is to ease the attention on her affair...so that it can continue unabated. She knows you suspect...so of course she's going to do everything she can to remove your suspiscion...NOT to end the affair. And...if/when she DOES decide to leave, she can look at everyone in the eye and say "But see, I TRIED! I went to MC, I TRIED to be a good little girle, but it didn't work out!".

Unless you take active steps to end contact and the affair, you're not going to be moving any closer to recovery, IMHVO. Exposure is intended to end the affair..and to prevent a recurrence. You need to expose to OMW IMMEDIATELY, with these two goals in mind. You still suspect contact...IMHO, grounds enough for exposure. If nothing else, you can tell your wife that you thought about the whole thing and could not in good conscience NOT tell his wife about what went on...that SHE needed to know just as much as you did. So SHE could decide what needs to happen in her marriage based on all of this.

QUIT STALLING...QUIT FINDING EXCUSES...QUIT PUTTING IT OFF...AND MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Personally, I can't see any possible use of anyone posting on this thread until that happens...because if you don't do SOMETHING, then NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

It's all up to you...

Believe it or not (and I am sure most of you don't - ML???) - I am going to see OMW right now -

not sure I will be able to actually see her, but I know she is there and I am going -

I'll report back in a couple of hours -

Please give me some positive thoughts and support .....

Flare prayer sent up!

- Kimmy

Awesome....

Prayers to you and your family right now.

Mr. W

Thanks. I did it. Took 4 hours, but I am back now and headed to meeting.

Don't know if it was right thing to do or not, but right now I feel much better - pumped actually. I feel like I just took control of the situation. That's not true of course, and that may cost me my marriage, but it's a good feeling while it lasts. Wish I had a beer or 10.

We looked at cell records (in OWM's name) and there has only been 1 call I didn't know about. It was on March 2.

Of course, she has lied to me repeatedly when asked if any calls since Feb 20.

W doesn't know and will not until OMW talks to OM which will be later in the week or even weekend since he's out of town.

I'll be back later.

P.S. ML - You can't accuse me of being a wimpy guy anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

P.P.S. - If anyone cares, the final straw was when W hugged OMW at church yesterday - on Easter..... I couldn't take that.

So what did OMW know?

What was her reaction? What did she indicate she would do with your information?

Did you make plans to stay in touch with her?

WAT

Well, I am glad to eat crow on this one! Congratulations, you are no longer a SERF, but a KNIGHT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Great job!

Did you and the OMW discuss changing churches? You do see that this won't work, right?

Just batten down the hatches and prepare for all ****** to break loose. When she lights into you, simply say: "I am sorry you are upset, but I will do what it takes to save our marriage. The OMW had every right to know."

Don't let her bait you into a fight and DON'T let her scare you with threats. They all make threats, but it will blow over.

GOOD JOB, MY FRIEND!

She knew nothing. She knew they were good friends (as did I) - she actually probably knew a little more about that than I did since she had a better idea of what they talked about etc.

Her reaction was shock, I guess, but she controlled herself very well. I told her what I knew, we listened to tapes, checked some records and then discussed it all. She didn't break down or anything, but she was not happy about it. So, overall, I think she took it very well. She's a very nice lady and it is the second time this has happened to her (other was previous husband years ago).

She is going to do some more snooping and then discuss with OM later in the week or this weekend. One of them will be out of town until then,

We are staying in touch. We'll talk later this week and then she is going to tell me ASAP when she discusses with OM - I guess I'll tell W then - haven't decided.

Don't quite know how to deal with the fact that is does appear there has been NC since 3/2/06 - at least none that I can detect.

ML - We discussed church some - she recognized the awkwardness of it - we didn't get to details. I do think she was genuinely surprised. She took it very well, but obviously, she didn't like it. I am sure we'll discuss that later and I hoping they will leave - I have been going there much longer than anyone involved ....

I am trying not to worry about threats W will make etc. - I am little since it does appear there was no contact since 3/2 - but I have 2 new lies (at least) - she said there was NC since Feb 20 (that's lie 1) and she said she didn't call him on 2/14 (v-day) - she did (that's lie 2). So, she can take her threats and ....... at least I have 2 lies to call her on.

She did have the right to know and said she wanted to know. Said she was not mad at my delay in telling her. Hope she meant it.

Back later.

Thanks.

P.S. no crow to eat - thanks

That is good. But there is nothing to deal with there. Except, of course, changing churches! Don't be so sure that contact has ended since 3-2, they may have found another way. Even so, the OMW still had to be told. Just don't let your guard down.

19, you did the RIGHT THING in telling the OMW regardless of current contact. She still had to know. You don't have a thing to feel guilty about.

But when this explodes, I would draw a boundary on something VERY IMPORTANT. And that is TRUE NO CONTACT. She can never see him again and that means they don't go to the same church and that means your children don't play with his. In order for her to withdraw and for you to recover any trust, ALL CONTACT must end between your families. It is sad that your children have to pay this price, but that is the consequence of an affair. Unfortunately, the WHOLE FAMILY has to pay the price.

Good job...19

Just wanted to add...when you do have the confrontation over what you've done, ask her only once if she'd like to share some more truths with you. If she continues denying the truth then state the facts (the lies) matter of factly like you did above. If you are fortunate and she opens up you may be able to get the truth and then some. Take a one time shot at getting ALL the truth. It could be productive if she spills everything, just unlikely now.

It is very tempting to overly question her and MAKE her continue her lies. The temptation being that you HOPE she will tell you the truth and somehow that will make you feel better. Again, it is highly unlikely. She may, seeing as you have new information; however, they usually stick to their lies and withhold the truth for fear of divulging more than you really know. It is brutal to make them squirm and you should be careful as a BS from taking pleasure in inflicting pain. Don't. Just state what you know. It is enough. Full honesty usually comes later in recovery.

Again, you were courageous today. Way to man-up.

Mr. Wondering

Forgot to add:

Your wife may push you to share every single detail of your conversation with OM's wife. I don't think you need to share this and you can just summarize it. Hopefully, OM's wife will follow through with maintaining your snooping techniques but be ready to be busted on them. Have back up copies of your recordings to insure WW doesn't go on a search and destroy mission.

I'm not certain so perhaps others can chime in:

Should 19 give a blow by blow of his conversation with OM's wife, conveniently leaving out some of it but giving the impression he's told her everything so that her anger won't be focused on demanding to know it all. WS's love to throw the hyprocrital logic back at the BS when they view the BS withholding secrets. It only adds to their rationalizations and justifications. Don't lie, just don't recall everything for her.

OR

Should 19 just tell WW it's not her business, give a small summary and tell her currently he can not and will not divulge any more of the conversation.

I personally lean towards the later; because it's better than inevitably being caught up in misrepresentaions and contradictions when the OM's wife tells a differing story to her husband (OM) which gets relayed to WW. Though that would confirm contact (almost like a sneaky test).

Mr. Wondering

ML - His kid is actually his step-kid - the kid is OMW's kid. They have been friends since they were 4 and go to the same school. I am not sure how to deal with that one?

And don't get me wrong - I don't feel guilty at all - none. She made her bed and she can lie in it. That being said, I am concerned - not scared or any BS like that, but concerned about what her reaction will be. I don't really want to end up divorced (I don't think).

One way or another I want to put this behind me - I realize this could take years to resolve/work out and I am not sure I am willing to spend the time. If I didn't have kids, I wouldn't.

I actually heard the phone call again today for the first time since dday (listening with OMW). My feelings toward W right now are nothing but bad - I don't care if she does explode - it's her problem.

Maybe this is twisted, but I am looking forward to telling her. Then, when she talks to her friends about it it won't be a little game anymore - now someone (OMW) hates her for what she did - that will put some water on her little fire - she's a very guilty person anyway - or she used to be.

I finally did something proactive - not just threatending, not just reacting, not just snooping - I may regret it one day, but I don't right now.

I know some of this may not be the best reasoning for finally doing it, but I can't help it right now.

ML - And I am not 100% sure there has been NC since 3/2 - it just does not look like it at this point - I really can't believe that is true, actually - but who knows -

My guard is up and I do think she needed to know. As mentioned earlier, I wanted to vomit when my W hugged her yesterday (Easter) - at least she could avoid her, don't you think?

Stand tall. You did the right thing.

Mr. - You know, W already knows everything I told OMW. There is really not that much to tell.

Only 2 exceptions to that actually: (a) I showed OMW the list W made of pros/cons to leaving me - since OM and OMW were on the list - as a con since he's married. W doesn't know I have this. I am sure she forgot she did it. (b) OMW knows I can read W's email - W doesn't know that.

So, W knows all of my snooping tactics - and OMW really doesn't know anything W doesn't except those 2 things.

I like your advice about giving her one chance to come clean and I will try it. W is a very smart woman, however, and I don't think she will fall for it - but I will try - great idea.

After that, I'll probably just tell W what I talked to OMW about - by the time I tell her, I won't remember the details anyway.

Also, I am hoping OMW can get different facts from OM when she confronts - so we can know what the real story is especially as far as physical contact on the night of the retreat - where this all started. Somehow, I don't believe it was really just a kiss on the cheek - don't think it was SF, but I can't believe they didn't at least make out.

Thanks.

Bit - Thanks. I feel great right now. Probably won't later, but I do now. Thanks.

Another detail - the last time I knew there was contact and confronted W she actually voluntarily confessed to other contact that I had no way of knowing about - calls from public phones.

When I heard that call again today, I realized that I could have easily told from that call that there had been other calls -

the point is, that is why W confessed about that - she was worried about that - that I could tell there had been other calls. I was so mad when I heard the call the first time that I missed it - I didn't miss it today.

Also, Mr. - I do have copies - although I need to copy the tapes. But I keep it all in my office - she can't get to it. It's not really that incriminating anyway - I don't really think it would help in court - but who knows.

Hi there 19.

I feel happy for you. At least I feel you more strong and active. So far it was good for you to expose, and I believe will be good for your marriage as well.
I trully hope your W will wake up after this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Something a bit strange to me... OMW know's you can read your wife e-mail but your wife dont. Does OMW know's this? Will she keep it to her self? Can you trust OMW on this?

Wish you al the best for the comming days. Hopefuly you'll be walking on the new path of true recovery soon.

Lost

Lost - Thanks. I am not that worried about email - W rarely uses it anyway and I do think OMW will keep quiet about it. I have never found anything by email.

I do feel stronger, but I am less optimistic about recovery. I now know she has continued to lie - and I am not sure I can deal with that.

I am not sure I want to recover. I am thinking about talking to a lawyer today - just for advice - just to be sure I am at least setting myself up the best I can.

I hope you are doing better yourself. Didn't you say you were going to post and let us know what is going on with you?

Thanks

Hi 193. I was wondering if you exposed or not. Glad to see that you did. Said a prayer for you and wife and family.

Glad you exposed so that the A is out in the open to OMW also. THese things thrive by secrets, though your W says it was over it being out in the open at least may help you and OMW verify that it is. Having exposed puts the truth out there. They (A) can only really be handled with honesty that the WS is in an addiction and the BS may want to know to help restore the M and ask WS to yield to steps to help heal form the addiction by being accountable and so forth. Also help BS to heal from the addiction by WS showing willingness to work through it by committing to steps toward recovery. I wish both couples, families the best and pray it all works out.

LLG - Thanks. I am not sure A is over. OMW and I are working together to determine that, but we can only do so much. I know W is still lying about at least one call - that happened on March 2 (which I guess is good). I don't know what else she is lying about.

OMW has not told OM yet. She plans to Friday night (one of them is out of town until then). So, W doesn't know either. Should be an interesting weekend.

Thanks.

I hope it works out for you both and your Ss. Hope they will choose recovery for your Ms.

19,

""Maybe this is twisted, but I am looking forward to telling her.""

I am thinking do not tell her, but let OM tell her after he gets raked over the coals by OMW.

I would like to be a fly on the wall during that conversation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Also, no telling her because she could warn OM that it is coming.

IMHO

k

Whoa! Don't tell her!

Sorry I missed that.

Ditto krusht.

Do not tell your wife you squealed to OMW. But when she asks if you did, "Of course I told her. She deserved to know and it can only help to end it for sure. My goal remains the preservation of the family."

WAT
-------------------
Bleach your old coffee grounds and serve them to your Yankee guests as grits.

krusht and WAT - I am absolutely not going to tell her until OMW confronts him.

I am planning to tell W after that - OMW has promised to tell me as soon as she tells OM.

I realize that it might be more effective not to, but a couple of points:

1. There is a distinct possibility that the EA is over and there has been NC since 3/2. Don't know for sure, but I don't know for sure that it hasn't. If it has ended, it would seem to me that it would make it worse if I don't tell W. She is going to be very pissed anyway.

2. When I tell her, I can give her a chance to fess up and tell me anything she hasn't told me - I do know some stuff that she doesn't know I know, but not much. I am hoping that I can bluff her into telling me more. If I let OM tell her, I will not have that chance and that may be the only chance I have to get her to tell me things I don't already know - if there is anything.

Does that make sense?

P.S. I would love to be a fly on the wall too - OMW doesn't really seem that upset, however. I am a little worried that OM is going to be able to convince her it was nothing ("just an EA") and that my W was the pursuer etc. Not much I can do about that I guess.

Well it's obviously your call.

Your logic is no worse than mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

- as long as you wait for the high sign from OMW. THAT'S the real important factor - don't allow OM to get tipped off before that.

WAT
-------------------
Earth Day recycling idea: Little paper circles from office hole-punchers can be tossed at newlywed bureaucrats.

Hey gang,
Now that 19 has exposed to OMW... I'm thinkin' he could use some guidance on the rest of plan A. Here's a post from him from another thread... anyone want to take a stab at it?

(19, Please excuse me for "talking about you like you're not in the room". But I'm just concerned that my feedback on your post was woefully inadequate)

SC - Thanks. I thought your feedback was great - don't sell yourself short.

I would, of course, appreciate comments and feedback from anyone else too.

Thanks.

19, the only thing you need to be concerned about right now is damage control and cleaning up the after effects of this affair. THEN, you can start working on recovery. By that, I mean preparing yourself for the blow up by having talking points ready and not allowing her to bait you into a fight or "guilt" you for busting her. If you allow her to make you feel guilty for busting her, she will use that as a weapon against you. So beware of that. It is a common diversion tactic.

Secondly, it is very important that you are fully prepared to take steps to seperate them once and for all. That means no more contact at church and no more socialization with the kids. That is the LEAST she can do if you are willing to stay with her.

This is not a step that you can afford to cut corners with, lest you will be dealing with this affair for the next 10 years. [and Easter hugs, how cute] Contact MUST END. For the sake of your marriage, for the sake of your children.

You may even have to tell your children the truth. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they already know, though, they usually do. The bottom line is that your families cannot socialize ANY MORE, that is a consequence of her affair that has to be faced. Perhaps she should explain it to the kids herself.

You won't be able to meet her needs until she goes through withdrawal, so just do your best and most especially avoid lovebusters.

You are doing great; the fact that you did this makes things so much more hopeful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ML - Thanks. I really think she has already gone through withdrawal - or she is not going to - maybe I am being naive. She has told me on more than one occasion that it's not as big a deal as I am making it out to be ... her feelings toward OM that is - I don't believe that, but she's the only one who really knows. It's not a logical attraction at all.

Our kids go to a very small school - about 45 kids in the grade they are in. There is little or no contact between OM and W related to kids. It's usually W and OMW. Don't know what it will be now since I assume OMW will want no contact with W - I can't imagine she would. I don't know how to handle this aspect of it. They have been friends since they were 4.

One concern I have is that OM will be able to downplay this to OMW. On the one call I taped which has anything on it, he backed off when he knew I found out - told my W she needed to work on her marriage without him in the picture. Also, after that it was almost always my W calling him - not vice versa - I can easily see him painting W as pursuer etc. - may be true, but it takes 2 to tango. What do you think? Of course her last husband had full blown A - she's been through this before - she's not stupid.

Finally, what talking points did you have in mind - there will be no guilt. If no other reason, I now know another lie - and she even lied about it again today.

19, have something like this prepared that you can say over and over again because REASON will be of no avail:

"I am sorry you are upset, but I will do what it takes to save our marriage. The OMW had every right to know."

Just keep stating this to her. Don't try to reason, explain, justify, etc; it will do you no good. No matter what you say, she will be unhappy that you busted her.

I think you will be very surprised to see your W begin to go through withdrawal. I know you don't think this will happen, but I suspect the reason you think this is because she has minimized the affair in an effort to divert your attention. I am going to wager that she has the typical ADDICTION that every other WS has.



I would decide what you want to happen here and make it happen, 19.You can't relegate this duty to others. You are the father and the head of your household. This should not be left to the OMW or your W to handle. They are your children and you have to handle this.

Sure, they see each other at school, but the relationship beyond school has to end. Surely you can see that? You can't put yourself in a position of having to drop off and pick up your children at his house. That will not do because all contact has to end with these people. So decide how that will be handled and take those steps. It is up to you, after all.

ML - I hope you are wrong about the addiction thing - but you may be right. I don't know. I do think you are right about why I think what I think - because she has minimized it. However, I really don't think it was to divert attention, but rather because it simply blew over pretty fast. I am not sure it was ever that involved.

Now, I may be totally wrong about that and I am concerned I am wrong. That's one reason I went ahead and told OMW. If it's not over, and if it was a bigger deal, I am going to do what I can to end it ASAP.

I really don't know what to do about kids. They don't really do that much outside of school.

I really hope that after OMW talks to OM that they will leave the church. We'll see.

I also really hope OM doesn't convince OMW that it was no big deal - I need her to be my ally. Having been through this before, you'd think she would be on guard, wouldn't you? I have not talked to her today, but we have emailed several times with info and questions. She definitely wants to know what is going on.

Thanks.

Good for you 19..I knew you would step up and do what you needed to do sooner rather than later...now you can concentrate on recovering your M, if that's what you want.

I personally found it very encouraging that the last contact evident from OM's cell records was March 2..it very well may be true that the EA was 'nipped in the bud' and didn't progress far enough to make it a 'big deal' in your WW's mind. That's a good thing IMHO..

Maybe you should just ride it out and not tell WW at all that you contacted the OM's wife and see if he even tells her that you did..if you hear nothing from WW about it, well then that just confirms more clearly that contact really has ended and that may ease your mind a bit...if she does confront you about it, then you'll know there is another avenue of contact between them..

For my whole life I was always big on 'trusting your gut', still am....but I think once we find out about the things our spouses are capable of, sometimes our 'gut' can jump the gun a little..I"m not saying you should trust her completely, just don't jump to conclusions too soon....if you decide recovering your marriage is what you want to do, you will eventually have to trust that your wife is wanting the same thing, rehashing the past and the terrible hurt she brought upon you is not going to help you overcome the resentment you feel, and I think overcoming that resentment is key in recovery (after affirming that the EA is over of course)..you have taken a HUGE step in making sure it is, and I'm very proud of you for doing that and I think you have a great chance at recovering your marriage from here on out if that's what you decide you want..

God Bless...

193296,

I admire your strengh and feel very happy for you that it seams you're really taking the right steps into recovery.

As for the kids in this situation, tell them about depends on their age.
They will feel that some distance is happening if parents don't talk as much as they used to.
If they are friends at school I believe they should continue friends, just avoid any contact outside school, and you said not much right?

Invite some other kids to play in your house and keep them close to other kids so they wont be best friends with OM kids. Just an idea, again only possible depending on ages.

All the best for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

this_hurts - Thanks. It is nice to hear from you.

I have thought about not telling W at all that I told OMW. In fact, I think there are several other posters who suggest that too.

I am not sure what to do - one reason I want to tell her is that I want to get give her the chance to fess up and maybe tell me something I don't know. This may be the only chance I have for that. I also want to tell her I know she lied and continues to lie when she tells me there has been NC since Feb 21. Maybe it was only once, but it was still a lie.

So I don't know. She will be royally pissed at me when she finds out. Largely, she will be extremely embarrased since she is friends with OMW - in fact, last night she told me she "loves OMW". Sure has a funny way of showing it.

This morning we saw MC and W says it annoys her when I turn around in church and give OM the "evil eye". I do do that and I enjoy it. He won't look at me. Better than hitting him, don't you think?

Anyway, I am going to talk to OMW on Friday before she talks to OM Friday night and I guess make a plan then.

I do worry that W will consider it a big LB - she said this morning that she thinks I took the best years of her life over the past 15 years when I treated her badly.

Of course she doesn't acknowledge everything else that has happened over those same years - stressful things - it's called reality - jobs, 3 kids, houses etc. The end of school - real life. Enough to drive anyone crazy - especially a stay home mom who had a kid with her everyday for 10 years - and a H who should have been much nicer.

Anyway, I acknowledge my role in her unhappiness, but I don't think I am the sole cause and it gets frustrating.

So what is going on with you this_hurts? You don't post much do you?

I hope you are doing OK.

lost - thanks. I wish I was as strong as you seem to think I am - maybe I am and just don't know it? I can only hope.

I also hope I am on the road to recovery, but I don't really feel like it.

Telling OMW defintely made me feel better and made me feel more in control - but, I may not feel that way at all after OMW tells OM and/or W finds out.

I have all kinds of thoughts about what could happen - such as: OM gets pissed and tries to really go after my W to get back at me. I think she has been more the pursuer and he actually backed off back in February. If he pursued, she might respond. But that's OK if it happens.

We'll figure something out for the kids.

So what's happening with you lost? I hope you are OK.

Thanks.

19-

I'm in a similar situaiton with respet to treating my wife poorly - past 1-2 yrs - and feeling very bad about it. I can see in your posts how sorrowfull and remorseful you are for not putting your wife and marriage first. I did exactly the same thing. Now, faced with losing my marriage, I suddenly understand how important it is to me and how I've neglected it. Neglected her.

My wife sounds like yours. She's angry at me becuase it took an affair to wake me up. She resents that NOW I'm ready to participate in the marriage after all this time.

So just like you I acknowledge her unhappiness. And I too am frustrated because I don't feel like it's all my fault. Though that's the picture she's painting. When I talk to her I feel like I'm the one that had the affiar! It's VERY frustrating and I can't wait for her to get to the point where she takes owership for the affair as well as responsibility for her own happiness. We BOTH have to own up to our mistakes.

Anyway just wanted to say that I'm with you.

Side note- someone said that GoodFather had a really good Plan A letter? I looked that the linked thread and could not find it. Can anyone help?

Congratulations on exposing the affair and talking to the OM's wife. When your wife finds out, she will most likely be furious, so prepare for that. They usually say that this is the last straw, they were going to work on the marriage, but now are done, it was none of the OM's wife's business, you went about this all the wrong way, it is none of your business, you are crazy, and my personal favorite - they will never trust you again.

Believer - Thanks. We'll see what happens, but I have a feeling all he11 is going to break loose. I'm ready for it. She may very well say it was the last straw .... she is already pissed at me right now .... wait til she hears this!

Of course it is made much worse by the fact that she considers OMW to be a friend - in fact, she said last "I love OMW" - I really wanted to tell her then, but I didn't.

MDC - Seems to be quite a few of us on here who have treated our W's poorly. Also, seems a lot of us didn't really know how bad til they had an A (EA in my case). The good news for you is that it was only a year or 2 - mine was more like 10-15.

My W also resents that I want to change now and actually have changed successfully - she admits I have changed. She resents how easy it was for me to change after doing it for so long. My only real response is that it was not really intentional, but more of a habit. Once I realized what I was doing, it wasn't that hard to break. I didn't want to be like that. That is not an excuse, by the way, just an explanation. There is no excuse for how I acted.

Like you, I also don't feel that I am the total cause of all her misery. In a way I wonder if she needs to be away from me for awhile to see that. Her life would be very different - she's a stay at home mom - that would be over. I don't think she appreciates that fact at all or the fact that I enable that lifestyle. I guess that is sort of beside the point and maybe a little petty. My point is (and I have made this to her) I am not the sole cause of her problems and there is some good there too - she doesn't acknowledge it -

Some on here say that is the "fog" - not sure I believe that, but maybe it is - W never mentioned this (at least not the gravity of it) until her EA - coincidence? I don't know.

Batten down the hatches and expect all H to break loose. That is what usually happens. Just tell her that you will do what it takes to save your marriage and protect your family.

The OM will probably tell his wife that it was "nothing", and try to blame your wife, or even you for overreacting. But don't let that bother you. His wife will be on high alert.

Usually the OM will end the affair to prevent problems at home. That is what I would guess. If that happens, then your wife will be very sad and angry at you.

Tons of people here have gone through this and come out with a better marriage, so have confidence it will work for you too.

Believer - I actually really do believe that it is already over. I think it was a few weeks ago.

I am very concerned that OM will be able to convince OMW that it was "nothing".

Please tell me what you think based on this (anyone, please):

- it was "only" an EA - they did hold hands once and he "kissed" her - on the cheek she says - who really knows

- it lasted 4 weeks and was all phone calls except one night at a retreat (where it started), met for coffee once and talked in carpool line once

- once OM knew I knew, he backed off (as far as I know) - the best evidence I have of the EA is a taped phone call of W telling OM that I had cell records and knew something was up. OM told W she needed to work on M and he was going to stop calling - or that if they talked it should be different - just as friends - not as long and not about same subjects - W was very upset about it (crying) said she wanted to keep talking to him - OM said he was "going to make his crush on W go away..." -it was obvious he had feelings, but he backed off - OMW has listened to that call with me. Personally, I think he backed off because he realized at that point it wasn't a little game anymore.

- I have one other call a few weeks later which was pretty much nothing except W told OM that I might tell OMW - OM said "that would not be a smart move, but it can be dealt with too. He'll just have to follow his conscience on that one..."

- After I found out, almost all the calls have been from W to OM on public phones - he really hasn't called her. So he could pretty easily make her out to be the pursuer etc. - it may even be true to a certain extent. Of course if OM says that to OMW and W finds out, she may end up hating him.

- finally, last phone call appears to have been 3/2.

Other than cell phone records that's all I have except what W told me.

One other thing: OMW's previous H cheated on her too - total PA with an OC etc. So she has been through it before.

I know you don't know her, and I know you haven't heard the calls, but how would you react if you were OMW?

She will be on full alert. He can spin this any way he wants to, but it won't fool her for long.

It is hard to say if the EA is over or not, but you did the most important thing to end it. Be glad about that. Almost always, the OM completely abandons the affair partner to take care of his marriage.

Your wife will probably not realize that the OM has been using her, and will defend him, even as he drops her.

....and THEN she may end up despising him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And THEN the Knight in Shining Armor rescues her!

TA DA!!!

Don't you just LOVE happy endings!

(The hard part in getting thru all those chapters BEFORE the ending.)

WAT

Believer and WAT - I hope you are both right - I really don't think she'll end up despising him, but I hope so.

One problem with that is that they have been very good friends for the past 2 years. I know the EA wasn't going on that long, but they have been good friends. Probably better than I knew until I talked to OMW.

OM has already laid groundwork to make me look like a jealous H. Told OMW that I made W get out of small church group where this started because I was uncomfortable with relationhip between W and OM. He also told OMW that W didn't want to go home from retreat because I would "grill" her about what happened etc.

Of course, OMW has seen and heard everything that I have and she told me she didn't blame me for making W quit the group. Also, helped that I could tell her that rector of church knew and agreed with decision too.

OM is a pretty smooth talker, however. Of course, I have the tapes so OMW can hear what he says to others .....

19,

""- it was "only" an EA - they did hold hands once and he "kissed" her - on the cheek she says - who really knows

- it lasted 4 weeks and was all phone calls except one night at a retreat (where it started), met for coffee once and talked in carpool line once""

Like the husband drunkenly tells his wife, honey I only had 2 beers!.... when he had actually downed a 12 pack.

Just saying don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

I still think you should wait to tell your W. I think it will seem more like a revenge thing and more hurtful if you look her straight in the eye and tell her.

Wait until she tells you what you did...if OM tells your W.

If OMW rakes OM over the coals and he DOES NOT contact your W..<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />...then maybe it IS over and it was only a peck on the cheek and holding hands.

If he does contact your W then we can assume it was more than that. Specially if OMW insists on no contact.

Am I making this more complicated?

k

19, please suggest to OMW that she come here for support also. If OM is going to try to whitewash the whole affair, she may need a place of refuge. Also, you and she might be interested in a book by Shirley Glass, Ph.D., entitled Not "Just Friends". The content is self explanatory.

krusht - You sound like someone who has had 12 and claimed 2. I've never been that bold - I could try 8-9 and claim 2, but not 12.

I have little doubt that OM will contact her once OMW tells her. I think he'll do it even if she insists on NC. I think he'll have to so they can see if they said the same thing and just see what's happened. He'll also want to rant and rave since he'll be pissed at me.

I think they actually both consider themselves to be friends still - who just can't talk because of a jealous nutcase husband who ruined a little game they were playing before they could screw each other.

It's not really hard to do either - he'll go to work and call her. OMW and I may never know. I'll know if he calls her because I am snooping, but not if she doesn't answer her cell phone and then goes to her favorite public phone - which is what she'll probably do.

So I am still inclined to tell her myself - in a very nice way that won't seem vengeful at all.

She sees OMW from time to time (they are friends) and even though she was telling OM stuff about what I knew and I was in the dark, I really don't want her to be in the dark as far as what OMW knows.

Plus, I really want the chance to try to make W fess up and tell me stuff I don't know. Telling her is the only chance I have at that.

19, it is not a lovebuster to expose her to her victim. A lovebuster is:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

See? Exposing your W is NOT a lovebuster at all. She won't like it, but that is ok. She will get over it. And sort the fact from the fiction when she complains about how badly you have treated her. WS' typically rewrite history by demonizing the BS in order to rationalize their affair. Funny, she would rather focus on how badly YOU have treated her instead of the abuse she has heaped on you. It's always easier to look at others, though, when you have a guilty conscience. Please just recognize it for what it really is.

Whether or not you decide to tell her that OMW has been told, it is important that she DOES KNOW she has been busted. Exposure is not much use if the WS doesn't know. I think you have good reason to tell her yourself, but I also like the idea of her finding out from OM.


This is a lie.

ML - Thanks. I am glad to hear from you.

Anyway, been listening to my recorder tonight - I am more convinced than ever that there has been contact -

Heard a call that was today - with a friend who said she was "talking in code" just in case - said "did you have a morning meeting today" W said "Yes, why are you talking in code, I met with MC today..." "haven't you had some other morning meetings?" "no, I haven't...." OM is out of town this week per OMW and W is not stupid - she worries about the recorder.

There you go - please tell me if I am imagining things, but I think they have shifted to in person meetings? What do you think? They didn't meet this morning, because we did meet with MC.

Anyway, there you have it. I will be sure to let OMW know ASAP.

I am glad I told her. Thank you for helping me do it.

Thanks.

Let me ask you something. Would it be worthwhile to not say anything and instead follow them for a morning when you both think they could be meeting? If he has been out of town all week, they would be anxious to meet when he gets back. When does he get back?

I am glad you told her too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe - I think he actually got back today. She was with me from 8-10 and then with IC 10-11. Then she was on the phone - she didn't see him today. Tomorrow we'll be at DS school first thing. I may try to follow her after that.

I don't think it is as bad as it sounds, but it's worse than I thought - or it may be. I don't know.

OMW is out of town right now - that's why she can't tell him til this weekend.

If she is meeting with him, we'll probably end up divorced. I am not sure I can take that. I am at the end of the rope.

19,
I'm sorry to hear the new developments...I think you are very right to be alarmed by the 'code talk' between your W and her friend...I really am sorry..

That said, I think you should take the first chance you get to follow her and see if she goes to OM..the perfect time to have them off guard before OMW confronts him, I really do pray that you find nothing going on here...it's sad to me to watch so many lives reduced to spying and suspicion and hurt, I know how you feel..

God Bless ...

this_hrts - Thanks.

It is sad, isn't it? And I don't just mean me, you or anyone in particular - just the sheer number of people on this board whose lives have, as you said, "been reduced to spying and suspicion and hurt" - if there are this many people on this board, just think of how many other people out there who aren't? What is the deal with this?

I may try to follow her - that's easier said than done for a number of reasons, but I may try to do it tomorrow (Friday).

On the other hand, I am really ready to go ahead and get this all out in the open and see what I can find out that way. I am pretty sure W will tell me more when I tell her I am talking to OMW and OMW is talking to OM. She will not know what he tells her (and neither will I until she tells me). I think I can bluff her too since I do know a few things that she doesn't know I know.

I am just tired of the crap - tired of her telling me how badly I have acted. Tired of listening to phone calls and checking cell records. As someone wrote on another board, I am just tired of it all.

Thanks.

Please don't be too sure about ANYTHING having to do with her, OK? - except she's gonna be madder than a wet hen when she finds out you've been talking to OMW.

Did you say above that you're still thinking about telling your wife that you talked to OMW? And you think this will generate more disclosure from her?

Ahem - wanna buy a bridge?

Please, please do not say ANYTHING to your wife about your interaction with OMW.

WAT

WAT - What do you mean by: please do not say ANYTHING to your wife about your interaction with OMW

Do you mean don't tell her I talked to OMW at all? (which I know is what some people think I should do)

or

Don't tell her any details of what I discussed with OMW?

Also, don't know if you saw my recent posts above, but I have a renewed feeling that there has been contact - and I do know for a fact that there has been contact since she last told me there was - admittedly, however, it was on March 2.

I did see the updates which prompted my recommendation NOT to tell her you've talked to OMW.

What I mean is don't tell her before she hears back thru OM that you talked to OMW. When she asks you if you did, by all means admit it then - but not before. In other words, let the information reach her from sources other than you. When she asks (accuses) do not necessarily tell her everything you discussed with OMW. Things NOT to tell her would be stuff that would reveal your sources of intelligence, i.e., would reveal how you snoop. Just be smart.

Make sense?

WAT

It makes sense in a way - I guess it would confirm continued contact - but only if OM doesn't go NC just because OMW confronts him.

I am not sure, however, that that is the best way to flat out end the EA if it is still going on. Remember, W and OMW are friends and have been for a long time. They are not best friends, but they're good friends (I should say they were). In addition to being pissed, she is going to be distraught when she finds out OMW knows. If is not over, I do think that will end it.

One other thing, even before I told OMW, OM had told OMW some things about me to try to make me look like the "jealous husband". He told her I didn't like the "friendship" between OM and W. He laid the groundwork for his defense if OMW ever found out.

Now, he doesn't remember all he said on the call I taped and OMW has now heard. While it wasn't terrible, it was more than enough to show an EA - especially when you add in the other "evidence".

My point in all that is that I am concerned that OM will be able to downplay this to OMW and convince her I have blown this way out of proportion. If that happens, the only benefit to my telling OMW is that W will back off when she finds out. So, she has to find out for that to happen.

19 - thanks for posting on my thread. I have been following yours. Just not posted anything because I'm just as lost.

I can tell you that I talked to Steve Harley yesterday and it helped me immensely. If you haven't done that you might give it a try...

And yes, it's sad that we have to snoop and spy to get the truth. It was a big deal for me to put a recorder in my wife's car. I had a pit in my stomach for about a day. I get nervous when I take it out to check & put it back in.

One thing I will say about snooping is that I would not be anywhere if I hadn't. The affair would be going on without my knowledge and we'd be tearing each other to pieces, hurting our poor, innocent children in the process.

Snooping helped me too - I think. Of course, it's impossible to know what would have happened if I hadn't snooped and hadn't caught her, but, like you, I really believe it would have kept going and, in my case, turned into a full blown PA. Maybe I am wrong, but I have a feeling most men aren't going to go with an EA for too long without wanting a PA. I absolutely think snooping is the way to go, but I hope I can quit one day.

I don't really like listening to the calls I listen too either, but almost everytime I hear something that bothers me. Usually nothing concret, but something that just isn't quite right. I need to do the car thing since W uses her cell phone for most all calls.

As I said on your thread, it seems a lot of WS's say bad things about BS's and how the WS's feel. Unfortunately, some of it is probably true (I know it is in my case) but I do think they "re-write" and make it worse than it really was. I don't know if that is "fog", but a lot of people on here seem to think it is.

Tonight will probably be a big night for me - OMW is supposed to confront OM tonight and then I am going to tell W that I told OMW - and that I know for a fact that she is still lying to me - should be fun.

Thanks.

19,

""that I am concerned that OM will be able to downplay this to OMW and convince her I have blown this way out of proportion. If that happens, the only benefit to my telling OMW is that W will back off when she finds out. So, she has to find out for that to happen.""

My friend, I think you are thinking way too much and worrying this thing to pieces.

The deed is done. DO NOT say anything to you W concerning your discussions with OMW. Now that OMW is out of town, be patient and await her return.

DO maybe follow them if possible or take your W on a weekend trip somewhere...surprise! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Stay strong and patient.

k

I agree that they re-write. Totally agree. But you can't bring that up. I would love to say - do you really think you should direct all your anger, resentment and hurt towards me? Don't you think that you were responsible for some of it as well?

Because if you or I take that tact then it'll just push them to having to take 100% responsibility for the affair. Because while you and I did contribute to their unhappiness the affair was 100% them. At least that's how I understand it. You and I had nothing to do with the affair. It's a lot of responsibility for the WS to assume. So how do you get them to assume that responsibility? And FORGIVE. That's the problem I'm having. I think it may just take time. I don't know.

Good luck tonight. I wish I had leverage from the OMW but she knows and threw him out. She hates him. Served him w/divorce papers on his birthday. It did feel good to talk to her though.

Will be thinking about you.

19,

""then I am going to tell W that I told OMW - and that I know for a fact that she is still lying to me""

Why do you INSIST on doing this? I know I told you not to do this but WAT also told you the same thing.

You must listen to WAT!! Go reread his post about "buying a bridge"

That is a baaaddd idea.

k

MDC - It is hard. I do tell her that I am not 100% responsible for her unhappiness ( I can only take so much). She usually agrees, but I don't think she really does.
Thanks.

krusht - Thanks.

First, I do overthink all this - you're right. I have talked to OMW more since my post above - she's pissed and I am not as worried about OM being able to downplay it. She is back in town and will confront OM tonight.

Second, I know that you and WAT advised me not to tell W that I talked to OMW. I am not sure I agree. Let me ask you this: what is the downside to my telling W?

The only downside I see is that I will not then be able to wait and see if there is contact on Monday (when everyone is at work). The way I see it is that even if there truly has been no contact since Feb 21 (that is what W says and I actually know there was contact on Mar 2), OM will call her to let her know OMW knows. I am positive that will happen and I can already hear W justifying it.

I already know for a fact that there has been at least one contact since W has told me NC.

So, I am not sure what the downside is? Telling her, on the other hand at least gives me a chance that she'll fess up to something I don't know about. Maybe not a good chance, but at least a chance.

Don't count on her fessing up anything. You sound like you want to hurt and punish W by telling her. You make me believe that you want to see the hurt on her face, because you are so adimit on telling her yourself. It almost seems like you can't stand waiting to tell her. STOP...THINK...

Is what I am saying true? Be honest. why do you want to tell her so bad. I am not trying to be harsh, but, you seem kind of controlling to me. If this was just an EA as your wife says, then you need to Plan A your a** off, so that she sees that you are sincere about rebuiling your M and that you love her and forgive her. I know that you have been trying plan A and she has told you that she does not believe you can change. You can, but not if you are going to act all suspicious and controlling. Keep showing her that you are there for her.

You confronting her, taping her, making her feel trapped and smothered, is not going to put you in a good light. Do you want to tell her so you can say to yourself, "Ha Ha, now Iv'e got you now spill your gut's. How does it feel?"

Wrong, wrong, wrong way to go. Do not tell her. Instead of pushing her into the arms of the OM, ask her to go away this weekend with you, make it irresistable for her to say no. Romance, she loves that. Be a night in shining armor, not a Dragon. You could save her from making that big mistake meeting the other guy and you will feel better about yourself and the way you handled it.

Stop the obsessing...You are trying to find fault and could possibly be making it worse for yourself.

Gosh, Beauty has just said EXACTLY what I was going to say.

You keep saying you caught her in another lie. I think it is more she has actually forgotten the date of last contact.

I also am 99.99% sure that the OM was attracted to your wife, enjoyed a bit of flirting, your wife started coming on too strong, he tried to back off, she pursued him and he was left backpedalling like mad trying to extricate himself.

Also PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE listen to WAT and Krusht. They are SO right about this. Also read and reread and reread Beauty's post again.

BTW my H exposed my A to the OMs W, 6 months after he found out, with my blessing, because I was all set to start the A again.

Beauty and Kiwi - Thanks.

You are wrong about one thing: I don't really want to tell W at all. It's not about punishment at all. She's going to be real pissed at me when I tell her.

The main reason I do want to tell her is that I think she will less pissed if I tell her - it won't be quite as much sneaking around behind her back etc. I don't intend to grill her at all - just let her say what she is going to say.

Also, she may very well see OMW on Sunday - even though W did it to me, I really hate for her to have to see OMW not knowing that OMW knows.

Kiwi - you may be right that she came on strong, but he was too for awhile. Also, I really don't think she forgot the date - she is lying about that.

Anyway, my point is that I would prefer not to tell her - I'd really like to have a nice night etc. (Friday is even an SF night on our "schedule") - but I really think I need to to try to mitigate her anger -

Does that make sense or do you still think I am wrong?

Thanks.

19, yours is a slightly different exposure than most, in that it is quite probable that your W and the OM are no longer in contact. I know it must be hard waiting to see if he does tell your w that you've exposed. OM didn't tell me because we were no longer in contact and as someone said to me on here (I wish I could remember who) he'd be too busy dodging the flying crockery to contact me anyway.

Yes, do try and have a nice night and relax a little.

Beauty - We can't go away this weekend - I wish.

I don't really feel like I smother or make her feel trapped - I am suspicious, but I have good reason to be.

As far as fault, isn't there fault if there is still contact? I don't really care about fault, I just want the contact to end so the EA can be over and we can try to move on.

I don't plan to grill her. Just tell her, "Look, I need to tell you that I talked to OMW and told her everything...."

Don't you think she would rather hear that from me than from OM or OMW? Don't you think she'd be more pissed if I didn't tell her? Isn't it more honest to tell her?

The reason I keep mentioning that she has lied about contact is that that justifies my telling OMW - in my mind at least it makes it not quite as bad.

I am open to suggestions - I really don't want to make this any worse than it has to be. She is friends with OMW and is going to be very mad and embarrased.

Thanks.

She should have thought about mad and embarrassed before she started fooling around with her husband.

It's not a game and so many people start by treating it as one. I know I did.

Kiwi - Thanks.

I hope you are right about no contact, but I don't think so. Every time I hear W's calls I hear something that sounds suspicious. As recently as day before yesterday one of her friends was talking to her "in code" about "morning meetings"....

Also, even if there has been NC, I am 99.9% sure he'll call her Monday and tell her OMW knows. Don't forget that they have been friends for a couple of years and they think they can still be friends - both of them do.

Based on all that, I really don't understand why you and Beauty don't think I should not just tell her - as long as it's done in as nice a way as possible.

Thanks.

I totally agree with you there - but I am trying not to take that attitude with W - even though I feel that way.

That's one reason why I think it would be better for me to tell her I told OMW than for it to come from someone else - like I am sneaking around tattling on her

Does that not make sense?

Look, I am dreading this - I don't want to make it worse than it has to be.

I still think your wrong. If you prefer not to tell her, then DON'T...

You say you want to have a nice night with her, but how are you going to do that, if your constantly thinking about what your next PI move will be.

You want her to open up to you? Stop trying to catch her in a lie. Show her you love her, Romance her, and stop obsessing about what might have happened. She admitted to having feelings for this guy, but it's up to you to make her forget about this guy.

Don't let her get in harms way this weekend. Take her far away from it and have a good time doing it.

19, the main reason for not telling her is to see if the information comes from another source. I'd forgotten about the "code" talks. They do look VERY suspicious.

I'm not really making less of the OM's part in this. If it hadn't been caught it probably would have developed into a PA. Just wait and see if the OM contacts her to tell her. I'm betting my bottom dollar it will be only to inform her his w knows and to tell your w to keep out of his life.

***She is friends with OMW and is going to be very mad and embarrased.***

Dude - you're not getting it here. WW *should* be mad and embarrassed.

Being mad and embarrassed is a Natural Consequence of cheating in her marriage.

If there are no Natural Consequences because you keep trying to protect her from them, what reason does she have to knock it off?

None. Your pain means nothing to a WS. A WS will only stop when there is pain for *them.* And as long as you keep trying to protect your WW from the pain of her own behavior and the Natural Consequence of her own freely made choices, you can expect nothing but more of the same behavior.
Mulan

Kiwi and Beauty - So neither of you thinks it would be better coming from me than the OM or OMW? That is my real concern here. If you were her, how would you rather hear it?

Thanks.

P.S. I can't get her away this weekend - impossible due to family stuff.

Mulan - That is great point about consequences and her not caring whether I am upset. I think it's true. She doesn't care - or at least not much.

I am not trying to protect her at all - otherwise I would not have told OMW at all.

I am just trying to "complete" this exposure to OMW in the best way.

Thanks.

19, she won't want to hear it at all from anyone.

Because - it means that the whole thing's over. It means it's out in the open and isn't a secret little "love affair" any more, it's reality and people have been hurt.

That is the WHOLE POINT of exposure. Even though I knew my H was exposing in my heart there was a feeling "well, that's it for ever now - everyone knows and it's totally over. If I contact him I think he'll tell his W and she'll tell my H. If he contacts me he'll think I'll tell my H and my H will tell his W."

The reason the WS is SO mad is because all the doors have been closed.

I know she is not going to want to hear it (and I know I am beating a dead horse...) - she has to hear it from someone or it is worthless - shouldn't it be from me? (nicely)?

19,

she is not going to accept it "nicely" from anyone. In all likelihood, it will appear to her that you are being vindictive and you are making sure she knows that you did it. It's best to let things unfold and be there to talk to her about your desire to restore the marriage when she comes home hopping mad.

xring

If she doesn't hear it from the OM that's a GOOD thing.

Look, I know exactly what you're saying and why you're worried. You're worried that the OMs W is going to confront her and your w will be as mad as ****** that you did this behind her back. You're worried that the OM is going to tell her and she will be as mad as ****** you did this behind her back.

I can understand that if you tell her, at least you've told her what you've done. She'll still be mad as ****** but without the added mad as ****** because you did it without telling her.

Gosh, does any of that make sense?

Just wait until you know the OMW has told the OM and see what happens then.

I have to add that the day my H exposed (at 8.00am in the morning then he rang me at work to tell me he'd done it) I spent the day jumping every time the phone rang. In the end I got reception to screen my calls.

As it happens neither the OM nor his W called.

When I bumped into the OM accidentally about a year after all this he said she had wanted to call me that day but was too upset and wasn't sure what the outcome of it all would be.

This is exactly my thinking - she's gonna be mad anyway, but at least I was honest - and while I agree that it's good if OM doesn't tell her, she has to know at some point -



I am definitely not doing anything until I know this - problem is, OMW will tell OM tonight - OM won't call W til Monday at earliest -

19...

Why should it be from you??? Kiwij just posted exactly what I was going to say. She is a WW, you should listen to her opinion. She has been through it.

Are you afraid that no one is going to tell her? It has been exposed, now let the exposure do it's work. You have done all you can. She Will find out. I just think that you want her to find out NOW so the EA will stop. Be patient...

I know you want all this to end because you are tired, but it still has a long way to go. Hang in there..

FWW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, exactly what Beauty said.

Beauty - Not sure how much of my thread you have read, but I debated for weeks (literally) whether to expose at all. I finally did it, but I am still not sure it was the right thing to do.

Why? Because I think it is possible the EA is over and ended over 2 mos. ago. Seems to me that if the EA ended then exposure may do more harm than good.

If it is over and then if W finds out from someone other than me, then it seems to me it could be even worse.

Now you're overthinking it again.

Just relax 19.

Even if it IS over I'm also betting that your wife is plotting and planning ways to get him to contact her or for her to contact him. You are looking inside the mind of an FWW right now (me) and I know what I'm talking about.

Exposure can only be a good thing.

I have been reading your thread and I know most of it. It took you a long time to expose and I know that your W got mad, but it is the only way to make sure that it does not start up again. Sounds like W is not sure about rebuilding M and could easily try to slip back into A if you don't handle things delicately. You can sway her back. The fog needs to lift. Time is what it's going to take.

Take the heat, you have so far. I remember that you went back and forth about exposing when everyone told you to. But you did it and now the A is no longer secret to anyone.
If you want to tell her than thats up to you. I can only give you my opinion. Good Luck

19,

Just wanted to thank you for responding to my post on another thread and give you my full support - whether or not you'll tell your W about the exposure, and everything else you'll face going forward. While I didn't expose the A to OWH, I strongly agree with others here that the exposure is the most crucial, beneficial, and right thing to do to end the A for all parties involved. Your W will probably be mad at you regardless of who she hears it from anyway, so just stand tall, and know that you've done the right thing. Kiwi said it the best - the exposure can only be a good thing.

While I know that some (maybe many) of you thought I should not tell W that I told OMW, I did tell W last night.

Surprisingly, W did not really get mad at all. I was expecting her to be furious. She wasn't - or she was doing a great job of hiding it. Of course when she told me what she did (see below) I was furious and proceeded to LB for a pretty long time. Might not have helped me any, but it was satisfying.

Maybe she wasn't mad because she is guilty. She has been in contact with OM. She has been lying to me since February 24 or so. About the only good thing is that she sticks to the no PA line. Assuming OM told OMW the same, then it does still look like nol PA.

According to W, she has been calling OM about once a week. She also saw him about 10 days ago - so around April 12. She actually went to his office and took him cookies for some trip he was going on. Said she stayed there about 30 minutes. Bear in mind that his office is about 25 miles from our house. She has never even been to the town before - it was not easy for her to do and yet she did it. I could not believe it when she told me that.

I will talk to OMW tomorrow to see what OM told her. She did confront him Friday night, she just has not been able to talk to me about it yet. It will be interesting to compare notes and see if W is still lying.

W says she is nothing but friends with OM. Has no other feelings for him. Said once reason she called him is because I told her she couldn't. This past Tuesday, on the advice of my IC, I "revoked" the ultimatum I had given W a couple of mos. ago (i.e. call OM and I'll divorce you). W did not talk to OM this week and she says one reason is because I revoked ultimatum.

Anyway, I hate W right now (seriously, I do). I don't want to be anywhere near her. I don't know what to do. Should I continue to Plan A? Should I tell W's mother? (that would piss her off). Should I leave W - for separation maybe?

I refuse to live with her doing this and I have no confidence at all that she will stop. This is the third time she has told me she will stop. There is no way I can believe her after all of her lies.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

P.S. THANK YOU to all of you who cajoled me into telling OMW - I was relatively convinced there was little or no contact and, obviously, I was wrong. Thanks for continuing to tell me to do it when I waffled for so long.

This is a lie, 19. She is contacting the OM for one reason and one reason only, she WANTS TO. To say that she does it because of an ultimatum is profoundly childish, deceitful and disrespectful.

Something needs to be pointed out about your C, though. Has it ocurred to you that some strangers on the internet KNEW that your W was still contacting the OM but your C DID NOT? That should tell you how capable this C is in matters of infidelity.

Good job on getting the truth out of her. I do think you should set a firm boundary about what you will do if contact continues, 19. I would tell her - calmly - with no lovebusters, that all contact must end in order for your marriage to recover. ALL CONTACT.

If you stay firm in this boundary, it will give OMW the courage to stay firm also. And I would show OMW what Dr Harley says about ending contact. He is ADAMANT about it.

It doesn't matter if she calls it a baloney sandwich or a "friendship;" it is destroying your marriage and the OM's marriage and must stop. NOW.

The first step in recovery in to send a no contact letter to the OM that is written together and sent by you. [sample below]

However, I suspect she will BALK at this step because she is not done with her affair. Your lovebusting has given her the justification she needs to continue. This is why avoiding lovebusters at this point is so critical.

But you do need to plant the seeds NOW and convey the message that you a) expect the nc letter to be sent and b) will not settle for anything less than TOTAL no contact. She must be made to understand this, 19, because you will end up divorced if you try to cut this corner. Some things are negotiable, THIS IS NOT.

I would expose the affair to your MIL as soon as you can get in touch with her. Tell her about the affair, tell her that W calls it a "friendship" but that you have evidence to the contrary. Tell her you love her and want to save your marriage. Ask for her help and influence.

I would also tell your kids. This affair very much effects your kids, 19, and they have a right to know what is happening. They may have to change churches, drop friends and they need to know that Mr.OM is a bad man who is to be avoided. They DESERVE to know why these changes must take place. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. I am also concerned that she could be use the kids as a pretext to meet up with the OM if they don't know.

If they KNOW what she is doing, she won't be able to fool them. They may also have seen some things that make them suspect an affair already and are scratching their heads. This is VERY COMMON, 19.

And lastly, you must call a TRUCE with her if you hope to save your marriage. Let her know how sorry you are that you lambasted her. Tell her you love her and want to save this marriage but are very disappointed. This DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU APPEASE HER or relax your boundaries, 19. Plan A does not stand for appeasement.

Plan A is two parts: kill the affair and attract her back by meeting her needs. Attracting her back does not mean giving into her destructive demands.

Dr. Harley?s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she?s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

Please tell me you didn't go to that church today?

ML - Thanks. And thank you again very much for getting me to tell OMW. If you hadn't kept on me about it, I don't think I would have done it.

You are right - she has been contacting him because she wants to. (and I love the baloney sandwich comment).

I guess I will have to tell her I am sorry for lambasting her - but I am really not sorry. I know I shouldn't have done that, but when she told me she went to his office and took him cookies, that was all I could take.

That may be all I can take in general.

Or I guess I have to go back to Plan A.

Of course, your response is assuming I don't just want to get out right now. I am not so sure I don't. I don't think I will ever be able to believe her again - I really don't.

I am absolutely going to get her to write a NC letter ASAP. She may balk, but she might do it anyway. Especially since OMW knows. W is worried about that. She told me this morning that OMW might tell all the parents in the kids grade at school. I didn't tell her I thought that would be funny, but I do. I can't imaagine OMW would do that.

W said it might affect our kids - the fact that I told OMW. I didn't say much (trying not to LB) but I wanted to say, "me telling OMW didn't do squat - you did this, not me, I just told someone what you did" She also said more than once that she didn't think it was fair that I told OMW. What a joke. OMW wanted to know.

Anyway, I am just going on now about nothing so I will stop. I guess I know some specific things I need to do, I am just not sure what I need to do in general. At some point the plug needs to be pulled - I am just not sure when.

Thanks.

I didn't go - but W did with the kids. I can imagine what you are going to say about that ..... so go ahead and let me have it.

This will be the first time she has gone without me since dday. I just decided today I didn't *&^%$#@ care.

I am 99% sure that OM and OMW are not there today, anyway.

The whole church thing is a big mess. I have commitments there through the end of the year that are very hard for me to get out of. Plus, my mother goes there and has for her entire life.

I am hoping OM and OMW will change churches. They are connected to it too, but not as much as we are. If not, then I think we will leave, even though it will be hard.

1. Are you going to tell MIL?

2. Are you going to tell your kids?

3. Is this going to be the last week your family goes to that church again until you know that OM and OMW no longer go there?

Or 4. Are you going to sit on this again, making all kind of excuses for not doing the right thing, hoping that things are better than they are or that they will magically change?

UVA - Thanks. (and thanks for telling me what you really think - I deserve it).

I don't know what I am going to do at this point.

Telling MIL would really piss off W. No doubt about it.

I don't really want to tell my kids.

Church is hard since we both have obligations there. I am going to talk to OMW tomorrow and discuss it.

I am inclined to sit on it for a little while - at least until I talk to OMW tomorrow. The first thing I need to do is see if OM told OMW anything I don't know.

I don't know if this makes it better or worse, but it does appear to me that W has been pursuing OM (not vice versa). She calls him, goes to see him etc. I have a feeling that he wants it to end - escpecially now that OMW knows.

Thanks.

19, you MUST tell her that YES, your affair has very much effected our kids. They can no longer play with the OM's children and must be told about the affair. They may not be able to go back to our church. So, HE11 YES it has effected your kids! That is the understatement of the year. Affairs have WIDESPREAD effect on everyone in the family. As you can see!


This just amazes me to no end. She is going along as if nothing has happened. She does not COMPREHEND the damage around her for some reason.

19, you have to expose this affair, to your kids, your MIL and your mother. They must understand why you can't go to church there anymore as long as the OM attends. The kids must understand why they can never associate with these people again. You simply CANNOT afford to keep this secret for your W. To do so only endangers your family and enables the affair.

I think you are making a big mistake by not putting your foot down NOW about the church. It enables your wife to go on her merry way and ignore the damage in her wake. She should not be going to that church until she KNOWS the OM is no longer there. She should not be going ANYWHERE where he might be. But that will never happen until you expose her further and let her know that nothing short of absolute NO CONTACT will suffice.


It is not supposed to make her HAPPY, but is intended to apply pressure for her to end her affair. Exposure is so effective because it allows the affairee to see themselves through the eyes of others. It is a REALITY CHECK, something that your W sorely needs.

I don't mean to defend W, but she had to go because she teaches sunday school (they alternate and this was her day).

And you are right, she doesn't seem to comprehend the damage at all - I can't figure that out either. Is it fog?

She may be coming around - the message I gave was pretty clear last night.

She also had the nerve to tell me this would never have happened if I had treated her better for the past 15 years.

I vote for exposing to the pastor and elders, as well. They can talk to both parties involved, and will not want an affair going on right in the pews in front of them.

Also there's nothing quite so scary as your pastor knowing you have done a Bad Thing, and this will make your WW very uncomfortable. At this stage, uncomfortable is good.

19, please lay out the plan here for her. She does not understand the ramifications of her affair because her affair has been protected - and HIDDEN. She didn't have to go to church today at all. She SHOULDN'T be going to church.

Explain to her that your marriage cannot EVER recover unless all contact is ended. The affair takes all precedence over everything else.

When affairs are exposed, the affairee cannot hide from reality and PRETEND as easily as your wife. She will likely continue to minimize the affair and go on as usual unless you create some major conflict here and continue to interfere with the affair.

Didn't you tell me that your pastor KNOWS about this affair? Why would she still be teaching SS if she is having an affair? WOW


There is no excuse - EVER - for having an affair. You are 50% responsible for the state of the marrisge, and she is 50% responsible. She is, however, 100% responsible for her affair.

Not So - Thanks.

The Pastor (actually a rector in our case) has known since the beginning of all this - W and I met with him 2 days after dday - I made her get out of the small group where this started and we had to talk to rector to do that.

He was a little helpful, but he bought her BS hook, line and sinker - sort of like I did - that they were just friends etc.

Have to think about the elders (actually vestry in our case) - especially since I am one.

ML -

It's a pretty liberal church (a lot more liberal than I am - that's one reason I actually wouldn't mind leaving)

- also, the rector didn't think it was that big a deal - he believed her BS - thought it was good that it never got to PA etc. Of course, he doesn't know that it continued for almost 3 mos. after he knew about it.

You are just getting started with exposure.

Expose to her family and to the church.

A church is the VERY BEST setting for exposure, bar none. It's against the rules there, you can supposedly find redemption, and seek foregiveness - all under the same roof. What better place could there be?

You and OMW should do this together if possible. That ought to neuter any hook line and sinker swallowing by the pastor.

You don't do this and I'll be concluding you don't want to save your marriage afterall.

WAT

You are so afraid of losing what you have already lost, a faithful loving wife. Your wife right now is a lying, cheating WW. Is that what you are afraid of losing?

I think your problem is a fundamental one: you need to MAN UP. You are always scared, rationalizing everything, when the situation often asks you to be a MAN (or politically correct, to be a STRONG PERSON). I think you need to look deep inside yourself and ask why you do not think that you deserve to be treated with respect, and why you refuse to act in a way that shows that you respect yourself, i.e., acting to protect yourself.

Women do not respect men they can walk over. And you are not sending a definitive signal to your WW that she should respect you. You allow her to continue disrespecting you, while making a bunch of ultimatums that everyone knows you are not willing to follow through on. What kind of man allows his wife to continue attend the same church that OM goes to(Sunday school teacher or not)?

I notice that you are very good at rationalizing. 19, I think you need to grow some SPINE, if not for yourself, do it for your CHILDREN.

I know I sound harsh, but I come in peace. Like everyone else here, I just want you to give yourself the best chance of saving your M, protecting your Children, and respecting your integrity as a person.

Hello 19.

I haven't got any advise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I wish you luck with exposure to anyone you believe will make the difference so that your W can finally wake up.

You seam to be on the right way to full NC if you expose. I believe it's a very good step.

Keep strong and don't forget all you told me about saving the marriage and family.

Edited to ask you How old are your kids?

19,
Sorry this crap just keeps getting deeper for you, but I think you knew in your gut that W was still contacting OM...hopefully (and I think it's very likely) OM will cut your W off once he finds out his W knows what they've been up to..
Your W seems to be pretty deep into denial about what she is doing to you and your marriage by continuing to contact OM after promising not to. I really don't think she's thought through the ramifications of her actions...and it's so very disrespectful to you and your marriage that she has been sneaking around making him cookies, etc..yuck...kind of hard to believe that she would keep pursuing him if there has been no PA at all, or at least the possibility of one...didn't she tell you that he kissed her on the cheek once? I've found that when there is a revealation like that from a WS (kiss on the cheek) you can pretty much bet that is maybe 25% of the truth...they almost never give the whole truth unless they are busted clean

I understand that you dont' even know if you want to do Plan A or any other plan at this point, just don't make any decisions when your fresh in the hurt of these new discoveries k? Your feelings may change and if you do decide you want to save your M, it will be better for you if you try to keep the LB's to a minimum...she's already rationalizing her actions by putting all the blame on you...sounds like she needs to grow up and realize that she's an adult and in control of her own actions...I think exposing to her mother may help this come about...IMHO your kids are too young to be laying something like this at their feet though, of course it's your choice to do this or not..

Can't wait to hear what OMW has to say...hopefully it's that they are quitting that church so that you and your family won't have to...

Thanks to all of you.

Here's a question: Almost everyone said W would be furious when she found out I told OMW. I even thought she would be. Well, that was not the reaction I got from her at all. She wasn't mad. In fact, I really think her reaction was much more one of shame and embarrasment (embarrasment more than shame). She thinks it was unnecessary, blah blah blah, but she never got mad - even when I was extremely mad.

Anyone have any thoughts on why that is? It was not what I was expecting.

19, usually they are furious; sometimes they are not. It depends on their personality mostly. But we wanted to prepare you for the WORST, because most BS' find it very upsetting when their WS gets angry. I don't think it means anything other than a reflection of her personality.

WAT - Some of her family knows already. In fact, there is really only one person left to tell - her mother. As far as church, either my family or OM's family will be leaving ASAP.

Here's a Q: who should leave? The way all this came down, I honestly believe that OM started it, then backed off very quickly when I found out and then W basically pursued him.

They are both at fault - should OMW and I flip a coin?

UVA - I know your harshness is with good intent and I apprecite it. If people like you had not been harsh earlier, I wouldn't have exposed and I am very glad I did. I am not really a wus at all, I just don't know the right things to do in all this and the stakes are pretty high.

Church will be taken care of one way or another very soon. I don't want to tell my kids about this. I don't see what good that does and they don't need that to worry about.

I don't really think she has walked all over me at all. She did continue to sneak around, but I was doing everything I could to catch her - what should I do, leave?

I am just not sure what you mean by "manning up" - other than telling a few more people, what can I really do, other than getting a D?

lost_willow - my kids are 6, 12 and 15. I won't forget what I said -

this_hurts - I do think OM will cut her off.I think he already had - sort of. By that, I mean he was not calling her - it was her calling him. I honestly believe he got real uptight about it all once he knew I knew and he backed off. It will be interesting to see what OMW says. One thing W told me is that the last time she talked to OM about 12 days ago, she told him she wasn't going to call him anymore. Now, I don't believe a word she says, but it will be interesting to see if OM told OMW the same thing.

I don't know about the PA part - I really don't think that has happened based on all I know. Interesting to hear what OMW says about that too.

I am trying to keep LB's to a minimum. I guess I do want it to work - not today really, but I know in the long run I will. So I am going to try to regroup and get back on Plan A.

ML - Based on her personality and what she has said lately, I was expecting her to be real pissed. Not because she is really like that, but more because of the nature of all this and what's happened over the past few months. Also, she will see OMW again at some point - there is no way around it - and, regardless of what she thinks from my perspective, she can't want to face OMW.

But she didn't get pissed - I did.

She is also at least a little worried that OMW will tell all the other moms at school - I have to say that I love the fact that she is worried about that. That won't happen, but who cares.

Someone above said that W does not appreciate the ramifications of all this. That may be true to some extent, but I think she appreciates it a lot more than she did a couple of days ago. At least she has to tell her freinds that OMW knows....

I also think she sort of feels like a fool for keeping after OM when he wasn't returning the favor (at least that's how it appears without talking to OMW yet).

I don't understand - why is this about leaving the church instead of using the church to do its job? Is adultery poo poo'd at this church like at most others?

What am I missing here? Granted, I don't "belong" to an organized church, so I may not understand what belonging means. But if being a member doesn't include seeking help to have the "rules" understood and met, what good does being a member offer?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
WAT

WAT, I don't understand your confusion. One of them has to leave the church. They can't continue going to the same church. He doesn't need the church to tell him that.

Also, he has already TOLD his pastor and he did nothing, so he knows he isn't going to get much help there.

OK, I agree. The church was worthless in this case. It did not practice what it preaches. In this case 19 should find another church where the authoritive "morals" might just work as advertised. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can he get his money back from the collection plate?

WAT

lol! Agree, he should ask for a refund! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just talked to OMW. Nothing earth-shattering at all.

OM's version of the "story" was pretty much the same as W's with one exception:

Their versions of the night at the retreat were a little different. W says OM told her he loved her, they held hands and he kissed her on cheek. Said they discussed how they had crushes on each other. OM says he never told her he loved her, never told her he had a crush on her (that's a lie per one of my taped calls), says they never held hands and says he never kissed her on the cheek.

So, one of them is lying about that -

OM says they were never more than friends - W says it did cross the line for a short period of time - a couple of weeks. Someone is lying about that too -

Also, OMW says OM figured out the whole thing had gotten strange when she showed up at his office with the cookies - I think I believe that - again, his office is 25-30 miles from my house - not an easy drive. I bet he did wonder what was going on when she showed up there -

Any ideas?

My idea is that the OM is VASTLY minimizing the affair in order to make it appear she was pursuing him against his will. You already know he lied, 19. The OM KNEW it was wrong, which is evidenced by his failure to TELL his wife.

Did you talk about the church issue?


She should never go anywhere the OM is likely to be, 19. NEVER. Did you mean to say she can't WAIT to face the OMW? Or did you mean what you wrote? What does the OMW say about seeing your W again?

ML - First, I think you are totally right about what OM is doing - he is minimizing the A. I think OMW agrees with you about not telling her etc. I think he also did a pretty good job in talking his way around it. I don't think it is over yet, however.

On the other hand, I actually believe that since about Feb 1 or so it has been W pursuing him. I hate to admit that, but I think that is true. I think he backed off real fast when I found out - it was not a game to him anymore. W kept after it.

OMW and W are bound to see each other at some point. City where we live is pretty big (1 million plus), but it's really a pretty small town. Also, kids do go to the same school. OMW doesn't want to see her now, but she also said she wasn't really mad at her - said she feels sorry for her. Said she would probably get mad later.

And I meant that I am sure W does not want to see OMW - she's bound to be very embarrassed if nothing else.

On this call, OMW and I did not discuss church. I am not sure she appreciates what really happened like I do so she may not feel the same way. I want to give her a little more time so maybe they can leave and not me. It will probably have to be me, however.

19, have you had a discussion with your W about absolute no contact and the fact that someone is going to have to leave this church? I really do not think this is over, 19, and suspect you are going to go much further than this. By that, I mean, exposing AGAIN to the pastor and exposing to the folks we spoke about earlier.

I think your pastor needs to know that the TRUTH has now come outand that he was LIED to before. He should have an issue with your W teaching a SS class. In a normal church, she would be released from that duty, and rightfully so. That would serve as a much needed wake up call for her, I suspect.

ML - We have discussed NC again - and that someone has to leave church. Discussed it yesterday, in fact, and she agreed to it. I can't tell you how much I hate to do that.

This church is too liberal to do anything about her EA. If there was no SF, rector won't consider it a real A. Even if it was a PA, still don't think he would tell her she can't teach - not much condemnation goes on there. Of course, that is one reason why I don't mind leaving the church. Neither my W nor I is as liberal as the church is.

Why don't you think it's over? Anything in particular or just based on your experience?

Also, I think she has now had a wake-up call. She is embarrased and the thought of having to see OMW is bound to bug the crap out of her.

Here's another question for you: we have discussed NC again and she has agreed (of course, she agreed before too). How do I make my point about NC without giving an ultimatum? Any ideas?

19, here is how you make your point about nc, tell her that this is a protective boundary that you are ADAMANT she respect in order to aide your recovery. Let her know there will be SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES if contact is broken.[I don't give a RATS [censored] if she views this as an "ultimatum" - it is what it is!] If you are willing to keep her after an affair, nc is the LEAST she can do in exchange for your forgiveness.

I would print up the Four Rules of Protection and discuss with her a PLAN to restore your marriage from the damage she has inflicted. She must start rebuilding the trust she destroyed in order for your marriage to recovery.

Print this up and give it to her: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Here is a sample no contact letter that should be sent to the OM:

Dr. Harley?s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she?s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

It sounds like your "church" is very far from doing what they are supposed to be doing and were not there for you in your time of need. An affair was allowed to THRIVE under their roof, because of that.

Honestly, 19, what in the world do you get out of a church that promotes THEIR OWN AGENDA over God's? As you can see, they are more interested in their OWN AGENDA than *YOU*. Why not find a REAL CHURCH?

ML - I don't think the church is all that bad. Look at it from the rector's POV - we talked to him one time, W told him the story - mainly that W and OM talked about their feelings for each other and how they were not going to act on them .....

That was on February 3 - Rector told W he believed them - he believed they weren't going to act on it (i.e. no PA). Since then, obviously the phone calls did continue (almost all initiated by W) and there was the "cookie trip". Rector knows none of that.

Alot of people would not consider that to be an A at all - not even an EA. I know you do, and so do I. MC said it was too - flat out told W it was an A.

Like I said too, it's not a condeming type of church - I wish it were more so. Probably doesn't matter, however, since it looks like we'll be leaving.

19, I think the fact that your W and the OM successfully lied to the rector explains alot, so maybe I shouldn't judge him so harshly. But he probably should be brought up to date and informed that it is an affair and that it has continued. This church has an OBLIGATION to condemn sin, that is their JOB. If they are not doing that, they are not doing their job. And they should not have an adulteress in a position of authority in the church. Just as a wayward pastor is removed, a wayward sunday school teacher should be removed from her position of authority over children.

19,

""Here's a question: Almost everyone said W would be furious when she found out I told OMW. I even thought she would be. Well, that was not the reaction I got from her at all. She wasn't mad""

""Anyone have any thoughts on why that is?""

Not sure about the timelines here, but it sounds like she knew already and was prepared. Could a little OM birdy told her?

k

To my knowledge, OM has not talked to rector about this. If he did, rector probably believed him too.

One thing I think you do need to consider - a lot of people don't even know what an EA is or think an EA is an A. I am not one of those people, and I know you are not, but I do think a lot of people are like that. I guess a priest should know and appreciate it.

I don't really know. It is a liberal place, relatively speaking, for a church. I don't really like that aspect of it, but it is.

krusht - That is pretty much impossible (that OM told her) based on the timing of it all and the fact that I know 100% he didn't call her (unless she has a secret phone).

And it was not as if she didn't react at all, it just wasn't anger.

Personally, I think the reason is

(a) she had still been in contact with OM even though she had repeatedly promised she was not - so, she was caught - what could she really say? and

(b) I think she is embarrased now. Remember, OMW was her friend and now OMW knows she has been chasing OM.

So, I think those are the main reasons she reacted like she did. But, I don't know.

19, and you and I both know that anyone who thinks this is WRONG. PERIOD. The deeper connection in any relationship for a WOMAN is the emotional aspect, not the physical aspect. If it were JUST physical, a woman could just walk away. It is the EMOTIONAL tie that attracts the woman. So, if you encounter anyone who really thinks an emotional affair is not a REAL affair, please disabuse them of this very misguided notion.

ML -I couldn't agree with you more - but hopefully you see what I am saying. I really don't think a lot of people realize that an EA is just as bad or worse.

One detail I forgot about - so, Saturday night we're sitting in a restaurant drinking - never ordered food. I tell her I told OMW etc. and we're arguing etc. We get up to leave and I tell her I am not going home and I walk off. I actually went to a nearby bar and ate dinner and had some more .... So, she apparently drove around and looked for me - I wasn't answering the phone. She can't find me and she goes home. She called 2 friends and then called her IC.

I don't know why, but I think it's funny as he11 that she went home and called her IC on a Saturday night and talked to her for 10 minutes. I wish she had used the real phone...

I probably should not have gone home at all - but I did after an hour and half or so.

What was her response when you told her you told OMW?

I DO NOT like her IC and think she is a big part of the problem. An IC often works AGAINST the best interest of the marriage and increases your chances of divorce.

First, I really think her IC is OK - I think she has discouraged the EA from the beginning. She won't condemn her for it, but I really don't think she has done anything but discourage it. But I could be wrong. She has also told W that if we separated she thinks W would miss me and we'd get back together.

When I told W that I told OMW, if I remember correctly, she said "Why did you do that?" in an astonished tone of voice - she was not expecting it at all - then she started asking me questions and we got into it for a good 2.5 hours - and I don't mean yelling and screaming - she actually never really got mad - teared up a few times, but never really mad. I was mad and I am sure I LB'd quite a bit.

Is that what you meant by your question?

19, I hope the IC does truly help her SAVE HER MARRIAGE, rather than make herself feel good about being bad. Because more often that is what happens with your typical counselor. There are too many stories here of WS' who were led towards divorce when the marriage could have been easily saved with the guidance of a more experienced counselor. And many simply do not have a standard of right and wrong, but rather a standard of whatever feels good, do it. Hopefully, this IC is not of the latter breed, but please keep your eyes peeled.

ML - I know what you mean. I think all IC's probably try to make patients feel better about themselves, don't you think?

But, I really don't think W's is trying to make her feel good about what she has done. I know she has pointed out that OM is married etc. - I really think she has discouraged it -

I will keep an eye on it. Thanks.

19,

"Here's a question: Almost everyone said W would be furious when she found out I told OMW. I even thought she would be. Well, that was not the reaction I got from her at all. She wasn't mad""
"Anyone have any thoughts on why that is?""


Maybe because "deep inside" she was already coming out of the fog?

You say she was more ashamed and worried about OMW telling other mother's... this is facing reality of her actions.

I mean, during the time it took you to expose to OMW, she has been contacting him, he back off, you were doing plan A, she had time to start feeling ashamed, guilty and most of all silly and stupid for her actions.

One of the reasons you pointed for not exposing was that things between you too were not so bad, actually better right?

Are you sure she's not acting the way she has been because she's going thru the WS pain?
Realizing how stupid she was, that after all you're the nice husband she loves, that the "EA" was not real it was nothing, etc...

Maybe she's having a hard time admiting it to herself more then anything else?
So she tries to blame you.
Then she says it was not a EA.
She tries to contact him in an atempt to validade her actions when she can't bare the blame?
Is she in any way a bit of a too proud and stubborn kind of person? having a hard time admiting and facing their own mistakes?


How is communication between you too? Is she an open person?
How are you two doing after exposure? Talking more, more openly?

Is there any chance that she's having a hard time talking openly to you?

Hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

Maybe your W wants to get out of the mess she created but she doesn't know how, having a hard time facing herself, etc?



About OM, I believe it's obvious that he's lying, did OMW believed him?

lost - A lot of what you say makes a lot of sense. I do think W is facing reality now and it's possible this was happening before exposure - I just don't know for sure. She said that she called OM 10 days before I told her I told OMW and told him she wasn't calling him anymore. I am pretty sure she did that before too, and then started calling him again. It's hard to believe anything she says since she has lied to me for 3 mos.

I do sort of think she feels silly and stupid - I guess that's good?? She is very stubborn about admitting her mistakes - always has been. I think she also minimizes what she did so she won't have to face reality. She will never admit it was a big deal - that's just how she is.

This morning she actually did say she was mad about it -said it was just another mean thing I have done to her .... whatever.....

We're doing OK, I guess, talking some. Maybe she is having a hard time facing herself, I don't know.

I am sure she would like to get herself out of this mess - I don't think she felt that way until I told OMW, but I am sure she does now.

No doubt OM is lying to a certain extent. One thing that makes an EA harder is it's probably a lot easier to lie about - sex is real clear, emotions are not. However, he absolutely lied to her about the little physical contact they did have. I am not sure where she stands right now and whether she believes everything he said.

How are you doing lost?

Here's a question: so W tells me last night that "maybe she should call OMW" - remember, W and OMW are (were) friends - known each other for 8 years probably.

Is it good or bad that she says she may want to call her?

I guess it seems good to me since it sort of shows she is facing reality here - but is that right?

Any comments?

I think that this is an attempt on her part to minimize the situation. She's probably going to tell OMW that you're delusional yada yada. The WW sometimes tries to plant those kind of suspicions in the minds of their BS and the OP if they know them.

Did you tell OMW that you had recordings of them talking and especially the part where he DID say those things he's denied saying?? You have PROOF!

coacheswife - Not only did I tell her I had recordings, we actually listened to them together.

That being said, the specific things OM denied were not on the recordings - he denied any physical contact.

He also denied ever discussing having a "crush" on W - that is very clearly implied from the tape - W asked OM "so you are over your crush on me?" OM responded "That's not a fair question..." - he lied about that too.

I got the info on physical contact from 2 sources: 1. W told me; and 2. I heard W tell a friend about it on another call I recorded (I lost that call, however, so I couldn't play it for OMW).

She should not contact her or her H ever again except to send them the no contact letter. Complete no contact. She has done enough harm to that family and should leave them alone. The reality is that nothing short of complete nc will suffice.

I don't understand why NC should include OMW?

I understand about OM, but why OMW?

Contact with OMW allows her to stay on the periphery of OM's life. It gives her a little "fix" which feeds her addiction every time she hears about him.

19, she needs to be completely AWAY from this family altogether in order to affair proof both marriages. She needs to never be around him or his family again.

It is impossible to be completely away from them.

We are bound to run into them some and we have kids / school issues.

Any ideas in light of that? (i.e. some things I can't really change - so what would you suggest to make the best of it?)

There may be some contact you can't avoid, but I would go to EXTREME lengths to avoid any contact at all.

OK. W is starting whine more about my telling OMW - says "what good did you think that would do?" and "it was crappy for me to go do that..."

I keep telling her (a) I did it to help save our M by helping to kill the EA and helping to ensure it never comes back and (b) because OMW deserve to know

As far as the "crappy" comment, I tell her it was even more crappy for her to keep calling OM for 2 mos. and lying to me repeatedly that she wasn't and taking cookies to his office....she does say, "yes it was"

Any other ideas on responses to her comments (trying not to LB as much as I can...)

Don't try to reason with her. Do not try to refute her.

Remember, you're not dealing with a rational person. She drove 45 miles to deliver cookies.

Whenever she makes the "crappy" comments, you calmly reply, "I understand your concern."

WAT

"yes, it was crappy to have an affair with her husband. Sorry you are so upset, dear."

Then leave it at that. Like WAT said, it is a WASTE OF TIME to try and reason with her.

I will try that.

Here's another one: How should "Tough Love" fit in with Plan A. I am sort of trying to do both. I try to Plan A, but at the same time I want her to know, in no uncertain terms, I am not sure what I want right now.

I don't want to be a doormat and I want her to know that it is just as likely that I will D her as she will D me. I think she knows that right now.

The first few weeks after dday, I wasn't doing that. It was me always saying we had to work on it etc. and her saying it needed to change or she didn't want to be married blah blah blah.

After 3 weeks or so of hearing that, I said well I do too .... I know that jolted her. Not enough that she stopped calling OM, but I know it did (because I heard her tell a friend).

So, is that LB'ing?

ML - Don't worry - I've said that - although next time I will add the "sorry you are so upset dear".

By the way, she has tried to call OMW today. OMW couldn't answer, but she did see her number flash up and she called me. I don't know what W is going to tell her - W won't tell me (OMW will tell me, however. She is telling me everything, and vice versa).

Don't know what will happen with that.

19, go take a look at the lovebuster list. It isn't a lovebuster to be honest with your W. But let me point something out to you. You are angry today, but you won't be angry in 6 months. Your anger is temporary, whereas divorce is VERY permanent. If you had a good marriage BEFORE this all happened, chances are very likely that you can have a GREAT marriage if you follow this program.

Can you at least commit to a period of 12 months of really trying before you make a decision?

I really do wish you would consider counseling with Steve Harley. He can set you on the right path towards recovery. I think that both of you feel somewhat hopeless right now because you are both so confused. Steve Harley could help you here. He can do in one session what other counselors cannot do in 10 sessions.

Have yall taken the emotional needs questionaires on this website? Are you reading the marriage building material here, 19? Do you know how to make her happy?

ML - Thanks. By "program", I assume you mean MB program (meeting EN's etc.)?

I don't really think our marriage was good before the EA. From my perspective, it was OK - not great, but OK. From W's perspective, I now know it was terrible (maybe that is fog partially, but probably true to a certain extent too).

I think it could be great too. The real problem is we both have concerns now - I am pissed about the EA, the lies etc. and wonder if it's really over this time etc. She wonders whether I am going to revert back to acting like I did before EA.

W keeps saying too that while she can forgive me, she may never be able to get over it. I'm sick of hearing that and that's one reason I add in: "OK, whatever" or "I may not be able to either" I refuse to let her have the upper hand in that regard - that what's meant by "tough love" above - I'm not going to grovel for anything (don't want to be a wimpy guy or have someone tell me I'm a wimpy guy, now,
do I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't think either one of us plans to do anything soon - I think we defintely plan to work on it for at least a year.

We may be confused, but I think we also posture a lot - I know I do.

We have all the books and have read a lot from this site. We printed the questionaires a couple of months ago but never completed them.

We need to do those.

I do think I know how to make her happy to some extent - that is by not acting like I have for the past 15 years. I have been doing pretty well at that for about 3 mos. now. I guess I need to determine what her other top EN's are and try to meet them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> okok, I hear ya! I just started reading the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love and am getting quite a bit out of this book. It goes deeper than His Needs, Her Needs how emotional needs faciliate the feeling of love. If I hadn't experienced it myself, I would NEVER believe it, though. Because this has happened in my marriage just from the little I learned around here about meeting needs. And my marriage was not good at all before my H's affair. So hang in there, 19, there really is hope.

ML - if you think I'm being wimpy again, feel free to tell me - I know you would anyway. Those comments defintely influenced me to tell OMW - and I think that was a good thing to do and I'll tell you again how much I appreciate it.

I have that book and have read parts of it - I'll get back on it - I know there is hope - I am just so *&^%$#@ pissed at her that I need to try to keep in mind what I really want long term.

thanks.

Hi 19. I read over your thread every so often to see how you are doing. I'm always wishing you well. I see you are doing good with those responses and hanging tough. Keep up the good work. Seems WW is also talking to you about how she feels. Kind of helps you still where she is mentally, if she may still be inthe fog. I was wondering about this comment that I read above:


I was wondering is that b/c of how W is responding or do you just feel discouraged about trying to stay in the M?


Is this an article? If so, where do you find it?

19, just for the record, I don't believe you are a wimp. A wimp would not have taken control of the situation as you have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LLG - Thanks.

"Tough Love" is a Dobson book. It's been awhile, but the basic idea is you don't become a doormat - you don't beg, grovel, cling etc. You stay strong and hold your ground.



Both actually. Probably the former more than the latter.

Deep down, I want to stay in the M, but I am somewhat discouraged since I have recently discoverd that I have been lied to for another 2 months - there has been contact over the past 2 mos.

W's response has not been that bad (except for lies and contact) but she has pissed me off too many times with her comments like "I don't want to stay married if it doesn't change". For the first few weeks after dday, I responded with "we really need to work on this ...." - in other words, close to grovelling - not quite, but close.

At about 2.5 weeks after dday, and hearing that crap a lot, I got made and changed my response. So, I basically have responded by telling her "I feel the same way, if it doesn't change, I don't want it either...". That definitely got her attention. Not enough to stop contact, however.

This past weekend (when I told her I told OMW and I found out about the contact) I told her I wasn't sure about M at all and I'd let her know when I decided. Maybe not the best thing to say, but I said it (I had also, admittedly, had a few by the time I said that).

Thanks.

ML - I know you don't. I am really not a wimp, but I may have acted "wimpily" sometimes. It's hard to know what to do about some of this stuff and I tend to over-analyze anyway.

I hope you are right about my having taken control of the situation - I am not so sure at this point. I am defintely in more control, but I don't know about total control yet.

THsi was honset. Sounds like it got her attention.


Lol, had a little too much to drink, uh?. It sounds like you were somewhat honest. But you left off the part about how you do want the M but her comments are difficult, discouraging to hear.

Thanks for the Dobson book, title.

This was the PERFECT response, 19. Because you DON'T want it like it was before. You don't want a marriage where you feel detached and unhappy anymore than she does. You don't WANT a marriage that includes deceit and infidelity. So, I am very impressed with your response because it is meaningful and thoughtful.

Quote:
OK. W is starting whine more about my telling OMW - says "what good did you think that would do?" and "it was crappy for me to go do that..."

Of course it was crappy... she is now facing it and thinking about the consequences... Inside she feels ashamed of her actions... but then she thinks... but if you didn't tell OMW she only had to deal with you... now she lost face, there's more people knowing, and even kids will be affected by it, and she also wanders, how is it going to be from now on... church, school meetings... she can't forget what happened, she is afraid to be faced forever with her mistake.

She's being selfish but also confused I am sure, so at the same times she tries to validade in any way what she had done. I also believe she wants to call OMW to minimize the A, to know how are they doing, what did OM told his W, etc

She's also feeling rejected by OM... She can't believe she betrayed her values, betrayed you and comprimized her marriage and family for an ilusion. It's hard for her to overcome this and to face you now... She might even be realizing that all that blaming on you and your marriage before was not that real... if you are doing plan A you sure are bringing back the good memories and moments of your marriage.



19,

From our entirely different stories and from our very similar feelings I can only say that I am doing much better since I realized I wasn't really doing plan A, with the help of Tracionado and Orchid, in my thread I realized:

I was double acting, and it does not work... I was doing plan A but at the same time I wasn't.

As you might remember about my doubts on "why even try recovery" and letting angry and hate feelings take control, I was so unsure about my feelings for my H, that I become really unsure as to really wish/believe/want recovery, that I desperately needed to rationalize and think and rationalize again about any decision or action I took because (unknowingly) I wanted it to be the right decision to both options, recovery or divorce, and most of all protect myself.
Because deep inside I haven't really decided yet.

What they help me find out was that I can divorce at any time, but most important, is that I have to fully work on plan A, MB principals, and really give my H a chance.

As BS,s we desperately want WS to be in our place, feel the hurt we feel, but maybe we should also try to put ourselves in their place.

We are very hurt and we have to deal with many emotions, we have to face ourselves and accept "that in some way" we are betraying ourselves, accepting our spouses after what they did, sometimes we really feel tempted to just give up, take the easy road.

So I realized I had to TAKE the RISK, and lower my defensive armor. I don't fully trust my H, but I have to give him a chance and believe that I will some day.

In my situation, I never told my husband I was hating him, but he felt it, and couldn't bear looking at him and he started to be away from me because everytime he looked at me he felt guilty and didn't know what to do to easy my pain and worst he felt I was giving up on him.

At some point it was important he felt it even I havent told him, so he started to work harder to reassure me.

I think we both BS and WS, fear the failure of recovery, according to the situations, we fear we will never recover what we had, or that we will end up in the same not so satisfying M we had before after the dust settles down.

It was of course very important that my H admitted and told me that what he had done was wrong and that he was sorry for it. He asked me to help him out and I did.

It's important your wife ADMIT to you that what she had done was wrong.

At the same time show her you are confident you can work together to have a better M. Give her confidence and strength. Show her this is a awake up call to make you strong and have a better marriage. (this definetely made a diference for my husband)
I know it's not easy. it's probably the hard part. She has been telling herself all this time that you are the one at fault in your marriage, she justified her actions blaming you... now it's not easy for her to admit to you, she was wrong and how silly she was. But it sure will be harder if she looks at you and feel the "hate" in you.
Discussing how to deal in the future with OM and OMW, and present her solutions on how to deal with it, will be important for her to believe in the future, you can show her you are interested and considering her feelings thru your solutions, don't present them as solutions to stop them to see each other, but solutions so that both of you wont have to be faced with what happened and in constant reminder.

And just one more question: Have you two discussed the policy or Radical Honesty already?

All this takes time, and we are all different. This is what I have been thru. Maybe some of it can be present in your situation, maybe not, just another perspective.

I feel much better with myself now. I can start to feel some peace. A "storm" is coming, I don't know how this is going to end, for now I take it slowly.

I am sorry I am not such a good writer hope it makes sense.

LLG -

You're probably right, but I really don't feel like saying that right now - know what I mean?

ML - You are right, I don't want a marriage like that - not sure I want a marriage with W at all -

everything is my fault and she has never done anything wrong - know what I mean? I bet it's hard to be so *&^%$#@ perfect....

There are times when I really can't stand her - is that normal? (don't think I ever felt that strongly until this EA BS).

Yes, that is exactly how I felt after I discovered my H's affair. He disgusted me and I didn't want him to touch me. That is because my #1 EN is admiration and an affair is a HUGE lovebuster. This coupled with the fact that my feelings of love are very contingent on my feelings of RESPECT. It took me a long time to feel anything more than revulsion for him. But your feelings can come back if she begins meeting your needs and demonstrates honorable behavior again.

lost-willow - I think you are right about her facing reality now - she realizes someone else knows what she did - someone who has an interest in what she did - and you are right, now she has to deal with it forever -

I don't think I am doing Plan A well enough right now - but I have been, so maybe it is making a differnce



what do mean by "double acting"?

W has said she doesn't believe in radical honesty - says some things are better left unsaid - may need to look into it more.

W will probably never admit what she did to my satisfaction. I just have to get over that part. W never (very rarely) admits she is wrong about anything, so I can't imagine she'll ever admit it in this situtation.

I am glad to hear you are feeling some peace - I think I feel more peace sometimes too, but I am not sure it is real.

ML - That is good to hear from someone who has been there - how long do you think it takes? Don't mean exactly, obviously, but 6 mos.? 2 years? longer?

19, we went through various phases of recovery, but I would say that our marriage was pretty good at the 2 yr mark. It is was OK at the 18 month mark. I would say that is about average, but it is very contingent on the effort that both partners put into the marriage.

The biggest impediment I see in recovery is withholding facts about the affair from the BS. The ones who are honest always recover faster. The ones who withhold really struggle because trust is not restored.

ML - I don't think she is witholding facts, but I do think she is getting madder by the minute about my telling OMW (literally). Looks like her anger about exposure is coming out - it was just delayed.

Just got off the phone with her and she was pissed. Thinks I did it just out of spite. She is on her way to see her IC and I am sure she will get all wound up there.

I keep telling her I did it to end the EA - because our M cannot work if EA is not ended. She says it never was an EA, she had already decided herself to stop calling him and this would have had no influence on that decision. I respond that I think she's wrong about that, if nothing else, OM would probably not talk to you anymore after OMW knew ....

She also keeps on saying that EA was really nothing, they were just talking on the phone and were just friends - blah blah blah - .

This is going to be a great day, I can tell. I have a feeling she is going to suggest separation. IC is hung up on W's anger - anger towards me - now IC will see W as even angrier and she could suggest separation as a way to get over the anger - I think they have talked about it before ...

I have already told W I won't agree to separation.

How long do you think it will take W to get over the anger about my telling OMW?

Today is day 365 for us. 1 year of since D-day and I'd say we are fully recovered. We discuss things openly and have established an intimacy level far superior to anything we ever had before.

Usually the longer the affair the longer the recovery so, ON AVERAGE, yours should NOT take that long assuming you remain willing and she really commits to trying.

As far as "double-acting", I can't speak for the poster above but I'd say she means, acting with empathy for your wife AND at the same time not having empathy for your wife. Your actions and reactions are all mixed up becuase you are angry, sad, desparate, dejected, mad, empathetic, bitter, entitled, hopeful and vindictive ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

You are right, I don't think your Plan A is all there yet, but you are "processing" and moving towards it.

IMO, the basis of all good relationships and marriages is friendship. Through friendship you and your wife can develope intimacy. I've read somewhere that people often choose a marital partner that does the same "intimacy dance" with them. They comfortably move closer and separate in allignment with their own intimacy comfort zone. They crave more when you withdraw and withdraw when you crave more. I strongly perceive some intimacy walls coming from your wife...it's logical really...you are REALLY moving towards her so she steps back and proudly/defiantly remains withdrawn. You want to NOW discuss radical honesty in your marriage and she poo-poos it (did I just say poo-poo, man I need some sleep).

Anyway, what to do. Do some introspection about your own personal intimacy barriers and discuss them with your wife...but discuss with her as your closest friend and confidant. On the reverse side, really try to get to know your wife as deeply and closely as possible. I mean, if your relatioship might end don't you want to get in their and KNOW what's going on in that cute little noggin' of hers? Listen, listen some more, ask questions but DON'T try to "fix" anything/everything or try to educate her yourself. Allow her the safety and comfort to open up to you and SAY ANYTHING...she is your best friend afterall.

Sure right NOW, you will likely get fog babble...SO WHAT, ignore it and keep listening. She's your best friend but you are not her best friend RIGHT NOW. Divert her away from negatives if you can and avoid putting yourself down. Just tend to agree and move on. Remember, her emotional affair was MUCH more about HER, than you...so get in their deep and WATCH as SHE processes things and hopefully moves into and through Recovery. In the end, this is not a battle of "right" and "wrong"...it is a battle for your marriage and family. She may just surprise you in anywhere from 6 months to a year and fully admit she was wrong and feel so grateful to have your marriage back and intact. She will look you in the eyes and THANK YOU for standing by her when she was behaving so aweful.

Recovery is a process, not an event. Time does heal. You can not hurry it. It just takes PATIENCE and PERSEVERANCE (and some thick skin as well).

Good luck, Mr. Wondering

Her anger?

I'd guess a few more days. Who knows, when you stir the pot you often end up with a major breakthrough. Pain often equals change. Be ready for it. The all night conversation may ensue. Just guessing though. Some wives will "punish" you for weeks.

I think you should stick to the "I had a moral and ethical obligation to tell OM's Wife about her life, you were more than "just friends", you know it, I know it and she has the right to make that determination for herself as well".

Your wife would have done the same to you only she would have done it IMMEDIATELY. Us guys tend to wait, process the decision, protect our wives, maintain our privacy, etc. Woman usually expose instinctively...trust me, you would have been outed quite awhile ago if the situations were reversed.

W

Whatever you do, don't allow her to bait you into a fight over this and DON'T LOVEBUST her. Go read about lovebusters so you are certain to understand what they mean. It doesn't mean appeasement at all costs. She will try to bait you into a fight to divert her from her guilt and discomfort by making you the bad guy.

So, just be sweet and tell her you are sure sorry she is so upset.

If she suggests a seperation [and this is a pretty common suggestion from counselors who know nothing about infidelity] just tell her you don't want to seperate, but cannot stop her if she wants to leave. Be sure and let her know that she can't take the kids and can't take your family money to do so. She would have to get a job. Don't fight, just let her know - without lovebusters - that she is free to go but you won't help her destroy your family and will protect your finances and your children.

If her IC tells her that exposing to the OMW was wrong, then that removes all doubt, in my mind, that this C is useless and inexperienced.

ML and Mr. - Just talked to her again and she is really pissed. She actually hung up on me. Said what I was saying "is no apology" and hung up.

I had just read ML's post above, so I told her I was sorry she was so upset. She said I didn't think about the consequences to the kids and the moms at school of my telling OMW. My obvious reply was "you are the one who wasn't thinking about the consequences when you did what you did ...." I probably shouldn't have said it, should I? I couldn't resist. What a *&^%$ - what a stupid thing to say.

For some reason she thinks OMW will tell every mom at the kids school. That is what she is hung up on now - not the fact that she has lied to me repeatedly for the past 2 mos.

I tried to call her back and she wouldn't answer. Left her a long voice mail telling her I am sorry she is upset, sorry she thinks I did it for spite and reiterated the real reasons I did it - (a) to end the EA so we can work on our M and (b) OMW deserved to know. I sort of hope she will play the voice mail to the IC

I then said I was not sorry I did it - I probably shouldn't have said that either, should I?

It will be interesting to see what her IC does tell her.

So, I guess I did let her bait me into a fight, didn't I? Probably LB'd a little too, didn't I?

19, since your wife is stuck on this idea she and the OM were only friends, perhaps you should invest in a book entitled Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. It would give you a lot of information about how adultery develops from inappropriate friendships. I doubt she would read it right now, but you might leave it sitting around and, perhaps in time, she might just open it and begin to understand.

Also, while you need to avoid LB's, Plan A is not a plan for you to become a doormat. It is, among other things, a time where you establish boundaries for behavior. Here's a thread that discusses that:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=&PHPSESSID

In the "Most Popular Links" table on the upper right side of this page, there is a link to "Love Busters." It's good reading and will help you to learn what one is and how to prevent them from cropping up in your interaction with your wife. Hang in there, 19. The road is going to get bumpy.

Longhorn - Thanks. I have heard of that book - I think I will get it. W won't acknowledge they were more than friends, so maybe that would be helpful.

Thanks.

So W went to see IC today. Hasn't suggested separation yet.

Of course, this morning, W is royally pissed at me for telling OMW.

IC tells W that I did it to take control - that it was not about her or our M, but about me. That I felt powerless and I needed to take control. I have told W that is not it at all - I did it to end this EA for good so our M will have a chance.

W says it didn't work and wouldn't work. Says she decided on her own not to call OM 5 days before I told OMW (of course, I have heard that before). Said she would only stop when she decided to stop. They were just talking on the phone - not having sex ....

W says I "won the battle, but lost the war" - I said "Well, if I had lost this battle I would have lost the war too....."

Any thoughts on all that -

Excellent!! It's working!


YES!!! Double EXCELLENT!!

She's so fogged up she won't remember ANY of this later!!


And how do you know that?

Because your wife said so????

>snort<

WAT

I hope you are right - I am not as convinced as you are. Why is it good that she is now mad?

I hope there is fog (so there is something for her to come out of) - but I am not so sure about that either - I think it may just be her. How can you tell if there is fog?

I don't think W would lie about what IC said - only because before she went to IC she was saying that I told OMW out of spite for W - I sort of think that is worse than trying to get control, so not sure why she would want to change unless IC really said it. Also, it sounds like something IC would say.

Not looking forward to going home tonight. I have a feeling it is going to be a looooong night and I am going to have to struggle not to LB - because I really want to.

Well, the IC is not a psychic and does not know why you told the OMW. Your reasons are very sound and you don't have to justify yourself. Nor is she CARNAC the magician who can read minds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your W is angry because you have interfered with her affair and brought the consequences to her door. That is GOOD.

Just calm down, 19, and remember what I told you about not letting her bait you into a fight. You should also not allow her to make you the bad guy here. It is not a lovebuster to refuse to take responsibility for her mistakes. All of her discomfort stems from HER AFFAIR and nothing else.

SMILE and be calm. It will blow over.

p.s. if the IC had a shred of decency herself, she would have advised your W - or YOU - to confess the affair to the OMW. The OMW has a RIGHT to know that your W is a dangerous person who is not to be trusted.

Why was she not concerned with getting this news to the OMW? How did she suggest that the OMW find out?

ML - Thanks. So when she starts spouting this crap again tonight, should I just stick to what I have been saying? (i.e. did it to end A, and be sure it's ended, so we can work on M?).

Do you think it is a LB for me to say what you just said: i.e. all of her discomfort stems from what she did and nothing else? I have, of course, already said that several times.

Of course, I guess all should be said in a calm loving way? (that will be hard to do)

The thing that really pisses me off is that in all the conversations today, she steers clear of the fact that she has lied to me for another 2 mos. She turned a 3 week EA into a 3 month EA - at least. Can I say any of that? or should I just be quiet at this point?

I'm pretty calm - I don't really care at this point. She is so full of ****** it's coming out her ears -

19, yes, I would just keep saying what you have been saying and let her know that you are sorry she is upset about being exposed. However, her discomfort stems from her behavior and nothing else. The OMW had every right to know.

Smile and leave the room if she keeps yammering about it.

I don't know how the IC felt about OMW knowing or who should tell her - of course neither MC nor my IC really said anything either - I've only been to my IC 3 times, however (only 2 times before I told OMW).

Interestingly, W's IC actually had an A herself in the past. Ended up divorcing her H. Told W it was a bad marriage that needed to end anyway.

To give IC a little credit, she did try to convince W not to go on with EA. I don't know exactly how much, but I know she did some.

So how do I know if this is fog? or can I know?

Let me assure you, this is fog. As you can see, she is using no REASON and is infuriated that you a) caused her embarrassment and b) cut off her path to the OM. She is using CLASSIC fogbabble of a newly busted WS.

Do you realize that she is now REALLY cut off from the OM for the first time? Remember when we told you she was NOT in withdrawal? This is why. Not only do you have to deal with her anger over ruining her affair, but you can expect to see some withdrawal symptoms.

I am betting that she has TRIED to contact the OM and he has refused her contact. That may be what has brought this delayed fury on.

That is an interesting point (feel sort of stupid for not thinking of it myself). This morning is when she got pissed. I know that she was in the store where she uses phone a few hours after she first started acting mad. I bet you are right. I'll have to call OMW tomorrow ....

I don't know if she was in there yesterday. But she definitely could have been.

Of course, she may not really think she is cut off until he does refuse to talk. She told me earlier today that she would stop when she decided to (and that she actually made that decision about 2 weeks ago) and nothing else would make her stop.

You can imagine what I thought of that comment.

ok, if she is not intending on stopping contact, then make a suggestion that you call OM and OMW right now and have a meeting. She can explain all this to the OMW. You can drive her over there right now. I am serious about this, 19.

I have a feeling you are going to have to do some more exposure to stop this affair. Don't tell her you will do this, though.

ML - I think she already has stopped calling, actually. I think she stopped about 5 days before I told OMW. (am I being naive).

I also think (maybe naive again) that OM will blow her off now.

Per OMW, he was disturbed when she showed up with the cookies.... it's not like his office is right around the corner - it's a good 45 min away in a suburb town. I sort of believe that - the "OW" shows up at his office which is in a small town.... If he acted that way, she could probably tell and that's why she may have called him next day and said she wasn't calling him anymore - she says she did that - but I don't know.

Plus, since OMW knows, I can't imagine he'd risk it unless it's a bigger deal than I think - and if it is, then I don't care...

I think she says that to be defiant - to say - you didn't make me stop talking to my "friend" - I did because I wanted to...

thanks

19, I would not take seriously anything the OM told his W. He is apt to try to spin it in a way that makes himself look like the pursued. I sort of doubt that your W chased him with absolutely no encouragement. It may be true, but you can't take the OM's word for that.

I suspect that contact has ended, but I think you would still do well to call her bluff the next time she says this and tell her you can set up a meeting with the OM and the OMW to discuss her intention to continue contact. That might cool her jets a bit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"Per OMW, he was disturbed when she showed up with the cookies"

HA-HA - Of course he told his wife he was disturbed when your wife showed up with the cookies. He is trying not to get thrown out on his a**.

When caught, they all make the same claims, that they were the innocent one, pursued by the bad lady. YUCK.

Believer, he was just a poor innocent lamb who was scared of that craven VIXEN who showed up at his door! Poor fella! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The only problem with that idea is that she might agree to a meeting - she wants to talk to OMW anyway, I know she likes to talk to OM, so ....

I don't really want that - I wouldn't want to do that - I think I would have to hit OM if I got that close to him .... I am sort of kidding, but not entirely - he's a smug pos

W's problem is that nothing has ever been her fault in her entire life - even her kindergarten teacher once told her "sometimes it is your fault..." - she didn't listen

How are things going tonight, 19?

Yep, Mel. Reminds me of my WH. He was trying soooo hard, but the OW kept showing up at his door nekkid.

But sounds like OM is backpeddling and trying to save himself. He will probably steer clear of 19's wife.

OK, ML and Believer, make me feel naive again - I am not a naive person at all, but I don't always get all of this .... some of this is even pretty obvious

on the other hand, I sort of believe it - only because OM has called W 2 times since Feb 1 - literally - but I guess you are right, who knows what he was telling her on phone - (of course, I wanted to believe there was NC too)

And I didn't mean he was innocent - just that I do bet he was shocked when she showed up out there

thanks for giving me continous reality checks - I need it.

Fine so far - of course W didn't get home until 8:00 - now she is on computer in den looking up chest pain - says she is having it - and I am in bedroom talking to you -

don't mean to be petty about chest pain - just dont really believe its a big deal

here she comes -

What do you think she is doing on the computer? Does she communicate with the OM on her computer? Is she communicating with anyone on the computer?

It's probably panic attacks, not chest pains. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Is your wife on AD's? If not she should be.

By double acting I mean that I was in Plan A but not fully in plan A. Why? because even when trying to be in plan A, I was also acting like preparing my self for a divorce, which I still believe might not be such a bad idea, but, I have to take the RISK and try to be fully dedicated to our atemtp to R,

Ok... was just reading MrWondering reply... that's exactly what I mean by "double acting"


My H said the same thing about Radical Honesty - Took me too much to get him to understand it, at the time we were still on the "tell me All that happened "and "why" issues.

Took him so long that I realized I would be much better without him, so long I really started to hate him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He now says he's totally honest, How can I tell? I can't trust him.
I believe he's trying to be honest, but I know, and feel, not totally, he's not lying just afraid to talk... It takes time.

I am still waiting on the "why" he did it.

RADICAL HONESTY is the base to rebuilt any strong relationship.

I am giving it all some time, fighting my anger and hate feelings, trying to get to him and recover our intimacy.

It's really hard. But I have to stick to my decision of trying recovery, and look at it like a task or a big project I need to work very hard to achieve.

--------

From your last developments, your W looks just like a spoiled selfish person.. a WS!

Don't give her much attention, she's just desperate that she has to admit her mistakes, and well, I bet even tho she says she had decided to stop calling OM, she must have tried to call him recently, that's why she's so upset. Besides, she wants to know what did OM said to his W, how are they doing, etc. She might also be refusing to herself that he just walked away from her that easy.

You have great advise here on how to respond to that anger. Good luck. Stay strong as you have always been.

ML and Beauty - I don't think she communicates with OM on computer - I am 99% sure - I think she really was looking up chest pain - some nurse told her she should go to doctor about it so it worried her

I think you are right in that it could be panic attacks -

yes, she is on AD's. She has been for about 5 years.

I am too for that matter - but I just started in late February. Didn't really want to, but it's part of my efforts to change

Anyway, very little discussion last night - which was fine with me.

lost - I think I have been "double acting" too. It's hard not to. I also think you are right in that maybe you do have to just take a risk if you want to have a chance to work out your M. I like your analogy to a big project.

The hard part for me, and it sounds like for you too at least to a certain extent, is deciding what we want after all that has happened. At times I am really not sure and like you there is some hatred.

I am hoping W's anger about exposure will just fade away - and you are right about the "spoiled selfish person" - but then again, "they were just friends talking on the phone".

Stay strong yourself, I guess this will end someday - one way or another - or maybe not.

ML - Here's a good one for you: I call W a little while ago and ask her if it's a nice day outside (I can see out my window, but haven't been out since 8 or so so I don't know how warm/cold etc.).

W says it would be a great day if my life weren't in shambles.

I asked her why and she said you know why.

And that was it. She didn't go on to blame me at least. Pretty funny if you ask me.

Here is another: Saturday right after I tell W that I told OMW, I ask her: "Have you talked to OM since Feb 21?", Reply: "I don't want to answer that." Have you met with OM since Feb 21?" Reply: "I don't want to answer that."

Obviously, it didn't take much for me to convince her to fess up, but what a stupid thing to say. I think her IC told her to say something like that. Makes me mad just to think about it......

19, It's amazing isn't it. You're to blame for the way she now feels. *rolleyes* One day she may look back on that and wonder what she was thinking. I hope so. It makes me mad too, 19 her saying I don't have to answer that. She IS MARRIED TO YOU. It shows she just hasn't got a clue what she's done.

I know you guys don't think the OM is telling any sort of truth but I get a real gut feeling over and over again that he was definitely interested, it was fun, it was exciting but when it started to get out of hand he didn't want to pursue it. He probably WAS horrified when the cookies turned up.

Everything is screaming that at me.

19, Honestly I guess we all need TIME.

I think your're really being a good husband and your're doing it all correct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I trully hope in a near future she will adimt it and admire you for it.
Even your kids, not knowing, have all the reasons to be proud of the stronger man you will be after all this, they can only benefit from the better Marriage your fighting for.

Just continue to be strong, dont let the hatred feelings take over. I believe you'll get rewarded.

I am now starting to understand what all the kind and more experienced people over here offten advice us, look at the future, that's where we have to focus if we want to get out of our present stage. We have to believe we will get there. Nice words I know... not so easy to act upon them, but we have to try. Not the near future, but a year or two from now.

The more irrational, fog and selfish comments maybe the more silly she will feel later. Maybe they are the reason we one day we will be able to forgive them, because they are just that, irrational. Deep inside we know it's not really them saying it.

I still believe your wife is just trying to find a way to get out of this without her pride and honor damaged. This is all about her, and she's really having a hard time admiting it to you. You have to find a way to get to her.
Radical Honesty?

I have been thinking...this is just an idea...

But do you think a letter would help her lower her stubborn defenses?
Something to kick her and make her think...

The only way I got my husband to really start talking openly about what happened was after i send him this letter (I re-wrote it according to us) .

Like a break on the "current emotions" and actions?

A letter where you will be TOTALY open about everything, your feelings, your marriage before, that you can "ïn some way" understand her actions, how it was possible for her to fail, where you show her without "pointing or blaming" at her what you expect from your future but where you need her to be totally honest not only to you but to herself? A chance for her to finally admit it all? To finally tell you her true feelings on all this? To be radical honest?

Give her your soul in that letter, reminder of all the good moments and maybe even tell her why you admire and love her. (though part I know)
Show her how happy you believe you can be, if she finally admits to you everything.

This is the letter posted to me by Bigkahuna:
-------------------------------------------
The following is a letter written by a BS to his FWW. Let him read it.

Joseph's Letter
I want to share a beautiful example of a letter one man wrote in his effort to get his wife to answer his questions. This was originally posted on my BAN Message Board before it was closed. While I didn't keep any of the messages posted on that board, this was so exceptional that I got Joseph's permission to include it in "Peggy's Forum" so it could continue to be accessed by people who didn't read his original posting.
So I'm including it here as a clear statement of the "need to know," as well as a clear explanation of why you ask the questions:

"To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
---------------------------------

Do you think it could help in some way?

I think the most relevant in this letter is the fact that the BS is being extremely honest and totally open, not accusing the WS, just sharing and explaining his position.

Do you think she would listen to you this way?

I would also add to your letter a Harley's definition "What's an affair" even if she already read it.

You have to write a whole new letter to your situation... What do you think?

KiwiJ - I actually think you are exactly right. I do think he was interested. I think it was a little game for him and I do think he liked W, maybe had a crush on her, maybe more,- maybe hoped for some SF on the side, who knows?

But, I think when I found out what was going on in early Feb, he knew it had gotten out of hand and didn't want to pursue. She kept it up - she says "just friends" at that point (which I know is BS) and I think you are right - he was shocked when she showed up with cookies. I also think she could probably tell and knew she was making a fool out of herself.

Now, many on here don't agree with that - they say WS's will say all that to minimize. I do agree with that, but I sort of think this actually may be true here. But, I guess none of us knows for sure.

Guess what she said this morning? I said "I love you" as I was leaving for work. She said "You sure have a funny way of showing it ..." I said "So do you". Where does the nerve come from?

>Where does the nerve come from?

Gallbladder.

Paugh!

You are doing so well 19! I'm so proud of you. Keep being kind. It's going to take some time before the enormity of what she CHOSE to do hits her smack upside the head. When it does, she's gonna hurt bad. Keep that in mind also....it's a crucial time for BOTH of you....and that time is coming. I can feel it.

Kiwi, does 19's WW remind you a little bit of Squid? She does me...right down to the tips of her little toesies.

- Kimmy

lost - Thanks. You make a great point about the future. You are right - the present is not good and the future is all we really have to work for. I try to think of that sometimes, but I think I have forgotten over the past couple of weeks. Thanks for reminding me.

What I have tried to keep in mind through all this is where I want to end up. I try to keep this in mind as my male ego wants me to do things that I would ultimately be sorry I did (one reason I waffled so long on exposure).

So, I am trying to do that.

As far as the letter idea, I think it's a great idea, but I have already done it. I wrote her a very nice letter a few days after dday (before I ever read this website). I told her how I felt, how I understood what happened and how I wanted us to work. Then, I actually offered to let her go with OM if that's what she really wanted and I would make it possible financially so she could live in the same way for a while - my point was very clear - I would rather be divorced than have this crap go on behind my back. (which is still entirely true). So, I was trying to remove the financial impediment and let her do it if she wanted to. Obviously, she didn't, but she continued to lie and talk to him for another 2 months or so - all behind my back.

So letters are a good idea, but I've tried that and it didn't do much.

Thanks.

Have you had a discussion about the church situation yet?

Dealan - Thanks. Maybe she will wake up - of course she keeps on saying they were "just friends". Occasionally she'll say maybe for a day or 2 it was more, but they are "just friends" - that bugs the crap out of me and, of course, makes it hard to be nice.

I hope you are right. I think she may already be hurting. I can't tell for sure, and she'll never tell me. Just so you know, in 18 years, not sure she has ever admitted she was wrong about anything - I don't see her starting now.

Of course she did tell me yesterday her life was "in shambles"

ML - We've discussed it some. Have not definitively done anything or discussed it in detail.

Changing churches is not easy and right now is probably the worst possible time to do it - for me - not for her. I am president of a men's group for my state - not just my church, but the whole state. I can't get out of that (and I don't want to - I wanted it and I worked hard to get it).

Because of that, I can't change denominations right now - and even changing churches in the same denomination is really complicated by that - it's over in August.

So, I know we need to get out of there (or OM and OMW do), I am just trying to figure out how and when etc.

I know you won't like that answer.

Is the OM involved in the church at all? What about having this discussion with the OMW and explaining to her how imperative it is for one of them to leave the church? If she understands that your W and her H cannot see each other at church, lest you will be dealing with this over and over and again, perhaps she would be willing to leave the church.

At worst, maybe the answer is that your W find another church now and you join her in August. I am getting the feeling that you want to skip this step so you won't rock the boat. Trust me, you don't even want to entertain that notion. You will pay dearly if you do.

You are right in that I would like to skip this step - but, not because I don't want to rock the boat (I've already turned the boat over!), but rather because I really don't want to leave - while there are things I don't like about it, I have lots of friends there etc. and changing would be starting over - it's a pain. I also have another commitment there through 2006 - I can blow that one off, but I hate to.

On the other hand, I know it has to be done - by one of us - and it's gonna happen. I am not going to see that pos every Sunday

19, the long term affairs that I have seen over the years resulted from not taking the no contact step seriously. The folks who have skipped this step always live to regret it. Because they didn't want to make any sacrifices, they ended up dealing with an on-again, off again affair for years. At best, they continually had the affair rubbed in their face for years. And of course, they all thought the affair was "over."

Let me give you this analogy. This would be like sending an alcoholic into the bar every week, setting a beer in front of him and telling him he can't have it. He sits there and stares at that beer every week but he doesn't touch it. He thinks of nothing but that beer and becomes obsessed with it. It is all he thinks about because he has to look at it every week.

When the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity, he grabs the beer and is off another binge. This happens over and over again over the years.

This is what you are facing if you stay in the same church with them, 19.

Ya know - if you'd expose it in the church, OM and OMW might willingly leave, assuming they're hypocrites. If they're not hypocrites and do not leave, the church is instantly available to help all involved using the built in processes.

I still fail to understand why you won't use the tools available yo you.

WAT

Just had a lengthy call with W - really got nowhere - talked about the same things we've been talking about for the past weeks and months. Pretty much what always happens when we talk about R.

Is it normal to get nowhere with these discussions? is it normal for where we are right now?

What do I need to do to try to break us out of this? Should I keep trying and just give it time - maybe to get her out of withdrawal if she is in it?

Any ideas?

19, there is not a whole lot you can do while she is in withdrawal, except to be WILLING to meet her needs and avoid lovebusters.

My greatest concern for you right now is potential contact at church that will INTERFERE with her withdrawal.

Outside of that, there is nothing you can really do to break you out of this pattern. It might be helpful to post one of your conversations and let us see if there are any patterns of communication that we can help you overcome. Some of the folks here are VERY good at spotting problems like that. I AM NOT.

Yes you are, Mel.

All ya gotta do is find a pattern of these letters:

b l a h
b l a h
b l a h

m e
m e
m e

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So do you think she is in withdrawal?

There are definite patterns - we talk about what she did and what I did, what she did and what I did.....

We talk about how bad I was for 15 years (and she was not as bad) - how she had a crush on OM for 2 days or so and then they were just friends - about how she had to call him since I told her she couldn't - about how I have over reacted to all of this and shouldn't have told OMW (this part is new, of course) - about how I am talking to a bunch of "kooks" on this site (her words) - and it goes round and round and round .....

and I usually do throw a few LB's in there too - I can't help it

Nope. Not withdrawal.

Foglatin.

Do you see the blah, blah, blahs?

And the me, me, mes?

Pure alien speak.

WAT
----------------
Kooks R Us.

>and I usually do throw a few LB's in there too - I can't help it


Yes you can. You did this much and you've learned SO much....YOU WILL CONTROL YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT'S THE ONLY THING YOU REALLY CONTROL. You cannot control her. But you can control your reactions to her.

And WAT's right. She's still so froggy that I'm surprised she's not turned green by now.

- Kimmy

How do you all know she is foggy? (and not in withdrawl?)

Bear in mind that I have to admit that I have been a [censored] a lot over the past 15 years - I don't deny it. I think she has over done it to a large extent, but it is true to a certain extent too. So, she is not making it all up. Just making it worse.

Also, I am not so sure that she is not telling the truth about the EA - I don't know.

I'm confused, 19. You've done some good work on busting up this adultery, but you're willing to risk your marriage so you can keep your men's group presidency? Please don't tell us you can't step down from that position. There's no elected or appointed post in the world a person can't resign from.

I could step down if I wanted to, but I don't want to do that.

I can change churches without stepping down, it just complicates it.

>but I don't want to do that.

So you're saying that your WANTS supercede your marriage's needs?

Just trying to get it clear in my head.

I guess it sounds that way - but -

I don't have to step down in order to change churches - I can do both, it's just a complicating factor -

why do you think she is stil foggy? (and not in withdrawal?)

19, what you don't seem to grasp is that the MB principles are a collection, a mosaic, of actions on your part, changes in attitudes, and enforced boundaries...of which NC is one. It's not a menu where you can select some of the actions to do from column A, change an attitude here or there in column B, or set only a boundary or two and decline to work on others. Frankly, if you don't do something about the church and NC, and do it soon, you are jeopardizing your marriage's recovery.

Good luck, 19. I regret saying it, but I think you're going to need all the luck you can find.

Your description of what she discussed is classic foglatin - blame shifting, rationalizing, justifications.

WAT

what if some of the blame shifting and justification is actually true - just made out to be worse than it really was?

19,

Why are you arguing if it is foglatin, babble or not??

Could I suggest marriage counsleing?? A marriage counsler that is pro-marriage and outside your church?

The MC can direct the conversations and steer them away from the same old discussions and toward the root of the matter. The MC can ask questions of you and W to get to the bottom of the dealeo.

You two speaking to each other is just ingraining the arguements.

IMHO,

k

19, do you really think that her excuse that "I only called the OM because you told me not to" is a rational explanation for carrying on an affair? Do you really think that anything in your marriage was to blame for her affair? C'mon, lets get real here. There is NEVER a valid reason for having an affair. Having an affair is not the answer to an unhappy marriage. That is just nonsense.

She is doing exactly what EVERY newly busted WS is doing: she is blameshifting and rationalizing bad behavior. She is rewriting history in order to make you the BAD GUY instead of herself.

Because that's what froggy people do....they blow it up bigger than it was...AND WANT TO DWELL ON IT FOREVER INSTEAD OF FACING WHAT THEY'VE DONE!!!!!!!

I agree with ML. She's using the 'ol "the best defense is a good offense" strategy. Very common among active WS's.

I am not a liar by nature. I'm very open and honest. But, during my A I was a consummate liar. Not to mention an Emmy-worthy actress. I was stunned at how easy it was to deflect my H's attention from my behavior and make him feel guilty about his. (I can't tell you how ashamed I am to admit that....even after 12 years.)

She's trying to deflect from her A activity (past, present and future) by pointing at your "shortcomings". Do NOT let her distract you, 19.

Lori

ML - I agree with you - but - I do think my part in our M helped make her vulnerable to the A - isn't that part of it?

Some of what she is saying she was saying before the EA - just not as specific and not as bad.

And while I agree that she is the bad guy - I think I may be too - or (and please answer this honestly) - do you think I believe that now just because she has told me that so much lately? (maybe I am being wimpy)

19, please just drop the notion that you had ANYTHING to do with her affair. YOU DIDN'T. Like atpeace pointed out, this is just a manipulative diversion. You are not responsible for something over which YOU HAD NO CONTROL. You had NO CHOICE, therefore, NO RESPONSIBILITY. She must be made to understand this. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR AN AFFAIR.

Now, you are probably FIFTY PERCENT responsible for the state of the marriage. But guess who is responsible for the OTHER fifty percent? 3 guesses and the answer is NOT Santa Claus! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

krusht - thanks. I am not arguing about whether it's fog - I am trying to figure it out - I guess I hope it is, but I am not so sure.

We already go to MC and I am not sure he's helping that much - he's definitely pro marriage - but I am not sure he's getting us on track. We only go every other week - maybe that's not enough - he's expensive.

p.s. I have no doubt there were problems in the marriage before the affair, however, you can EXPECT a newly busted WW to EXAGGERATE your crimes in a way that portrays herself as the "victim." This way she can divert the blame to YOU.

However, just keep telling yourself this: THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.

Like our first MC told my wife at our first session...

"You're right...[BS] may have done things in your marriage over the years that made you unhappy. But he didn't force you to be unfaithful. You made that choice on your own. The sooner you stop trying to blame him for your actions, the sooner you'll both be able to start fixing your marriage."

BTW...my WW (at the time) HATED this. The counselor was dead on the money...so of course my WW couldn't stand going to see her. Luckily, the fog started clearing due to other actions we were taking, so when we did go to another MC, it was effective.

Stop taking the blame for anything here. Let your wife know clearly that YOU didn't choose to do this...she did. As far as the prior state of your marriage...what did SHE do to attempt to correct the situation? Did she ask you to work on things? Try bringing in a counselor or someone who could help you both work on things? Did she do ANYTHING to improve the situation herself? Did she even tell you what was wrong, clearly and point blank so that you could do something about it?

so isn't the state of the marriage at least partially a cause of the A?

and don't get me wrong, I don't think I am responsible, but I do think the state of the marriage contributed to making her vulnerable.

I agree with atpeace too - W is as good at diversion as anyone alive - she is an expert -

I think I am just going to try to quit talking about it with W and see if we can move forward - all we do is go round and round ..... you think that's a good idea?

also, I read an email W sent a friend this week - she actually wrote: "what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive .... one of my friend's wife now hates my guts ..." (this friend knows about EA - or at least W's version of the "friendship")

The cause of the affair is YOUR WIFE'S decision to have an affair. PERIOD. Your wife is just as responsible for the state of the marriage as you.

Ask her: "is there EVER a valid excuse for having an affair?"

at peace (and anyone) - so, when she tries to distract me and deflect my attention (like you did) should I stick to talking about the A and what she did? (and not let her get me off track?)

she always says: OM is not the issue - the issue is our M and how you have treated me for the past 15 years .... I usually turn it back around when she says that - usually say, well, that may have been true 3 mos. ago, but that's not all there is to it now at all

I think she is mad at herself for changing the dynamic of our M where I actually have a valid complaint.

should be a great weekend ....

WOW, she actually says with a STRAIGHT FACE that an AFFAIR is "not the issue." I beg to differ. Even so, affairs are not the solution to marital problems.

Ask her: "is there EVER a valid excuse for having an affair?"

Owl - She didn't do much. I suggested MC. Not her.

And no, she never clearly pointed it out - "point blank" - even when given a couple of golden opportunities to do so - in connection with counseling before the A - she didn't do it.

thanks

I will try that next time it comes up - here's what her immediate response will be: "It wasn't an A"

then we'll have to go there .....

but I am going to try it anyway - maybe tonight -

Hmmmm...good question. For us, trying to discuss my A with me did no good while I was IN the A (and any contact, not just physical, constitutes continuation of an A, IMO). I wasn't gonna be open and honest about it, no matter what H said at that point. I knew in my heart I was dead wrong, but I acted as if I was the victim in the whole situation.

Without a whole lot of conversation, my H made it perfectly clear that he knew I was having an A and made it perfectly clear that it was unacceptable. He Plan A'd me but was very clear about not accepting my A any longer. His Plan A did not include acting like a door mat.

Since your wife's A has not been admitted and may be on-going in some form or other, relationship talks may not bea be very productive for you right now. IMO, your energy would be better spent on completely killing the EA and getting NC. At this point, trying to reason with her is going to feel like you're banging your head against the wall. If the A really IS totally over now, she will eventually -- little by little -- be more amenable to HONEST discussion about your relationship. Meanwhile, just show her that you've changed by daily living the life of a changed man. Don't give her any ammo to bang you over the head with. Avoid LB's.

Until she's ready to be open and honest, perhaps you should stick with general comments...?: "I realize that our marriage wasn't great, and I am sorry for my contribution to the breakdown of our relationship. I have changed/am changing, and I believe that we CAN recover our marriage and be a happy family. I intend to do everything I can to keep my family intact."

Maybe some of Orchid's reverse babble would be in order, here, since she's trying to twist things around and re-write and/or exaggerate history. Have you looked at her thread about rev. babble? Good stuff!

I'm sorry, 19, but I'm not much of a pro at advising how to work the MB concepts...even after 4 years here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You've been getting excellent advise from ML and others so far. Pay very close attention. They definitely know what they're talking about!

Lori

19 - let me try this:

Think of garden variety affairs - those not "caused" by personality quirks or other psychobabble mental issues - are sorta like the fever of a marriage disease.

Re-read the background info on this site or in SAA. Yes, the poor state of the marriage - the disease, usually due to poor performance by both partners, creates the fertile environment for an affair to occur. It's an opportunistic infection.

But your wife took the step to infect the wound. She was the opportunist.

Make sense?

Own your portion of the prior poor state of the marriage. But do not think for a minute that any of your portion "caused" the affair.

Also, do not harp on this to your wife right now - or ever. Do not try to hold a mirror up to her face. She has to do this on her own. You trying to do it will only make her recoil more so.

WAT

Well, last night was pretty much a disaster. W and I went out with another couple and we fought almost the whole time (the other couple knows what is going on with us).

Lots of LB's going both ways.

It was my idea to go out and that was not my plan. I was trying to have a fun night and not think about all this. I don't remember exactly what started it, but I think W made some crappy comment, I responded and it went from there ... we were drinking too (me more than W) and that made it even worse.

This morning W had the nerve to say something to the effect that my telling OMW has caused a problem for OMW's kid. I replied, no, your A caused this - not my telling someone about it. She then said, well, your actions - telling OMW, also had consequences. I left the room when she said that.

I think I need to just quit talking about the R and A altogether - I have tried that, but W brings it up in some form or another - she asks me a lot "have you talked to OMW? when was the last time you talked to her" - so it's hard to not talk about it when she brings it up -

I think I need to avoid discussing it totally - I don't seem to be able to talk about it without LB's.

Any ideas?

hmmmm...my bullcrap alarm just went off full force when I read this:

she asks me a lot "have you talked to OMW? when was the last time you talked to her"

This is not a good sign because it usually means that:

a) she is trying to determine if you ARE still in contact with the OMW, which means this is a great concern to her for a specific reason. The fact that she is concerned about this should be ALARMING to you because it usually means she is or is trying to resume contact

AND/OR

b) she could be trying to make you feel guilty for busting her so that you will not continue to contact the OMW for the reasons I gave above.

Either way, I would advise you STRONGLY to stay in touch with the OMW and to make sure you W KNOWS that you fully intend to do so. Let her know that you will continue to contact OMW, and vice versa, until both are assured the affair is over.

Don't allow her to manipulate you into feeling guily about exposing her because she will use it as a weapon against you.

But I do agree that you should back off from relationship talks right now. She is very irate that you have interfered with her affair. So it will do no good to get baited into a fight.

Lay off the lovebusters, ok?


"I would have had nothing to tell her if it were not for your affair. Sadly, you put me in that position, dear. "

Thanks ML.

I am going to just quit talking about R now as much as I can - W has even admitted that we do a lot better when we don't talk about it. Of course, that was before I told OMW.

I don't know if she is really trying to bait me into a fight, but she ends up doing that. I don't bring up anything and then she'll make a comment "have you talked to your friend, OMW today?" We usually go from there.

She does know that OMW and I are in contact. Talked to her 3 days this week and plan to keep doing so.

I really don't think she is trying to resume contact, but who knows.

I think she asks me that because she is trying to find out what we are talking about. Also, I do think she is embarrased to a certain extent about it all.

Here's a question for you: last night one of W's friends said she wants to talk to me about all this - wants to have lunch this week - anything wrong with doing that? (and I know she'll tell W whatever I tell her ....)

What do you think she wants to talk about? Is she going to waste your time defending your W's affair and chastising you for being satan incarnate for the past 15 years?

I don't think so at all - we talked a little last night and she said she understands how I feel and doesn't know what she would do if she were me -

said it wasn't about OM per se, but rather how OM made W feel - I believe that -

said she is on my side - meaning she is on "our" side - wants our M to work and wants us to work all this out - also said W doesn't really believe I told OMW out of spite - like W says -

I think it could be useful to talk to her - do you?

Be careful 19,

I had a friend that found out his wife was cheating on him with a married guy at work. He exposed to OMW shortly thereafter. Within a few days or weeks, OM's Wife and my friend slept together as a revenge action. The very next morning my friend's wife approached him to see if they could work it out. They never did nor even tried.

Additionally, on this forum, on a thread I told you to read earlier, Shaden was very aggressively approached by the OM's Wife. She wanted to inflict pain upon Mrs. Shaden by seducing her husband.

Not saying your wife's friend or OM's Wife are even remotely likely to attempt this, but it does happen and you are vulnerable right now. Keep your sensibilities. Your integrity is at stake. Wife's friend may even be trying to trap you if a divorce petition is being considered or is in the works. They could attempt you to be equally involved in an inappropriate relationship. Watch your step all around.

BTW, another reason she may be asking so much about OM's W and you is that she is waiting to see if the other shoe is going to drop. If OM is going to crack and give up their secret. More might of happened and she's simmering with fear and anticipation that their "secret" ONS or PA will be revealled. Hope not. But if it's the truth I do hope it does come out cause then the denials and lies can discontinue and recovery can begin (if you choose).

Mr. Wondering

It sounds like it may be useful then. I don't see any harm in listening to what she says. She may be able to give you useful insight.

I am not sure you should talk to her. I think she want's to pump you for info for your W. I would not trust anyone at this point. Especially a friend of W. I think it's asking for trouble 19.

She is not on anyone's side. Just nosey

I don't think it will hurt anything to hear what she says. She may be able to give him some insight into his W's thinking. If he feels her intentions are not good, he can discern that at the meeting. He already knows not to tell her anything he doesn't want his W to know.

I would like to meet with her - I consider her to be a friend of mine too - but clearly more with W.

I would like her insight into what W is thinking. Of course I am sure she will not tell me anything W doesn't want her to.

You know last night we ate dinner and then left and went to a bar. I rode with friend's H and W rode with friend. We got there first since they had to make a stop and I was actually hoping they wouldn't show up.

I don't even like to look at W right now - pisses me off just to see her - will that stop one day? Is that normal? I am trying real hard to be nice anyway (Plan A) but man it's hard.

Also, I know I need to stop the LB's. That is hard too.

And Mr. W, I will not be having an A - with OMW, W's friend or anyone else. Thanks for the warning.

It's wierd that W's friend wants to meet with you to talk. Why? what could she possibly say that will make you feel better about what W has done.

You said you don't want to keep asking your W about the A and to back off alittle, but, now you are wanting to ask her friends about it. What's the difference, it will get back to W anyway. Seems unproductive to meet with W's friend. You are alway analayzing this to death. What if friend tells you something you don't want to hear. You will end up analyzing that to death to.

I really would like to know what W is thinking. She's not going to tell me.

Beauty is right, I will analyze it to death - that's just me - I analyze everything to death.

I am hoping she will tell me W feels bad about it, guilty etc. W won't tell me that, but she might tell her friend who might tell me. Not sure what good it will do, but I would like to hear what she has to say.

19,

I wish you would change your mind. It just feels like your trying to get more dirt on your W. You already know she feels quilty and bad, how is she going to react if friend tells you something and you try to use it against her or confront her about it. It just seems like a bad idea. But if you already made up your mind then I can't do anything about that. Good luck on finding out what you want to hear.

beauty, this woman is a friend to his wife, not a dirt disher. He has never stated that his intention is "get more dirt," but if she has information then he is ENTITLED to it. The friend wants their marriage to work and believes she has some information that might help that. If she doesn't, then so what? He is not harmed by meeting with her. The meeting is not secret, so its not like he is hiding anything. She may be able to give him some insight into the situation that he wouldn't get from his W. And if not, there is nothing lost. I don't see a problem with it at all.

First, I've done better with LB's today - but it hasn't been easy. The problem is W will make crappy little comments that demand a response from me that would be a LB. So, I have to just keep my mouth shut.

Earlier today, W actually suggested out of the blue that the four of us get together (me, W, OMW and OM). I think she meant like have them over to dinner. I told her I didn't want to do that.

ML, I know you earlier said maybe we should meet - the 4 of us - I don't think you meant have them over though. You don't think that's a good idea, do you?

W doesn't understand NC.

19, yes, I was kidding about that. Did you tell her that she can never contact him EVER AGAIN? Also, she has hurt this woman enough. She should never darken her doorstep again.

Have you explained no contact to her and that this is a boundary that can't be crossed?

I have told her that - more than once. I have a problem saying it in a way that doesn't sound like an ultimatum - I know it's a "boundary" - but it's still an ultimatum sort of and that is clearly an LB to her (whether it really is or not).

I am having a hard time getting this point across to W. I think I may try to talk to OMW and see what she says. I think she agrees with me on NC based on other discussions, but I need to be sure and then tell W that. W consistently says she doesn't see the need for NC, thinks I am overdoing it etc.

How can I get this across without it being an ultimatum? I have a feeling that OM doesn't even want to talk to her again, but I can't really be sure.

How about if I ask her if she agrees with NC. If she doesn't I'll tell her I'm done and go ahead and file. That's how I feel right now anyway. Very sick of W.

Truly, it IS an ultimatum because it is deal breaker. So I would present it as such. [let's remember what a lovebuster is and this is NOT a lovebuster!] Your marriage has NO HOPE in surviving anyway unless she absolutely stops all contact.

I would explain to her that it is profoundly disrespectful of her to suggest any contact and that in order for your marriage to ever recover, all contact must end. This is a boundary of yours that simply cannot be direspected.

19, I am very worried that you are going to try and cut corners with nc and I promise you will live to regret it. You have already seen with your own eyes what happens when you don't adhere to nc; this little affair has dragged on and on all this time because contact has not ended. If you think it will be any different in the future, you have a big surprise coming, because you are facing a years long on-again, off-again affair. Just ask Aphelion or any of the others here who had to endure LONG TERM affairs because of it. This is one point you just cannot afford to cut corners on.

Lovebusters are:

Selfish Demands [in case you think this is it, look again. this says selfish demand.]
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

You have to tell her that she can not have any type of contact with OM or his W. It will never end as long as she can get her fix. The fog just thickens.

Please don't be so afraid of what she might do. You need to get this A stopped and the only way to do that is with NC ever. You have to put your foot down with this one. Your W is acting like they can just come over to have dinner no problem. How absurd! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Did you remind her of how much that would hurt you and the OMW? Did she really think they would come? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Ask her to listen to herself. FOG FOG FOG..

She would rather put you in pain to even suggest that, just to see OM again. You have been patient and on plan A long enough..If she won't write a NC letter then she does not want to give up OM. I think you need to go to plan B. She needs to know that you are not a doormat and you won't put up with this crap any longer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'll add my two cents here.

You have to set your limits and stick to your guns. Honesty is not a love buster. Dishonesty is. There's lots of good advice in this thread. Nobody ever said recovering from an A is easy.

As far as the changes you've made in yourself, as long as WW can still get a "fix" from OM, it won't matter if you can do the housework and meet her ENs standing on your head. Definately use OMW as help to creat NC if you need to. Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is this still a possibility?
If so, I say go for it.

If...........

You can stick to your mantra that your ultimate goal is restoration of the marriage AND building a better marriage that you know is likely if given the opportunity.

I.E., demonstrate Plan A to this friend.

Listen with intensity if she offers constructive criticism. Who knows?, you may get valuable insight into your wife's needs.

Don't argue and anytime she criticizes the exposure to OMW you say, "I understand your concern. Taking that step was a necessary one to end the inappropriate relationship."

And one more time - anytime your wife harps about the exposure - "I understand your concern." Nothing more. Don't try to justify the exposure to her - she won't get it.

JMHO

WAT

ML -


I agree it is a dealbreaker and I am not going to cut corners here. The issue is how to present it and reinforce in a way that doesn't sound like an ultimatum - if possible. If not, then I can just give her another ultimatum - as long as I actually plan to go through with it this time.

So, when you say deal breaker, what do you mean? What if she says she doesn't agree with NC? (she has not said this yet, by the way). Do I tell her to leave? (she'd probably refuse). Do I go see a lawyer? My point is that other than taking the final step, I am not sure what I can do. Unless I make her leave, Plan B is not really an option, is it?

As far as LB's, I read some more on it this weekend - my worst, by far (maybe only) is angry outbursts. She will say something that I can't take and I don't. I actually have done pretty well since Friday night - when I was full of AO's.

19, what will you do if she refuses to end her affair? You are the one who has to answer that question. Are you willing to live with continued contact that will result in an on-again, off-again affair? You have seen with your own eyes what continued contact has wrought.

I think you are hoping we will give you some magic words that will make her magically see your point and stop all contact. But we can't do that. There is no way to phrase this that is going to make her like it.

What is wrong with an ultimatum?

Beauty and Drexell - I have told her there can be NC and I am not afraid of what she might do. I actually wish she would leave. I will not tell her anything "hurts" me - I am telling her it pisses me off. That is, of course, hard to do without it turning into an angry outburst.

I don't know how I can Plan B without her leaving - and I don't think I should leave at all. I really think it's too early for that. I think she knows I am not a doormat any more. I've made that pretty clear - probably too clear, actually.

Good that you "don't know how" because you can't.

WAT

19, if you can't tell her how much it hurts you, tell her how disrespectful it is to you and the OMW. Out of respect for both of you and your children, you would hope she would end contact. That is the ONLY WAY to rebuild trust.

I SURE DO wish you would get an appointment with Steve Harley. He is a PRO at getting through to these wayward wives. He would assess your situation and give you a recovery plan. He would be worth every penny, 19.

ML - I don't think anything is wrong with an ultimatum as long as I know in advance that I will follow through with it.

However, for some stupid reason, ultimatums bug the crap out of W - doesn't like being told what to do .... what a joke.

Not only has she said she will end it - she said it actually ended before I even told OMW. Remember, she said the EA ended back in Feb - turned back to them being friends etc. and she kept calling him because of the ultimatum I had given her - now, I don't believe that at all, but that's what she says. She also said she called him about 5 days before I told OMW and told him she wasn't calling him anymore. Don't know if that's true either.

My point is that she is not saying she won't end it, she's saying it's over and has been.

Of course, she has also said that she decided to stop calling him because she decided that - and nothing would have made her except her deciding (i.e. telling OMW did nothing). I don't believe that either, but she said it. I think she feels like she has no control in her life and wants to exert some .....

19, I don't understand why you are so afraid of an "ultimatum." Isn't it simply the TRUTH that there will be serious repurcussions if she DOES NOT end contact?

Why would you want to soft peddle that very important truth? Doesn't she need to understand that you are not willing to stay in a marriage that involves continued contact with her boyfriend?

Wait a minute. She is now talking about RESUMING contact, so any past talk about NO CONTACT is MOOT. So, wipe all that away and start from scratch.

If she intends on contacting him because of an "ultimatum" again, then she needs to be honest about that, so you can take steps to protect yourself and the OMW.

Does she know yet that oyu have told her parents?


And tell her that trashing your boundaries bugs the crap out of you. There is serious problem here that she professes to have absolutely no care or consideration for your feelings. Do you realize that?

Here's one idea I had to get my message across -

Back in early Feb when all this started, W took off her engagement ring (kept wedding ring on) as a "symbol" of how our M needed to change.

Fast forward to March 9 or so. W and I were going to an intense M seminar weekend - an entire weekend of MC. Before it started, I gave W an early anniversary present - a very nice bracelet that I went to a lot of trouble to get - she had seen it in a magazine 2 days before and pointed it out - it's called a love bracelet and it screws on her arm and is hard to get on and off so she just keeps it on - been on ever since - literally.

I told her I was giving it to her as a sign of starting all over and making this work - a very nice gesture on my part (if I say so myself) since it was a lot more than I planned to spend on that anniversary -

Obviously, if I had known she had still been talking to OM I never would have given her that or even gone to the seminar. It's now turned into a trigger for me. Seeing it on her arm.

I am thinking about telling her to take it off and give it back to me - as my "symbol" -

Any thoughts on that?????

So, the knowledge that she was hurting you, the OMW and all your children with her affair would not have motivated her to stop contact? That is very troublesome.

It sounds to me like she has personal power issues and will act in self destructive manners to demonstrate her power, regardless of who she destroys.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That would be a huge lovebuster! You want to reassure her that you are willing to forgive her and work on the marriage as long as she commits to absolute no contact. But you want to assure her that oyu love her. If you take the bracelet back, you will be giving her ammunition to demonize you. She will rationalize that she was pushed into an affair just because you are such an SOB.

19, better to just be straight with her. Tell her that the only way to recover this marriage is to implement absolute no contact with the OM and his family. Hand her the little snippet I posted from the Dr. Harley column and ask her to read it.

Form your discussion around that column.

ML - Thanks. OK, I won't do it. I thought it might be an LB - that's how I meant it. I guess it's counter-productive at this point.

I won't do it now, but I really, really want to. I want to cut if with a saw and melt it down.....

You know she's acted very distant all weekend - she'll make an occasional snide comment, but otherwise just quiet and distant - I haven't pushed it. She was actually acting like that before Friday night - which was a pretty bad night. She spent a lot of time in bed etc.

is that a sign of withdrawal? (or just still fog)

Reverse Babble:

When WW complains about your attempt as "controlling" her with ultimatums merely toss it back in her lap. Actually, honey, it's the opposite, you are attempting to control and manipulate "MY BOUNDARIES". My boundaries are about how I choose to allow other people to treat me. Our marriage is you and I. I can not allow you to bring another man (emotionally and/or physically) into our relationship. You either stay with me and commit to us or leave. It's simple and it's your choice.

I want to stay. Ok, then, let's work on a "no contact" letter and see if the TWO of us, alone, can do something about this marriage.

If she says, I can't do that, you can't force me to do that. Then say, we'll that is your choice. Does that mean you're leaving? Then walk away.

I don't believe you are even close to getting her out of the house. I don't think OM and her have any inclination of running off together. I believe her jusfications and rationalizations are firmly in place and until the boat is rocked she'll continue down this path.

Antoher thought, OM likely is not talking to her and SHE's BLAMING YOU. I went through this to after OM broke things off with Mrs. W. She thought I did it somehow (like I paid somebody to threaten him or something). The anger subsides as the withdrawal progresses. She may need just one more "closure" contact which is silly but she'll want to confirm with OM that it was real. Though it wasn't, she's hoping that this big old mess that she's created at least had some real feelings behind them. It's reaching.

Stand strong and you'll appear less needy and desparate. When this month is over you'll likely see progress.

Mr. Wondering

WAT - I am going to try to meet with her friend later this week.

WAT and ML - One thing I sort of want to ask her friend is how long W has been complaining about our M.

The reason is that W keeps saying how bad it has been for 15 years and I don't believe her anymore. I started thinking about it over the weekend and I know it has not been that long. It's been a few years for sure, 5 or 6 maybe, but no way it's been 15. I want to know if her friend has heard complaints from back that far.

Is it a bad idea to ask her that? Also, so you'll know, I am 99% sure her friend disapproves of the EA totally -

It sounds like withdrawal to me, but it could also be a sign of continued contact. In her case, I really don't think she is in contact, but it would not surprise me. Keep your eyes peeled!

19, please be careful to not lovebust her right now. That does not mean that you shouldn't set a FIRM boundary about no contact as we discussed.

Here is a really good thread about withdrawal that might give you some insight: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

Mr. W - Thanks. I hope your optimism is right. This is as bad as it has gotten for me so far.

I think you are right in that there are no plans to run off - I actually sort of wish they would now. That's the bad thing, I don't really want her right now.

I am assuming that will change and so I am trying to act like I do anyway, but I really don't. If there were not kids to consider, I would probably have left last week.

I will try to remember some of your arguements - they make a lot of sense.

19,

From what I'm reading, your self admited biggest Love Buster is Angry Outbursts. I want to point out that I saw another one in one of your posts. You said you weren't going to tell her how anything made you feel. IMO, that's dishonesty and that's a definate love buster too.

There is a way of expressing how you feel without being angry or being dishonest. You just have to be calm and if you catch your blood pressure starting to rise, put yourself in check. If you're not used to it, talking honestly about your feelings is going to feel like wearing your shoes on the wrong feet.

You can set your own personal limits with her honestly and respectfully and calmly. If it means that you have to procrastinate for a day or two to think yourself into that mindset, it's all good. Just be sure that when you tell her and what you tell her is clear, consistent, honest and respectful. Love Busters, at this point, are like bullets. If you don't give her any, she can't shoot them at you.

If you're really having strong issues with anger, there's a book called, "Anger is a Choice" by Tim Lahaye that really helped W and I deal with our DS14 a couple years back.

Best Wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a suggestion. Instead of lambasting her when she makes you mad, come here and unload on us. You can safely come here and cut loose without repurcussions. WE UNDERSTAND!

Yes, definately what ML said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Those are all good ideas - I will try to come here more and unload - easy during the workday, hard other times. It happens very fast - worse if I have had a drink or 2

Just talked to W - one of first things she asked was "Have you talked to your buddy today" - meaning OMW.

Also, told me she was so mad at me last night that she slept on sofa for an hour - I didn't know until she told me since I was asleep.

Said she was mad that I told OMW and mad about how I acted Friday night (I was bad Friday night). I controlled myself pretty well - I like the bullet analogy - and simply told her I was sorry for Friday night .....(didn't mention OMW - didn't tell her I was NOT sorry for that ... just bit my tongue -

19,

You need to let the chips fall where they may. You are trying to stay two steps ahead, always thinking about how she will react and how you can put it to her delicately so she won't leave. Listen, you are not going to know how she is going to react. She is in a fog. She is not herself.

ML is right, there are no Magic words that are going to lessen the blow. But you have to know what her intentions are. If she ended the EA, she shouldn't have a problem with this. Let her prove it to you, have her write the letter and both of you send it. If she resists then she has not comitted herself to rebuilding your marriage.

How are you going to know unless you ask her to do it. I did not tell you to ask her to leave or have you leave. I was tellng you that you can't go on like this. In a limbo about what she is going to do. If she want's to leave because she does not want to send a NC letter, then she is making her choice. You cannot bury your feelings and concerns because you think she is going to leave (walk on eggshells). You need to tell W that she can not still be friends with OM or OMW anymore and to suggest this is hurting you. Why can't you tell her that she has hurt you and is continuing to hurt you. It's true isn't it?

W may react to your ultimatum as a wake up call. You never know until you tell her and set your boundries.

Beauty - Not sure what you mean by "let the chips fall where they may" - I don't care if she leaves - I actually wish she would - because I am not going to.

She is actually going away for a long weekend soon. I use to dread it when she left for long weekends (only does it 2 or 3 times a year). This time I am looking forward to it. A little more responsibiliy for me, but that's OK.

"Hurt" sounds weak to me (for a man) - so I don't want to tell her that. "Mad" sounds better from my perspective. I don't want to be seen by her as weak at all right now.

There are no eggshells either. I let her know exactly how I feel this past Friday night - and I probably shouldn't have since the way I did it was AO after AO - of course, she usually says something to start it - I just respond - I just need to learn to not respond in an AO or not at all.

19, of course you're mad and angry. You got hurt! And once you break down the anger, the cause is a defensive reaction to pain. So, Friday she saw the anger. Can't go back and change that now. There's something about flies and vinegar here.

If you hit your finger with a hammer and you swear and cuss and say that hurts, that's not showing weakness, that's being human. Here's what happens the next day. You baby that finger because it's bruised. Again, not weak, just in pain and human.

In my opinion, the longer you can't communicate with your wife openly and honestly, the longer you're going to have feelings like you really don't care. You're not THAT angry because YOU haven't left. I think you do care about your wife and what she thinks or you wouldn't be here venting. (We encourage venting here)

There is a lot of experience. Some, you may not like. I don't like spending $3.00/gallon for gas, but it sure beats walking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

19,

It sounds like you are at the end of your rope with W. If you truly don't care if she leaves, then it should be easy to tell her to have NC.

Please don't wait for a fight to let her know how you feel. Actually the best time to talk about your feelings are when you are both in a good place and more receptive. That way you can avoid angry outbursts or LB's.

It is not weak to tell her that she is hurting you. She is the weak one. Just remember that you are not the one to blame here. You have tried it all and sometimes it's not enough. Obviously the living situation is getting worse. It's time to give W the ultimatum. For your own sanity.

Drex - I don't really mean weakness in the way I feel, but weakness in how it is shown. I've been accused on here of maybe being wimpy regarding W (that's for you ML <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) and I thought about it and if I was, that was not what I wanted to be (not really sure I was, but just in case).

I really think W knows how I feel - maybe not the full extent of how little I care right now, but she knows I am pretty mad.

She's mad too, however. Mad that I told OMW, mad that I was an a-hole Friday night and last, but not least, mad that I have treated her like crap for 15 years (and honestly don't believe it's been that long but trying to convince her is like beating my head against the wall).

And I am mad enough to leave right now - except - for my kids.

I vent here because I think that feeling will probably change and I want to give things time to let that happen. I didn't feel this way 2 weeks ago before I knew the extent of continued contact, so I think it will change if I give it some time. Does that make sense?

In the meantime, I have to stop the LB's or I'll run W off and then if my feelings do change, I'll regret it.

So, I am trying to see the long run beyond the short run. It's not easy to do at all especially when W acts pissed and acts like everything is my fault. Just so you'll know, in 18 years W has never been wrong about anything - and I mean never.

Beauty - She knows how I feel about NC. What I need to determine is whether she agrees. We discuss it and she beats around the bush - I need to flat out ask her if she agrees or not. Then I know where I stand.

She will never leave. If it comes down to that she will try to make me leave. From what little I know about D, she could probably get me out - at least in the short run.

It's the roller coaster bub. And I'm sure your WW will say that you are always the right one too. LOL One of the recent discussions that my WW and I have had was who was right more often. Vent it all out and pick our brains and create a tangible plan that you can be comfortable carrying out.

If your kids are your motivation, FABULOUS! Just remember, what your kids need most is for their parents to be in love, to love one another. If things don't work out for you, it won't be because YOU didn't try, will it? Of course not. On the same token, you have to protect your feelings for your wife and make sure that you don't start to feel hatred for her or the sitch gets more complicated.

Whatever you decide to do, make sure you get God's opinion too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do sort of feel hatred for her right now. I also think (and hope) you are correct about the roller coaster. I think I am in a bottom right now. Hopefully it will come back up ......

Hang in there. Sooner or later the ride has to come to a stop. It is up to you how much you can take before you throw up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's an interesting way to put it - I haven't thrown up any since dday (and I think W has a few times.....).

So I talk to W on the phone a few minutes ago and she says she needs to get a job so I can leave her. I say, what do you mean? She says so it won't be so bad money-wise and you can leave me and divorce me. I say, "Do you really think that's why I haven't done that?" She said yes.

I then told her that wasn't true.

That was pretty much it - she had to go. I didn't get into whether I loved her or any of that, just told her it wasn't true.

Should I have said that or should I have just let it go?

It's not true (i.e. I am not staying for money - right now it's the kids, not money).

Honesty isn't a love buster, remember?

Do you mean I should have said I am only staying for the kids? (I doubt it)

I don't think what I said was a LB - but - I could have been more of a hard [censored] and just let it go - I think she needs to have at least a little doubt - I think that helps with our chances -

sounds stupid, but based on things I have heard her tell her friends, I think it's true

I mean I think if you want her to respect you and be honest with you, then be honest with her. If it gets ugly after you've been honest with her, one thing she won't be able to call you is a liar. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Having said that, brutal honesty and radical honesty are not the same things. For example...

wife... "What do you think of this color blouse?"

you being radically honest... "I think you look better in the blue one."

you being brutally honest... "I think red makes you look fat and dumpy."

Quote:
So I talk to W on the phone a few minutes ago and she says she needs to get a job so I can leave her. I say, what do you mean? She says so it won't be so bad money-wise and you can leave me and divorce me. I say, "Do you really think that's why I haven't done that?" She said yes.
_____________

Two choices why she would say that, she's considering D, or she believes (fears?) that's what you want and always wanted.

For the second choice, how can she be sure that you REALLY want to recover, if she see and feels you "mad", not hurt but mad all the time?
How can she believes you'll ever forgive her? How can't she be afraid that from now on your life wont be all about LB because of the affair? How can't she fear your "power" because of her wrong doing? How can she believes in a new (happy) future?

Please 19, Make the decision rather you want to safe your marriage or not. (you have to include be able to love her all again)

She's not easy and I see some "red" flags during last updates... but... Don't forget, she's probably confused as well, and mostly she doesn't know how to get out of all the mess she created. She's at fault, she knows it and she hates it. She needs you to lower your defenses so she can lower hers, RADICAL HONESTY is the key. But you have to be the one to start.

This isn't a "power" fight or a game any of you has to win.

You two have to come to the RADICAL HONESTY conversation as to rebuilt or not.

If you decide to rebuilt your self, don't giver her the "staying for the kids" tell her HOW you truly believe your future together will be, and the happy couple you can be... if you both work for it.

Only after you two honestly agree to rebuilt you can make her understand how NC is important.

I'm not in the best positions for advice as you know... just sharing the feelings and conclusions of my own situation.
All I can say is that... since I reached the Anger phase... it has been really hard for me to be RADICALLY HONEST to my H specially about my feelings. All I have achieved was a stronger armor defense. It's not leading me anywhere.

If you haven't maybe you would like to read Asterix thread on the "Anger phase". Hope it helps.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Maybe you're both getting tired of this stage... She's not helping with her attitude. Did she ever considered coming to MB and read at least?

Also, I would correct the notion that if a seperation takes place, that it will be YOU leaving. I would disabuse her of that notion quickly. She may thinking you will be the one to leave in any potential seperation. Women usually just expect that, and are quite surprised when the man won't leave.

They don't want to give up their home, but expect to keep their home with all the furnishings intact with the children in order to cause the least amount of discomfort.