Is the OM involved in the church at all? What about having this discussion with the OMW and explaining to her how imperative it is for one of them to leave the church? If she understands that your W and her H cannot see each other at church, lest you will be dealing with this over and over and again, perhaps she would be willing to leave the church.

At worst, maybe the answer is that your W find another church now and you join her in August. I am getting the feeling that you want to skip this step so you won't rock the boat. Trust me, you don't even want to entertain that notion. You will pay dearly if you do.

You are right in that I would like to skip this step - but, not because I don't want to rock the boat (I've already turned the boat over!), but rather because I really don't want to leave - while there are things I don't like about it, I have lots of friends there etc. and changing would be starting over - it's a pain. I also have another commitment there through 2006 - I can blow that one off, but I hate to.

On the other hand, I know it has to be done - by one of us - and it's gonna happen. I am not going to see that pos every Sunday

19, the long term affairs that I have seen over the years resulted from not taking the no contact step seriously. The folks who have skipped this step always live to regret it. Because they didn't want to make any sacrifices, they ended up dealing with an on-again, off again affair for years. At best, they continually had the affair rubbed in their face for years. And of course, they all thought the affair was "over."

Let me give you this analogy. This would be like sending an alcoholic into the bar every week, setting a beer in front of him and telling him he can't have it. He sits there and stares at that beer every week but he doesn't touch it. He thinks of nothing but that beer and becomes obsessed with it. It is all he thinks about because he has to look at it every week.

When the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity, he grabs the beer and is off another binge. This happens over and over again over the years.

This is what you are facing if you stay in the same church with them, 19.

Ya know - if you'd expose it in the church, OM and OMW might willingly leave, assuming they're hypocrites. If they're not hypocrites and do not leave, the church is instantly available to help all involved using the built in processes.

I still fail to understand why you won't use the tools available yo you.

WAT

Just had a lengthy call with W - really got nowhere - talked about the same things we've been talking about for the past weeks and months. Pretty much what always happens when we talk about R.

Is it normal to get nowhere with these discussions? is it normal for where we are right now?

What do I need to do to try to break us out of this? Should I keep trying and just give it time - maybe to get her out of withdrawal if she is in it?

Any ideas?

19, there is not a whole lot you can do while she is in withdrawal, except to be WILLING to meet her needs and avoid lovebusters.

My greatest concern for you right now is potential contact at church that will INTERFERE with her withdrawal.

Outside of that, there is nothing you can really do to break you out of this pattern. It might be helpful to post one of your conversations and let us see if there are any patterns of communication that we can help you overcome. Some of the folks here are VERY good at spotting problems like that. I AM NOT.

Yes you are, Mel.

All ya gotta do is find a pattern of these letters:

b l a h
b l a h
b l a h

m e
m e
m e

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So do you think she is in withdrawal?

There are definite patterns - we talk about what she did and what I did, what she did and what I did.....

We talk about how bad I was for 15 years (and she was not as bad) - how she had a crush on OM for 2 days or so and then they were just friends - about how she had to call him since I told her she couldn't - about how I have over reacted to all of this and shouldn't have told OMW (this part is new, of course) - about how I am talking to a bunch of "kooks" on this site (her words) - and it goes round and round and round .....

and I usually do throw a few LB's in there too - I can't help it

Nope. Not withdrawal.

Foglatin.

Do you see the blah, blah, blahs?

And the me, me, mes?

Pure alien speak.

WAT
----------------
Kooks R Us.

>and I usually do throw a few LB's in there too - I can't help it


Yes you can. You did this much and you've learned SO much....YOU WILL CONTROL YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT'S THE ONLY THING YOU REALLY CONTROL. You cannot control her. But you can control your reactions to her.

And WAT's right. She's still so froggy that I'm surprised she's not turned green by now.

- Kimmy

How do you all know she is foggy? (and not in withdrawl?)

Bear in mind that I have to admit that I have been a [censored] a lot over the past 15 years - I don't deny it. I think she has over done it to a large extent, but it is true to a certain extent too. So, she is not making it all up. Just making it worse.

Also, I am not so sure that she is not telling the truth about the EA - I don't know.

I'm confused, 19. You've done some good work on busting up this adultery, but you're willing to risk your marriage so you can keep your men's group presidency? Please don't tell us you can't step down from that position. There's no elected or appointed post in the world a person can't resign from.

I could step down if I wanted to, but I don't want to do that.

I can change churches without stepping down, it just complicates it.

>but I don't want to do that.

So you're saying that your WANTS supercede your marriage's needs?

Just trying to get it clear in my head.

I guess it sounds that way - but -

I don't have to step down in order to change churches - I can do both, it's just a complicating factor -

why do you think she is stil foggy? (and not in withdrawal?)

19, what you don't seem to grasp is that the MB principles are a collection, a mosaic, of actions on your part, changes in attitudes, and enforced boundaries...of which NC is one. It's not a menu where you can select some of the actions to do from column A, change an attitude here or there in column B, or set only a boundary or two and decline to work on others. Frankly, if you don't do something about the church and NC, and do it soon, you are jeopardizing your marriage's recovery.

Good luck, 19. I regret saying it, but I think you're going to need all the luck you can find.

Your description of what she discussed is classic foglatin - blame shifting, rationalizing, justifications.

WAT

what if some of the blame shifting and justification is actually true - just made out to be worse than it really was?

19,

Why are you arguing if it is foglatin, babble or not??

Could I suggest marriage counsleing?? A marriage counsler that is pro-marriage and outside your church?

The MC can direct the conversations and steer them away from the same old discussions and toward the root of the matter. The MC can ask questions of you and W to get to the bottom of the dealeo.

You two speaking to each other is just ingraining the arguements.

IMHO,

k