19, what will you do if she refuses to end her affair? You are the one who has to answer that question. Are you willing to live with continued contact that will result in an on-again, off-again affair? You have seen with your own eyes what continued contact has wrought.

I think you are hoping we will give you some magic words that will make her magically see your point and stop all contact. But we can't do that. There is no way to phrase this that is going to make her like it.

What is wrong with an ultimatum?

Beauty and Drexell - I have told her there can be NC and I am not afraid of what she might do. I actually wish she would leave. I will not tell her anything "hurts" me - I am telling her it pisses me off. That is, of course, hard to do without it turning into an angry outburst.

I don't know how I can Plan B without her leaving - and I don't think I should leave at all. I really think it's too early for that. I think she knows I am not a doormat any more. I've made that pretty clear - probably too clear, actually.

Good that you "don't know how" because you can't.

WAT

19, if you can't tell her how much it hurts you, tell her how disrespectful it is to you and the OMW. Out of respect for both of you and your children, you would hope she would end contact. That is the ONLY WAY to rebuild trust.

I SURE DO wish you would get an appointment with Steve Harley. He is a PRO at getting through to these wayward wives. He would assess your situation and give you a recovery plan. He would be worth every penny, 19.

ML - I don't think anything is wrong with an ultimatum as long as I know in advance that I will follow through with it.

However, for some stupid reason, ultimatums bug the crap out of W - doesn't like being told what to do .... what a joke.

Not only has she said she will end it - she said it actually ended before I even told OMW. Remember, she said the EA ended back in Feb - turned back to them being friends etc. and she kept calling him because of the ultimatum I had given her - now, I don't believe that at all, but that's what she says. She also said she called him about 5 days before I told OMW and told him she wasn't calling him anymore. Don't know if that's true either.

My point is that she is not saying she won't end it, she's saying it's over and has been.

Of course, she has also said that she decided to stop calling him because she decided that - and nothing would have made her except her deciding (i.e. telling OMW did nothing). I don't believe that either, but she said it. I think she feels like she has no control in her life and wants to exert some .....

19, I don't understand why you are so afraid of an "ultimatum." Isn't it simply the TRUTH that there will be serious repurcussions if she DOES NOT end contact?

Why would you want to soft peddle that very important truth? Doesn't she need to understand that you are not willing to stay in a marriage that involves continued contact with her boyfriend?

Wait a minute. She is now talking about RESUMING contact, so any past talk about NO CONTACT is MOOT. So, wipe all that away and start from scratch.

If she intends on contacting him because of an "ultimatum" again, then she needs to be honest about that, so you can take steps to protect yourself and the OMW.

Does she know yet that oyu have told her parents?


And tell her that trashing your boundaries bugs the crap out of you. There is serious problem here that she professes to have absolutely no care or consideration for your feelings. Do you realize that?

Here's one idea I had to get my message across -

Back in early Feb when all this started, W took off her engagement ring (kept wedding ring on) as a "symbol" of how our M needed to change.

Fast forward to March 9 or so. W and I were going to an intense M seminar weekend - an entire weekend of MC. Before it started, I gave W an early anniversary present - a very nice bracelet that I went to a lot of trouble to get - she had seen it in a magazine 2 days before and pointed it out - it's called a love bracelet and it screws on her arm and is hard to get on and off so she just keeps it on - been on ever since - literally.

I told her I was giving it to her as a sign of starting all over and making this work - a very nice gesture on my part (if I say so myself) since it was a lot more than I planned to spend on that anniversary -

Obviously, if I had known she had still been talking to OM I never would have given her that or even gone to the seminar. It's now turned into a trigger for me. Seeing it on her arm.

I am thinking about telling her to take it off and give it back to me - as my "symbol" -

Any thoughts on that?????

So, the knowledge that she was hurting you, the OMW and all your children with her affair would not have motivated her to stop contact? That is very troublesome.

It sounds to me like she has personal power issues and will act in self destructive manners to demonstrate her power, regardless of who she destroys.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That would be a huge lovebuster! You want to reassure her that you are willing to forgive her and work on the marriage as long as she commits to absolute no contact. But you want to assure her that oyu love her. If you take the bracelet back, you will be giving her ammunition to demonize you. She will rationalize that she was pushed into an affair just because you are such an SOB.

19, better to just be straight with her. Tell her that the only way to recover this marriage is to implement absolute no contact with the OM and his family. Hand her the little snippet I posted from the Dr. Harley column and ask her to read it.

Form your discussion around that column.

ML - Thanks. OK, I won't do it. I thought it might be an LB - that's how I meant it. I guess it's counter-productive at this point.

I won't do it now, but I really, really want to. I want to cut if with a saw and melt it down.....

You know she's acted very distant all weekend - she'll make an occasional snide comment, but otherwise just quiet and distant - I haven't pushed it. She was actually acting like that before Friday night - which was a pretty bad night. She spent a lot of time in bed etc.

is that a sign of withdrawal? (or just still fog)

Reverse Babble:

When WW complains about your attempt as "controlling" her with ultimatums merely toss it back in her lap. Actually, honey, it's the opposite, you are attempting to control and manipulate "MY BOUNDARIES". My boundaries are about how I choose to allow other people to treat me. Our marriage is you and I. I can not allow you to bring another man (emotionally and/or physically) into our relationship. You either stay with me and commit to us or leave. It's simple and it's your choice.

I want to stay. Ok, then, let's work on a "no contact" letter and see if the TWO of us, alone, can do something about this marriage.

If she says, I can't do that, you can't force me to do that. Then say, we'll that is your choice. Does that mean you're leaving? Then walk away.

I don't believe you are even close to getting her out of the house. I don't think OM and her have any inclination of running off together. I believe her jusfications and rationalizations are firmly in place and until the boat is rocked she'll continue down this path.

Antoher thought, OM likely is not talking to her and SHE's BLAMING YOU. I went through this to after OM broke things off with Mrs. W. She thought I did it somehow (like I paid somebody to threaten him or something). The anger subsides as the withdrawal progresses. She may need just one more "closure" contact which is silly but she'll want to confirm with OM that it was real. Though it wasn't, she's hoping that this big old mess that she's created at least had some real feelings behind them. It's reaching.

Stand strong and you'll appear less needy and desparate. When this month is over you'll likely see progress.

Mr. Wondering

WAT - I am going to try to meet with her friend later this week.

WAT and ML - One thing I sort of want to ask her friend is how long W has been complaining about our M.

The reason is that W keeps saying how bad it has been for 15 years and I don't believe her anymore. I started thinking about it over the weekend and I know it has not been that long. It's been a few years for sure, 5 or 6 maybe, but no way it's been 15. I want to know if her friend has heard complaints from back that far.

Is it a bad idea to ask her that? Also, so you'll know, I am 99% sure her friend disapproves of the EA totally -

It sounds like withdrawal to me, but it could also be a sign of continued contact. In her case, I really don't think she is in contact, but it would not surprise me. Keep your eyes peeled!

19, please be careful to not lovebust her right now. That does not mean that you shouldn't set a FIRM boundary about no contact as we discussed.

Here is a really good thread about withdrawal that might give you some insight: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2686313

Mr. W - Thanks. I hope your optimism is right. This is as bad as it has gotten for me so far.

I think you are right in that there are no plans to run off - I actually sort of wish they would now. That's the bad thing, I don't really want her right now.

I am assuming that will change and so I am trying to act like I do anyway, but I really don't. If there were not kids to consider, I would probably have left last week.

I will try to remember some of your arguements - they make a lot of sense.

19,

From what I'm reading, your self admited biggest Love Buster is Angry Outbursts. I want to point out that I saw another one in one of your posts. You said you weren't going to tell her how anything made you feel. IMO, that's dishonesty and that's a definate love buster too.

There is a way of expressing how you feel without being angry or being dishonest. You just have to be calm and if you catch your blood pressure starting to rise, put yourself in check. If you're not used to it, talking honestly about your feelings is going to feel like wearing your shoes on the wrong feet.

You can set your own personal limits with her honestly and respectfully and calmly. If it means that you have to procrastinate for a day or two to think yourself into that mindset, it's all good. Just be sure that when you tell her and what you tell her is clear, consistent, honest and respectful. Love Busters, at this point, are like bullets. If you don't give her any, she can't shoot them at you.

If you're really having strong issues with anger, there's a book called, "Anger is a Choice" by Tim Lahaye that really helped W and I deal with our DS14 a couple years back.

Best Wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a suggestion. Instead of lambasting her when she makes you mad, come here and unload on us. You can safely come here and cut loose without repurcussions. WE UNDERSTAND!

Yes, definately what ML said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Those are all good ideas - I will try to come here more and unload - easy during the workday, hard other times. It happens very fast - worse if I have had a drink or 2

Just talked to W - one of first things she asked was "Have you talked to your buddy today" - meaning OMW.

Also, told me she was so mad at me last night that she slept on sofa for an hour - I didn't know until she told me since I was asleep.

Said she was mad that I told OMW and mad about how I acted Friday night (I was bad Friday night). I controlled myself pretty well - I like the bullet analogy - and simply told her I was sorry for Friday night .....(didn't mention OMW - didn't tell her I was NOT sorry for that ... just bit my tongue -

19,

You need to let the chips fall where they may. You are trying to stay two steps ahead, always thinking about how she will react and how you can put it to her delicately so she won't leave. Listen, you are not going to know how she is going to react. She is in a fog. She is not herself.

ML is right, there are no Magic words that are going to lessen the blow. But you have to know what her intentions are. If she ended the EA, she shouldn't have a problem with this. Let her prove it to you, have her write the letter and both of you send it. If she resists then she has not comitted herself to rebuilding your marriage.

How are you going to know unless you ask her to do it. I did not tell you to ask her to leave or have you leave. I was tellng you that you can't go on like this. In a limbo about what she is going to do. If she want's to leave because she does not want to send a NC letter, then she is making her choice. You cannot bury your feelings and concerns because you think she is going to leave (walk on eggshells). You need to tell W that she can not still be friends with OM or OMW anymore and to suggest this is hurting you. Why can't you tell her that she has hurt you and is continuing to hurt you. It's true isn't it?

W may react to your ultimatum as a wake up call. You never know until you tell her and set your boundries.