WAT, absolutely!! Won't it be grand when WW sits and thinks about it later too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't really think either of us is going to leave anytime soon - I could be wrong, but I don't think so and I think I may have given the wrong impression.

I am pretty chapped right now, but I think I feel better today. Maybe W will too. I don't know. Don't have any real reason to feel better, but right now I do.

W and I talked very little last night. That's good and bad, I guess.

FWIW I will not leave unless a judge makes me leave. I will not agree to it. If she wants to she can. I don't think she does right now.

As far as the job, the job she was specifically referring to is at the same place I work - same very small department in fact. While I would like the money, I think that's a terrible idea - does anybody agree to disagree?

19, what would be terrible about her coming to work there?

Regarding her coming to work at your employer:

In a healthy marriage, my personal opinion would be NOT to work at the same place. That's just my preference - to keep work and family life separate. Others would obviously see it the opposite way.

But, in your sitch - even if you agreed with my opinion above - I'll say that having her work there could probably do more good than harm. More time together and more in common - not to mention better surveilance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

ML - I guess I don't really know - there are 4 of us in the department - she'd be next door - literally - I am worried that could be too much "togetherness" -

Part of it could be right now I like to get away from her and that would end that - I have not always felt that and I hope I don't forever, but I do now -

I also don't trust her right now.

What if we did get divorced? Wouldn't that be a big mess?

19, those are very valid reasons why she shouldn't come to work with you. I can understand why you would want to have some reprieve from her. As much as I adore my H, sometimes it is a relief to get a break and we have a great marriage.

But I do think its a good idea to encourage her to get a job as long as it doesn't harm your family life. That might help her gain a feeling of control over her life. And it seems she doesn't feel she has much power in her life.

ML - I think your "control" point is right on - throughout this entire thing, a lot of things she has said and done have dealt with control (mainly my telling her couldn't call OM ...) - I do think she doesn't feel like she has a lot of control.

OMW even thinks W feels like she has little control over her life. OMW actually said said she feels sorry for W.

Maybe a job would help her with that.

I am not entirely sure I would really mind her working up here. I can always close my door. The group really does not work together too much.

Any other ideas for making her feel more in control? I am not sure she really wants a job.

WAT and DREX - you always give such good advice - I had to read all the way through this thread as I would like to comment - maybe give some help, if you didn't think I was butting in.

Also will suggest to FWH he wears his shoes on the wrong feet to remind him not to LB - he says he "deosn't mean to" same for the A while in counselling, and the EA one year later, it is his mantra and is a LB for me - along with - "sorry sorry" and "ILY" but all with no acknowledgemnt of what he has done or respectful attitude toward me or the pain it causes.

LOVED the wrong shoes thing .....


Sp

Just got off the phone with W - I think I avoided any LB's (not totally sure).

She said she was mad at me for 4 things 1. way I have acted for 15 years, 2. way I acted Friday night, 3. telling the OMW, and 4. making such a big deal over "nothing" (i.e. her EA). I told her I was sorry for 1 and 2 but not the rest. Was that a LB?

I am having very hard time right now with the fact that she keeps saying she didn't do anything. Also, I am beginning to feel like she may call OM - just to show me that my telling OMW didn't stop her.

She keeps on saying that my telling OMW did nothing - that she stopped because she wanted to. She is all wound up on the "me telling her what to do" thing. I don't know how to get over this one. I never tell her what to do, by the way. This all stems from the NC ultimatum I gave her months ago.

W and I see MC early tomorrow morning. A lot has happened over the past 2 weeks since we saw MC last - by a lot, I mean: I told OMW, I found out W had been in contact with OM over past 2 mos. etc. - so the whole scenario has changed since last time (and W had been lying to MC about contact).

So, tomorrow will be an interesting session. I am actually looking forward to it since W will be squirming (has to fess up to MC).

In my never ending quest to avoid LB's, can I say whatever I want to with the MC or do I have to worry about LB's there too?

For example, can I tell MC and W that because of continued contact we are back to square 1 and all that good that had happened over 2 mos. is totally meaningless now - total waste and totally gone - is that an LB?

19,

Completely my opinion...

Never apologize for exposure. It wasn't you who had the affair, remember? If she didn't want people knowing about it, she ought not have done it, right?

As far as what you say in front of the MC. You can use the MC as a safety net, but that doesn't mean go in there guns a blazing. You can say you "feel" that because of continued contact that you are back to square 1 and all that good that had happened over 2 mos. is meaningless to you now. Omit the total waste and totally gone part unless you want to pay an hourly rate to have a fight.

Good MCs will play ref and prevent, or at least try to prevent, great emotional damage from happening, especially in their office. Generally, they know what they're doing. You might start by saying that you'd like to address how her continued contact makes you feel and let MC ask the questions.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drex - Thanks. I will never apologize to W for exposure. I think I would rather be divorced.

If there had not been continous contact, I might consider it, but there was, so NFW.

I swallow my pride just about every day now, but I'd choke to death if I had to go that far.

You can even say, "I am upset/angry/mad about the continued contact. I believe it is disrespectful." Something along those lines. Try to focus on "I" statements. Ultimately, the goal is to make YOU better, right?

19...thanks for chiming in on "completly lost's" thread.

You are all at about the same point in trying to save your marriages, and I admire your efforts and resolve. You guys should follow each other's threads and give support back and forth. It's easier to identify with what your going through, when you are going through it, if you know what I mean. All this happened to me over 2 years ago, and sometimes thinking back get painful and burdensome...

SD

19, have you given her your ULTIMATUM about no contact? I am sorry she doesn't like them, but she is not entitled to trash your boundaries because she "doesn't like to be told what to do." That is childish. So, if she intends on disrespecting you and the OMW again by continuing contact, she needs to honest and up front about that, so you can both take whatever action neccessary to protect yourselves.

Time to get her intentions and your expectations out in the open, 19.

She is simply trying to blackmail you into not protecting yourself with no contact because SHE KNOWS that you FEEL inappropriate guilt about "ultimatums." She is using your guilt as ammunition AGAINST you. So, call her bluff on this NOW.

ML - OK. So what do I say? "If you call him again there will be significant consequences" or something even more specific "If you call him again, I will file"

Also, I feel no guilt about the ultimatum - in fact I feel no guilt about anything except how I've acted in the past - maybe the ultimatum was bad strategy, but there is no guilt.

Now, she has told me that she is not going to call him again. I just sort of think she might just to prove she can.

Just LAY IT OUT, 19. Show her the column from Dr. Harley and tell her that ABSOLUTE no contact is what it will take to protect you and the OMW, and nothing less. That is your protective boundary and if she chooses to DISRESPECT it, there will be significant consequences.

Tell her you will settle for nothing less.

Why is the ultimatum a "bad strategy?" Because she chooses to be disrespectful and immature? It is not a bad strategy to have a PROTECTIVE BOUNDARY, 19.

Then when can you expect her no contact letter?

I posted this above re: MC meeting tomorrow - any thoughts? Maybe that's a good place to bring up contact? Thanks.

19, I wouldn't put this off for the MC to handle. This is YOUR ISSUE. And hopefully a non negotiable issue.

Does this MC support MB principles? Did you know that marriage counseling has under a 25% success rate, whereas Dr. Harley has 90%? Often marriage counseling leads to divorce because many are not PRO-Marriage.