So what if she doesn't want to read anything now? You can read the book and be ready with information from it for dicusssions with her and you can mention passages from it in MC sessions. Besides, if you leave it laying on the coffee table, she'll have to address it sooner or later.

ML - I know I don't need the admission - I just want it. Also, it would make things a lot easier re: contact etc. Hard for me to justify NC if they are/were "just friends" - know what I mean?

I think next time I will tell her she can call it or consider it whatever she wants. She knows how I feel about it. And maybe just leave it at that.

She's still real mad about me telling OMW and being a [censored] Friday night. I think I am going to try to tone everything down for a few days and let her get over being mad at those things - makes it even harder for me to deal with her.

Longhorn - I think I will get that book - can't hurt. Then I'll leave it lying around and see if she does pick it up - I bet she will.

Yes, I know you want it. However, you don't have to justify your boundary for no contact. I think that admission will come eventually, but I would let her know that you don't need her admission. Everyone knows what it is.

ML - I know I don't need to justify NC, it just makes it easier for her to argue about it or complain about it if she can say they were "just friends".

I also get tired of her continuously turning it back to me and how bad I've been. I am now convinced that she's making it out to be much worse than it really was - (I wasn't perfect, but nothing compared to what she is saying) - that's getting old.

All of this is getting real old.

Quote:
ML - I know I don't need the admission - I just want it. Also, it would make things a lot easier re: contact etc. Hard for me to justify NC if they are/were "just friends" - know what I mean?
____________________________________

As ML mentioned, she can call it what she wants.
Take her own words, and ask her to NC her "frieeend" because her "frieeendship" is damaging your M, and unless she wants to live like this forever or end up destroying your family she needs to admit to herself (not to you or anyone else) this "friendship" is not right.

You know better how to deal with her.

But, IMO, I'd write her a letter telling her EVERYTHING, a truly coming from yourself honest letter.

Not blaming her, not accusing her, just explaining her how wrong it is this "friendship", and the consequences at present stage of her denying the EA.
Telling her you are not even there anymore, tell her what you want and need so your M can move on.
She's writing history, write your version, and remember her that it's not as bad as she's now telling.

I know you wrote a letter before, but that was too early past d-day maybe for her to listen.

I'd give it a try. A very long letter, carefully written, where LB are SO much easier to avoid.

Write it having in mind that you will LOVE each other deeply again in the future, if you both work for it. Of course you can't be sure this will happen... but that's the goal and you're taking the risk.

What do you have to loose?

Just my opinion, as you know I am not at such a good place right now. Anyway, working hard on myself to let go of all the hatred feelings and trying really hard to believe in the future. It's being really hard to forgive myself to accept him back after all this. I hope I'll get there. H leaving tonight to Europe for 10 days. I'll have peace and will be enjoying my girls.

there have been sevral articles this week - one said that people who had lost a child felt that the pain of the "new adultary" Oprah - I think, was more than losing a child.

I can understand - a bereavement, as terrible as it is, is from outside the marriage - an EA is an attack from within the marriage. your life friedn and confidant has turned off the lgith of love and is shining it on someone else. I found it much eaiser to deal with his SA although he used it to really attack me by denying sex (another story).

The most hurtful thing my husband said about his EAs was to keep saying - "they were my FRIENDS" I stopped that by repying "Friends do not help someone destroy their marriage, they tell them to go talk to the spouse and get some MC" He had real friends who said this to him ... but he didn't consider them friends at the time. Now he does.

SP

Quote:
Should I tell her about the list I have that she made which was pros and cons of leaving me and included OM's being married as a con to leaving me? She does not know I have that.
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Use all you have to make her admit it, what better hard proof could you get that it was more then *just friends* ?

She can't deny the EA after that one... I truly believe she will finally realize she can't keep that game of hers.

Present it to her and end it up at once.
She can me "smart enough" to admit it imediately.
but be prepared and don't follow her game if she tries the "be angry" at you because you been spying on her and that you're "again" the bad guy, bla, bla, bla.

And after that if she accuses you of holding this info from her, just tell her that you were just waiting for her to come clean. because you still believe she can be honest... if she wants.

Again Radical Honesty policy.

If you put it all in a letter or if you go into a deep long conversation where you give it all, only you can know what can work best for you two.

I'd go for the looooooonnnnng letter, as you can be sure not to miss anything, and can easy avoid LB.... and you're not interrupted with any kind of 'WS bs, fog, witdrwal, etc.

Tell her everything. All your history following that Josef's letter principals.

Don't you think you can reach her this way?

lost - I may have to try a letter - I am actually great at writing letters (if I do say so myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) so I may have to try it.

One thing that makes me mad when I write her letters, however, is that she never writes me back.

W is being a real *&^%$ right now. She has been for about 10 days - ever since she decided to get mad at my telling OMW. It was a noticeable change from how she had been acting.

Over the past 5 days or do I have been very good at avoiding LB's - not perfect, but pretty close. Of course last Friday I probably did enough LBing for a year ... It's not been easy because W loves to launch little comments that I would really like to respond to ... but I don't.

Any ideas as to when she will get over this anger? (I don't mean her underlying anger in general, just anger over my telling OMW). Any ideas as to things I can do to help? (and I know avoiding LB's is one for sure).

As several of us said some time ago - a good sign.

She HAS to be mad at you for telling OMW because it gives her someone to blame for her misery.

This is blame shifting and denial together. Good. It's proof that she is not yet realistically evaluating herself. She's hiding.

It'll come. Don't know how soon, but it will.

WAT

Thanks. I do remember you and others saying that before - I didn't really think this would last this long.

Of course, I didn't help matters by how I acted Friday night - probably did one of the worst things I could have done (i.e. drank too much and was a [censored]). I have apologized for that.

Any ideas as to anything I can do to help it along? or should I just stay out of the way?

She will hit the wall - the anger will go on and on and then she will burst or do or say something so ridiculous that even she will have to break down and see her own foolishness in denial.

Present her with the list - do it to her face - stand there while she reads the NOTE accompanying it, not a letter - a simple brief note.

If she screams about spying, tell her "people with nothing to hide hide nothing." Also - "if we can share the most imtimate part of our bodies and have made vows to share them and all else - then what is the big fuss over a piece of paper?"

Stay calm as she gets mad - you are doing well - did you see my answer about the EA articles?

Linda

ps. Don't beat yourself up for failing to be perfect MB at times - we are only human - just dust yourself off and get back on the horse. *smile*

I think I did see that article - in a magazine she bought - I read it, not sure she has but I need to ask her.

Not sure about the "list". My snooping really pisses her off - maybe it shouldn't be a LB, but I think it is to her (probably because she has been sneaking around behind my back) -

I guess the rationale is that if I don't need acknowledgement (even though I want it) not sure I have much to gain from showing her the list right now - at least not while she is so po'd.

19-

Have you read LovingAnway on "...dooms day..." thread? I got a lot of ideas for my self from her on a healthy way to separate myself from WW and the A. And still be loving and empathetic towards myself and my WW. Standing calm at the center of the storm. I'm getting sucked into the storm more often than I'd like but I have stood at the center, know what it feels like and am striving to spend more time there. It's a calm and peaceful place.

But it takes so much PATIENCE to stand there. It seems to me, you have little patience. Am I right? I have little too. LA has said some things that resonate with me - most recently about coming at life with careful actions to get results.



Not sure if that helps you any at all but since I see some of MYself in you I thought it might.

Much love.

MDC - Thanks. I'll try to read some of that. I am very impatient and I come at life just like mentioned in the quote.

I may start a new thread for this -

Why bother with trying to work out your M with a WS? I know the standard reasons: kids, money etc.

Why subject yourself to being treated like crap - and I mean after the ulimate crap - the A? The crap continues - at least it does for me. I just got crapped on a few minutes ago.

There is no doubt in my mind that in the short run it would be much easier to tell her to *&^% off and get a D. Today, I really wouldn't care.

Maybe it's the long run - maybe us BS's know that's not what we'd want 2 or 3 or 10 or 15 years from now. But how do we even know that?

How do we know we wouldn't find someone else - someone who would treat us more like we deserve - and who we could more easily treat like they deserve to be treated?

Sometimes I think this is just too hard and may not be worth it anyway.

Any thoughts?

There is a theory that there is actually a science to the way we choose our mates. A "checklist" of sorts in the dark recesses of our minds that directs our choices. And if we bail out of one bad relationship... the next mate we choose will be very much like the former mate... and we'll be right back where we started.

My counselor told me about a former client of his who went through something like 8 boyfriends... every single one of them on federal probation. Do you know how hard it is to GET on federal probation? To FIND 8 random citizens out walking around who are on federal probation?

It's the same dynamic that leads children of alcoholics to mary alcoholics... abuse victims to marry violent people... people who've been married multiple times to delcare "I keep marrying the same woman!".

19, here's a word for you: Resolve. Get some. It's far too early in the game to be this wishy-washy.

--SC

I don't think I am wishy-washy (at least not about this) -

and I've heard the stuff about how we pick similar mates ....but there have to be exceptions/mistakes - there always are

I am just simply sick of the crap that my W is dealing out -
she's defensive as he11, won't acknowledge she did anything wrong, pissed at me for telling OMW, pissed at me for her treating her badly for so long (which is exagerated and which she never once told me about) blah blah blah - i.e. it's all my fault - every problem she's had since 1986 is my fault -

That gets real old real fast especially when I am trying real hard not to LB and especially when I find out she has been repeatedly lying to me for 3 mos. about NC. Then again, they were "just friends" - if I hear that again ....

How can she really justify being mad at me for telling OMW when she was still in contact with OM? Her nerve kills me when I can't respond.

I guess my point is I can't stand her right now - so why should I bother with what is a herculean effort - it would be easier to quit and move on - at least in the short run.

What do you mean by "resolve"?

I don't think he's wishy washy at all, just worn out and disgusted, which is a natural reaction. 19, not all marriages are salvagable, nor should they be salvaged.
Alot rides on the state of the marriage BEFORE the affair. If you had a somewhat good marriage before the affair, it is highly likely you will have one AFTERWARDS.

That being said, I would add that some here, me for one, did not have good marriages before the affair, and now have GREAT marriages. So I do know it is possible.

My concern here is that you are getting quickly worn down by her attitude and are losing any will you have to endure her abuse anymore. You need some kind of breakthrough to keep you in the game.

I wish you would re-consider calling Steve Harley and letting him assess your situtation. He is very good at pulling reluctant WW's out of their crap. He might be able to get somewhere with her. At least give it a try before you throw in the towel. Its much cheaper than divorce.