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ML - Thanks. You are right, I am worn out and disgusted. Also, the way I feel about W has changed - probably forever. Not necessarily worse, but definitely different.
I am not close to throwing in the towel, however. I am just frustrated and looking for answers and reasons that don't exist and never will.
I thought my M was OK before all this - maybe not great, but not real bad either. Either W was hiding this (which is possible) or she has done some serious "re-writing".
I am not really wearing down - just frustrated. W will be leaving town next weekend for a long weekend. I think that will be good for me (and maybe W too).
I don't think W would talk to SH. She thinks we are all "kooks" on this site (her words, not mine).
So I guess I am trying to convince myself that it's worth the effort - and I know it's not a short process
Thanks.
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So here I am at home tonight. W is out. I am actually glad she is not here. I didn't use to be like that - will I always be like that now?
I took 2 of the kids out to dinner. I am imagining now what it would be like to be divorced. I am sure I can't really imagine it, but it doesn't seem like it would be that bad.
I don't like being around her right now. I feel like I have very little to say to her right now. Is that normal?
I am also glad W will be out of town next weekend. I didn't used to be like that either, but I am now. Will I always be like that?
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Hopefully, it won't always be like that, 19. Your feelings are a direct result of having your love bank utterly depleted by her incessant lovebusters.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I've thought about that, ML. I think my love bank is totally empty toward her right now.
Maybe it's the same thing I have done to W - one way or another. That's how she makes it sound in her now-twisted view.
At least I try - I try not to LB and I try to meet her EN's. I am not anywhere close to perfect, but I try. I have tried real hard for 3 mos. and W told me repeatedly she wasn't talking to OM. Of course she was. How can I let that go? What a waste of 3 mos. For all I know it's still going on.
W hasn't tried at all in my book. She couldn't even quit calling her "friend" and now she has to act like a bit^% all the time just because I finally did something and told OMW.
How can I let any of this go? I also realize that many people on here have let things go that appear to be much worse, but how?
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You don't let things go at all, you just bide you time, bite you tongue and ride this out. That doesn't mean that you put up with abuse, but that you do your best to avoid lovebusters and look for opportunities to meet her needs.
Why did she fall in love with you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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19,
Your feelings are founded. You need a break and that is why it feels good to you to be alone right now. It does not mean that you will always feel this way. Hang in there. I think a break from the W is good.
I remember when I felt the same way. Just one day or two of not having to look at my H mope around with that look on his face felt good. Sometimes you just need to be alone without constantly thinking about what your WW has done.
You will feel renewed when your W comes back and maybe she will have cooled off by then and will stop blaming you. She is just angry that you blew the whistle on her to OMW because now she knows that OMW will be watching OM very closely.
It's just hard for me to believe that she is so foggy about an EA..It leads me to believe that it was much more than that. Did OMW ever talk to you about what OM said about EA? Was it more than that? Have you been in contact since you exposed to her? Just curious what OM's side of the story is.
"I hurt myself today, to see If I still feel...I focus on the pain, the thing only thing that's real"... Johnny Cash.."Hurt"
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I don't think W would talk to SH. She thinks we are all "kooks" on this site (her words, not mine). You don't need her to counsel with him. He could give you a PLAN based on your situation if you talk to him alone. And then he would tell you how to bring her in. He has a method that is pretty effective. Just consider it, he might help you effect the breakthrough you want.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There is not much abuse going on. She's just sort of sullen.
I really don't know why she fell in love with me - I guess she thought I was a nice, attractive guy with good earning potential - I really don't know. I understand why you are asking, but it's hard for a guy to answer that - at least it is for me.
We met in school (after college) and were just friends for about 4 weeks - she actually dated my roommate for a couple of weeks and we got to be really good friends very quickly. We were best friends. Then it changed and we went from there - very quickly too. I fell in love with her very fast and I guess she did with me too. Next thing I know we're married and I was very happy.
SF became a problem pretty quickly - within a couple of years and that is probably the underlying cause of it all. I need a lot more SF and physical affection than she gives and I have not been good about accepting less.
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beauty - I hope you are right - maybe I will feel renewed when she comes back from trips - some of the best SF we have ever had has been after her trips.
Don't know about this time. I usually dread her going and miss her a lot. I don't see myself missing her this time. What does that mean? Maybe I'll feel like I think she feels when I leave town - doesn't really care - or at least doesn't miss me except for my childcare abilities -
I have talked to OMW several times since she talked to OM. Their stories are very similar - if anything, OM made it sound like even less. The main reason I think it was just an EA, however, is the phone calls I heard. Based on those calls, I am about as sure as I can be that there was no PA.
What I sort of think is that maybe it was a longer term EA than I thought. They were good friends for a couple of years before the EA really started. Maybe the EA has been going on longer - just differently. Maybe her feelings have been there longer -
Even if that's wrong, I really think that just the fact that they got to be such good friends for so long makes it harder too - she is losing that, if nothing else, and that has to make it harder - don't you think?
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As long as you think that was all that it was, then it makes sense. So, if you believe that, then what are you trying to get her to admit? Are you waiting for an apology?
"I hurt myself today, to see If I still feel...I focus on the pain, the thing only thing that's real"... Johnny Cash.."Hurt"
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Hi 19, I found this thread from StarFish and I thought maybe you would like to read it. It is very good: It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.
Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear
Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".
There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.
MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.
You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.
Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.
If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.
Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.
Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.
Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.
Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.
And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble chere.
"I hurt myself today, to see If I still feel...I focus on the pain, the thing only thing that's real"... Johnny Cash.."Hurt"
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I would like an apology, yes. I have gotten some apologies, but not much. Instead I get justifications, explanations, denials etc.
I don't expect to ever really get an apology like I'd like, so I am not holding out for that.
I would like her to at least admit it was an inappropriate relationship - an EA. She won't even admit that. They were just friends.
Right now I guess I am waiting for her to act like she wants to work on this and not just me. She is making no effort right now. It's all me and that makes it much harder. She was working on it, but she stopped recently. She had already tapered off her efforts, but it totally stopped a couple of days after I told OMW.
I am hoping that once she gets over being mad about that (if she ever does) that she (we) can get back to working on it - or end it.
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I have seen the "fear" post before. You are right - it is good. Thanks.
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19 -
Please talk to SH if you can. Not an inexpensive session. My insurance paid half. He's like a surgeon. Very clinical, analytical and no-nonsense. I have had only one session with him so far - due to the $$!! - and the perspective I got in that session on my stich was very important.
I expect in a 2nd session he would have helped me with a plan. And I should have taken that session because I don't have a plan now. Even though WW tearfully apologized, agreed to NC with OM I'm afraid that this will not be a good recovery because I'm giving up too much. We're going to talk to SH next week and get a plan from him then.
Enough about me - try SH is what I'm trying to say. Based on my own experience and the great advice I see on the board I'd say you're like me - you need to get to a place where you feel like you don't NEED her. NEED the marriage. And you can't arrive there through anger. Are you truly able to see the woman you love through all of this?? That is the hardest part for me. To see that woman through all the garbage. And love her wihout sacrificing anything of myself. I'm not 100% in balance on that front for sure but I can see that's where I need to be.
If any gurus think I'm off, tell me.
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I think I am there to a certain extent. By that I mean I don't need her at all - and I don't need the marriage.
I guess I would like to stay married, but I don't need it anymore - and I certainly don't need her.
I actually think I did get there through anger. I'm not a psychologist, but my understanding is that anger is a result of other emotions. Don't know what those are in my case, but they are there. Maybe I got there through those emotions - whatever they are.
I also try to remember what someone on here said: "Whoever cares least about a relationship controls it". I am trying to be the one who cares least. I am trying to be sure she knows that. (Maybe an LB, I don't know).
Just had a long conversation with W. May have actually made some progress. I think we agreed on one thing: We have both done/not done things in our past that have affected the way we feel about each other today. We don't feel the way we used to or the way we want to feel. We don't know for sure whether this can ever be "fixed", but we both want to try to "fix" it. We don't really know how.
Seems to me we should read HNHN etc. and start consciously working to meet each others EN's and avoiding LB's. That is what I suggested to her. She has not read as much of this stuff as I have, so she needs to look at it. So, I am going to try to work on it from that standpoint and see what happens.
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Would it be considered a LB if I said this to my W:
"I would like to work on our M and I hope we can work it out. But, at the same time, I really don't give a rat's [censored]. I am prepared for a D and if it happens, that's OK too."
That is true, by the way.
This would be in response to some crap from her (a/k/a a "shi* sandwich") about what I would have to do to make this work - when she doesn't think she has to do much. I don't want her to think that I want it anymore than she does. I'd actually like her to think I want it less. I am tired of eating the shi* sandwichs.
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19 - there might be a better way to say this that is healthier for YOU and the M. I think the 'who cares less' is a slippery slope towards resentment. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with caring more for the relationship than your WS.
All of us posting here clearly are caring more for the relationship that the WS. If I tried to show that I cared less I KNOW I'd become resentful. Then everything I said or did would be tainted by the resentment.
I admire what it is you want to say. It looks like it's important for you to say at this stage. But why are you saying it? As an act to show show her you don't care when you really do?
I would wait for a response from someone wiser than I before you unload this. My 2 cents.
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Dude,
That last post is EXACTLY what I mean about being wishy-washy. The first step in the MB process is deciding -- with resolve -- that you DO want to work it out, and that you WILL do the hard work necessary.
Without that first step -- the rest is meaningless. (For a better explanation of that... go read rprynne's second post on pg 14 of the "Willard F Harley is a smart man!" thread started by Pepperband." He spells it out very well. And he, by the way, is a fellow BH of yours).
It's very rare to find a couple here... in the early stages of the game... where both have already made that committment. Ususally, one or the other must lead.
Since your wife has yet to acknowledge her EA, and is very likely still in the fog, YOU are going to have to be the one to step up to the plate. Or not. Only you can decide. But you need to decide. One way or the other.
All this "I guess I still want to be married" stuff just won't cut it.
--SC
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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Sc - I wouldn't call it wishy-washy - I don't want her to think she has the upper-hand. I don't want her to see what I say as begging, groveling or anything similar.
I am taking the lead. She just mopes around and whines and makes crappy comments every few hours. Not a lot, but enough to piss me off.
She has committed to work on it - but I don't want to make it too easy for her - because I don't want to be seen as a doormat and I think that is unattractive to her - does that make sense?
I think she will be more responsive if I let her know I don't really care as much as I did 3 mos. ago - which is true.
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I don't want her to think she has the upper-hand. I don't want her to see what I say as begging, groveling or anything similar. Set solid personal boundaries. Define them clearly to her. "These are my expectations in order for us to have a fulfilling marriage." Respect and honesty are musts. She just mopes around and whines and makes crappy comments every few hours. Not a lot, but enough to piss me off. I think she's pushing your buttons because she can. It makes her feel she has control and gives her the upper hand. "I know I'll make him angry if I say x y z." Stop being predictable and keep her on her heels. Don't get angry the next time she says x y z, just look at her like she's grown a second head. but I don't want to make it too easy for her - because I don't want to be seen as a doormat and I think that is unattractive to her - does that make sense? If you hold this over her head you're signing the divorce decree right now. You commit to working on the M and the R because you love and respect your wife, not because you want to cause her pain and torment. Having said that, I know it's difficult as a BS to not lash out and be hurtful because of the pain that you have been caused. You're probably right. Although I don't know your wife, I also don't know many, if any, women who enjoy being with a wimp of a man. BUT, if you have solid personal boundaries in place, and you stick to them the doormat thing isn't an issue. I think she will be more responsive if I let her know I don't really care as much as I did 3 mos. ago - which is true. Absolutely. Be open and honest. I can't remember if I said it in this thread or not, but be mindful of the difference between brutal honesty and radical honesty. Brutal - "I don't give a rats [email]a@@.[/email] If you want to work on it, fine, if not, you were lookin for a marriage when you found this one." This comes off tarnished and bitter and gives her no incentive. Radical - "I don't feel the same way about you that I did 3 months ago. This is what I feel differently about...(insert explaination here)." This gives her a chance to respond without pushing your buttons and shows that you still care. Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
~~One day at a time is all we're given. Just deal with today and let God have tomorrow.~~
Me = 32 FWH in 1996. Current BH
Her = 33 FWW
DS 15
DD 11
DS 7
Discovery March 29, 2006
Recovery and proud of it!
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