First, I really think her IC is OK - I think she has discouraged the EA from the beginning. She won't condemn her for it, but I really don't think she has done anything but discourage it. But I could be wrong. She has also told W that if we separated she thinks W would miss me and we'd get back together.

When I told W that I told OMW, if I remember correctly, she said "Why did you do that?" in an astonished tone of voice - she was not expecting it at all - then she started asking me questions and we got into it for a good 2.5 hours - and I don't mean yelling and screaming - she actually never really got mad - teared up a few times, but never really mad. I was mad and I am sure I LB'd quite a bit.

Is that what you meant by your question?

19, I hope the IC does truly help her SAVE HER MARRIAGE, rather than make herself feel good about being bad. Because more often that is what happens with your typical counselor. There are too many stories here of WS' who were led towards divorce when the marriage could have been easily saved with the guidance of a more experienced counselor. And many simply do not have a standard of right and wrong, but rather a standard of whatever feels good, do it. Hopefully, this IC is not of the latter breed, but please keep your eyes peeled.

ML - I know what you mean. I think all IC's probably try to make patients feel better about themselves, don't you think?

But, I really don't think W's is trying to make her feel good about what she has done. I know she has pointed out that OM is married etc. - I really think she has discouraged it -

I will keep an eye on it. Thanks.

19,

"Here's a question: Almost everyone said W would be furious when she found out I told OMW. I even thought she would be. Well, that was not the reaction I got from her at all. She wasn't mad""
"Anyone have any thoughts on why that is?""


Maybe because "deep inside" she was already coming out of the fog?

You say she was more ashamed and worried about OMW telling other mother's... this is facing reality of her actions.

I mean, during the time it took you to expose to OMW, she has been contacting him, he back off, you were doing plan A, she had time to start feeling ashamed, guilty and most of all silly and stupid for her actions.

One of the reasons you pointed for not exposing was that things between you too were not so bad, actually better right?

Are you sure she's not acting the way she has been because she's going thru the WS pain?
Realizing how stupid she was, that after all you're the nice husband she loves, that the "EA" was not real it was nothing, etc...

Maybe she's having a hard time admiting it to herself more then anything else?
So she tries to blame you.
Then she says it was not a EA.
She tries to contact him in an atempt to validade her actions when she can't bare the blame?
Is she in any way a bit of a too proud and stubborn kind of person? having a hard time admiting and facing their own mistakes?


How is communication between you too? Is she an open person?
How are you two doing after exposure? Talking more, more openly?

Is there any chance that she's having a hard time talking openly to you?

Hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

Maybe your W wants to get out of the mess she created but she doesn't know how, having a hard time facing herself, etc?



About OM, I believe it's obvious that he's lying, did OMW believed him?

lost - A lot of what you say makes a lot of sense. I do think W is facing reality now and it's possible this was happening before exposure - I just don't know for sure. She said that she called OM 10 days before I told her I told OMW and told him she wasn't calling him anymore. I am pretty sure she did that before too, and then started calling him again. It's hard to believe anything she says since she has lied to me for 3 mos.

I do sort of think she feels silly and stupid - I guess that's good?? She is very stubborn about admitting her mistakes - always has been. I think she also minimizes what she did so she won't have to face reality. She will never admit it was a big deal - that's just how she is.

This morning she actually did say she was mad about it -said it was just another mean thing I have done to her .... whatever.....

We're doing OK, I guess, talking some. Maybe she is having a hard time facing herself, I don't know.

I am sure she would like to get herself out of this mess - I don't think she felt that way until I told OMW, but I am sure she does now.

No doubt OM is lying to a certain extent. One thing that makes an EA harder is it's probably a lot easier to lie about - sex is real clear, emotions are not. However, he absolutely lied to her about the little physical contact they did have. I am not sure where she stands right now and whether she believes everything he said.

How are you doing lost?

Here's a question: so W tells me last night that "maybe she should call OMW" - remember, W and OMW are (were) friends - known each other for 8 years probably.

Is it good or bad that she says she may want to call her?

I guess it seems good to me since it sort of shows she is facing reality here - but is that right?

Any comments?

I think that this is an attempt on her part to minimize the situation. She's probably going to tell OMW that you're delusional yada yada. The WW sometimes tries to plant those kind of suspicions in the minds of their BS and the OP if they know them.

Did you tell OMW that you had recordings of them talking and especially the part where he DID say those things he's denied saying?? You have PROOF!

coacheswife - Not only did I tell her I had recordings, we actually listened to them together.

That being said, the specific things OM denied were not on the recordings - he denied any physical contact.

He also denied ever discussing having a "crush" on W - that is very clearly implied from the tape - W asked OM "so you are over your crush on me?" OM responded "That's not a fair question..." - he lied about that too.

I got the info on physical contact from 2 sources: 1. W told me; and 2. I heard W tell a friend about it on another call I recorded (I lost that call, however, so I couldn't play it for OMW).

She should not contact her or her H ever again except to send them the no contact letter. Complete no contact. She has done enough harm to that family and should leave them alone. The reality is that nothing short of complete nc will suffice.

I don't understand why NC should include OMW?

I understand about OM, but why OMW?

Contact with OMW allows her to stay on the periphery of OM's life. It gives her a little "fix" which feeds her addiction every time she hears about him.

19, she needs to be completely AWAY from this family altogether in order to affair proof both marriages. She needs to never be around him or his family again.

It is impossible to be completely away from them.

We are bound to run into them some and we have kids / school issues.

Any ideas in light of that? (i.e. some things I can't really change - so what would you suggest to make the best of it?)

There may be some contact you can't avoid, but I would go to EXTREME lengths to avoid any contact at all.

OK. W is starting whine more about my telling OMW - says "what good did you think that would do?" and "it was crappy for me to go do that..."

I keep telling her (a) I did it to help save our M by helping to kill the EA and helping to ensure it never comes back and (b) because OMW deserve to know

As far as the "crappy" comment, I tell her it was even more crappy for her to keep calling OM for 2 mos. and lying to me repeatedly that she wasn't and taking cookies to his office....she does say, "yes it was"

Any other ideas on responses to her comments (trying not to LB as much as I can...)

Don't try to reason with her. Do not try to refute her.

Remember, you're not dealing with a rational person. She drove 45 miles to deliver cookies.

Whenever she makes the "crappy" comments, you calmly reply, "I understand your concern."

WAT

"yes, it was crappy to have an affair with her husband. Sorry you are so upset, dear."

Then leave it at that. Like WAT said, it is a WASTE OF TIME to try and reason with her.

I will try that.

Here's another one: How should "Tough Love" fit in with Plan A. I am sort of trying to do both. I try to Plan A, but at the same time I want her to know, in no uncertain terms, I am not sure what I want right now.

I don't want to be a doormat and I want her to know that it is just as likely that I will D her as she will D me. I think she knows that right now.

The first few weeks after dday, I wasn't doing that. It was me always saying we had to work on it etc. and her saying it needed to change or she didn't want to be married blah blah blah.

After 3 weeks or so of hearing that, I said well I do too .... I know that jolted her. Not enough that she stopped calling OM, but I know it did (because I heard her tell a friend).

So, is that LB'ing?

ML - Don't worry - I've said that - although next time I will add the "sorry you are so upset dear".

By the way, she has tried to call OMW today. OMW couldn't answer, but she did see her number flash up and she called me. I don't know what W is going to tell her - W won't tell me (OMW will tell me, however. She is telling me everything, and vice versa).

Don't know what will happen with that.

19, go take a look at the lovebuster list. It isn't a lovebuster to be honest with your W. But let me point something out to you. You are angry today, but you won't be angry in 6 months. Your anger is temporary, whereas divorce is VERY permanent. If you had a good marriage BEFORE this all happened, chances are very likely that you can have a GREAT marriage if you follow this program.

Can you at least commit to a period of 12 months of really trying before you make a decision?

I really do wish you would consider counseling with Steve Harley. He can set you on the right path towards recovery. I think that both of you feel somewhat hopeless right now because you are both so confused. Steve Harley could help you here. He can do in one session what other counselors cannot do in 10 sessions.