Hello 19,

Radical Honesty.

You two are playing games.
You're tired of all this and you just want her to admit the EA, to tell you how wrong and sorry she is, you want it to come from her so you can believe it. (how much time saved if the WS would realize this before it’s too late)

One day she wants expensive rings the other she tells you she wants to die..
She's probably just to confused and ashamed, and yes she probably fears that you don’t love her anymore because this is what she feels coming from you. She probably even fears how life will be like if she admits the affair and fears how will you deal with it in the future (LB), from that point she’ll be the bad person the one to be pointed, she’s no longer the good wife complaining about her H lack of attention, etc. (you need to share with her that you believe in a happy future)
She's probably also too stuborn and being childish. (Some times it’s easier to admit our mistakes to strangers then to those we love)
She wants to come out of all this in power and control because of fear and her strong personality..

Or maybe a bit of the above and also she’s just waiting for you to show her you still love her and that you two can make it. That you wont use her mistake against her in the future.

You're not going anywhere until radical honesty is actually being followed by the two of you.

If you're not ready to take the first step you migh actually go for D. Do you REALLY want it? you don't know. But deep inside, do you?... you have to find this answer and go from there, if you want to save your marriage you have to loose some of your pride and be the first to show your true feelings.

If she’s not admiting the EA you have to be the one to force her, show her the list, she can't deny the EA with that. Use all you have to get what you want.

I can relate to all you're feeling right now... As I type I try to convince myself to do it, because I know it's the right thing to do.
But it’s damn hard to act emotionally upon rational decisions, to show love when deep inside I don’t feel it, it’s so hard to loose my pride and move on. It’s really hard to be the hurt and betrayed and still be the one to take the first steps… I do feel stupid and weak.


It would be emotionally so much easier to go for D… but is that what I really want 1 or 2 years from now? Will it be fair for my girls?
I know it’s in my hands right now to save my M. I just have to shallow it and move on… loose my pride and take the RISK, hopefully I will be recovered and will have a much better M some day. (really hard to imagine but I have to give it a try)

My H is on the other side of planet for 6 or 7 days now, and it feels so good. Do I miss him? I don’t know, I guess I miss the H I had before the Affairs… I sure don’t miss our life for the past 4 months and less the liar who destroyed the good R we had during the past two years. I know it’s hard to believe… but until his first ONS we were still so much in love and so proud of it. We had such a great R, such a great SF life that I really feel it hard to believe we can even reach half of what we had… But I have to take the risk and be sure to myself that I gave all I had to make it work.

I didn't know that about Bear Bryant. A good thing to know the next time the Crimson Tide is on the schedule. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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19, I think if you aren't on anti-depressants, you probably should be. They'll help your mood and give you more patience.

I think you're doing fine with the boundary talk and refusing to minimize the effect of her adultery. It's right out of Pepper's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A." Keep it up.

At the same time, most of her comments you've relayed to us are right out of the Wayward Spouse Handbook. "He's a friend...you're controlling...not sure I want to work on the marriage..." They're not very original.

I'm really surprised she hasn't said something like "because you exposed, I don't trust you anymore." WW will get over her anger about the OMW knowing, btw. Someday she'll even see the irony of being mad about exposure to OMW for a relationship your WW describes as "just a friend(ship)."

(BTW, how about leaving Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D., lying on the coffee table unopened? Don't refer to it in conversation...let her curiosity do the work.)

Anyway, yeah…it's all fog, all the time. You can take it, 19, because it means nothing. Let it go right past you without bothering to notice because it's ALL from a script. Get on AD's and just watch the stage play work itself out.

If you're certain, very certain, you've exposed to everyone who can influence this, then you're ready to drop into Plan A. So, tell us what you're doing for yourself. How are you making yourself better? Remember, Plan A seems to be all about the WS, but it's really much about the BS.

Have you set up a workout routine to tone up those slack muscles and lose those extra couple of pounds you've been meaning to? How about that workshop in the garage? Is it about ready? What's your first woodworking project? Or maybe you've finally bought that first classic you've always wanted to read because you know it'll improve your mind? Get the picture?

Use this time for Plan A to make yourself as "attractive" a person as you can become even while you make your home as attractive a place as it can be for WW. What's your time limit, btw, for Plan A. Six months is the average for a man to implement Plan A, but you might adjust it up or down according to your needs.

I hope I've given you something to think about. I know things look awfully dark from your vantage point and life isn't much fun right now. It'll get better but you have to live through the process one minute at a time and no one can do that for you. Take refuge in your children, 19, cultivate a deeper relationship with your family, work on YOU. Use this time in your life, okay?

lost - I think a lot of what you say is right and I actually was trying to make the first move when the call started and I told her I was sorry for treating her like I have for 15 years.

I met with my IC this morning and he, like you, thought I would probably have to make the first move as hard as it would be to do. That is what I was trying to do and it didn't work. IC also thinks I will need to do this more than once - maybe that is right? Probably have to do it over and over again.

I don't really care if she admits EA - the problem is that it makes a lot of things harder for her not to admit it - if those weren't harder, then I really wouldn't care.

I don't know what I want in 1 - 2 years. Probably to still be married to W if I had to say. More for the kids than anything else at this point.

Of course, part of problem also is that I am also furious with W - furious about being lied to repeatedly about NC - and furious about the contact that happened after she said she wouldn't.

I guess you are right - if I don't continue to make the first move, we're not going to make it. While I think I want us to make it, I really don't want to make the first more - or continue to do it - but I guess I have to anyway, don't I?

I know how you feel about them being gone - W is leaving town for a long weekend and I am actually excited about it. I didn't use to be. Of course, I don't trust her anymore so that's an added worry when she goes on a trip without me that I didn't used to have.

LH - I am on AD's - have been since about Feb 23 or so. I think they are helping, but hard to tell.

I like to hear about the "WS Handbook" - from reading other stuff on here, it does appear that lots of what W has to say is typical of WS's. That's good to know.

I've got the picture about Plan A. I am trying to do that stuff. As far as a time limit, is that applicable if the EA is truly over? If there is really NC? If there is no A, then what do you do when the time limit is up? There wouldn't really be a reason to go to Plan B then, would there?

Quote:
I don't really care if she admits EA - the problem is that it makes a lot of things harder for her not to admit it - if those weren't harder, then I really wouldn't care.
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It’s important that she admits the EA to you. That’s the only way IMO for you two to start the Radical Honesty policy. Only after she opens herself completely you can start rebuilding you M, your intimacy and your trust.

Confront her with the list and tell her that you’re not interested in “blaming”accusing or anything, tell her you just need a strong honest base to start recovering and achieve the good M you believe you two can achive. Tell her you want to leave all this behind but for it you need her to be totally honest and open to you. Tell her you don’t want to play “power” or guilt games.

Tell her that this is the only way on the long run that you wont be trowing her EA at her in the future. You need closure of it. If she never admits it to you this will never end, you will always ressent it.

Tell her you understand that this “fantasy” in some way happened because you didn’t had the best M for the last couple years (not 15) but that you’re willing to work on your past mistakes. As she needs to assume her own mistakes so that it wont happen again.

This is what I believe it to be your first BIG FIRST STEP, even if in some way you already told her this before.

Right now I hate him but I don’t think that I really don’t love my H right now. I locked the love feelings very deep till I am sure I am “safe” to let them come out when I feel he is being honest and dedicated to the M, and mostly when the hurt and proud BS in me feels him trully aware and admiting how bad his actions were. Till then I really hate him. As long as he takes him to reassure me this hatred feelings will keep developing and the harder will be for me to even forgive myself for accept him after what he did, the greater my pride will be and the harder for me fo fight it.

Can you feel it in you hidden or locked somewhere? Maybe close to the good times memories? I think it’s there, I believe I saw it when you posted how you guys met and fell in love.
But this is not that important right now. Just keep it there.

Why dont you want to tell her about the list?

It's the proof it was an EA.

lost - Maybe I have not been clear enough about what W has admitted - she doesn't call it an EA, but she will admit that she had an inappropriate relationship and that it lasted "5 miunutes". She doesn't mean 5 min literally, but that they went back to really being just friends very quickly.

I don't necessarily believe that, but I guess she has basically admitted to the EA, she is just minimizing it to a large extent. I am not sure I need much more in terms of an admission.

I want to keep the list to myself for now. I know that will piss her off and I don't think that's a good idea right now.

I know what you mean about the hate - I think I do feel that way right now - hiding the other feelings - maybe W is too? That may actually be a very good way to describe it -

Good. Stay on the AD's. They're probably working better than you imagine. Don't go off them without your doctor's help, btw. It's dangerous. Also, if they don't seem to be doing the job, talk to your doctor. He/She might be able to adjust the dose or put you on an alternative.

As far as the "Handbook" goes, here is a link to a thread that refers to an article from another site that I've thought of as the handbook ever since I saw it. It's for entertainment only, but see what you think.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...0&fpart=all

Your wife has not agreed to NC, 19. You bet, if she agreed to NC and actively supported NC, there'd be no need for Plan A, except that it makes you a better person no matter what the reason for implementing it.

If she hasn't agreed to NC, she's still involved in the big A. You've set your boundary on not having this other man in your marriage. You have to respect that boundary if you want her to, don't you?

If Plan A works, she will come to agree she will respect your boundary and change jobs so she won't ever have contact with him again. You're right. If that happens, there's no need for Plan B.

A final caution: I understand where LW is coming from but be very, very careful about "forcing" your wife to admit she's in an EA right now. If you confront her and DEMAND she admit wrongdoing, you're not following MB principles...and it ain't a' gonna work.

For one thing, she's not ready yet. Baby steps, 19. If she was, she’d have admitted it to your when you confronted her with your knowledge of the affair. Listen, man. You don't change people's attitudes with demands and force. Plan A's guidelines specifically require you to NOT make disrespectful judgments. Neither do you give her ultimatums. Your ultimatums are rooted in anger and they automatically generate anger in response, Read about Plan A. Angry outbursts are another thing you cannot indulge yourself with.

Huh uh. Chip away at her stubborn contention they were "just friends." That's why I suggested leaving Dr. Glass's book lying around. If you "force" her, if you demand she read that book, she'll see it as controlling, she'll resent it, and she'll back away from you more than she is right now.

Patience, 19, what's a good cliché to use here...Rome wasn't built in a day? How 'bout that one? Look, the conditions for your wife's inappropriate relationship didn't come about in a day; the salvage of your marriage isn't going to happen overnight either.

You're in there for the long haul, pardner. Settle in and do some things for yourself and do a fantastic Plan A for your marriage, okay?

Because she is pissed in general about my snooping and I just don't see that it would do enough good to outweigh the bad in pissing her off - It's definitely evidence of an EA, but she'll just downplay that too - so, I don't think it is worth it at this point.

LH - Thanks. They actually have already adjusted the dosage of my AD's once and I really do think they help.

I hate taking them, but I am not stopping without discussing with my doctor (and I have no plans to even consider it for 6-12 months).

W does not work - so that's not an issue here (she doesn't work with OM). And she has agreed to NC, it's just if she happens to run into OM - which undoubtedly will happen sometime -

I do need to be careful with the demands etc. I have gotten much better with the LB's over the past 10 days or so. Probably not perfect, but much better (I was not good for awhile).

Unfortunately, I think you are right about "baby-steps" - I'm not a very patient person, so that's sort of hard for me to deal with, but I guess it's true.

Either way, I guess it will take awhile.

19, NC must...it MUST be a boundary you can never allow to slide. I know she's downplaying it right now, but it's not a little thing. If she EVER runs into the OM she has to leave that place and IMMEDIATELY get to you and let you know. There is no option. I know of a FWH who was shopping at a supermarket and saw the FOW across the way. He walked away from a full basket, out of the store, and directly to his wife to inform her of the inadvertent contact.

Look, read KiwiJ's current thread if you don't believe me. She was a thoroughly repentent FWW who was active in helping many people work through the wreckage of infidelity. She ran into the FOM one day, spoke to him, and never told her husband. Now she's had two dates with the OM, she can't tell her husband, and she's pretty sure her marriage is now over.

Work hard on the requirments for no disrespectful judgments, no angry outbursts, etc. It will pay BIG dividends down the line and your current frustrations won't even be memories.

It WILL take a while, pardner, but you can do it. You've made tremendous progress already.

Longhorn - You posted this on another thread:



Would you elaborate on what you mean by that?

In my case, I think I gave W the impression that my exposure to OMW was vindictive to a certain extent - things I said at the time I told her would have given her that impression -

Any ideas on what I can do to fix that?

193296, but it wasn't a vindictive exposure, it was a perfectly necessary exposure. You had SOUND reasons to do so. Please don't second guess yourself about that. What Bob is referring to, I think, are stupid, mean exposures where the BS passes out fliers, etc. Yours was absolutely legitimate. Your W is simply angry because a) you interfered in her affair and b) she is embarrassed that she has been busted.

Thank you for your kind words on that other thread. I didn't initially see them and appreciate your defense. That means alot to me, 19. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can you call Dr. Harley on his radio show and get his input about your situation? It is a free call. He took a call today about a similar situation and I think he could give you some good ideas on how to break the ice with your W. If you send them an email, they will read your email on air and ask you to call in. If you decide to do it, send to [email]jharley@marriagebuilders.com.[/email]

19, if you expose your spouse's adultery as a way of getting back at them, it puts you on the same level as the adulterer. That's a low place to be indeed. Exposing gleefully, vindictively, is revenge and revenge cannot be anything but hurtful to someone. Pain returned in the same, or greater, measure for pain received will not serve a betrayed spouse in his or her efforts to bring the wayward spouse back “home.”

I know. The desire for retribution is undeniably strong but it must be resisted. Examine the urge within you, acknowledge its existence…and then put it away because it will hurt you in the end more than it hurts the wayward spouse. If you let it come out, it validates the wayward spouse’s feelings that the betrayed spouse is scum, cruel, doesn’t love them, is controlling, etc., etc.

If you grit your teeth and do the exposure in a matter-of-fact way, letting the pain be seen but never losing control, you gain points with the person to whom you are exposing. They see you as a human being and it defuses a wayward spouse’s attempt to demonize you. That’s one of the immediate rewards.

Down the line, you will not have added a lot of disrespectful judgments to a list of them you have to deal with when the alien gives up your wife. When she’s back, you and she don’t have to wade through a morass of angry words and wounded egos. You get to press on with the advancement of your marital recovery.

I don’t say there can’t be some satisfaction in exposing. Sometimes, it’s a relief because the betrayed spouse has been holding it in so long. Additionally, it gets the truth “out there” to counter the foggy lies the alien has been spreading. Satisfaction at a job well done, though, is as far as it should go.

If you think you may have stepped over the line when you and your wife discussed your exposure, apologize. An apology takes the winds out of their sails because you admit what you did “wrong.” Tell her simply that you exposed because you love her, because you want to be married to her for the rest of your life, and you had to do what you did in order to remove that third person from your marriage. You can say you’re sorry for the way your discussion of exposure came across and that you’re working on not saying things in a way that can hurt.

Okay, does that explain it any better? I have a bad tendency to get long-winded. Some simply say I just don’t know when to shut up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope I haven’t confused rather than explain.

I think that unfortunatlely it is an impossibility that exposure is NOT seen in some way as "vindictive" by the wayward.

The best advice I can give is to present the exposure as all business and FACTS with as little emotion as possible. Please remember that you will NOT garner any medals or "atta boys" from the exposed wayward. Don't expect any congratulations.....just anger and vitriol. If you DON'T get that...then I would worry. The opposite of love is NOT hate...it is indifference. An important point to remember.

LM

Agree LM..

If a WSs reaction to exposure is "Yeah, pretty much" or "fair enough"..I'd sweat..I admit it.

Heh, wonder if that will make an BSs on the brink feel better.

I'm talking more from the exposer's point of view, folks. You're absolutely correct the exposee is going to view it as outrageously cruel and vindictive. That doesn't make it true though.

ML - You are welcome and thank you too. I would not have said it if I didn't believe it. You have helped me tremendously in a terrible time and I appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All - Thanks.

First, ML, I am not second-guessing what I did at all - the minute she told me about the "cookie trip" all my doubts of whether I had done the right thing were gone for good.

Second, all, I don't at all think I told OMW for vindictive reasons or for revenge.

However, when I told W, a couple of bad things were happening: (a) we were at a bar/restaurant and I had been drinking all afternoon - stupid to tell her then, I know, but it happened, (b) when I asked her flat out if she had seen or talked to him she said twice: "I don't want to answer that", and (c) she finally did answer and told me she had been to his office to take him cookies about 5 days before I told OMW. His office is 45 minutes away - not an easy trip.

While my intentions were good, the combination of (a), (b) and (c) made me extremely mad and I said things I should not have said. Those things made it sound like revenge was one of the main reasons I told OMW. I can see how she could come to that conclusion.

So, the way it happened when I told W is what I did wrong.

I have apologized to her for those comments and explained what I just said above. I guess I need to keep doing that when it comes up.

Third, I guess I should be glad she is mad - sort of. She wasn't mad at all for the first 3 days or so, then she got mad. I guess that is better than indifference, isn't it? I am also hoping there is some withdrawal/fog etc. going on here.

Thanks.

Actually something positive - W goes to see IC today. She calls me afterward, we talk and I don't ask her about it at all. I can tell when she hangs up that she is surprised by something. She calls me back 5 min later and says "You didn't ask me what I talked to IC about?"

It was intentional, of course. She has told me before she doesn't like me to ask - so I didn't.

She did tell me a little of what they talked about - focusing on my good points. I guess that's good.