sc, I don't understand why you keep calling him wishy washy; he's not. If you imagine this is supposed to be EASY to endure, then you clearly don't understand what it is like. Just because he is getting worn down does not mean he's "wishy washy." It means he is a HUMAN BEING who is naturally very tired of being in an abusive relationship.

19, I think you have to be honest with her. RADICALLY HONEST. And tell her your true feelings. Let her know that her lack of committment to the marriage is causing you to question YOUR OWN committment. Tell her that unless you start seeing some sign of some committment, that your feelings are not likely to improve, but to erode further.

Just be honest. And tell her this, not to manipulate her, but to open up an honest dialogue. She needs to understand that she is wearing you down, 19.

19, do you have Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley? What MB books do you have?

Drex - Thanks. I am really not holding over her head - it's more of a defense when she starts complaining about how I have acted in the past (which I honestly believe she has exaggerated greatly in her mind - but I can't change that). Like it's all my fault and she has done nothing.

She'll say: "After all the way you have treated me for so long, I'm not sure I will ever feel that way about you again..." (meaning the way she felt a long time ago etc. - the way I want her to feel).

I just want to make it clear to her that in order for it to work (which I want) she has to work too. I can't do it alone after all the crap she has done. And, I may not ever feel the same way about her either - and she needs to know that and take ownership over her actions too.

Does that make more sense?

I agree w/ML - 19 you're not being wishy-washy but I think you might be losing sight of your motivation. Don't play games. Doing so gets you away from your truth. I know I sound like Ghandi but thinking in terms of what my truth is and then acting on it has been VERY important.

Have you read your Lovinganyway in the "...dooms day..." thread? I really think it will help you. Pay special attention to "separate but equal".

ML - Thanks. I understand what you are saying. I don't really consider it abusive, though. It just bugs the crap out of me.

Particularly when she says: "After the way you have acted, I may never feel that way about you again....." - like she is perfect. Earlier today, in a very nice way, I told her I felt exactly the same way.

There is definitely a side of me that wants to take the George Costanza approach and be sure it's me who pulls the plug..... not bad enough to do it, however.

The Harley books I have are SAA, HNHD and Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I have read parts of all of them, but probably not all of any. I think W is the same. We also went to a 3 day MC seminar in March which used Fall in Love, Stay in Love as part of the course.

Of course W was still in contact with OM then, so that was all for naught in my book.

Does your wife think Harley is a quack?

19 -

What I think got to my WW was when I said - "I don't want what we had. I don't want to go back. I want something BETTER, DIFFERENT. I don't want to put the pieces back together I want someting NEW. If we can't do that then I don't want this M either. But I want you to know that I believe we can have something WONDERFUL. Unbelievably GOOD. In order for us to create something new, I have to change the way I was treating you - I'm doing that. Is there anything I can do better? And your part in this is to stop contact with the OM" or whatever her next step is.

I wouldn't paint a picture of how difficult this is going to be just yet. She'll be overwhelmed. Help her move through in baby-steps. Have the vision for her.

You have to have the vision for her. Because she doesn't have the vision now. Someone said that WSs have lost their vision of how the marriage could be. You have to show her the way. Be the "lighthouse" as someone put it in my thread. Be her hero.

Good suggestion, MDC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, but she thinks everyone on these boards is a "kook" (her word).

I don't really think she totally buys into all of it, however. I think the majority of it is very logical stuff that makes a ton of sense.

MDC - That's a pretty good way to put it. You know she was sort of talking like that back in early Feb - right after dday. Maybe that's a better way to put it. That, together with what ML said about her wearing me down to where I am questioning my commitment. I will try to remember those.

I have sort of tried that before (about starting over etc.). Gave her a very nice present a few weeks ago to sort of symbolize that - while she was still talking to OM, of course - the same present I really want to take back now - (cut it off her arm) but which I am not since ML told me it would be a huge LB.

It may be a long weekend ....

If you want these words to eventually stop, please listen and do what I'm about to tell you. First, let her know you can't change generalities. Tell her you are dense and you need her to give you specific behaviors when she makes statements like that.

"Sweetheart, I know some/many/all/a few (pick one or come up with your own) of my past actions were hurtful to you. I am truely sorry to have caused you that pain."

You just validated her feelings. You won't BELIEVE how far that goes.

"I understand now that I was hurting you. I'm sorry it came to this for me to realize I was an overall putz/jerk/doofas (pick one or come up with your own)."

Validated and understood now. Who is this man talking to me?

"I am having a hard time remembering all of the things that putz/jerk/doofas did because he didn't take notes and fell asleep in class. Can I count on you to help me by pointing out the spicific things that upset you in our 'current' relationship so that I can try not to repeat them?"

Now, you've interjected light humor into an otherwise serious situation which prevents you from getting mad, AND you asked for her help to change your hurtful behaviors. If she says she'll help you, now she has committed to share the responsibility of changing those habits. PLUS, you deflected her dwelling on something that happened 10 years ago. What in the world has he been smoking?!

Certainly, if she brings up or mentions a specific past or present behavior that is a LB for her, don't get defensive, own up to it, don't justify it, apologize and ask her forgiveness for that specific thing. I promise she'll be able to forgive smaller individual things a whole lot easier than forgiving the entire past all in one fail swoop.

The converse is also true. You have to tell her when she does something as well that upsets you. And by golly the first thing I would tell her is, "You know, when I tell you how I feel about something and you react this certain way, it takes away my desire to communicate with you openly and honestly. I would really love/like/appreciate it if when I express my feelings, you could validate them and respect them."

Gotta go get dinner started so I'll prolly be back on Monday. Gonna play cideo games with WW and kids tonight, then taking WW out tomorrow night after we spend some "undivided attention" time cleaning our office.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Standing for your marriage and setting and maintaining boundaries is never a LB get that out of your mind.

Just keep telling her calmly that you refuse divorce or her behaviour, (acting like you are to blame for her EA and the denial) fog - you intend to do all you can to rebuild this marriage into a better one.

You are slap bang in the middle of normal - worn out - not trusting your own judgment - irritated beyond belief by her constant insinuations that somehow she is doing nothing wrong and you are the problem.

Do you know what the 180 is - you should be doing some of it right now. Don't do any that conflict with MB - but the others will rebuild your self esteem and help you stand calmly for yourself in this storm of misery.

As a side effect it makes you look less needy and more independent of her - so that often helps things along.

Here it is. Use what works. I talked to Dr. Bill Thursday - in a few minutes he set me straight about feeling I needed to desensitize myself - their constant insinuations will make you feel that way - and he gave me a plan - radical - but direct and no nonsense.


I didn't ask him about the 180 - it isn't from him - but it has kept me sane for the last four years - I use it when I begin to find I am thinking it is so nice for him to be out or when I begin to get so worn down I doubt myself.

SP

------------------180 begins here-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 180 helps you do a 180 turn around to the way you were when your spouse met you and wanted you - also it gives you a raised self esteem which makes you more in control of how you react, instead of being stuck in a pattern of negative responses and feelings. it works well with either plan A or a modified plan B when they will not leave the house and you do not want to. First you start with these rules or as I do, those that do not conflict with Marriage Builders process. Then you may add some of your own to change other responses you have, if there are other behaviours your spouse plays on that put you down - whether they do it consciously or unconsciously. So go ahead and do as many as you can for as long as you can - if you don't need them at some point, you can take a break, but if things get bad again - get back on the 180 horse and ride like the wind - LOL

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

Do a search for her site and join the forum for more help and support regarding this. This is the beginning list.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow spouse around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse's whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if your spouse notices and, more important, realize what they will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear from them and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.

This works - LindaBB

I have actually seen the 180 stuff before - I think I will try some of it.

We had a decent night last night - not much R talk, but some. Went out for a late dinner and did talk some. In the course of that, I did tell her that if she wanted to separate, she could move out.

Don't recall how we got to that, since she didn't say she wanted that and neither did I. Anyway, it came up somehow and I made that clear. In a nice way.

I also did OK with LB's - I think. Not sure I had any.

19 -

Congrats on what sounds like a good evening.

Thanks - but it wasn't that good.

So today, W tells me she wants some earrings - specific earrings that are expensive as he11 - I let her get them. ("let" is not the right word, but it needed to be a joint decision).

If her attitude doesn't improve tonight ....

Pretty nervy to tell me how mad she is at me yesterday and then ask for expensive jewelry today.... don't you think?

Hopefully, you GLADLY gave her the earrings! Tell her how HAPPY you are that she got the earrings, and how beautiful she looks in them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess I did - I wouldn't say "gladly" I actually resented the he11 out of it. The way she is acting right now why would / should I want to give her something that nice?

Don't forget that around March 9 I gave her an early anniversary present that was a very nice piece of jewelry too - a lot nicer that the earrings which are also very nice. Of course she was still talking to OM and lying about it. I don't ever feel like buying her jewelry again - and one thing I have been very good about is buying her presents.

My point is that these are things we don't go out and buy on a daily basis and I can't believe her nerve in even asking if she could get them right now with the way she has been treating me and what she has done.

Also, on Friday, she told me she didn't want to have SF right now - because she's mad at me for telling OMW. It's already been a couple of weeks for a variety of reasons - but to tell me that adds insult to injury.

Now she keeps saying she needs a necklace to go with the earrings - should I buy her that too? (I really can't afford it right now - but I could swing it).

Is it reasonable to think she could still be mad at me for telling OMW? It's been 2 weeks.

Geeze, I know it's not very Plan Aish and i do think buying the earrings was a good thing, but now she's asking for a necklace to go with it?...I think I did a pretty decent Plan A but I don't think I would have taken too kindly to those type of requests..specially since she is so 'angry' with you...I don't think 'buying' the WS back is part of Plan A and this smacks of a little too doormat for me..I'm probably wrong, and maybe I'm just a little bitter still over the infidelity, but I took the Christmas present that I bought my WH back to the store 2 days later, he wasn't thrilled with it anyway, and he sure as ****** didn't deserve it after he got me nothign for Christmas..and that was BEFORE I found out he bought the skank a $100 piece of jewelry...sorry, maybe a trigger for me, but I'd tell her she can get the necklace when you can afford it..you gotta give her credit for nerve I guess...

Trigger is an understatement for me - the whole bracelet thing pisses me off so bad that I can't stand it - I'd like to cut it off her arm with a saw -

I couldn't believe it when she said she wanted the earrings - I am downplaying the necklace -

If Plan A includes buying the WS, then I should be through - I have spent enough to buy her - I think you are right, however, it's not part of it -

As far as xmas goes, that's sort of a trigger for me now too (not as bad as for you this_hrts). I gave W a very nice xmas present - that I really didn't want to buy - and I went to a lot of trouble to buy it and hide it to make it a surprise - well, a mere 30 days later she starts the EA - now I have to see this present hanging on the wall (it was a painting).

What I keep thinking now - started this morning - what the he11 was W thinking as she drove to OM's office to take him cookies - it's at least a 45 min drive. Did she not think of the consequences of that at all? For some reason that is much worse to me than calling him on the phone. I told her I would D her if she called him again and she proceeded to drive to his office? And now she's mad at me for telling OMW? She could have turned around at any point in that drive and yet she didn't - what was she thinking?

{{What I keep thinking now - started this morning - what the he11 was W thinking as she drove to OM's office to take him cookies - it's at least a 45 min drive. Did she not think of the consequences of that at all? For some reason that is much worse to me than calling him on the phone. I told her I would D her if she called him again and she proceeded to drive to his office? And now she's mad at me for telling OMW? She could have turned around at any point in that drive and yet she didn't - what was she thinking?}}

I know it's hard as ****** to do 19, but you have to try not to obsess on this kind of stuff...believe me, I did the same thing, still do sometimes, but to try to figure out what they were 'thinking' is useless...they weren't 'thinking' about anything other than getting their fix at the time. It seems like everything else goes out the window when that's the objective.

My H did some stupid crap after D-day too and I can't tell you how many hours I wasted trying to figure out what the ****** he was thinking...I say wasted because all the obsessing I did couldn't change a thing about the past. In Surviving an Affair, Harley says that in order to get over resentment, the BS needs to leave the past in the past and move on with the plans on recovery. I know that's hard for you right now considering she's still pissed at you, but if you keep trying to fill her Love Bank and avoid those LB's, she will get over that and hopefully start putting in the effort that SHE needs to put into your M for it to get better.

I know you are right - but it is hard to stop thinking of that - she had plenty of time to stop and turn around, but she didn't

also, I wonder if she will ever get over being pissed at me?

She was pissed at me before I told OMW. Then for 2 days she wasn't - I think she was worried I was going to leave maybe.

Now she acts like she is and just sort of goes through the motions - I am trying to Plan A still and I have done much better with LB's.

Sometimes I get so mad, however, that I just want to end it. I don't want to waste the rest of my life with someone who acts like her - is this the real her or was the old her the real her? I don't know?

I also can't help but think she is embarrased since she has basically made a fool out of herself with her pursuit of OM -

Does this sound like withdrawal? Now that it appears there really has been NC since about April 13?