19, do you really think that her excuse that "I only called the OM because you told me not to" is a rational explanation for carrying on an affair? Do you really think that anything in your marriage was to blame for her affair? C'mon, lets get real here. There is NEVER a valid reason for having an affair. Having an affair is not the answer to an unhappy marriage. That is just nonsense.

She is doing exactly what EVERY newly busted WS is doing: she is blameshifting and rationalizing bad behavior. She is rewriting history in order to make you the BAD GUY instead of herself.

Because that's what froggy people do....they blow it up bigger than it was...AND WANT TO DWELL ON IT FOREVER INSTEAD OF FACING WHAT THEY'VE DONE!!!!!!!

I agree with ML. She's using the 'ol "the best defense is a good offense" strategy. Very common among active WS's.

I am not a liar by nature. I'm very open and honest. But, during my A I was a consummate liar. Not to mention an Emmy-worthy actress. I was stunned at how easy it was to deflect my H's attention from my behavior and make him feel guilty about his. (I can't tell you how ashamed I am to admit that....even after 12 years.)

She's trying to deflect from her A activity (past, present and future) by pointing at your "shortcomings". Do NOT let her distract you, 19.

Lori

ML - I agree with you - but - I do think my part in our M helped make her vulnerable to the A - isn't that part of it?

Some of what she is saying she was saying before the EA - just not as specific and not as bad.

And while I agree that she is the bad guy - I think I may be too - or (and please answer this honestly) - do you think I believe that now just because she has told me that so much lately? (maybe I am being wimpy)

19, please just drop the notion that you had ANYTHING to do with her affair. YOU DIDN'T. Like atpeace pointed out, this is just a manipulative diversion. You are not responsible for something over which YOU HAD NO CONTROL. You had NO CHOICE, therefore, NO RESPONSIBILITY. She must be made to understand this. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR AN AFFAIR.

Now, you are probably FIFTY PERCENT responsible for the state of the marriage. But guess who is responsible for the OTHER fifty percent? 3 guesses and the answer is NOT Santa Claus! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

krusht - thanks. I am not arguing about whether it's fog - I am trying to figure it out - I guess I hope it is, but I am not so sure.

We already go to MC and I am not sure he's helping that much - he's definitely pro marriage - but I am not sure he's getting us on track. We only go every other week - maybe that's not enough - he's expensive.

p.s. I have no doubt there were problems in the marriage before the affair, however, you can EXPECT a newly busted WW to EXAGGERATE your crimes in a way that portrays herself as the "victim." This way she can divert the blame to YOU.

However, just keep telling yourself this: THERE IS NEVER AN EXCUSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.

Like our first MC told my wife at our first session...

"You're right...[BS] may have done things in your marriage over the years that made you unhappy. But he didn't force you to be unfaithful. You made that choice on your own. The sooner you stop trying to blame him for your actions, the sooner you'll both be able to start fixing your marriage."

BTW...my WW (at the time) HATED this. The counselor was dead on the money...so of course my WW couldn't stand going to see her. Luckily, the fog started clearing due to other actions we were taking, so when we did go to another MC, it was effective.

Stop taking the blame for anything here. Let your wife know clearly that YOU didn't choose to do this...she did. As far as the prior state of your marriage...what did SHE do to attempt to correct the situation? Did she ask you to work on things? Try bringing in a counselor or someone who could help you both work on things? Did she do ANYTHING to improve the situation herself? Did she even tell you what was wrong, clearly and point blank so that you could do something about it?

so isn't the state of the marriage at least partially a cause of the A?

and don't get me wrong, I don't think I am responsible, but I do think the state of the marriage contributed to making her vulnerable.

I agree with atpeace too - W is as good at diversion as anyone alive - she is an expert -

I think I am just going to try to quit talking about it with W and see if we can move forward - all we do is go round and round ..... you think that's a good idea?

also, I read an email W sent a friend this week - she actually wrote: "what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive .... one of my friend's wife now hates my guts ..." (this friend knows about EA - or at least W's version of the "friendship")

The cause of the affair is YOUR WIFE'S decision to have an affair. PERIOD. Your wife is just as responsible for the state of the marriage as you.

Ask her: "is there EVER a valid excuse for having an affair?"

at peace (and anyone) - so, when she tries to distract me and deflect my attention (like you did) should I stick to talking about the A and what she did? (and not let her get me off track?)

she always says: OM is not the issue - the issue is our M and how you have treated me for the past 15 years .... I usually turn it back around when she says that - usually say, well, that may have been true 3 mos. ago, but that's not all there is to it now at all

I think she is mad at herself for changing the dynamic of our M where I actually have a valid complaint.

should be a great weekend ....

WOW, she actually says with a STRAIGHT FACE that an AFFAIR is "not the issue." I beg to differ. Even so, affairs are not the solution to marital problems.

Ask her: "is there EVER a valid excuse for having an affair?"

Owl - She didn't do much. I suggested MC. Not her.

And no, she never clearly pointed it out - "point blank" - even when given a couple of golden opportunities to do so - in connection with counseling before the A - she didn't do it.

thanks

I will try that next time it comes up - here's what her immediate response will be: "It wasn't an A"

then we'll have to go there .....

but I am going to try it anyway - maybe tonight -

Hmmmm...good question. For us, trying to discuss my A with me did no good while I was IN the A (and any contact, not just physical, constitutes continuation of an A, IMO). I wasn't gonna be open and honest about it, no matter what H said at that point. I knew in my heart I was dead wrong, but I acted as if I was the victim in the whole situation.

Without a whole lot of conversation, my H made it perfectly clear that he knew I was having an A and made it perfectly clear that it was unacceptable. He Plan A'd me but was very clear about not accepting my A any longer. His Plan A did not include acting like a door mat.

Since your wife's A has not been admitted and may be on-going in some form or other, relationship talks may not bea be very productive for you right now. IMO, your energy would be better spent on completely killing the EA and getting NC. At this point, trying to reason with her is going to feel like you're banging your head against the wall. If the A really IS totally over now, she will eventually -- little by little -- be more amenable to HONEST discussion about your relationship. Meanwhile, just show her that you've changed by daily living the life of a changed man. Don't give her any ammo to bang you over the head with. Avoid LB's.

Until she's ready to be open and honest, perhaps you should stick with general comments...?: "I realize that our marriage wasn't great, and I am sorry for my contribution to the breakdown of our relationship. I have changed/am changing, and I believe that we CAN recover our marriage and be a happy family. I intend to do everything I can to keep my family intact."

Maybe some of Orchid's reverse babble would be in order, here, since she's trying to twist things around and re-write and/or exaggerate history. Have you looked at her thread about rev. babble? Good stuff!

I'm sorry, 19, but I'm not much of a pro at advising how to work the MB concepts...even after 4 years here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You've been getting excellent advise from ML and others so far. Pay very close attention. They definitely know what they're talking about!

Lori

19 - let me try this:

Think of garden variety affairs - those not "caused" by personality quirks or other psychobabble mental issues - are sorta like the fever of a marriage disease.

Re-read the background info on this site or in SAA. Yes, the poor state of the marriage - the disease, usually due to poor performance by both partners, creates the fertile environment for an affair to occur. It's an opportunistic infection.

But your wife took the step to infect the wound. She was the opportunist.

Make sense?

Own your portion of the prior poor state of the marriage. But do not think for a minute that any of your portion "caused" the affair.

Also, do not harp on this to your wife right now - or ever. Do not try to hold a mirror up to her face. She has to do this on her own. You trying to do it will only make her recoil more so.

WAT

Well, last night was pretty much a disaster. W and I went out with another couple and we fought almost the whole time (the other couple knows what is going on with us).

Lots of LB's going both ways.

It was my idea to go out and that was not my plan. I was trying to have a fun night and not think about all this. I don't remember exactly what started it, but I think W made some crappy comment, I responded and it went from there ... we were drinking too (me more than W) and that made it even worse.

This morning W had the nerve to say something to the effect that my telling OMW has caused a problem for OMW's kid. I replied, no, your A caused this - not my telling someone about it. She then said, well, your actions - telling OMW, also had consequences. I left the room when she said that.

I think I need to just quit talking about the R and A altogether - I have tried that, but W brings it up in some form or another - she asks me a lot "have you talked to OMW? when was the last time you talked to her" - so it's hard to not talk about it when she brings it up -

I think I need to avoid discussing it totally - I don't seem to be able to talk about it without LB's.

Any ideas?

hmmmm...my bullcrap alarm just went off full force when I read this:

she asks me a lot "have you talked to OMW? when was the last time you talked to her"

This is not a good sign because it usually means that:

a) she is trying to determine if you ARE still in contact with the OMW, which means this is a great concern to her for a specific reason. The fact that she is concerned about this should be ALARMING to you because it usually means she is or is trying to resume contact

AND/OR

b) she could be trying to make you feel guilty for busting her so that you will not continue to contact the OMW for the reasons I gave above.

Either way, I would advise you STRONGLY to stay in touch with the OMW and to make sure you W KNOWS that you fully intend to do so. Let her know that you will continue to contact OMW, and vice versa, until both are assured the affair is over.

Don't allow her to manipulate you into feeling guily about exposing her because she will use it as a weapon against you.

But I do agree that you should back off from relationship talks right now. She is very irate that you have interfered with her affair. So it will do no good to get baited into a fight.

Lay off the lovebusters, ok?


"I would have had nothing to tell her if it were not for your affair. Sadly, you put me in that position, dear. "

Thanks ML.

I am going to just quit talking about R now as much as I can - W has even admitted that we do a lot better when we don't talk about it. Of course, that was before I told OMW.

I don't know if she is really trying to bait me into a fight, but she ends up doing that. I don't bring up anything and then she'll make a comment "have you talked to your friend, OMW today?" We usually go from there.

She does know that OMW and I are in contact. Talked to her 3 days this week and plan to keep doing so.

I really don't think she is trying to resume contact, but who knows.

I think she asks me that because she is trying to find out what we are talking about. Also, I do think she is embarrased to a certain extent about it all.

Here's a question for you: last night one of W's friends said she wants to talk to me about all this - wants to have lunch this week - anything wrong with doing that? (and I know she'll tell W whatever I tell her ....)

What do you think she wants to talk about? Is she going to waste your time defending your W's affair and chastising you for being satan incarnate for the past 15 years?