Beauty - Not sure what you mean by "let the chips fall where they may" - I don't care if she leaves - I actually wish she would - because I am not going to.

She is actually going away for a long weekend soon. I use to dread it when she left for long weekends (only does it 2 or 3 times a year). This time I am looking forward to it. A little more responsibiliy for me, but that's OK.

"Hurt" sounds weak to me (for a man) - so I don't want to tell her that. "Mad" sounds better from my perspective. I don't want to be seen by her as weak at all right now.

There are no eggshells either. I let her know exactly how I feel this past Friday night - and I probably shouldn't have since the way I did it was AO after AO - of course, she usually says something to start it - I just respond - I just need to learn to not respond in an AO or not at all.

19, of course you're mad and angry. You got hurt! And once you break down the anger, the cause is a defensive reaction to pain. So, Friday she saw the anger. Can't go back and change that now. There's something about flies and vinegar here.

If you hit your finger with a hammer and you swear and cuss and say that hurts, that's not showing weakness, that's being human. Here's what happens the next day. You baby that finger because it's bruised. Again, not weak, just in pain and human.

In my opinion, the longer you can't communicate with your wife openly and honestly, the longer you're going to have feelings like you really don't care. You're not THAT angry because YOU haven't left. I think you do care about your wife and what she thinks or you wouldn't be here venting. (We encourage venting here)

There is a lot of experience. Some, you may not like. I don't like spending $3.00/gallon for gas, but it sure beats walking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

19,

It sounds like you are at the end of your rope with W. If you truly don't care if she leaves, then it should be easy to tell her to have NC.

Please don't wait for a fight to let her know how you feel. Actually the best time to talk about your feelings are when you are both in a good place and more receptive. That way you can avoid angry outbursts or LB's.

It is not weak to tell her that she is hurting you. She is the weak one. Just remember that you are not the one to blame here. You have tried it all and sometimes it's not enough. Obviously the living situation is getting worse. It's time to give W the ultimatum. For your own sanity.

Drex - I don't really mean weakness in the way I feel, but weakness in how it is shown. I've been accused on here of maybe being wimpy regarding W (that's for you ML <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) and I thought about it and if I was, that was not what I wanted to be (not really sure I was, but just in case).

I really think W knows how I feel - maybe not the full extent of how little I care right now, but she knows I am pretty mad.

She's mad too, however. Mad that I told OMW, mad that I was an a-hole Friday night and last, but not least, mad that I have treated her like crap for 15 years (and honestly don't believe it's been that long but trying to convince her is like beating my head against the wall).

And I am mad enough to leave right now - except - for my kids.

I vent here because I think that feeling will probably change and I want to give things time to let that happen. I didn't feel this way 2 weeks ago before I knew the extent of continued contact, so I think it will change if I give it some time. Does that make sense?

In the meantime, I have to stop the LB's or I'll run W off and then if my feelings do change, I'll regret it.

So, I am trying to see the long run beyond the short run. It's not easy to do at all especially when W acts pissed and acts like everything is my fault. Just so you'll know, in 18 years W has never been wrong about anything - and I mean never.

Beauty - She knows how I feel about NC. What I need to determine is whether she agrees. We discuss it and she beats around the bush - I need to flat out ask her if she agrees or not. Then I know where I stand.

She will never leave. If it comes down to that she will try to make me leave. From what little I know about D, she could probably get me out - at least in the short run.

It's the roller coaster bub. And I'm sure your WW will say that you are always the right one too. LOL One of the recent discussions that my WW and I have had was who was right more often. Vent it all out and pick our brains and create a tangible plan that you can be comfortable carrying out.

If your kids are your motivation, FABULOUS! Just remember, what your kids need most is for their parents to be in love, to love one another. If things don't work out for you, it won't be because YOU didn't try, will it? Of course not. On the same token, you have to protect your feelings for your wife and make sure that you don't start to feel hatred for her or the sitch gets more complicated.

Whatever you decide to do, make sure you get God's opinion too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do sort of feel hatred for her right now. I also think (and hope) you are correct about the roller coaster. I think I am in a bottom right now. Hopefully it will come back up ......

Hang in there. Sooner or later the ride has to come to a stop. It is up to you how much you can take before you throw up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's an interesting way to put it - I haven't thrown up any since dday (and I think W has a few times.....).

So I talk to W on the phone a few minutes ago and she says she needs to get a job so I can leave her. I say, what do you mean? She says so it won't be so bad money-wise and you can leave me and divorce me. I say, "Do you really think that's why I haven't done that?" She said yes.

I then told her that wasn't true.

That was pretty much it - she had to go. I didn't get into whether I loved her or any of that, just told her it wasn't true.

Should I have said that or should I have just let it go?

It's not true (i.e. I am not staying for money - right now it's the kids, not money).

Honesty isn't a love buster, remember?

Do you mean I should have said I am only staying for the kids? (I doubt it)

I don't think what I said was a LB - but - I could have been more of a hard [censored] and just let it go - I think she needs to have at least a little doubt - I think that helps with our chances -

sounds stupid, but based on things I have heard her tell her friends, I think it's true

I mean I think if you want her to respect you and be honest with you, then be honest with her. If it gets ugly after you've been honest with her, one thing she won't be able to call you is a liar. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Having said that, brutal honesty and radical honesty are not the same things. For example...

wife... "What do you think of this color blouse?"

you being radically honest... "I think you look better in the blue one."

you being brutally honest... "I think red makes you look fat and dumpy."

Quote:
So I talk to W on the phone a few minutes ago and she says she needs to get a job so I can leave her. I say, what do you mean? She says so it won't be so bad money-wise and you can leave me and divorce me. I say, "Do you really think that's why I haven't done that?" She said yes.
_____________

Two choices why she would say that, she's considering D, or she believes (fears?) that's what you want and always wanted.

For the second choice, how can she be sure that you REALLY want to recover, if she see and feels you "mad", not hurt but mad all the time?
How can she believes you'll ever forgive her? How can't she be afraid that from now on your life wont be all about LB because of the affair? How can't she fear your "power" because of her wrong doing? How can she believes in a new (happy) future?

Please 19, Make the decision rather you want to safe your marriage or not. (you have to include be able to love her all again)

She's not easy and I see some "red" flags during last updates... but... Don't forget, she's probably confused as well, and mostly she doesn't know how to get out of all the mess she created. She's at fault, she knows it and she hates it. She needs you to lower your defenses so she can lower hers, RADICAL HONESTY is the key. But you have to be the one to start.

This isn't a "power" fight or a game any of you has to win.

You two have to come to the RADICAL HONESTY conversation as to rebuilt or not.

If you decide to rebuilt your self, don't giver her the "staying for the kids" tell her HOW you truly believe your future together will be, and the happy couple you can be... if you both work for it.

Only after you two honestly agree to rebuilt you can make her understand how NC is important.

I'm not in the best positions for advice as you know... just sharing the feelings and conclusions of my own situation.
All I can say is that... since I reached the Anger phase... it has been really hard for me to be RADICALLY HONEST to my H specially about my feelings. All I have achieved was a stronger armor defense. It's not leading me anywhere.

If you haven't maybe you would like to read Asterix thread on the "Anger phase". Hope it helps.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Maybe you're both getting tired of this stage... She's not helping with her attitude. Did she ever considered coming to MB and read at least?

Also, I would correct the notion that if a seperation takes place, that it will be YOU leaving. I would disabuse her of that notion quickly. She may thinking you will be the one to leave in any potential seperation. Women usually just expect that, and are quite surprised when the man won't leave.

They don't want to give up their home, but expect to keep their home with all the furnishings intact with the children in order to cause the least amount of discomfort.

19,

Do not leave your home. If it comes to divorce, that will look bad to the judge and W could use that against you. Stay strong and stay in your home with your children. She is the one that has caused the family pain. Remember that.

I'd push for the her getting a job thing. If she's serious then encourage it. If it ever does come down to a custody battle you would be on more equal footing if she had a job. Otherwise, the stay at home mother has a significant advantage in a custody battle (should it ever come to that).

A job would also likely be good for your marriage. Your wife would be transitioning to a new career and may endeavor to turn over a new leaf in the marriage as well. She will see that living costs money and appreciate more all that you have accomplished by working so hard in the past and enabling her to be a SAHM for all those years. It may give her a new passion. Idle time is not healthy for many. She'd have less time to dwell on the past and tend to live for the day having such responsibility.

All in all. I think it would be a good thing which you should encourage.

As far as her you divorcing her comments. Perhaps it is more an indication of her feelings of unworthiness. Her lack of sincerely believing that YOU LOVE HER. Just maybe she has doubted your love for her for years and the affair only magnified such doubt. To her, of course you want a divorce, what else could you really want...you really don't want to stick around, you just don't want to "give up". Your interests are to "control" her not love her.

Just trying to explore another line of thinking. I am no expert at interpreting woman's behavior. That is a certainty.

Mr. Wondering

She actually said that??

BWAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Dern that's funny! I can visualize that coming out of her mouth because you're too sane to make that up.

Clear indication that she's a ball of string right now.

Reminds me of my XW's accusation when she decided to move out: "I HAVE to go because it was YOUR decision NOT to leave!!!!"

Fact IS stranger than fiction.

Don't leave 19. Repeat your mantra. "I have no interest in leaving nor in a divorce."

Different topic: love busters

A love buster is defined by the recipient. Don't get tangled up trying to determine what will or won't be an LB for your wife. She gets to make that decision. The only thing that you or we can predict is what should or shouldn't be a love buster. At a certain time or place for certain WSs, "I love you" can be a love buster.

JMHO

WAT

Well said, WAT. I agree completely. For some of us BSs, though, it takes learning the hard way. Having said that, there are other ways of saying ILY without actually saying it. I took someones advice on here (and if I could remember their name I'd give them the credit for it). WW says to me, "Great coffee this morning. Thanks for making it." I say to her, "You're welcome. I love making coffee for you."

The advice that was being given was for someone who was having a hard time saying ILY, but I think it can be applied to someone who has a hard time HEARING ILY too, because you can say something like that and there's no pressure to respond. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drex - yes, it is an art form, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT