The only problem with that idea is that she might agree to a meeting - she wants to talk to OMW anyway, I know she likes to talk to OM, so ....

I don't really want that - I wouldn't want to do that - I think I would have to hit OM if I got that close to him .... I am sort of kidding, but not entirely - he's a smug pos

W's problem is that nothing has ever been her fault in her entire life - even her kindergarten teacher once told her "sometimes it is your fault..." - she didn't listen

How are things going tonight, 19?

Yep, Mel. Reminds me of my WH. He was trying soooo hard, but the OW kept showing up at his door nekkid.

But sounds like OM is backpeddling and trying to save himself. He will probably steer clear of 19's wife.

OK, ML and Believer, make me feel naive again - I am not a naive person at all, but I don't always get all of this .... some of this is even pretty obvious

on the other hand, I sort of believe it - only because OM has called W 2 times since Feb 1 - literally - but I guess you are right, who knows what he was telling her on phone - (of course, I wanted to believe there was NC too)

And I didn't mean he was innocent - just that I do bet he was shocked when she showed up out there

thanks for giving me continous reality checks - I need it.

Fine so far - of course W didn't get home until 8:00 - now she is on computer in den looking up chest pain - says she is having it - and I am in bedroom talking to you -

don't mean to be petty about chest pain - just dont really believe its a big deal

here she comes -

What do you think she is doing on the computer? Does she communicate with the OM on her computer? Is she communicating with anyone on the computer?

It's probably panic attacks, not chest pains. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Is your wife on AD's? If not she should be.

By double acting I mean that I was in Plan A but not fully in plan A. Why? because even when trying to be in plan A, I was also acting like preparing my self for a divorce, which I still believe might not be such a bad idea, but, I have to take the RISK and try to be fully dedicated to our atemtp to R,

Ok... was just reading MrWondering reply... that's exactly what I mean by "double acting"


My H said the same thing about Radical Honesty - Took me too much to get him to understand it, at the time we were still on the "tell me All that happened "and "why" issues.

Took him so long that I realized I would be much better without him, so long I really started to hate him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He now says he's totally honest, How can I tell? I can't trust him.
I believe he's trying to be honest, but I know, and feel, not totally, he's not lying just afraid to talk... It takes time.

I am still waiting on the "why" he did it.

RADICAL HONESTY is the base to rebuilt any strong relationship.

I am giving it all some time, fighting my anger and hate feelings, trying to get to him and recover our intimacy.

It's really hard. But I have to stick to my decision of trying recovery, and look at it like a task or a big project I need to work very hard to achieve.

--------

From your last developments, your W looks just like a spoiled selfish person.. a WS!

Don't give her much attention, she's just desperate that she has to admit her mistakes, and well, I bet even tho she says she had decided to stop calling OM, she must have tried to call him recently, that's why she's so upset. Besides, she wants to know what did OM said to his W, how are they doing, etc. She might also be refusing to herself that he just walked away from her that easy.

You have great advise here on how to respond to that anger. Good luck. Stay strong as you have always been.

ML and Beauty - I don't think she communicates with OM on computer - I am 99% sure - I think she really was looking up chest pain - some nurse told her she should go to doctor about it so it worried her

I think you are right in that it could be panic attacks -

yes, she is on AD's. She has been for about 5 years.

I am too for that matter - but I just started in late February. Didn't really want to, but it's part of my efforts to change

Anyway, very little discussion last night - which was fine with me.

lost - I think I have been "double acting" too. It's hard not to. I also think you are right in that maybe you do have to just take a risk if you want to have a chance to work out your M. I like your analogy to a big project.

The hard part for me, and it sounds like for you too at least to a certain extent, is deciding what we want after all that has happened. At times I am really not sure and like you there is some hatred.

I am hoping W's anger about exposure will just fade away - and you are right about the "spoiled selfish person" - but then again, "they were just friends talking on the phone".

Stay strong yourself, I guess this will end someday - one way or another - or maybe not.

ML - Here's a good one for you: I call W a little while ago and ask her if it's a nice day outside (I can see out my window, but haven't been out since 8 or so so I don't know how warm/cold etc.).

W says it would be a great day if my life weren't in shambles.

I asked her why and she said you know why.

And that was it. She didn't go on to blame me at least. Pretty funny if you ask me.

Here is another: Saturday right after I tell W that I told OMW, I ask her: "Have you talked to OM since Feb 21?", Reply: "I don't want to answer that." Have you met with OM since Feb 21?" Reply: "I don't want to answer that."

Obviously, it didn't take much for me to convince her to fess up, but what a stupid thing to say. I think her IC told her to say something like that. Makes me mad just to think about it......

19, It's amazing isn't it. You're to blame for the way she now feels. *rolleyes* One day she may look back on that and wonder what she was thinking. I hope so. It makes me mad too, 19 her saying I don't have to answer that. She IS MARRIED TO YOU. It shows she just hasn't got a clue what she's done.

I know you guys don't think the OM is telling any sort of truth but I get a real gut feeling over and over again that he was definitely interested, it was fun, it was exciting but when it started to get out of hand he didn't want to pursue it. He probably WAS horrified when the cookies turned up.

Everything is screaming that at me.

19, Honestly I guess we all need TIME.

I think your're really being a good husband and your're doing it all correct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I trully hope in a near future she will adimt it and admire you for it.
Even your kids, not knowing, have all the reasons to be proud of the stronger man you will be after all this, they can only benefit from the better Marriage your fighting for.

Just continue to be strong, dont let the hatred feelings take over. I believe you'll get rewarded.

I am now starting to understand what all the kind and more experienced people over here offten advice us, look at the future, that's where we have to focus if we want to get out of our present stage. We have to believe we will get there. Nice words I know... not so easy to act upon them, but we have to try. Not the near future, but a year or two from now.

The more irrational, fog and selfish comments maybe the more silly she will feel later. Maybe they are the reason we one day we will be able to forgive them, because they are just that, irrational. Deep inside we know it's not really them saying it.

I still believe your wife is just trying to find a way to get out of this without her pride and honor damaged. This is all about her, and she's really having a hard time admiting it to you. You have to find a way to get to her.
Radical Honesty?

I have been thinking...this is just an idea...

But do you think a letter would help her lower her stubborn defenses?
Something to kick her and make her think...

The only way I got my husband to really start talking openly about what happened was after i send him this letter (I re-wrote it according to us) .

Like a break on the "current emotions" and actions?

A letter where you will be TOTALY open about everything, your feelings, your marriage before, that you can "ïn some way" understand her actions, how it was possible for her to fail, where you show her without "pointing or blaming" at her what you expect from your future but where you need her to be totally honest not only to you but to herself? A chance for her to finally admit it all? To finally tell you her true feelings on all this? To be radical honest?

Give her your soul in that letter, reminder of all the good moments and maybe even tell her why you admire and love her. (though part I know)
Show her how happy you believe you can be, if she finally admits to you everything.

This is the letter posted to me by Bigkahuna:
-------------------------------------------
The following is a letter written by a BS to his FWW. Let him read it.

Joseph's Letter
I want to share a beautiful example of a letter one man wrote in his effort to get his wife to answer his questions. This was originally posted on my BAN Message Board before it was closed. While I didn't keep any of the messages posted on that board, this was so exceptional that I got Joseph's permission to include it in "Peggy's Forum" so it could continue to be accessed by people who didn't read his original posting.
So I'm including it here as a clear statement of the "need to know," as well as a clear explanation of why you ask the questions:

"To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
---------------------------------

Do you think it could help in some way?

I think the most relevant in this letter is the fact that the BS is being extremely honest and totally open, not accusing the WS, just sharing and explaining his position.

Do you think she would listen to you this way?

I would also add to your letter a Harley's definition "What's an affair" even if she already read it.

You have to write a whole new letter to your situation... What do you think?

KiwiJ - I actually think you are exactly right. I do think he was interested. I think it was a little game for him and I do think he liked W, maybe had a crush on her, maybe more,- maybe hoped for some SF on the side, who knows?

But, I think when I found out what was going on in early Feb, he knew it had gotten out of hand and didn't want to pursue. She kept it up - she says "just friends" at that point (which I know is BS) and I think you are right - he was shocked when she showed up with cookies. I also think she could probably tell and knew she was making a fool out of herself.

Now, many on here don't agree with that - they say WS's will say all that to minimize. I do agree with that, but I sort of think this actually may be true here. But, I guess none of us knows for sure.

Guess what she said this morning? I said "I love you" as I was leaving for work. She said "You sure have a funny way of showing it ..." I said "So do you". Where does the nerve come from?

>Where does the nerve come from?

Gallbladder.

Paugh!

You are doing so well 19! I'm so proud of you. Keep being kind. It's going to take some time before the enormity of what she CHOSE to do hits her smack upside the head. When it does, she's gonna hurt bad. Keep that in mind also....it's a crucial time for BOTH of you....and that time is coming. I can feel it.

Kiwi, does 19's WW remind you a little bit of Squid? She does me...right down to the tips of her little toesies.

- Kimmy

lost - Thanks. You make a great point about the future. You are right - the present is not good and the future is all we really have to work for. I try to think of that sometimes, but I think I have forgotten over the past couple of weeks. Thanks for reminding me.

What I have tried to keep in mind through all this is where I want to end up. I try to keep this in mind as my male ego wants me to do things that I would ultimately be sorry I did (one reason I waffled so long on exposure).

So, I am trying to do that.

As far as the letter idea, I think it's a great idea, but I have already done it. I wrote her a very nice letter a few days after dday (before I ever read this website). I told her how I felt, how I understood what happened and how I wanted us to work. Then, I actually offered to let her go with OM if that's what she really wanted and I would make it possible financially so she could live in the same way for a while - my point was very clear - I would rather be divorced than have this crap go on behind my back. (which is still entirely true). So, I was trying to remove the financial impediment and let her do it if she wanted to. Obviously, she didn't, but she continued to lie and talk to him for another 2 months or so - all behind my back.

So letters are a good idea, but I've tried that and it didn't do much.

Thanks.

Have you had a discussion about the church situation yet?

Dealan - Thanks. Maybe she will wake up - of course she keeps on saying they were "just friends". Occasionally she'll say maybe for a day or 2 it was more, but they are "just friends" - that bugs the crap out of me and, of course, makes it hard to be nice.

I hope you are right. I think she may already be hurting. I can't tell for sure, and she'll never tell me. Just so you know, in 18 years, not sure she has ever admitted she was wrong about anything - I don't see her starting now.

Of course she did tell me yesterday her life was "in shambles"

ML - We've discussed it some. Have not definitively done anything or discussed it in detail.

Changing churches is not easy and right now is probably the worst possible time to do it - for me - not for her. I am president of a men's group for my state - not just my church, but the whole state. I can't get out of that (and I don't want to - I wanted it and I worked hard to get it).

Because of that, I can't change denominations right now - and even changing churches in the same denomination is really complicated by that - it's over in August.

So, I know we need to get out of there (or OM and OMW do), I am just trying to figure out how and when etc.

I know you won't like that answer.