Our MC is definitely pro-M. Also, he's the one who referred me to this site and to SAA (the same day he found out about this EA). I guess that means he supports MB principles?

He also told us to write a NC letter that day. W objected and I didn't push hard enough.

I don't mean to push it off on him - I just mean a forum to discuss it - help avoid LB's maybe -

So, what if she says she'll call him if she wants to? I guess I would want to go ahead and D her then - is that what you mean by non-negotiable?

If she says she will call him, then you will know she has absolutely no intention of stopping her affair and has utterly no respect for you. You will know where she stands and know that recovery is impossible.

19, if you are willing to forgive her, the least she can do is send the nc letter and promise to end contact.

She has promised NC - of course, this is the third time she has made that promise over the past 3 mos. First 2 times were lies.

good, then what is all this about? If she has promised nc, then she should be ready and willing to send the nc letter, no? That would be a demonstration of her sincerity, if any.

Yes, it would be, but she still says I have made a big deal out of nothing and she won't want to send a NC letter because of that.

Of course, you know, it could be that the only reason she hasn't kept it up is because OM's interest had declined - I think. That sux for me, but it may be true.

19, but it is not a "little deal" to you. Let her know that it is a very important issue TO YOU. It would be a good will gesture out of respect FOR YOU. It would show that she cares about your feelings and cares about rebuilding the trust she destroyed with her affair. Is she interested in doing that?

No it is radical honesty - honesty is an EN - and a big one. as long as you are not brutal - as in, "she has ruined our chances of doing any good aa she is a lying xxx" see what I mean?

My husband (repeat FWH) likes to play the control card when I will not allow him to run the marriage into the ground with LB behaviours. If they can persuade themselves (and you) that they are being controlled then they are victims and victims are not responsible for anything.

So stay firm on your boundaries - simply tell her that she must have no contact if she wants to save the marriage. Rehearse saying it out loud until it comes out calm and firm and ALWAYS the same words. If she argues just say "perhaps I didn't make myself clear", and repeat it slowly. Reassure her that you love her and wish to rebuild the marriage, however - repeat the EA boundary statement. I did this for about a month and would not be drawn into an argument about it. No discussion. Just the two statements.

It is rocky and hard to deal with, but you are doing well and drex and wat will support you.

SP

Hope everything went well. I wish I'd read up on how to expose to OW's H, b/c I did it immediately, and his response was denial and actually, very patronizing toward me. It sounds like you entered this well-informed, and As a BW, I would be very grateful. Chances are, he's lied to her before, and it won't be as big a surprise as you might think. I'll be curious to see how it turned out. Good Luck.

That's defeatest thinking. My wife's OM broke up with my wife to end the affair and WE both are grateful (so to speak). Grateful cause my wife was in it and deep. It would have likely lingered for months but withdrawal and recovery ensued immediately instead.

OM ain't me. He didn't/doesn't compare. I know it, my wife knows it (and I made sneakily sure OM knew it). Also there was nothing real about the relationship anyway and your wife will one realize that and appreciate you standing by her. I'm just pleased the relationship ended HOWEVER THAT HAPPENS. My wife wasn't thinking clearly and now she is. In fact, a good Plan A by a BH will often result in the OM breaking things off cause they get sick of the chaos, sick of the lies, sick of the crumbs and have a lot less at stake willingness to fight for her than you. That's why you battle "affair thinking" on both fronts OM and WW. That's why another reason you expose...to get OM to move on.

Additionally, God choose your wife for you as your perfect gift and vice versa. GOD CHOOSE YOU for HER. Trust that He knows what He is doing. Don't allow your High School insecurities to get the best of you. You are her husband. You are number 1, in God's eyes, our eyes and your eyes.

Bottom line. Don't sweat it.

Mr. Wondering

Went to MC this morning and it was actually sort of helpful. This was the first time we have been since I told OMW and since I confirmed continuing contact since Feb 21.

MC doesn't take crap from W. He doesn't lambast her, but he tells her flat out that she can say OM was a "friend" all she wants, but based on what happened earlier and based on the lies and deception she has engaged in, that she has to decide whether she wants to give that up and work on our marriage or keep it up and go ahead and end our M. MC gets frustrated with W not seeming to admit she has done anything.

W, of course, says she gave it up weeks ago by her own choice. So, she picked the first option.

They went back and forth on this for almost the entire time (I didn't have to say very much this time).

W also said that her IC had been trying to get her to quit talking to OM all this time too. I guess I believe that.

Mr. W - Thanks for the comment about why the EA may have ended. I know what you mean and I think you know what I mean. I have no interest in being a second choice at this point in life, but I think you analysis is probably correct.

ok, can you see me RELAXING NOW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It sounds like a very productive session, 19.

I agree very much with MrW about how insignificant it is HOW an affair ends. It matters very little in the big scheme of things. When the WS comes out from under the fog, things look entirely different no matter how that happened.

Dr. Harley said something very interesting to a caller on his show today. He said that saving a marriage from an affair is a two part strategy:

1. absolute no contact for life, even if one has to move

2. make your spouse fall in love with you again

You are working on the former, but I would also focus on the latter. Have you taken the emotional needs questionaires? Do you know her top needs?

ML - Thanks. I will have to say I am surprised - why are you relaxing, I didn't think you ever relaxed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, what about my post made you relax? While I think it was productive too, it didn't really make me relax.

Among other things, W said she was still "numb" towards me - she's never even said that before (it wasn't a surprise, nothing is).

So, I am glad to know that you see this as positive, but I would love to know what makes you feel that way?

I am relaxing because I am reassured about your MC. He appears to understand that honesty is the first step in recovery and is not going to let her get away with being dishonest. You wouldn't believe how many simply do not understand the dynamics of infidelity and cause more harm than good. It is just amazing some of the dumb, counterproductive things that our members are told by marriage counselors.

But it sounds like your MC fully understands that a) she is trying bs both of you and b) he is going to call her on it.

That is a very typical reaction, especially with women. She probably has feelings of LOVE for the OM, which effects her feelings toward you. As she withdraws from him, as long as nc is really honored, her feelings should come back for you.

Thanks. Now I understand.

By the way, he has never come close to condoning the lying or letting her get away with it. He's been on her about that since day 1 - not sure how much good it has really done, but he's tried and continues to try. Maybe one of us can break through one day.

I hope you are wrong about her "feelings of love for OM" but maybe you are right.

Even if she doesn't "love" him like that, she is losing what she considers to be at least a good friend, so I would imagine there is some degree of withdrawal from that too - even if that's all it was/is.

Wouldn't you think?

So I talk to W on phone. She said when she met with IC this morning (after we met with MC) she told IC that she resents the fact that she is being treated by me and MC as if she had a "real affair" when she didn't - since she only had an EA. She keeps up the "just friends" BS. IC asked her if she told MC and me about this resentment - like we would really care if she resented it -

This drives me crazy. She continues to not even come close to accepting the fact that she did something she shouldn't have. I cannot get it across to her - should I even try or just give up on that?

The problem I see with it is that a lot hinges on her acknowledging at a minimum that she did something she shouldn't have.

Should I tell her about the list I have that she made which was pros and cons of leaving me and included OM's being married as a con to leaving me? She does not know I have that.

19, have you showed WW the book Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D? Seems to me that book is exactly what you need. If you haven't, perhaps you should consider it. I'm mindful of the difficulty (or perhaps "futility") in presenting logical arguments to aliens still in the fog, but seeing her words refuted in print might make the lightbulb come on. Good luck!

I have not shown her that book - she said she didn't want to read any more books right now.

Interestingly, there was an article about EA's in one of her women's magazines a few days ago (it was mentioned on the cover so I saw and read it). I need to ask her if she read the article.

I do try to ask her how she would like it if DS's W did the same thing.

grrrrrrrrrrr, I made a whole post and it is just gone!

19, I second Longhorn's recommendation. But would also tell you this: you don't need her admission to know it is an affair. I would let her know this. She can call it a baloney sandwich if she wants, but the only person who is fooled is HER. Everyone else knows what it is.

I KNOW you need her honest admission to recover, but that is not going to come until and unless she understands that she is not going to manipulate others into believing her verion.

Hopefully, her IC explained to her that resentments are like taking poison and expecting the other person to die. Only she has control over her own resentments. No one else does.