Naw, I still love ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am just hanging back watching, because I believe you will do the right thing. It may take another rendevous between your W and the OM, though. That is usually what happens and then the BS is quickly propelled into action. I expect that to happen here.

ML - Thanks. I didn't really doubt you still loved me, I just assumed that you were very frustrated (and I don't blame you - I would be frustrated too if I were you).

You are right that any further contact would quickly propel me to do it. In a sick way I sort of wish that would happen (just a phone call, of course) since then I would have justification ..... of course, I am looking like ****** for evidence of that and can't find it.....

I plan to do it anyway - believe it or not. Otherwise, it is going to drive me crazy. But I have said that before ...

19, that is usually what happens with you stubborn ones! You drag your feet and then you discover continued contact. Suddenly the house is on fire and exposure is done in warp speed, BY GOD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

19,

I feel like that a lot, although less lately. In my case I felt soo bad for such a long time for my one contribution to the demise of the M, and I put so much effort into it that when he said he was finally willing to try, I just took a step back, waited and watched. Waiting for him to take that mistep as I couldn't believe him entirely. I still kinda feel that way, if I ever knew he had contact and he wasn't the one telling me about it, I would be so far out of here! In our case my WH doesn't do much to recover our marriage, never wants to talk, doesn't read, so there is a lot that says to me you need to walk the walk, not talk the talk.

ML - I would tell you I was going to do it tomorrow, but I have cried wolf too many times and I am embarrased.

It does make me feel a little better to know I am not the only one who is stubborn in this regard.

You're not just saying that to be nice, are you?

nabohio - You are a lot further from dday than I am - I am only about 2.5 mos out and there was contact 3 weeks after that for sure. That is probably why you feel less like that lately. I am glad to hear that and I hope it's true for me one day.

Like your H, my W doesn't do that much either. She has definitely done some, however. We do go to MC and we actually went to a 3 day MC program about a month ago. That was my idea, but she went and made arrangements for kids etc - which is an ordeal. So she was trying.

Other than MC, she hasn't done much since then in the way of reading books, talking etc. She'll talk if I want to, but it almost always leads to this statement: "You don't understand how I feel based on what you have done to me for the past 15 years ..." She then will say that what she did was nothing compared to what I did (since it was just an EA). She thinks an EA is pretty much nothing.

Just so you'll know, "what I have done" is act contemptous toward her in a quiet way - no yelling, screaming etc., just acting quiet and disappointed in her for a long time. I think I did act that way - although unknowingly to a certain extent. I think it started over dissatisfaction with SF with her (not enough).

So, I have been trying extremely hard not to act that way - even though now I actually feel that way. I didn't really before, it became a habit. Now I do, and I can't act like it - sort of ironic, isn't it?

I can think of 2 other guys who dragged their feet. They BOTH EXPOSED eventually and they BOTH said they wish they had done it earlier. ALMOST EVERYONE who delays says they wish they had done it earlier, because TRUE recovery never begins until it is done.

The 2 that I am thinking of right now are weneedhelp [he already posted to you] and Shaden. They are both glad they exposed, just wish it had been sooner.

Hi. I was reading over your post and wondering if you told OMW. It took me 2 months to expose the A to OWH. SO, I understand your reluctance. I was in so much turmoil. However what kicked it over for me was that I realized that my H was going to be going back to work directly with OW. So I felt that I needed to bust the situation up. I exposed to her H and both of their boss. They claimed it was only EA also. But I have doubt about it.

However when I did reveal there were mistakes that I made.
I hadn't expressed to my H after things settled down and he wasn't angry (b/c WS become very angry) what I would like for him to make a decision about regarding recommittal to our M, no NC, and transparency. So it has been a month later and I'm now just having these talks with him.

Anyway, I realized also that OWH deserved the chance to realize what was going on in his M and protect his well-being as we do not know for sure if there wasn't a PA,(he may have wanted to have STD testing) and also he deserved to know that his M was in trouble.

Anyhow, I felt so much better afterwards, my conscious clear. I do hear your concern for OMW, being that she has already gone through something like this. This was my H's second A. The first OW her H got a dv. So I had some reserve about that, what if the same thing happened with these two. Then I realized that this wasn't my issue to be concerned with b/c it was there choice to make. However, I felt that it wasn't me that caused the dv, but the affair that caused it and the problems existing in the M.

With this exposure the OW, had the nerve to try to lay guilt on me that I was causing her M to end and she didn't care if she stayed M or not b/c my telling her H might end her M. I thought she was comical. She was totally unwilling to recognize her own responsibility to the A. My H was very much similar to her also. But anyway. I still felt better after getting the info out there.

The OWH and her are still together. Her H has become a bit of an ally to me. It worked out fine.

19, I relate so much in all you going thru. And I am also 2.5 months after d-day.

I wish I could expose, but I can't or it is pointless now.

His last affair, there's no one to expose. She's from another country and have just been here for a few days.

But for the second A, that after 2 ONS was followed by a 8 months EA, I couldn't have exposed because I didn't really knew it was going on.

But it was in some way exposed, even if I was dumb enough to still believe my H.
The reason it was only a twice PA, was because someone send msn's to a LOT of people, friends, work,etc. So they stop it. They continued with the EA, mail, msn, occasional social and business meetings, etc, until those msn's started to come again, and after this I pressured my H, he denied but end it.

But what hit my H really hard recently was the fact that he finally realized he (we) lost a lot of friends due to what has been said and that was true. (we are expats living in Asia, really small community)

So now when he says Mr x or Ms y or Dr. a or b don't talk to me, are acting different... and I answer, They been acting like that with me since back then... the messages... people know, people saw you...

Now he REALLY feels ashamed for what he did. Now he realizes how wrong and childish he was.

Until I had the final A "real" proof, (a friend saw him in a 5 star hotel 3 am with a woman) he never though I would find out. He never though anyone would know, so he thought what he was doing was not that wrong. He believed that as long as he denied and that no one had a hard proof it was nothing)
Hope you get what I am trying to say.


Well, a lot going on with me now, will post later, I don't even know how to write about it. But it just feels like d-day all over again.

Anyway, I guess I am running out of time for a big decision. I can go for D or I will definetely need to find a way to keep these hate feelings away.

Wish you all the best

ML - I am sure I will wish it had been sooner one day.

LLG - So when you exposed after 2 months, did you know whether there was still contact? My W promises up and down that there has been NC since Feb 21 except one time she saw him in carpool line and talked to him and a couple of times she saw him at church and did not talk to him (I was there so she is telling the truth).

Problem is, I don't believe her. I have overheard some phone calls between her and friends that lead me to believe she is still up to something. But, it's not conclusive evidence at all - it's barely even evidence. So, I have sort been chickening out and waiting for better evidence.

My fear is that I will hurt recovery that has taken place so far if I tell OMW and if there really has not been contact since Feb 21. W is mad at me for how I have treated her over past 15 years and this might push her over edge (and I admit I am guilty of what she says to a certain extent).

What do you mean about the things you had not expressed to him? Do you mean you had not told him there could be NC?

I absolutely think the OMW deserves to know, by the way, and I do feel bad for not having already told her.

lost_willow - Sorry to hear that you are having renewed problems and I am sorry that more things have happened.

As I have said before, I think you and I are the in the same place in many respects in how we feel. I don't think our H and W will ever know that what they did has changed the way we feel about them forever. I honestly don't think that will ever change back to the way it was.

Maybe it can be better than it was - I don't know, but I am not real optimistic either.

One reason that I do want to expose is something you mentioned. I think that would make W realize what she did - that it's not some little game she played (is playing?). I have heard her tell one freind about it and they were laughing etc. I imagine the other friends she has told have pretty much gone the same.

She tells them she is having M problems (which we are and were before EA) and that she complicated it by getting "too close" to OM. Then she tells them all about how great it made her feel etc. Exposure to OMW would certainly put a damper on all that. Maybe not a good reason to do it, but who cares.

Of course, I am rambling on when I should be actually doing it.

Post back and let us know what is going on with you. I don't pretend to have much good advice, but it helps me just to write and I bet it does you too.

P.S. I am jealous that you are expats in Asia. I have always wanted to do that in Asia or Europe and I was never able to pull it off. Kids are too old now, so if I ever do it I'll have to wait awhile....

No, I didn't know. I had pretty much busted up their primary means of contact by finding his email info. And he was with me most of the time. However there was an occasion where I caught him sneaking to talk to her. He didn't know that I knew until I confronted him. He was off his job for a short while (which is where she works also), and their constant work conversation was ceased for that time until he went back to work.


Definitely heed those signals if your intuition gives you to suspect or if wife conversation sounds like it, it is very possible that she is still making contact. My H was very sneaky. And he found ways in first A to contact OW.


See, what I think happens sometimes is that the BS in an effort to try to make such a good impression and make it work assumes that WS has the same goal. When in actuality if WS is intent to stay in the A, what you do will not have bearing on them. B/c they may not be decided if they want to leave the M or stay they may try to work on recovery or may make only small recovery efforts to try to prevent detection of the A.

IMHO, BSs are often preoccupied with how they are trying to not hurt recovery that they may miss when WSs aren't coming along with them in the recovery.

If you W is intent to continue in what she has been doing and is in the "fog", what you are doing will not mean anything to her until she is willing to come, to make the decision to come out. So what happens is what I believe amounts to a false recovery on the behalf of the WS. The steps to recovery are for WS to stop the A and commit to honesty, maintain, NC, and so on.

So she has her part to play and you have yours. Nonethelsee, this is aside from the issue to expose. Exposure, is in my thoughts about also helping the party that is unaware by informing them so that they are aware of the betrayal. Another beneift is that you both may be able to help each other keep them apart.

Just one more thing 193. If you decide to do this, make sure you have replies ready for WS when she comes. A poster named Orchid has these wonderful reverse babbles that help the BS put responsibility where it belongs without showing disrespect to WS. They are usually short and to the point but powerful in saying what needs to be said without long speeches. So you may want to review her thread. Also, you may want tot alk to WS about what you would like to happen if you find out that NC wasn't committed to.

Also I found out that if you get a chance to talk to OM, ask him about what went on. Many times if you keep a cool head the OP will tell you details about the A, that is, if you are interested. May also find out if there is still contact.

To Orchid's Reverse Babble, click her link below in this post.

Wish the best. Hope it all works out.

LLG - Like you, I have destroyed their primary means of contact - her cell phone and our home phone. Since then, however, I know for a fact she has used public phones to call him. I know because she told me when I caught her on the home phone around Feb 21. So, I know she has been sneaky before and used other means. She is also free everyday from 8 - 2:30 to do whatever she wants. We know what they say about idle hands, don't we????

What I don't know is if it has happened since Feb 21. All I have is a call where W said this to a friend: "I've been trying to behave myself. I have not been behaving perfectly, but better". That was around April 7. That's pretty much all I have at this point. That, and intuition and suspicion.

I also heard her talk to a friend about him 3 weeks or so before that. Didn't really say anything, but it lead me to believe that she is at least thinking about him and she has at least thought about calling him. I could handle the thoughts except that she has told me she's not even thinking about him anymore. Said she now thinks of him as a friend who died (i.e. a friend she can't ever talk to again).

As far as the "good impression" stuff you mention, I think she is coming along with me - but I guess I don't know for sure. She likes to remind me how badly I acted for 15 years and that she may not be able to get over it .... on the other hand, we go to MC and we went to a 3 day MC seminar a few weeks ago. So, I think she is trying.

I have been acting badly for 15 years (not now, but I was). She does have to deal with that.

Of course, she could also be contacting OM. She thinks there is nothing wrong with talking on the phone. She says she won't do it, but I really think she believes there is nothing wrong with it. Doesn't think it really was an EA anyway.

So, I know I need to tell OMW and do it ASAP. If no other reason then just so she will know who she is dealing with. I am just worried about the ramifications of doing so.

19, I've read and reread all your posts and I'm no closer now to figuring out your trepidation than I was when I started. You're wandering around, trying on this excuse and then that one while looking for something that will fit and explain your fear of talking to a woman who desperately needs to know her marriage is in as deep trouble as yours.

Come on, man. The ramifications of NOT exposing are that you continue to go on living your life in a gray, featureless limbo and the OM's wife can't even deal with her misery. Darn it. Just DO it.

Longhorn - Thanks. You are right and you pretty much summed it all up in a very succint post.

I know I need to get over it and just do it, I am just having a hard time worrying that it could make my situation even worse if there is no contact and hasn't been in almost 2 months (and I know that is selfish when it comes to OMW and I don't like that either - especially since I know her).

Thanks.

I agree. With her knowing she may have the same chance as you to try to work on her M if she so chooses.


Are you waiting for evidence of contact before you say something?

It sounds like you have concerns that pertain to you only exposing if WW isn't telling the truth about NC. I'm thinking because otherwise it might be seen as being vengeful. Is that your thought? What caused you to want to expose if you believed there was no contact since there has been some time to go by since 2.21?

Everyone really has their own reasons for exposing. Many do not like to admit this. I had to sort through mine as well. However I felt if nothing else the OW's H would know and he and I have actually become allies. One thing that I definitely wanted my H to understand and that I feel for myself as my personal belief is that I didn't contact OWH to get back at him. I did however b/c I wanted to make sure the R was over for the sake of his M and mine. And that I was doing all I cold to prevent it from getting restarted.


I hear ya. The good part is that now you are trying to change. It sounds like you've gotten off to a good start. However there are still unfortunately decisions that you have ot face and consequences. I wonder if you feel that this would make you appear to be a jerk again if you expose.

IMHO, it makes you a man trying to do the right thing, nothing more, nothing less. WW might see it differently. This is where you might express your true intent. And allow her to take ownership for whatever she thinks. She might get it wrong, as far as what your intent is, but if you expose and she allows perhaps you can explain better your motive, your intent.

I'm wondering this also. How do you feel about your wife's transparency? It sounds like from the post above that in some things she isn't transparent. For instance, her thoughts about OW and her feeling it is ok to talke to OM as a frieend.

If you felt she was showing remorse and transparency to a high point then you might approach her about revealing the A to OMW as a point of showing consideration to a friend or acquaintence. I have seen in some incidences on MB where this has occured and the WS took responsibility for their actions in revealing it to the unbeknowst BS. Especially since it sounds that she is an acquaintance to OMW. If you think she wouldn't do this, it may be an indicator that the A needs exposing to OMW.

Just my thoughts.

You are right, I have been sort of waiting for evidence of contact before I tell OMW. You are also right in that I am worried it could be seen as vengeful.

While I would get some personal satisfaction out of the vengeful nature of it (I admit) I really want to do it for 2 reasons: (a) to be sure the EA is over - I need an ally in the OMW to see if it's still going on; and (b) to show my W what a big deal it really was (is?) - when she knows that someone hates her for this, she'll realize what she did. So, my motivation is to save my M - plain and simple. I would get some twisted pleasure out of it too, but that's not the real motivation.

She is more than an acquaintance with OMW. They are friends - not best friends, but more than acquaintances. Also, our kids are good friends.

I don't think she is very transparent. She doesn't agree with the "total honesty" idea. I don't really think she is very remorseful either.

Part of her lack of remorse is based on the fact that it was an EA that lasted about 3 weeks (she had been good friends with OM for about 2 years). She considers that to be pretty much nothing. Also, her anger towards me factors into her lack of remorse.

There is no way on earth she would tell OMW. Every once in awhile she will say she should be able to call OM as friends or go to meetings she used to go to where all this started. My standard response is: "OK, let's tell OMW all that happened and if she agress, it's OK with me". Her response is that it doesn't have anything to do with OMW. She'll never tell her.

I have been trying very hard to change. It's been hard only because of the EA. It's unfortunate she couldn't figure out another way to get my attention. That part is my fault and I do have to face the consequences for it.

Can I tell you something? This is something I learned from other boards I belong to....The affairees nearly 99% of the time say what your wife says above.

Do you understand what that means? Not only does your wife NOT REALLY CARE about what OMW thinks about this....she cares so little that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER.

Now I ask you, this OM - do YOU consider that HIS and your WW's actions might have a little something to do with you???? I mean, c'mon....you're here trying to save your marriage...SO YEP! NO MATTER WHAT LIES THEY'VE TOLD THEMSELVES, NO MATTER WHAT THEY THOUGHT....THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH OMW AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU.



So she's minimizing her actions because of a mere drop in time (3 weeks). I don't care if it was 3 hours or 3 minutes....those minute droplets have developed into a tsunami bearing down on your lives.

Furthermore, it's going to bear down on a person who is unaware that she needs to shore up her defenses. You realize YOUR integrity is in question here, also? It's gonna hurt her a lot more if no one tells her and she finds out a lot of people know or suspect.

I'd have given my left big toe for someone to have told me.....

Let's establish one undisputable fact: Despite your real motives and despite all caution you take to the contrary, exposure will be seen as vengeful by the WS.

Period.

OK?

You cannot avoid this. No BS can. It's as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow.

In this regard the only thing a BS can do is expect your WS to see exposure as vengeful and be prepared with your mantra when the vile spew is launced in your direction: "I'm doing everything I can to try to save my family."

WAT

Dealan-de - W doesn't minimize it because of the duration - rather because it was EA and not PA (and I am as sure as I can be under the circumstances that it was not a PA).

I agree with you that her statements are ridiculous. Obviously it involves OMW.

I know the answer to this question I am about to ask you, but I will ask it anyway: would you have wanted to be told if the A was a 3 week EA and there had been NC in almost 2 months?