ML - Based on her personality and what she has said lately, I was expecting her to be real pissed. Not because she is really like that, but more because of the nature of all this and what's happened over the past few months. Also, she will see OMW again at some point - there is no way around it - and, regardless of what she thinks from my perspective, she can't want to face OMW.

But she didn't get pissed - I did.

She is also at least a little worried that OMW will tell all the other moms at school - I have to say that I love the fact that she is worried about that. That won't happen, but who cares.

Someone above said that W does not appreciate the ramifications of all this. That may be true to some extent, but I think she appreciates it a lot more than she did a couple of days ago. At least she has to tell her freinds that OMW knows....

I also think she sort of feels like a fool for keeping after OM when he wasn't returning the favor (at least that's how it appears without talking to OMW yet).

I don't understand - why is this about leaving the church instead of using the church to do its job? Is adultery poo poo'd at this church like at most others?

What am I missing here? Granted, I don't "belong" to an organized church, so I may not understand what belonging means. But if being a member doesn't include seeking help to have the "rules" understood and met, what good does being a member offer?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
WAT

WAT, I don't understand your confusion. One of them has to leave the church. They can't continue going to the same church. He doesn't need the church to tell him that.

Also, he has already TOLD his pastor and he did nothing, so he knows he isn't going to get much help there.

OK, I agree. The church was worthless in this case. It did not practice what it preaches. In this case 19 should find another church where the authoritive "morals" might just work as advertised. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can he get his money back from the collection plate?

WAT

lol! Agree, he should ask for a refund! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just talked to OMW. Nothing earth-shattering at all.

OM's version of the "story" was pretty much the same as W's with one exception:

Their versions of the night at the retreat were a little different. W says OM told her he loved her, they held hands and he kissed her on cheek. Said they discussed how they had crushes on each other. OM says he never told her he loved her, never told her he had a crush on her (that's a lie per one of my taped calls), says they never held hands and says he never kissed her on the cheek.

So, one of them is lying about that -

OM says they were never more than friends - W says it did cross the line for a short period of time - a couple of weeks. Someone is lying about that too -

Also, OMW says OM figured out the whole thing had gotten strange when she showed up at his office with the cookies - I think I believe that - again, his office is 25-30 miles from my house - not an easy drive. I bet he did wonder what was going on when she showed up there -

Any ideas?

My idea is that the OM is VASTLY minimizing the affair in order to make it appear she was pursuing him against his will. You already know he lied, 19. The OM KNEW it was wrong, which is evidenced by his failure to TELL his wife.

Did you talk about the church issue?


She should never go anywhere the OM is likely to be, 19. NEVER. Did you mean to say she can't WAIT to face the OMW? Or did you mean what you wrote? What does the OMW say about seeing your W again?

ML - First, I think you are totally right about what OM is doing - he is minimizing the A. I think OMW agrees with you about not telling her etc. I think he also did a pretty good job in talking his way around it. I don't think it is over yet, however.

On the other hand, I actually believe that since about Feb 1 or so it has been W pursuing him. I hate to admit that, but I think that is true. I think he backed off real fast when I found out - it was not a game to him anymore. W kept after it.

OMW and W are bound to see each other at some point. City where we live is pretty big (1 million plus), but it's really a pretty small town. Also, kids do go to the same school. OMW doesn't want to see her now, but she also said she wasn't really mad at her - said she feels sorry for her. Said she would probably get mad later.

And I meant that I am sure W does not want to see OMW - she's bound to be very embarrassed if nothing else.

On this call, OMW and I did not discuss church. I am not sure she appreciates what really happened like I do so she may not feel the same way. I want to give her a little more time so maybe they can leave and not me. It will probably have to be me, however.

19, have you had a discussion with your W about absolute no contact and the fact that someone is going to have to leave this church? I really do not think this is over, 19, and suspect you are going to go much further than this. By that, I mean, exposing AGAIN to the pastor and exposing to the folks we spoke about earlier.

I think your pastor needs to know that the TRUTH has now come outand that he was LIED to before. He should have an issue with your W teaching a SS class. In a normal church, she would be released from that duty, and rightfully so. That would serve as a much needed wake up call for her, I suspect.

ML - We have discussed NC again - and that someone has to leave church. Discussed it yesterday, in fact, and she agreed to it. I can't tell you how much I hate to do that.

This church is too liberal to do anything about her EA. If there was no SF, rector won't consider it a real A. Even if it was a PA, still don't think he would tell her she can't teach - not much condemnation goes on there. Of course, that is one reason why I don't mind leaving the church. Neither my W nor I is as liberal as the church is.

Why don't you think it's over? Anything in particular or just based on your experience?

Also, I think she has now had a wake-up call. She is embarrased and the thought of having to see OMW is bound to bug the crap out of her.

Here's another question for you: we have discussed NC again and she has agreed (of course, she agreed before too). How do I make my point about NC without giving an ultimatum? Any ideas?

19, here is how you make your point about nc, tell her that this is a protective boundary that you are ADAMANT she respect in order to aide your recovery. Let her know there will be SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES if contact is broken.[I don't give a RATS [censored] if she views this as an "ultimatum" - it is what it is!] If you are willing to keep her after an affair, nc is the LEAST she can do in exchange for your forgiveness.

I would print up the Four Rules of Protection and discuss with her a PLAN to restore your marriage from the damage she has inflicted. She must start rebuilding the trust she destroyed in order for your marriage to recovery.

Print this up and give it to her: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Here is a sample no contact letter that should be sent to the OM:

Dr. Harley?s (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she?s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

It sounds like your "church" is very far from doing what they are supposed to be doing and were not there for you in your time of need. An affair was allowed to THRIVE under their roof, because of that.

Honestly, 19, what in the world do you get out of a church that promotes THEIR OWN AGENDA over God's? As you can see, they are more interested in their OWN AGENDA than *YOU*. Why not find a REAL CHURCH?

ML - I don't think the church is all that bad. Look at it from the rector's POV - we talked to him one time, W told him the story - mainly that W and OM talked about their feelings for each other and how they were not going to act on them .....

That was on February 3 - Rector told W he believed them - he believed they weren't going to act on it (i.e. no PA). Since then, obviously the phone calls did continue (almost all initiated by W) and there was the "cookie trip". Rector knows none of that.

Alot of people would not consider that to be an A at all - not even an EA. I know you do, and so do I. MC said it was too - flat out told W it was an A.

Like I said too, it's not a condeming type of church - I wish it were more so. Probably doesn't matter, however, since it looks like we'll be leaving.

19, I think the fact that your W and the OM successfully lied to the rector explains alot, so maybe I shouldn't judge him so harshly. But he probably should be brought up to date and informed that it is an affair and that it has continued. This church has an OBLIGATION to condemn sin, that is their JOB. If they are not doing that, they are not doing their job. And they should not have an adulteress in a position of authority in the church. Just as a wayward pastor is removed, a wayward sunday school teacher should be removed from her position of authority over children.

19,

""Here's a question: Almost everyone said W would be furious when she found out I told OMW. I even thought she would be. Well, that was not the reaction I got from her at all. She wasn't mad""

""Anyone have any thoughts on why that is?""

Not sure about the timelines here, but it sounds like she knew already and was prepared. Could a little OM birdy told her?

k

To my knowledge, OM has not talked to rector about this. If he did, rector probably believed him too.

One thing I think you do need to consider - a lot of people don't even know what an EA is or think an EA is an A. I am not one of those people, and I know you are not, but I do think a lot of people are like that. I guess a priest should know and appreciate it.

I don't really know. It is a liberal place, relatively speaking, for a church. I don't really like that aspect of it, but it is.

krusht - That is pretty much impossible (that OM told her) based on the timing of it all and the fact that I know 100% he didn't call her (unless she has a secret phone).

And it was not as if she didn't react at all, it just wasn't anger.

Personally, I think the reason is

(a) she had still been in contact with OM even though she had repeatedly promised she was not - so, she was caught - what could she really say? and

(b) I think she is embarrased now. Remember, OMW was her friend and now OMW knows she has been chasing OM.

So, I think those are the main reasons she reacted like she did. But, I don't know.

19, and you and I both know that anyone who thinks this is WRONG. PERIOD. The deeper connection in any relationship for a WOMAN is the emotional aspect, not the physical aspect. If it were JUST physical, a woman could just walk away. It is the EMOTIONAL tie that attracts the woman. So, if you encounter anyone who really thinks an emotional affair is not a REAL affair, please disabuse them of this very misguided notion.

ML -I couldn't agree with you more - but hopefully you see what I am saying. I really don't think a lot of people realize that an EA is just as bad or worse.

One detail I forgot about - so, Saturday night we're sitting in a restaurant drinking - never ordered food. I tell her I told OMW etc. and we're arguing etc. We get up to leave and I tell her I am not going home and I walk off. I actually went to a nearby bar and ate dinner and had some more .... So, she apparently drove around and looked for me - I wasn't answering the phone. She can't find me and she goes home. She called 2 friends and then called her IC.

I don't know why, but I think it's funny as he11 that she went home and called her IC on a Saturday night and talked to her for 10 minutes. I wish she had used the real phone...

I probably should not have gone home at all - but I did after an hour and half or so.

What was her response when you told her you told OMW?

I DO NOT like her IC and think she is a big part of the problem. An IC often works AGAINST the best interest of the marriage and increases your chances of divorce.