Thank you for all your work on this, Eagle. I'm afraid it didn't do anything for you...something you already knew, I guess.

The most important question was the last one...'cuz I'm tricky...and if you feel the same before and after...then I don't know what to say.

A by-product of embracing all of you...that light-bulb moment, releases a lot of judgment, disdain, anger, fear and frustration...really connects humans to humans...

You said you knew all along not to use those tools...a choice you make...then why the anger at others, I wonder?

Interesting, though...all you learned from FWHhood, your commitment to not being wayward when you took your vows with your present wife...and she betrays you, instead of the other way around.

I've viewed your marital struggle, and they make more sense to me now, I guess...because you have been betrayed...and you're choosing to stay and fight for your marriage...when you betrayed, you divorced. You're doing a lot of internal rework, aren't you?

On your other thread, I went through the effort-addiction that I had...and looked at "Lazy" as you did; until I got the fact that I am loved without earning; before a word or action taken...period. We grow up fearing laziness...often triggers our abandonment fear to hear our father say, "I will NOT have a lazy child!" which says, they'll get rid of us for wanting fun instead of doing our chores.

We didn't invent lazy...God made no one lazy...fear can paralyze and depress...look like what lazy was described as...beaten down, numb, crushingly empty...not lazy.

I urge you to drop this part of judgment, Eagle...it is a measuring device and God says you are not the measurer...He is...this belief will distance you, activate your judgment, assessment and it has a payoff in you, a false one, which might destroy your marriage, even now.

((((Eagle))))

LA

LA,

I do feel like a lot of judgement has left and I do feel better about me as well as everyone else. I believe you did help me and I am deeply grateful.

I'm not sure I understand the last paragraph. Could you explain a little more? I'm having a moment of mental weakness LOL!

I know I am not the measurer, and glad I'm not. I don't want to be a measurer, I want to enjoy life, no holds barred and measureing and judgeing are going to hold me back so I will have to stop and let God handle that so I can get on with the good and great things in life.

LA you truly have helped me more than you will ever know. My hat is off to you, you are truly one of God's children, and a special one at that.

Thank you!

Now I'm having sentiments.

Thank you, Eagle, for posting back.

You mean about lazy? Judging laziness? Do you think you have to judge lazy? A little, a lot? This particular judgment...believing humans can be lazy...is a measuring judgment...oh, heck, they all are, aren't they?

Wait, maybe not? You judge someone a liar...then you are saying not that they lie (a little, a lot); you are saying they ARE a liar...in their essence...

So judgments do differ, don't they? What if humans tell lies...to themselves and others...even to God...then they wouldn't be liars...they would be someone who tells lies, wouldn't they?

When you experience someone laying on the couch all day, watching tv, listless, or in bed for 20 hours out of 24...you may judge them as acting lazy...they may be hiding from life...experiencing paralyzing depression, rejection, fears...we don't know. Even if they say, "This is me. I am lazy" are they? Or are they a human who is actively taking care of themselves and their life?

Removing automatic labels helps set the beliefs we are replacing firmly into place. It is minor...many will say it's not necessary...I believe it is. I had to work lazy out of me...the concept, the label, the judgment. It was a sneaky component of my self-bashing...and I used it on others...measuring them...assessing...which gave my poor self relief from the bashing.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Discernment is much different than judgment...same as boundary enforcement is very different from selfish demands...discerning what you can't know from what you think you can is really important...it's a journey, Eagle.

The less you judge the more you accept...the clearer is the separation from human to human...gives respectful individuality and respects self...accepts self...accepts others.

Hey, I like you having sentiments...I think. That's not gum, right?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

You mean about lazy? Judging laziness? Do you think you have to judge lazy? A little, a lot? This particular judgment...believing humans can be lazy...is a measuring judgment...oh, heck, they all are, aren't they?

[color:"blue"]Not really judging lazy, kind of like first impression thing. After I get to know someone then it becomes clearer, lazy, working on self, depressed, etc... I try not to judge at first impression mainly because the first impression I leave people with is not always what society percieves as good. I tend to be too open, speak my mind, to quote my SIL "He is so very opinionated, I can't stand him!". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Tends to scare some people. It's not intentional, just me. [/color]

Wait, maybe not? You judge someone a liar...then you are saying not that they lie (a little, a lot); you are saying they ARE a liar...in their essence...

So judgments do differ, don't they? What if humans tell lies...to themselves and others...even to God...then they wouldn't be liars...they would be someone who tells lies, wouldn't they?
[color:"blue"] Yes by degrees judgments do differ, and yes you can sya they would be someine who lies as opposed to labeling them as liars. I don't really like labels as labels tend to, IMHO, clump people into groups, races, status, things like that. I don't like it when someone does that to me and I don't want to do that to anyone else. [/color]

When you experience someone laying on the couch all day, watching tv, listless, or in bed for 20 hours out of 24...you may judge them as acting lazy...they may be hiding from life...experiencing paralyzing depression, rejection, fears...we don't know. Even if they say, "This is me. I am lazy" are they? Or are they a human who is actively taking care of themselves and their life?
[color:"blue"] Initial impression might be lazy, but as I get to know someone then the picture becomes clearer. Lazy can sometimes be a misinterpretation as in "how do I know that person didn't just get through working a mid shift?" Just very tired from working hard, either physical or mental work, both are tiring in different ways yet the end result is the same, we feel listless and sleepy, but maybe can't sleep. Been there done and felt that way. Exactly, taking care of themselves, trying to recharge if you will themselves. [/color]

Removing automatic labels helps set the beliefs we are replacing firmly into place. It is minor...many will say it's not necessary...I believe it is. I had to work lazy out of me...the concept, the label, the judgment. It was a sneaky component of my self-bashing...and I used it on others...measuring them...assessing...which gave my poor self relief from the bashing.
[color:"blue"]You have just hit on what I could not put into words. This is why I said you really have helped and this exercise has meant a lot to me.[/color]


Discernment is much different than judgment...same as boundary enforcement is very different from selfish demands...discerning what you can't know from what you think you can is really important...it's a journey, Eagle.
[color:"blue"]Very true [/color]

The less you judge the more you accept...the clearer is the separation from human to human...gives respectful individuality and respects self...accepts self...accepts others.
[color:"blue"] YUP This thread has caused me to take a deep look into myself, I have found things I forgot I knew. You are so right about less judge=more respect, acceptance, and others [/color]

Hey, I like you having sentiments...I think. That's not gum, right?
[color:"blue"]Sentiments=emotional feelings Epiphany maybe? Maybe not, but like watching a movie that takes you back in time to a very hard or good time in your life that you know will never happen again, even though you want it with all of your being. Extreme feelings, like a happy part in a movie that triggers good, warm feeling, maybe chokes you up a bit.

More often than not I see myself as <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />[/color]

Ahhh, Sentiments...I got it.

Nice to see you owning those feeling villagers, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The intensity of those moments for me, Eagle, comes from being alive...entirely human and experiencing...so I take them as epiphanies, also.

A full package deal.

And to think people fear owning all of themselves...when it truly feels like coming home.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((Eagle)))

LA

LA,

Truky does. You are so right and it feels so much better, actually easier to live with.

Hi LA,

I have a question! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I absolutely understand that the less you judge, the more you accept. I'm having trouble with the first part, though --what's the difference between discernment and judgment?

Can you expound on this some more?
Thanks!
HTBH

(By the way, I recently had a long chat with my former co-worker -- my old gossip buddy -- and I didn't gossip at all! We had a lovely, positive, fun conversation -- no negativity or gossip. YAY!)

Oh, HTBH...how included you must feel...rewarded in your self-respect and freedom. Big kudos and thank yous for sharing that marvelous update.

Hey, knowing the difference between discerning and judging is still a struggle for me...maybe you could help me out, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Going back to the distinction between a measuring judgment...which has a comparison, and a judgment of self...essence...a label...maybe the difference comes in when you respectfully judge, which would equal discernment.

Here is where there is no attack...there is observation. Hey, you made an assumption or mindread...and there is no judgment...just observation, like an explanation...a sharing.

Judgment with measurement is more about the judge than the person being judged...the judge is comparing to self...as we all do...involves expectations, holding others to standards which are only our own...has a lot of fear, not love in it...

Could that be the difference? Not the old "I want only the best for you" which was my parents' mantra when I was growing up...more like Dr Phil's, "How's that working for you?" and if you can say, "Swell!" then you haven't been judged...just something observed...no comparison...no labeling?

In the bible, God says do not judge...how could we? We always lack information to do so...we don't judge people's souls or selves...even when they share all of themselves with us, we still don't have all the information, do we? What they didn't know about themselves couldn't be shared...and if we assume what wasn't, how accurate can we be?

Judging actions is allowed...like infidelity, lying, stealing...all the ten commandments are actions, aren't they? Even in the first one...to love God mightily...by choice...which leads the pack. There is no, "Don't be a bad person" in there, that I can see? He could have said, "Stop doing stuff to HURT me!"

Or that following the commandments makes you a good person, deserving of God...or even Jesus' encapsulation of loving God first, and your neighbor as yourself...these are the standards God says gives you abundant life...

Discerning your limits and power, embracing all of who you are as God created...and separating these from your choices and actions, isn't easy...we've been taught to judge, assess, measure...to know if we gained ground, became good, are mirrored well and if we mirror others correctly...

What a rat race.

Discerning your intent...being aware...is more important than knowing others' intent...judging your intent as bad or good may have been our steadying hand as children...but as an adult? Pure intent...from our standards...refining our perspective, choosing our actions and being committed to being...well, I think somewhere in there is the vast difference between judgment and discernment...a couple of molecules apart.

What do you think?

LA

Perceptions are such a tricky thing - It took me months to wrap my head around perceptions, and how my H's perception and opinion is OKAY and it doesn't make me wrong, and I dont have to understand or agree - just ACCEPT that he sees things differently, and we can both be right....hard concept to wrap but once I got it - life DRASTICALLY changed...for the first time in a long time, I am generally happy...

Recently a new demon surfaced...I discovered I enjoy the happy of HIGHS that come of LOWS...usually from drama or stress in life...I feel more alive during these times. My new healthy me recognized the pattern immediately when I felt the HIGH from a stressful moment. It wasn't as HIGH of a high as it used to be - as now I do have general happiness day in and day out.


We are such controlling people by nature, and by spending our whole lives trying to control outcomes, other's reactions, etc, we actually end up letting it all control us - and we never feel rested, relaxed, contented...we fight to get heard, to get people to understand us, to get acknowledged - for feelings to be validated from OUR perspecitves and never get rewarded for it...

But by releasing that control as LA teaches, all of a suddn those things have no control on YOU...and suddenly life is getting better...you no longer have this deep urge to be right or validated, and you can start to understand others, and their perceptions - even WHEN you don't agree with them - you accept them as another way of seeing things...and you are okay with stating what YOU think is right.

In a reactionary marriage - LIKE yours eagle, and like so many others...I think this concept is KEY to redeveloping a healthy relationship - letting go of the reactions, control, judgements and being RIGHT!

Dorry,

This is so true. I appreciate you for sharing your thoughts and story. I have learned from it. LA has helped me immensly. I have already noticed positive changes in my perceptions and actions because of a greater awareness of me and what's inside and why. I have also noticed WW has a more positive attitude towards me.

I am certainly a believer in this exercise. I can't say enough good about it. Your post reinforces how positive this exercise really is.

LA - THANK YOU!
Dorry - Thank You Too!

Thanks, LA! It does feel good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It wasn't even really that hard -- just being actively aware of what I'm saying before I say it is really the key (well, that and knowing that I don't want to have to apologize to everyone again for gossiping!). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Hey, that's not fair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I like what you're saying about the difference between judging/measuring/labeling PEOPLE, and respectfully judging ACTIONS.

Because I also have problems with enforcing boundaries. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And I think that's related. See, I TOTALLY get that selfish demands are harmful. But I never realized that it was acceptable to ask respectfully (quite the concept!). And I certainly never learned that it was OK to enforce boundaries if I needed to protect myself.

(Really??? I can LEAVE a painful situation??? I don't have to sit there and take it??)

Anyway, my point is, if I'm going to have actual working boundaries, I need to decide what I believe is acceptable in terms of what I am willing to allow myself to do and what I am willing to allow to be done to me. Which means I need to be able to discern when a behavior (mine or someone else's) is acceptable to ME.

Ah, so there it is. It's OK -- no, essential -- for me to respectfully decide how I feel regarding a behavior and whether I will continue to do it/continue to be in the presence of someone else doing it. What is harmful is the judging/labeling of people, measuring them to see if they are good enough, or deciding that they are bad/wrong/whatever.

How's that sound? I'm thinking while typing, so these ideas are still only half-formed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


That sounds GREAT. How do I get there?? LOL.

I see what Dorry is saying, too, and how it fits in. If I'm desperate to find worth and validation outside me, I'm going to be constantly trying to figure out how I measure up. Which means I HAVE to judge people or I would never know where I stand. But if I can validate MYSELF, if I can believe in me and know that I have the power to choose the actions I believe are best for me, then I don't NEED to look to others to measure my worth.

I still need to be able to discern which behaviors are helpful and which aren't, so that I can protect myself (in the case of boundaries) and so that I can act from my core values (in the case of, say, not gossiping anymore).

How's that for hair-splitting? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I think judgment vs. discernment is similar to demands vs. requests -- it may look similar, but the intent is miles apart.

Whew, LA, now I'm tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again, and thanks to you too, Dorry!

HTBH

Hmm - I hadn't read the beginning of this thread. I will have to look at that book. A great book I did was called Released from Shame - moving beyond the pain of the past - by Sandra D Wilson, and there are alot of Biblical Principles in it - it was great for me to read. Helping me solve the problems of never seeming to get enough affirmation, detructive relationships, etc.

It's amazing that shame comes in forms we never even knew were aspects or side effects of shame...

These excersizes are great LA...I am gonna have to try it out.

One big eye opener for me was this chart from my book. I as a strong rescuer for most of my life....

Personal Responsibility and Overdependent Controlling Styles...

Weak Victim (underresponsible)

• I am so weak, I am a "wreck"
  
• I have no responsibility for anyone or anything
  
• I can't change anybody
  
• I need someone to take care of me all the time
  
• Everything is "too much" for me
  
• I desperately need you

Human Adult (Responsible for self)

• I have strengths and weaknesses. I am a human being
  
• I am responsible for myself and to others
  
• I can change ONLY myself
  
• I can take care of myself most of the time. I trust God to care for me at all times.
  
• Somethings are "too much" for me, but nothing is ever "too much" for God.
• I desperately need God, and I long for relationships

Strong Rescuer (overresponsible)

• I am so strong I am a "rock"
  
• I am responsible for everything/everyone.
  
• I can change everybody
  
• I will take care of you all of the time
  
• Nothing is "too much" for me.
  
• I deseperately NEED to be needed

It goes on to say once you know what type you may be...to begin to learn ho to discriminate between being responsible TO and being responsible FOR someone or something. That you are responsible for yourself and the concequences for your own actions and choices.

You have responsibilities TO others if you have entered freely into a relationship that has obligations that were mutually agreed upon. You are responsibly for meeting those obligations...but are not responsible for them or their choices. You cannot take responsibility of what you cannot completely control, andyou cannot control any situation involving the will of another adult.

There is also a whole chapter on released to forgive the shamers!!! Which is about forgiving -and misunderstandings about biblical forgiveness and the principles of forgiveness...

my favorite chapter was about understanding concequence and change...

Anyways - I am babbling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HTBH,

"Anyway, my point is, if I'm going to have actual working boundaries, I need to decide what I believe is acceptable in terms of what I am willing to allow myself to do and what I am willing to allow to be done to me. Which means I need to be able to discern when a behavior (mine or someone else's) is acceptable to ME."

Yes! Yes! This is where I started...I made a code...which were my standards, that which I didn't allow myself to do to others; which also were my boundaries! What is your code? There's one more dimension...boundaries are what you don't allow others to do to you without consequences (determined in advanced) and what you do NOT allow you to do to you.

All three match. Same with your standards...what you determine you are not allowed to do to others...then you cannot do to yourself...

Balance.

Sound like this requires hyperawareness, constant assessment? Nope. Just as changing your belief for gossip was much easier than you thought...thinking before you shared...standards and boundaries are choosing your beliefs...replacing the ones which were all over the place...and living from them are much easier than you might suspect.

The judging goes out the window with this matching set. Why? Because if you do not allow yourself to define others, then you'll begin to hear when they are defining you. Simple enforcement? Can you rephrase that please? Second enforcement: I hear that as a disrespectful judgment. Third enforcement: I do not allow myself to define you anymore and do not allow you to define me. I will resume my part of our conversation in ten minutes.

My H and I have progressed to laughing about DJs...even in jokes...which takes the bite out of them...increases awareness and oddly (not in my expectation) increases intimacy...just through mutual acknowledgment...how 'bout that? I have no idea how far this road leads, or what atmosphere growth takes us to, but it is pretty marvelous already. I'm blushing right now for realizing what I have wanted and feared all my life is like the softest sigh, surrounding you, on a contented day. It's green and lush...and I remember trying to control it into my life, demand, run from and manipulate...truly prostitute myself for it...

when it was waiting for me, respectfully.

Ack, I'm waxing...I can feel my clarity waning. LOL

Finding worth and validation inside of you...unlock it. You already have worth, same as everyone else. Believe it. You are as valid a creature of God as any on this earth...own it. Unlocking is taking action to enforce your own belief...valuing yourself--your opinions, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, actions and choose from your code. Admire and appreciate (which you're already doing in recounting your more recent conversation with ex-co-worker); accept and celebrate...recognize and amend...make your boundary enforcements with humans in mind...and that we live vulnerably, in the flesh, with no protection.

The less we choose to protect ourselves from others, the safer we are...a paradox...boundary enforcements do not protect you from harm or pain...they cure it, afterwards. You no longer double the pain with self-betrayal...you amend it to yourself. Know how pain halves itself when you share it...speak...see it in front of you instead of nicking you on the inside? When you build walls around to protect from pain, then you contain all of your pain and multiply it...no protection there, huh?

Once our goal is to not live pain-free...in pain avoidance...we greatly reduce our pain and increase our joy.

Funny world. Amazing design. Being human rocks.

A lot of your standards are evident in your post...acceptance, respect, consideration, honesty, appreciation...find them all in just your one post, HTBH...they are yours.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(very grateful for you and your posts...you are an addition to my life)

LA

Dorry,

Great chart...you and I come to the same realizations through different books...nice to know so many people out there are writing these for us and there isn't just one way to the same place, huh?

And your excitement is contagious...you're bubbly as well as babbly...

I brook no response.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Thanks for your lovely post! I love it when you start waxing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure exactly what my code is yet, but I'm working on it, thinking about it, mulling it over. Not gossiping is definitely part of it!! LOL. And acceptance, of course, and honesty, and kindness (but not the I'll-tell-you-what's-best-for-you false kindness), and ummm, I'm still working on it, but there's more... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to read your post again, because there was so much good stuff in in that I want to take it all in!

I'm grateful for you and your posts, as well! I've heard it said that the teacher will come when the student is ready, and you certainly came into my life at just the right time!

HTBH

Right back atcha, HTBH!

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

HTBH

Hmmm...where's believer?

Believer? Youwhooo...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Update!

Vacation & Sister's wedding went well, things are improving day by day. That's how I feel anyway and also MPOV. Seems like WW feels the same, but can't speak for her, just my perception!

((LA))

Thank you!

Eagle...your update is sunlight to my spirit...thank you. Knowing you are in process...facing other sensitive times and truly feeling the respect and ownership, freeing yourself, well, that's awesome. I don't hear you despairing, comparing, assessing, itemizing or detailing your life...that's the freedom, I hope, talking.

Is it?

I hear gratitude, excitement, joy and a touch of relief...am I close?

Thank you for being who you are, Eagle, and sharing...

LA