LA, thanks so much for all your feedback. I don't feel like the vermin I felt like a couple of days ago, like you said, a spiral staircase, and each time we get to the same pole, we are more ready to learn from it and keep climbing. Thanks for your reassurance that I am not responsible to know what I did not know, I need to post that somewhere <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Irresponsible/helpless – They are there to keep myself from consequences if I make my own choice and it turns out the be drastically the wrong one - again.

"What if it is your very vigilance which is harming you and others in your life? What if you see others as irresponsible because you have made it your highest priority to take responsibility...and have...for what was not and is not yours at all?"
Yes to both, this is why I needed Alanon so much, to have a safe place to learn about letting go of the result, of trusting that others have a Higher Power, and don't need me getting in the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"because you haven't given yourself true freedom and responsibility?"
Wow, I had to think on that some! Yes, I don't leave others to Higher Power just for their sake, but for my sake, too. And it isn't selfish to do that.

"you're choosing to believe the PERSON is irresponsible...instead of acting irresponsibly.

No one is helpless."
Yes, on both! I have seen that to be true over our time together.

thoughtless/selfish/bossy – "This is the payoff for resentment...signalled by justification...justification comes from fear, not love...know the signals."
Yes, I feel like I can get through any conflict by giving more. And I saw the "what's in it for me" in negotioation to be more proof of this, when the truth is that it's not. It's also not true that I am more equal than anyone else, that I am better eqipped to suffer consequences. Separate and equal.


Mean/angry –

"They fought your fear...came from it...to protect you from feeling helpless, powerless over others and therefore, could be harmed by them...they came because they love self. They know it and love it. They are your signal you're ignoring something, your Giver is being abject and a doormat...and self is feeling degraded...and self does not need to be degraded."
Wow, you hit the nail on the head, LA, thank you for seeing through and clarifying this.

"Could it be that when you see others being mean or angry, you experience their fear and pain underneath those...moreso than the aggression they represent? Do you actually react more to fear and pain in others, [than] in yourself?"
Sure I do, only by identifying what the fear is can I hope to get safe from it by learning to avoid it. To learn to walk the eggshells better. Now as an adult I can't honestly tell you that this is truth or this is memory that may have become distorted over time, but as I remember it, the first time my mom took us and left my stepfather, we all felt a very intense fear that any of us would be hurt and hurt bad if my stepfather found us, to punish my mother for leaving. I was in fear for her life. This idea was reinforced many times, that there is no getting away, that when you think you're alone, you may not be. That when you think you are having a private conversation, the phone may be tapped. I am learning through other experiences, thankfully, that this is false.

In my marriage, H gets irritated that I am not okay opening blinds when I sleep, or saying anything that could be misconstrued out in public. This is a small part of why H wants us to move, because I've truly felt safer when we've moved away before.

But now I've learned another option, to set a boundary and get away from the problem behavior. Leave it to the individual to figure it out, it's not my responsibility.

"You had an inner circle...intimacy builds trust...and you were taught we beat our inner circle (including ourselves) and treat the rest of the world respectfully, cautiously...falsely. Please grieve and forgive. This was learned behavior...which you are relearning as an adult. Flipping your behavior to match your priorities will give you that peace, that easing off of all the judgment...because you now realize you can choose to treat yourself tenderly, lovingly, with acceptance and celebration...and so will you treat your DH and your children (who may be part way in that inner circle or growing towards being in it, or there already)...and ironically, by letting go what others think...the strangers, the non-intimates (which comes from fear), you will treat them most likely the same, to a lesser degree." I feel I'm getting there, what an awesome, wonderful, hopeful thing I'm looking forward to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to ask H, and the girls, to see if I am right on this.

Thanks so much again, LA, I'm going to think on this a little more, and get back to you with another chunk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Thanks for your reassurance that I am not responsible to know what I did not know, I need to post that somewhere"

Forehead.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why? Because what you do to yourself, you do to others...I know you know that...think about this...if you hold yourself responsible for what you did not know, you'll do that to your children...and I know I did..."How could you not know that leaving your bike outside will get it stolen?"

Yech. Do not do that to yourself. Please?

"Irresponsible/helpless – They are there to keep myself from consequences if I make my own choice and it turns out the be drastically the wrong one - again."

Can you see the child in you who created this? A child believes that they can keep themselves from consequences...your adult self knows everything...a thousand choices a day have consequences...and they are what they are, tiny and large, those ripples that happen when we choose...and the funniest part of choice is...the only choice we do not have is the power to NOT choose...

Children feel helpless/powerless...when adults act that out, it's a signal. What does it tell you, really? That you cannot be wrong, do damage, make mistakes or cause injury? That negative consequences have no value, are what you live with careful planning to NOT experience?

Can you see where your judgment is essential to having these two villagers jump up? Remove the right/wrong, good/bad...and tell me how you then experience the same situation.

Would you consider another layer to what you're experiencing right now? You don't have to look forward to being anyone different...the more you learn and know...the more you know you already are...that these villagers, from love and fear, helped you to create a false self you've been serving...and all you look forward to being...you already are...in your true self.

Others see you truly, I believe...like you're telling Slick...my compassion, coming from your respect and mine for you, sees more of your true self than you do right now...and I ask you to honor that self, choose to believe in your self, long before you know you always could, always can.

LA

Post it on my forehead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> reminds me of a joke I saw from Jeff Foxworthy on TV, "If I ever got a tatoo, it would be of my... wife's birthday, and my anniversary, right here on my wrist, by my watch" Yes, I've decided to stop doing that to myself.

Did I tell you about how I was at Staples, and got an Easy button? You press it, and it says "That was Easy" The kids loved it, but they lost it anyways <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I wish I had that button right now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, because once the decision is made, yes, it does get easier.

Your post to Slick, wow, worth the wait!

I already am, a similar idea to being a human being, not a human doing, wow, I can visualize that, all I need to know, already inside, and if I get real quiet, I can almost hear it! This is a real light bulb day for me, and you top it off with a huge light bulb moment, that THIS is why I don't believe my H's kind words, I tune them out, don't feel them, mark them off as insincere, as if they don't count, because of my filter, that I haven't earned that yet. Like you've said, that I act as if love is something you earn. I don't know why I didn't understand that before, 110% believe it, post it on my forehead!

I love my husband, my kids, because they are, not depending on whether they jumped through the right hoops that day, LA, and that's tahnks to our talks together, thank you! And now, I can really extend that to myself, to KNOW that this is true and right. Complete and whole. I'm in tears, happy tears. I'd thought I'd got it before, but I really feel it now!

I've talked about starting my day over, this is the first time I'm going to do this on a positive note, I'm overwhelmed with this, I'm going to go pick up the kids, and then start over, shower, feel fresh and new <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and just be!

((((((EO)))))))

You're gonna get it again and again...trust that...trust yourself...focus on the reconnect not the disconnection...one is coming from love, the other fear.

Thank you for sharing your happy tears with me...I feel the relief, the support, the trust right now within myself by witnessing what you're experiencing...that's how you enhance my life, EO.

What a marvelous idea of starting your day over right now...brilliant!

LA

judgmental/know-it-all - "I want you to ask judgment and know-it-all again to tell you why they are in you...there is more than false protection..."
This weekend I've been trying on this new perspective, "honoring that self, choose to believe in your self, long before you know you always could, always can."
Living and experiencing from this perspective, asking judgemental again, really I can see again what I already knew, that I've had a lot of judgement towards myself. I formed that habit I think from the belief that if I punish myself hard enough, I won't repeat my mistakes. Likewise, with others, if I put others down in my mind enough, then I will be able to not do what they're doing.

I do a lot of talking myself into something. I remember, when I'd been on the board a month, I looked back through my posts, and would you believe this, they were all advice to myself, to that villager in myself that I'd recognized a poster struggling with.

For example, my neighbor has a 5 month old. I love to hold "baby Batman," whick is his nickname, and my neighbor is generous with sharing LOL. When my other neighbors comment on how they're so glad to be past the baby years, I chime in, "who wants to miss out on sleep another year!" I think mybe we're all just trying to talk ourselves into that, as if it's not good enough to not be willing to do something, we have to make up "good enough" reasons.

The judgement also comes from not feeling good enough.


incompetent –

"could it be this was what you created in yourself as your way to know you're making progress, seeing danger, staying vigilant and to artificially heighten your awareness to an extreme? To protect you...where you are not being attacked any longer."
Well, I still feel attacked, LOL, in a different form. H would still tell you I'm not meeting his ENs, if only I'd get lipo, and lose weight, and get lasik, and mop the floor every day, and keep house better, and get into decorating, and move up in work, and most of all move to SoCal! This is where separate and equal is really helping, although to be honest, typing that still gave me a sinking feeling that I won't get there in my lifetime. Like you said, though, we learn from it and start climbing the staircase again more easily each time we pass. And I have voice in me now that says, "human being, not human doing"



Predatory "...you could even say that attempting to get our needs met from the outside is...because we have no control...can't earn, force or influence enough to change that eternal human fact....hunting for our own needs, wants and desires...you can see it created from the false belief we have that we earn our needs being met...especially by meeting others' needs. Not an awful thing...a human one."
Thanks, LA, for being willing to repeat this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Crazymaking "Have you told anyone that they shouldn't feel what they feel...don't feel that way...think what they think...believe what they believe?"

Yes, to all of the above. A dear friend has a diagnosis of paranoia, and she calls concerned that protective services will take her kid away. Wow, what you told me about incompetent above, a hypervigilance, I understand better now, but this weekend, I was trying to ask questions to get her to stop worrying about it. Eventually I came to the understanding that she wanted to hold onto this worry, it is a choice totally within her power, and stopped trying to influence her, and we were really able to connect after that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

So these villagers aren't all bad, they have a purpose beyond being devious, not good or bad, they just are.

Divisive - I meant this as pitting one against another, and yet, oh my goodness, if I'm open to a positive interpretation, I do this every day! "Okay girls, let's see who's going to be the first one with their seat belt buckled today!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I've done this in a more dishonest way, too, right now, my parents think H is too snobby to see them, but the reality is that he's playing along to keep distance between our families, because I still haven't been honest with my mom about why I don't bring the girls over when my stepfather is there, because he's molested before and I get a bad feeling around him.

theiving - I have been depressed/overweight for some time now, and I don't have the energy to do nearly as much with DD5 as I did when DD10 was 5. So yes, I feel like I've stolen love from both kids by making choices that leave me with less energy. At work, too, I felt not as smart as the other engineers, yet I made a good salary, and that felt like theiving, too.

"Could the thievery also be felt from the undeserving belief you have...the remnants of earning love...that some people don't deserve to be...if they are being loved, anyway, it's like stealing what shouldn't be theirs?"

Wow, I've never thought of it that way, H accuses me of that, putting effort into people who "don't deserve it." And I definitely have felt that way around some FOO members, why do I have to pretend that we are a happy family, that some people deserve a hug hello and goodbye?

abusive/controlling – I asked again, and it was really close to Harley's definition, that we abuse to get our way.

scheming/sneaky/dishonest – they're in me for when I don't feel good enough to deserve something, I paint a distortion so I can feel deserving enough. Thanks again for reminding me that love isn't earned though, I don't need to act happy when I'm despondent to earn love, it's either there or it's not.

Neglectful/nit-picky/blaming – "What if you hated seeing it in others because it hurt so much in yourself? Neglecting, stridently judging and finding fault? What if that was self signalling you...stop! Please!"
Awesome, I can use it, as a signal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"what if the crutch here is because you are so very lovable, you draw love to you, and it's your crucial crutch so you don't have to love and accept yourself? I felt it powerfully while writing this...my deep urge for you to stop doing all these things to your self...your precious, obviously wonderful self."
Thanks, I really can see this. I have given of myself in many ways, and betrayed myself in many ways, too. Not good, or bad, just is, I remember that is another of my favorites you'e shared. Absolutely, I'm a people person, and I have a great group of friends, full of villagers, human, as they are, I love to be around them anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I found I love to be around myself, too!

All those what ifs and would you considers were sincere...as you embrace your villagers (have to practice), you find anything isn't as you thought, would you share it here? Would you say, LA? That wasn't what it was...it was THIS!

Also, you got me thinking (as you are wont to do)...if these villagers are born (literally) of our fear, what villagers are born of our love?

Hmmm...

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <--had a moment when I was intensely grateful for all that I am...and it really annoyed me.

ROFLMAO

Would insecurity be a wonderful little villager, along with self-doubt?

I was just wondering. Thanks!

I love that question, villagers born from love!

This one was quicker, I listed the people I feel happy about when I think of them, and the people I look forward to seeing or talking to. Mostly the same folks from my last list, LOL!

There aren't as many repeats, as I just was going for the main things I love about them, not all the things I appreciate.

joy
song
laughter
acceptance (2)
forgiveness
knowlege/insight
gratitude
questioning
love (2)
connedtedness
resourcefulness
admiration
amazement
fun

I was thinking, the ENs would probably all fall in here, too, born of love

EO -- I think you nailed it...the ENs are the villagers created in us for loving connection...just as the others were created from fear for protection.

Of course it would rhyme, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Would song be sharing spirit? Like giving voice to our truth, a mutuality? An expression of freedom to do so?

Laughter? That has the instant connection in it...why I love doing standup...because I think it has the other villagers in it (from my perception) of acceptance, fun, admiration and appreciation; knowledge, intimacy...in a tiny package.

Forgiveness...as acceptance...accepting the person, not the action...that critical split so difficult to discern a difference...and in that acceptance, a reconnection...and new knowledge/insight within it...

Knowledge and insight as intimacy...we have to accept knowledge, decide if it is knowledge and not assumption.

Gratitude...big one there...and I'm beginning to think the power of it really is in synchronizing us into the present...a present state of mind...might be off there...what do you think? Accepting anything...ourselves, others, our humanness...the present...contains acceptance.

Questioning? Would that be attention? Interest in others expresses care? To connect through knowledge, in the present...that phrase we've become deaf to..."How are you?" Is that what you're mean?

Resourcefulness...like love through acts of service, creative meeting of ENs? Another act to connect...through expression?

Admiration...that celebrating what we see in others and in ourselves...I believe contains acceptance of the person as well as acknowledgment of the expression in their words, acts, etc...maybe it goes directly to intent? I see your intent...nearly your essence?

Amazement to me comes from our own expectations...we like those to be low at times to trick ourselves into getting a rush from feeling undeserving, less than...and then someone else telling us in their actions or words we are not...that we are cherished...I wonder if this villager is a signal to see what we're doing under our own radar...and to expand our narrowest beliefs...of what humans can do...because they will do more than we thought possible...a key to hope?

Fun...like you, BTE, HTBH, Rin and AmI...and all the other posters here on MB, too...joy in motion...

Great list, EO...gave me lots to think about!

Rin,

Insecurity...to me it came from my belief I was less than others...which was formed from a mixed up message that people who are modest are safe from ridicule and harm...from pride goeth before a fall...so eschewing pride was safe...self-bashing and punishment permitted...to stay modest...and realizing these beliefs weren't valid, that there was natural shame (modesty of self) and false modesty, helped this villager to be used as a signal and not as an intent. Like moving him over.

Natural shame is not living up to our own expectations...what we truly desire for ourselves, not as a part of earning our own love or that of others...embracing our human limits...only what we control...insecurity can feel like shame, has a shame base...determining the real from the false isn't easy...I began the separation by determining who made all of us, separate and equal...so insecurity has no place...it cannot be real...one being defective compared to another...right?

Would that hit your self-doubt? Or are you talking about doubting our choices? Is self-doubt our hall monitor, our caution sign...you might screw this up! Wouldn't that go against knowing you are whole, made marvelously, and you only control yourself?

Great questions...ideas...could that self-doubt/insecurity be rooted in the belief we make others and they make us, so whatever we experience is not of us, but them, and vice versa?

LA

LA,

Okay...deep breath here goes.

dishonest/sneaky
disloyal/liar/cheater/betrayer
disconnected (lazy/workaholic) withdrawn
selfish
judgemental/sanctimonious/self-righteous/hypocrite
wishy-washy/insincere
tantrum thrower/immature
shallow/superficial/pretentious
witholder/abandoner
resentful/grudge holder
stubborn

When I made my list there are really only a couple people on my list that I don't actually like or love at some level. Is this what Bradshaw means by enmeshment? I know I am shame based. I know it is multigenerational. I am working to break the cycle now with me. I own these villagers...every single one of them in within me.

I will address all of these villagers one at a time and in no particular order if that is okay with you.

I want to address lazy first. I connect lazy to workaholic. For me they are born out of the same need...the need to disconnect from self. If I work work work...or I do some form of lazy activity (watch TV etc.) I am doing it for the same reason. It took me awhile to connect these two things since they seem like polar opposites but for me they are exactly the same thing. Others may perceive them to be totally different but I choose to see how they are both coping mechanism for me to unplug...disconnect emotionally from self...hide.

Why do I need this villager? To protect myself from shame. Do you think that it is possible that we could have been shamed even in utero...known on some innate level that we were not wanted or the cause of shame to our mothers? Is it possible that the shame was passed on even before the cord was cut that separated us? How deep would that shame go?

Think about the perception of shame when we learned the truth of our pasts. My biological mother was 15 and sent away to live in a home for wayward pregnant teens far away from the small town she lived in. She was shamed for getting pregnant. This was scandalous in her day...in a small town to her upstanding parents.

My mom(adoptive) was also raised in a shame based family. She was molested as a young child. My grandmother found out about this and shamed my mom for this. My mom lived with this shame her whole life. Her mother was so shame based herself that she could not do any better for my mom than she did.

So there is multigenerational shame for both my mothers. They are both dead. My inner child is throwing a tantrum for them both...get back here and do this shame work with me. Is this very mature...no. Is it honest...yep.

I know very little of my biological father. My dad also comes from a shame based family. I doubt that he will admit this to himself let alone me. Is this a DJ to my dad? I love my dad. I respect my dad. My stepmom (they have been married about 30 years) also comes from a shame based family. She will probably deny this as well. However there are 6 kids between them (her 4 my dad's 2 none together except after this many years we are all really "together" wouldn't you say?) and all of us seem shame based to me.

I am going to have to deal with the shame based FOO. I love them so much and I am not sure how to go about the disentanglement process. Is this the enmeshment? The love and the shame all tangled up together so tightly bond that is hard to separate the love from the hurt?

My religion growing up was shamed based too. I am not bashing the religion itself just the effect it had on me. I believed that I had to "earn" my salvation through works not grace...that the cross was not enough. I ran away from God for a very very long time. I was finally so broken that I just surrendered to God and said I can no longer take another breath without your help. He has provided a shame free love. Without Him I would have either died or kept running...I could not stop. I could not quiet myself...I could not listen.

This goes back to the lazy/workaholic. I have done whatever I could for as long as I could to keep my authentic self at bay. I was literally self destructing. The mask is off... I am not hiding anymore. I am excited and terrified in the same breath. I feel like now is the time to reclaim all of my villagers and heal myself. No one can do this for us. There is someone who is always there for us if we choose to accept the help. I know who's in my corner and for that I am graced.

Okay LA...have at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

"It took me awhile to connect these two things since they seem like polar opposites but for me they are exactly the same thing."

Wow...that is a great insight...you went under the surface a bit, didn't you? How about a judgment in there? "Workaholic" good..."Lazy" bad...yet you see how these villagers came from your fear of shame and distracted you from shame...both of them.

In your list, do you see a lot of extremes? The all or nothing perception and perspective is present and I used it as a signal (still do) to see there is where I'm closest to my inner shame, my inner child. As adults, life isn't really lived in extremes...reality is more around the middle, the 90 degrees between 0 and 180, I have found.

And yes, HTSTBU...(Healing the Shame that Binds Us) I believe hit me especially close to my soul because of the adoption...as I knew shame before I knew love. I'm with you on that. I'm now doing his "Family Secrets" book where you map out family history, the three generations (as you did in your post) to different levels...and I felt wonderfully accepted because it has nothing to do with genetics...I wouldn't do any genealogy stuff because I wasn't really a part of them, was I? Well, we are...we deeply are. Another way to welcome ourselves home to reality.

Guess I'm asking, if in considering how the shame-based perspective was handed down, generation to generation, if you felt that inclusion and how it felt to you? And the relief that this wasn't, as I had once imagined, more punishment, being adopted into this family, for my birth? Unlucky, bad roll of the dice...instead of understanding everyone, naturally born to those families, experienced what I experienced...which is an inclusion I was craving.

You broke out many villagers for clarity...would you like to regroup them a bit when you ask why they are in you?

Dishonest/sneaky/disloyal/liar/cheater/betrayer?

I don't know if you want to include "disconnected (lazy/workaholic) withdrawn" in that...we cannot truly disconnect or withdraw from self, can we? Only an illusion, slight of emotional hand...which takes a level of self-deception, doesn't it?

selfish

Would combining these aid you?
judgemental/sanctimonious/self-righteous/hypocrite/shallow/superficial/pretentious

You can ask the question individually of each trait and write down the answers...if you see them become very much the same, I think that would indicate these are the same villager manifesting its power in what looks to be different ways, but only because it senses it is all one reason.

wishy-washy/insincere
tantrum thrower/immature

I would challenge you on immature...may be a word you heard repeatedly (I did) to signify something it really doesn't represent. A fruit which is not ripe, is immature. Yet the fruit, when mature, contains seeds inside for its future reproduction...in essence, it contains where it came from and they are inherent, a part of what it is and will be. I saw it as a stage, a level achieved, for humans, until I decided that my inner child was as necessary for my past as it is for my present and future. Not to be changed, grown up or discarded. Like a fruit, this immaturity, in its 90 degrees, had hidden blessings within my shame.

witholder/abandoner
resentful/grudge holder
stubborn

Fantastic list, JJ...I can see one on here that I had not considered myself...and like Prego, it's in me!! And others, in the way you labeled them, linked them, for me to consider again.

Thank you for doing this exercise...I look forward to seeing what these villagers have to tell you.

LA

Oh, you just gave me an idea...so I'm posting it here.

Reworking the language of shame...to yank it from ourselves, our habitual perception...I think is important. An extension of getting both hands on reality...

Adoptees:

We came into this world with shoulds in our pores...yet...

Not how we should be, or it should be...

We were handed off...and we are not handoffs.

We were displaced...we did not lose our place.

We were second best in our families...we are equal in different packaging.

We are children of souls.

We exist from brave choices and were reared in them.

We make brave choices.

We are their legacy as much as we are own.

There are no shoulds...when we tread that path, we walk away from reality.

We are.




I think this goes to the villagers exercise, too...

We lie and are not liars...we choose to be truthful.

We cheated and are not cheaters.

We were adopted into families...we do not remain adoptees.

Is is a part of us, not our whole.

LA

LA,

As usual you are spot on.



Yes there is judgement there and a tendency to see things as black and white, good and bad, right and wrong. Where is my gray area? My house in messy right now...it has been messier than usual for several months. Used to be very very tidy. Guess what I learned...better to have a cleaner spirit than a cleaner house. The house is just is cluttered and messy because my life is cluttered and messy right now. I have actually been able to accept this better then I might have thought I could. After all it is just a messy house. I can choose to say...My house is messy right now. My house isn't always messy. I see the difference.

False self says you must keep a perfectly clean house all the time because you must earn love. Authentic self is learning that you don't earn love. This is a huge break through for me.

When I did the villager exercise list it was really hard for me to find people I dislike.My name list included only one or 2 people I don't really like the rest were all my loved ones.

When I became frustrated I tried a different approach to get to the same thing. I started listing the traits rather than the people that I associate them with. I had about 100 traits in about 15 minutes. Then I started lumping the ones I thought were repeats together and then on the opposite side of the page I listed what I thought was the opposite of that trait. So you see how spot on you are. Then I ranked them although I don't know if the ranking is accurate. Maybe this is good news...that I don't dislike certain of my villagers more than others. They are in me...all of them.

So yes to your question about extremes and the labeling. Maybe one of my villagers is extremist which I would tie into perfectionist which makes sense to me since many shame based people believe that they have to earn love.


Yes, I choose to accept that that is why it hits so close to home. I think I am going to need to do some of the regression exercises either with IC or with a tape recorder. The one where you go down the flight of stairs on the 7 count and meet with your inner child. I did this once about 11 years ago in IC. I didn't stick with IC but I think that the therapist was on the right track because this is basically what she did. We only did it once but maybe I needed to do it more than once or maybe I needed to go back further...say all the way back to the beginning of the deepest shame. Then I bring her back with me for good so she really knows she will never be abandoned again...she will always have me to care for her...to love her.

Bradshaw mentions "Family Secrets" in HTSTBY and I would like to read that one too. I wonder if I can do one on my mom's side because my mom, her only sibling a brother, and both her parents and grandparents are dead. I know some of the history and might be able to at least piece a skeleton together on her side. How are you going to do yours? Will you ask the FOO questions? Just wondering out loud.


Yes...this is so true. Another way of looking at it. You got the same thing you would have gotten if you had been born into the family...no exclusion there. A birthright handed down to you that includes you as a card carrying member of the FOO. Good point LA.

Speaking of labeling good/bad what if I rethought the labels different=bad same=good. Not good or bad...different, unique, special...all of us.

Yes, these can all be grouped together. I see what you are saying. Disconnecting is something we do to hide from authentic self. Not a villager in and of itself but a means to try to escape/hide from self. Slight of hand...hmmmm never thought of it that way but okay yes. Lying to self...self deception so yes it fits in.

Dishonest/sneaky/disloyal/liar/cheater/betrayer?
So now why are they in me?

Answer is simple. Feelings attached to it are not. Why...to protect self from getting hurt. As I read Bradshaw I underline and write notes to myself in the margins as I go. I don't use a highlighter to underline...old school a pencil. A pencil is useful as you can write notes where you are in the book itself rather for me then to write them separately (well not all notes...I have a journal for the work but notes on my thoughts as I am reading...questions to self...revelations etc.)

When I got to the part about enmeshment wow!! I had already included one villager on my list that speaks to this. I have noticed a trend in my life...even before the book. The trend is to leave before you get left. Bradshaw hits on this and I so have done this. Rather than stay and see what happens fear takes over me and in a means of self preservation. Run move away never let anyone that close...anyone who gets that close will leave. Leave before you lose control. Stay in control. Abandon ship. What is the real fear here? That let in too deep they will see me. I will be exposed as the fraud that I am. This is the negative self dialogue for years. What is it way down deep...I am not worthy of love. If I was people wouldn't leave me. How can I prevent this...leave first.

Can I trace some of this back..to actual events? Yes...birth mother left me check, foster care left me check, FOO's divorce check, suicide of boyfriend at 17 checkmate. Death as a checkmate. Mom's death...another checkmate. In chess isn't checkmate when the other person wins? Checking out first...before someone checks out on you. Does this really work...nope it is just a coping strategy just like staying ultra busy or not quieting self.

Like what Bradshaw says, "each time we repeat the fantasy bond over and over. Once we are fantasy bonded we have only one relationship over and over again. The only way out of this cycle is through the original pain and Inner Child Work and grief work. Otherwise we will repeat and try to do they grief work. We will choose the same kind of person over and over in order to have another chance at resolution."

I think there is another therapist/self help writer Harville Hendrix who might be worth investigating too at some point. I haven't read his stuff just heard him speak on Oprah awhile ago and somewhere in my mind I have chunked something that he said in with something Bradshaw said. Something about the people we choose and how we choose them to help ourselves heal.

Okay back on task.
selfish...okay this is hard to admit...How am I selfish? I am not really selfish about stuff ie material possessions a little maybe but more I am selfish with behaviors. I don't listen sometimes. I don't give people my full attention. I am checked out. Sometimes it comes in the form of interrupting others when they are talking. Why? I think I at some point started to believe that if I wasn't right then I wouldn't be heard. If I wasn't heard then I wouldn't have a voice which would mean that I wasn't important. So maybe it was a way to make myself feel important. See how this also connects to the labeling...right=good=worthy=love.

I have also been selfish with my time, my emotions(withholding would fit in here too) my heart. What does that say about me...do I think others also have to earn my love. Would this be a boundary I have set...maybe not a healthy one but one nonetheless? It seems it would because I am also selfish to myself...withholding to myself. What have I withheld from myself? A lot of things. Won't let other people do things for me. Withholding help.Why? If you believe you have to earn love then if you allow others to do things for you then you will not be earning your keep so to speak. But this works against me too...in terms of what I expect of others.

There are other things I have withheld from others and myself. Have I withheld what I need from others so then I can be upset with them for not reading my mind? Seems like maybe kinda YES. And funny how that links in the resentful and grudge holder villagers. Why are they here...why do I need them?

I need them to give myself permission to be angry. Anger is scary to me. Rage is terrifying in others yet I know I feel it sometimes but shove it down hard when it comes up. I think I am afraid of that anger inside me. It has surfaced before and I have had a full blown grown up temper tantrum or two. I don't like how I felt during a tantrum. I don't like to feel out of control and I guess that is how I feel when I am angry. There is more here with the anger...the fear of it and the permission to feel it. I am not there yet...What is a healthy way to express anger or upset feelings without shaming or harming others with words.

I have a sense that it is tied to the same thing that sadness and crying are tied to for me. Fear of showing weakness. I have been shamed for crying both as a child and an adult. How many of us heard this dialogue growing up..."Quit that crying or I will really give you something to cry about." or some version of that. I do not like this script and it is time to rewrite this dialogue. This past summer I gave myself permission to cry again over something other than the death of my mom. See the dishonesty here. I knew I would not be shamed for crying about my mom so on the few occasions when I really couldn't hold it back anymore then I would receive false comfort because although the comforting was soothing it was not authentic because when it wasn't about my mom then it was about something else I felt I needed to keep hidden...shamed. When the dialogue went something like this..."I can't talk to you when you are like that." angry voice saying that to me. Now I see that that voice was also acting in shame. This is how the shame spiral sequence starts. Shame based people tend to bind themselves to other shame based people. By knowing our own villagers and if we are fortunate enough to be able to do the villagers exercise with our partner then we expose and are exposed to each others villagers and we can come to a new place of welcoming our own and our partners villagers home. For me God plays a huge role in the safety of exposing myself. The irony is He has always known. I'm the one who didn't know how deep the shame went and how hard I have worked to keep myself hidden. My faith in Him gives me a peace I have not known before and in the safety of that peace there is the ability to expose.

These are really all the same thing in one way or another a cover up. Another slight of hand to deflect the light off of the authentic self. They are the mask to the world that I am okay. In a way they all seem like a form of vanity when I look at them now. And why would I need vanity? Because if I look the part on the outside then no one will notice all the things that are flawed on the inside. I have honed this skill over the years. It really is about an illusion created to fool the world so they won't notice that inside I am really broken. Wow it is really freeing to say world I am not perfect...to say it out loud to stop hiding. Who knew the very thing I feared the most would be the thing that ultimately makes me feel better...honesty, transparency, exposure.

As for immature I think you are spot on. If we are so mature where is the room to grow? When do we stop growing? What if the answer is we don't if we stay open to the process of refinement. A master carpenter hones his craft over and over again. Like the potter and the wheel.



Pretty sure I know which one it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> But tell me anyway because I choose not to make assumptions anymore as they are DJ's to self and to others.

After doing this I see more and more how many are really the same thing once removed like a cousin...born and raised in us to mostly protect us from fear and exposure.

LA if I recommended a CD(music) to you would you consider getting it? I would send it to you friend but I'm not sure postman can deliver package to Loving Anway, Anywhere on the Planet, zip code unknown so I can only recommend it LOL.
Here's the link
CD

To your courage that got this thread started.

It was resentment...

I didn't put it down as a villager...one that was so large couldn't be a villager...had to be the whole village! I am kind of chuckling right now because I'm talking to it now and it's puffed up that it got missed...

I did so much to remove, eliminate and not allow resentment, it felt attacked unfairfly, given all my others. Wow. No wonder I've kept wrestling this one. "How else would you feel powerful? How else would you ever feel worth it?" it says...so I'm thanking it and smiling...because you posted, God's messenger, to me.

Thank you.

And another feeling...tearfully released...all of these villagers come from fear and from love...we have been loved all along by them, haven't we? They loved and wanted to protect authentic self long before we knew we had one. They loved self behind our backs, cared for and nutured self, even as we abandoned.

Wow.

The black/white perspective has a lot of power and not a lot of room for fear or reality. Yet, I think when I used to see gray all the time, no black/white, I was just as lost as only seeing the extremes...extremely gray? Balance in the middle...at that 90 degrees; the power of knowing what we do not know and being okay with not knowing yet.

To stop the 0 and 180 degree thinking, I accepted that whenever I identified something in me at 0 degrees, I automatically went 180 to wipe it out. My MC said, "180 from 0 is still sick." (Notice, not bad...healthy, toxic, ill) Now, this way my way of seeing my 0 degree thinking from a great distance...so I could gauge where 90 degrees was...as if I couldn't even see it from 0 degrees...like I'm standing at a corner of a room, 0 is where I'm standing, 180 is around the corner...and of course, 90 degrees is the corner...so I would continually walk all the way around and look back.

My MC laughed so hard when we physically got up to do this...because he said..."Turn your body." See how bright I am? LOL Such a smaller journey...I begin facing forward at 0 degrees and then turn 90 degrees....ROFL...I get a kick out of myself...I had a lot more exercise, I told him, moving myself all over the place.

I wanted to share that with you as you continue on your journey...these changes, incorporating, owning and freeing ourselves are done within our own space. You don't have to run up and down a protractor like I did, to find the angles.

TruBluz and her husband did the Harville Hendrix program...Imago...and I found it on Al Turtle's website, too. What you said about bonding to a fantasy partner, I would imagine comes right from that therapy...that we are locked into finding the same person again and again...and Imago helps you work it out because it's your FOO. That's my understanding. Which makes great sense to me...our first relationship (mother or father or caretaker) had deep impact. We can't work out this stuff not in a relationship, could we?

And you solved why I got so firmly that saving your marriage is the healthiest thing you can do, because walking away, over and over again, well...you'll just recreate until you get where you were going in the first place...and I would imagine, the string of relationship corpses in your wake would affect you once you did the work.

I loved how you got that free ourselves wasn't perfecting at all...that loving our villagers, embracing them as part of us, would be an act of love, honesty, acceptance and indeed, lessen our fear of intimacy and abandonment. What if part of the withholding was not wanting anyone to see into true self because you hadn't? Like a closet you haven't opened in years and someone wants a tour and tries to open it?

Something in that resonated with me...it's dark and scary in there. I have forgotten what it looks like, let alone, to show it.

The fear of anger (ours and others')...could it be anger shames...shame fears anger? I see this so much on the boards here...we fear angering our spouses so much that their anger controls us...and then we rebel against feeling controlled. Those spirals...wow.

I'm still working on facing my fear of anger...my DH got really angry at what someone else did when we were driving one day...I had squiggles in my chest...and immediately fabricated stories for the other driver to soothe what wasn't mine to soothe...because it works...not for what I thought...my marvelous imagination...but because my DH said he heard fear in my voice which changed his anger. Wow.

I knew I was being disrespectful in my choice to soothe (whether it was or not is irrelevant, eh?)...and I was reinforcing to DH that anger isn't okay...has to be thrown out as soon as possible...which isn't helpful, respectful or true, is it?

Look upon your villagers and ask...how many of you came from someone else's anger?

From my own?

Do you think that God helps through our own emotions? I ask because these villagers are our own creations, and we are his...he knew our shame-base, though he didn't create it...many religions reinforce this shame, and Christianity can be seen as shame-based to me. I believe as we do the shame work, to get from toxic to authentic, we live more as Jesus asked us to, without a drop of earning anything...and the Holy Spirit thrives in us, as our shame becomes reasonable, a small signal we can feel at first vibration, instead of a holocaust of shame at any tiny trigger. More room for who we really are, closer to the wholeness of original creation...which is why I love Bradshaw's Christian-based therapies and perspective.

Think we can tie our villagers to Love Busters?

Thank you for acknowledging my courage, hence, my trepidation, in starting this thread. There was a poster, Sjaj, who said, "How can you call someone detestable, despicable?" or something like that...from a ML post about what A's were, not humans, I think. Reminded me immediately of the exercise, the way this FWW triggered to those words...so I made it her thread...and others came, instead.

Like prayers, I believe...I wanted to share and be shared with...scary, tough exercise...had no thought to what this thread would look like or where it would go...only that Sjaj had a lot of villagers, was feeling attacked and unloved, and attacking back...which was all me that I saw, in her...

I think there is a flipside to your leaving before you're left, JJ...that when you stay, you're doubly brave...powerfully courageous...and each minute counts more. What do you think?

Tell me more of how you now see others, too, 'k?

Thank you for staying on this thread.

LA

LA,

Well...I was wrong so I am glad that I chose not to assume. Ah...resentment. When I think of resentment I challenge myself to look at why it is in me. Why did I need it and how have I used it. Resentment is a wall we build around ourselves to protect us. Just because we have a hard time expressing anger doesn't mean we don't feel it. It is there...but when we are afraid to show it let alone believe we deserve to actually feel it...it manifests at least to me as resentment. It also is a huge DJ to self and others to shove it down again and again. How is anyone besides God able to read our minds? Answer they aren't. I know that just because I shoved anger down however that my body language did not. Just because I didn't say the words that were there when I felt angry didn't mean that they weren't being expressed.

On the show One Week to Save Your Marriage, there was an episode where the H was a rager. The W was a retreater. She shut down when her H would get loud and yell. The more she checked out and tuned him out the louder he became. The therapist had them watch a tape of one of their arguments and then said something I found profound. She said it would seem that the H is the one with power here. She purported that in fact the W had just as much power in her withholding as the H did in his raging. She suggested that perhaps he was yelling louder because he felt like he wasn't being heard. It is easy to look at the rager and cast blame. Raging like that is frightening to most and although it is also a sick way to communicate...what the W was doing was pretty powerful too.

In my life one of my biggest fears is to be left. Thus the pattern of leaving before being left. You are correct it takes a whole lot more courage to stay. One trigger of extreme fear in my M was when my H would say..."Well fine then maybe we should just get a D." I would feel extremely afraid whenever he would say this and feel resentful towards him for saying it since I have vocalized to him that in fact this is a deep seated fear. Through many recent discussions something came out that I missed along the way. H confessed that his biggest fear is that I will leave him. When he has said the D word in the past...it was his fear speaking. He was saying in the reverse outloud what he himself was afraid of. It never once occurred to me that he was afraid that I might leave him. This I believed was only my fear. Interesting what happens when you gain the insight that your partner has this same strong fear. The fact that he has threatened to leave but has not left reinforces his courage. Reinforces that even though he is afraid too that he will stay...he will not leave. The discussion about this fear in both of us have brought a new level of trust and understanding.

My H shared a childhood experience with me. He has shared this story more than once but I see it differently after reading Bradshaw.

Here is the imprint memory. H's father was a rager. (H is also a rager... shame based legacy passed down)
When my H was a child...maybe 8 or 9 his folks got into an argument and his dad began raging. His mom went out to the garage and got into her car. She said she would not tolerate this rage toward her or the kids anymore. She got into the car (without the kids) and left. They had all followed her out to the garage and my H watched as his mom backed out of the driveway and left. She came back about 5 minutes later sobbing and saying she could never leave her family and to her credit she never did this again. However this childhood memory imprint had a very powerful message to my H. He equated rage with being left. Now when I think of him and past rages I can clearly identify that there is a deep fear of being left as a consequence of expressing rage. He has always been quick to go from 0-100 in about thirty seconds in terms of anger and even quicker to apologize for it soon after. I see how I built resentment about his anger. I was angry too but because I fear rage I internalized my anger and withdrew and withheld. Even after he would apologize I would still grudge hold here. I see know we have other options....ways to rewrite the code...the script. Because our kids have witnessed this behavior it is important that we do rewrite this script so they see a new script...another way. By uniting our villagers we have the choice and the chance to build a bridge for ourselves and for our kids about how to express anger. It is pretty powerful stuff.



This made me chuckle...thinking about physically getting up to do this exercise and then it really is exercise. LOL. But I think there is a lot to be said for the physical action of doing something.

Thank you for sharing that you "tearfully release". I have found crying to be very cathartic and it seems I always feel cleansed in a sense afterwards. Withholding crying from self is being selfish...not giving good self care.

Exactly...it is like being asked to take a test you aren't prepared for. When you know what will be on a test...have prepared for it... although you still may feel some sense of anxiety at least you have a general sense of what is going to be on the test.

You mentioned that you did the villager exercise with your DH. Do you think that doing this allowed each of your villagers to accept and understand... be more willing to be open to each other?

The key is that you recognized what happened and are seeing that anger isn't an enemy villager. It is also there to protect us...and not always in the way we think. Anger...mad feelings are just as legitimate and crying or sad feelings wouldn't it seem? In the same vein that I haven't allowed myself permission to cry same goes for anger. Holding it back...stuffing it down. What are the end results of constantly denying feelings that are really there? Could it be resentment? Could it become overwhelming to keep it down so often that at some point we reach a breaking point and a temper tantrum strikes...leading us back to toxic shame. I am so immature...look at how I handled that. I should be "better" than that. Look at the script here...were we told this as children when we acted out or had a tantrum? Here's the script..."You are being such a baby...grow up. You should know better then to act like that. Go to your room if you are going to behave like that...or worse...I'll really give you something to cry about." The inner child has been so shamed for acting this way it learned to push those feelings down and hide emotions. So when the adult child throws the tantrum the shame spiral starts again. Could this also fall under resentment? Ask yourself who do you feel resentful toward when you feel angry? Who comes up? What's the script?

Exactly...and also not being allowed to express yours. Anger itself isn't the issue really anyway. Are we not all God's children. Even in the Bible God got angry when he had just cause. He is perfect and if He got so angry/disappointed that he wiped out the world with the flood then I think He doesn't expect us never to be angry. Jesus got angry too and he was sinless. He got angry when people tried to fill Him in on God's laws...like He didn't know what they really meant. So what if anger is not always negative? What if we have anger as a signal?

I don't know many parents who don't get angry when someone harms their child. Is anger okay then? What if there is just like toxic and healthy shame...toxic and healthy anger? What happens when we unite our villagers? Can we find a healthy respect for all of them? I am not saying we should just explode but if we never release anger will it turn to bitterness and resentment? If we don't release it somehow will it implode on us? I don't really know I am just thinking outloud?

Absolutely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

True...and look at what has happened in some of their lives...pretty powerful stuff I would have to say. What a blessing this thread is...beautiful to watch unfold...so much courage and so much truth in those who have shared and gone so deep.

Might have stated this above already but if not yes I do think it is standing in the face of fear and choosing to stay anyway. It is knowing that if you don't do this work...the work that has been waiting and hoping each time you ran that this would be the time...that this IS the time. When I let go and reached out...the hand that was waiting for me all along took hold of mine and gave me the courage to stay.

Like you said LA...God doesn't make junk.

to uniting...

JJ,

I was rereading your post...I haven't responded only because I couldn't find a response...none necessary. You see so much in yourself now and you're teaching me.

I found a question though...when in conflict, your FWH says fine, we'll just get a divorce...our mutual fear of abandonment soars...yet you both have divorced, have experienced that...I knew half of my fear choking me was the unknown...yours is known. Does that make it different at all?

You know the pain of divorce...all that goes into it, all the surprises and the not surprises...does that change your reaction in anyway?

Which led me to ponder the flip side of that statement...because when my DH and me when through that...reaching for the nuke head instead of the flyswatter to communicate...I wasn't hearing, "Stop this! I'm feeling attacked, enmeshed. I'm a separate human being in this marriage and I am here, loving you, all that I am, by choice."

Which would be a whoa side to the same statement, huh? "I haven't divorced you."

Just hmmming to myself.

Another thought from your post was that embracing all we are, then we are acting in reality...saying "I don't want that" to fantasy.

What do you think?

I just caught your question about doing the exercise with WH (at the time)...I know that his willingness to do it with me was a huge LB deposit. I remember his being "Hypocrite, Controlling, Weak" I don't remember the rest now. I was so blown away with what I was discovering, I didn't listen. LOL. I know I was still tuned to his body language...he was angry doing it...resistant and uncomfortable (which is big for him)...he squirmed in his chair and made faces...the ones I used to take as discounting, bored and superior. Wow...I was a DJ machine!!! ROFL

Leads me to wonder if he doesn't do that anymore, therefore, I don't DJ...or by not DJing, I'm not seeing it.

I don't care, really. I LOVE our life. ROFL

I think that's a great question to ask him tonight though...what are his villagers?

What this exercise did do was for me to see clearly, unequivocably, that his villagers weren't about me...and never were. Nor he, mine. Now I remember we shared some and we noticed the ones we shared.

Another thought from what you posted about us as children and tantrums. What if my child did the tantrum after trying to catch my attention in different ways...sent a lot of signals which didn't get the response she wanted...hence, the tantrum...like you described with pushing down emotions, stuffing information, until we get our attention in a dire way? Also, I think of seeing children in the grocery store reaching for something and being told no as an automatic aside...and them immediately falling to the floor in a tantrum...like they assumed there was no other way to try to have their wants acknowledged before declined...wouldn't that be the earliest DJ to self and caretaker of self? Wow. This may really be where my DJs started...my own determination of what others would do and me railing against those choices I could not control.

What are the end results of years of denying our emotions? Makes them really hard to know (since we haven't practiced "knowing" them), individualize, be aware of and be able to glean the information they are bringing from invalidating them, I would imagine. Wow...hard to feel they are valid when we've practiced the belief they aren't, huh? Wouldn't be able to hear others validate our own feelings, either, I would imagine.

More hmmms...as all your posts tend to do...spark my brain and heart...like I'm not alone in this scary journey...I get to hold your hand through your own truth, which gives me a light to look with and the courage to not be judged.

What a blessing you are, I believe, being here on MB, JJ.

You are a blessing to my life.

And if we did this, stuffed our stuff, then resentment I created in myself, all seen as if others were doing it, would also be towards me, wouldn't it? A lot of pain and anguish from my own choice to resentment...because it would be self-image resenting self...if you weren't better, I wouldn't have to do all this work, protect so hard, stuff so much...hmmm. What do you think?

Resentment for me was based in fairness, mired in earning and punishing for love...manipulation as raw as car wreck.

"Exactly...and also not being allowed to express yours."

Because you linked going back to experiencing life as a child, as our adult selves (in reality), then would it be that we didn't give ourselves permission to express ourselves, so we experience feeling controlled, inadequate or superior, trapped?

From our own lack of permitting ourselves to be who we really are?

Oh...that reflection thing again...did you read Slick50's thread? SlimJim posted about narcisscism and for the first time, I really got that the story it comes from wasn't a man in love with himself, but his reflection of self...which is what I was doing...striving to love self as a reflection from others...everyone. Really got me going, reading that...as to get me to better understand that as I continued on that path, I got to the narciscistic level of not feeling others' pain (my DH) when I chose my A...because I was justified in doing whatever it took to maintain my reflection...because he was no longer reflecting me the way I wanted...so the "fog" really has this in it...maybe I understand that inside, why I push to see ourselves separate and equal...break the enmeshment of mirrors, huh?

I shared this with DH the other night...and I didn't even flinch with realizing how I was living NPD myself...until I decided not to...reached for truth, instead. I didn't kick myself, either...because I'm not that person, and never was...my real self was marvelous...worthy, valuable and lovable as is...and not flinching was worth noting, here to you, that I no longer have to punish myself, be filled with regret and act in my remorse, because I know I'm not that self-image now. Wow. (I've spent two years acting on my remorse, owning and acknowledging...a pattern of amends...and this time, I felt no need for it...those behaviors and choices were amended...they stay amended...the past is the past...and I realize that's why I don't trust psychologies labels...for their conclusions. They seem to have "incurable" in their theories, and I'm living proof we cure ourselves. It takes what it takes...and we do wake up...we all have that power and choice...reinforces for me there are no problem people...only people with problems.

Glad I shared that with you, JJ. Thanks for being here.

LA

LA,

*** Warning - threadjack ahead ***

Can you check out my thread? I am getting a lot of great feedback, but I feel like I am missing something. Hoping you can help me nail it.

*** End of threadjack ***

Okay, anyone else want to do this with me?

Hi LA,

uhmmmm.....just started reading your thread....this is from page 2....don't suppose there is some way of working it out?
....because I would certainly like 'to do with you'!

Well....I am going to give the exercise a shot anyway...

here's my list, in the order they came to mind, without naming names:

violent, self-righteous, abusive, victim
authoritative, mean, judgemental, unloving
cruel, abusive, victim
judgemental, unaffectionate
unfaithful, insensitive
nagging, arrogant
dishonest, unfaithful, insensitive, cruel, egotistical
manipulative
spineless
unfaithful
unfaithful, insensitive, egotistical
spineless, sending mixed messages
spineless, sending mixed messages
cold, insensitive
manipulative, buying 'off' with money
victim, irresponsible

I felt surprised because many on the list also have at the same time qualities that I admire....and this tells me that I try to focus on the qualities while fully being aware of their 'imperfections' according to me.........the level of trust with each person on the list is proportional to how I feel about them.... meaning....would not 'confide' with someone I consider 'untrustworthy' but it would not stop me from communicating with them..... and I guess accept to differ on many issues!

wasssshhhh......I didn't see that coming!

.....Oh God....if what I wrote is a part of me.....I don't think I would like myself very much!

....so.....I guess that would be how it works.....can recognize in others only what I already know/ can experience in myself..... a reflection of me?

...sounds like these are the 'parts' of me that I DON'T want to see, don't want to accept....

Well....I am put my trust in you, LA... and will follow you only because you are YOU!

....something in me may somehow regret having started the process.... but....if there is an 'ugly' me that I need to accept.... let's move on!