violent
self-righteous, arrogant
abusive (2)
victim (3)
authoritative
mean, cruel (2), insensitive (4), cold
judgemental (2)
unloving, unaffectionate
unfaithful (4)
nagging
dishonest
egotistical (3)
manipulative (2)
spineless (2)
sending mixed messages (2)
irresponsible

I am looking at the list.....as a matter of fact..... in some way, they are all a part of me....I either was subjected to actions coming from these.....don't know what to call them...wouldn't call them qualities....or I have actually subjected others to them....so I am sensitive to them all.... these are things I try to strive to NOT BE in my life..... so I am 'aware' of them...

I see that some I have directly experienced...like: UNFAITHFUL...when I was young, I was 'unfaithful' to one of my boyfriends.... felt AWFUL....and broke up with him....didn't see it as a good 'foundation'....I have also been 'cheated' on and didn't like that at all either!

I have caught myself acting the VICTIM, and being SPINELESS sometimes....which I don't want to be!

JUDGEMENTAL and ARROGANT: caught myself doing that, too...and also have been on the receiving end!

In one way or another, I have experienced what's on the list, either as a player or a witness, or both, and I guess...can't say that those were my proudest moments! ...but I cannot deny them.... that is probably then why I am 'picking them up' in others!

Hi Believer,

...just needed to tell how much this post of yours made me laugh...LOLROF-type......I know...you many not remember it...it's on page 4.....late starter here....

I also see that I didn't quite get the exercise right... because whatever is on the list....is more or less something I am trying NOT to be.....but here are some of the things I seem to be having some trouble with and still use:

On one hand I can see myself sometimes playing the VICTIM, being SPINELESS (I guess don't want to be responsible)...yet on the other hand...I find myself to be overly-responsible....can't seem to get a balance sometimes.....why I do this? I guess by being a victim I would like to be taken care....the child in me... and from being overly-responsible.....I get admiration and gratitude

AUTHORITATIVE & MANIPULATIVE: to get what I want....but I feel that I am truly getting better at doing less and less of this....and work more and more to find solutions that will get me a win-win scenario

....and I would say that generally....all on the list would be considered self-serving only.... which I do not want to be......I aim to find the win-win solutions... not just what would benefit me at the expense of someone else..... I can derive no satisfaction of doing, being, getting anything if it would mean a very high cost to anyone else, particularly if it's someone I love and care for..... which I guess, the bottom line, is still a self-serving motivation.... but I find it to be the most humane!

I know.....I know...the unreachable staaaaarrrrr!

Hello,

Maybe I did the list too quickly.... Having had a chance to think about it....I have thought of other 'characteristics' of others that I don't like....which, if I got the gist of the exercise, are basically those characteristics about ME ....that I DON'T like...and I guess, up to a point, don't like to admit to having!

Leave it to LA to get us to 'come clean'!!!!

Now I am worried that at the end of this exercise I may just end up hating myself! ... and guess this is where we are suppposed to 'feel the fear and do it anyway'????

...but I will take a break and visit my TKO gang.....I know...yes....it's avoidance....and putting some 'space' to this 'unmasking' exercise....or at least see if I am not too much of a LATEE.....so I will wait to hear from Chief LA about it.... maybe I can get away with having started too late???

((Luna!))

Thank you for doing this exercise.

violent, self-righteous, abusive, victim

authoritative, nagging, judgemental

mean, unloving, cruel,

unaffectionate, insensitive, cold,

unfaithful, dishonest,

arrogant, egotistical

manipulative, buying 'off' with money

spineless

irresponsible

Ask each of these why they are in you...be loving and open to hear what they say...I see them as connected...ask each one and in their answer, see if you get similar feelings/thoughts and let me know, 'k?

"I also see that I didn't quite get the exercise right... because whatever is on the list....is more or less something I am trying NOT to be....."

LOL - Luna, you got the exercise EXACTLY right...we spend our lives disowning pieces of ourselves to perfect ourselves...without ever really knowing why we have these villagers as part of ourselves...which means we feel disowned, apart, bad, wrong, defective, not included...

Until we find out why they are in us, we are spending a lot of energy working against ourselves...so please ask each one...and notice, you are judging these traits...and judgmental is one of your villagers. You could start with that one.

Because of this, you fear that the end of the exercise you will hate yourself...are you loving yourself now? All of you? Or are you already hating parts of yourself, who you really are, because...why?

Hang in with me, Luna...holding your fear of what you don't know is essential...and you're right...doing it anyway is, too.

I look forward to hearing what these villagers tell you...and thank you for your bravery, for posting here, and being true to yourself. I believe that is a great choice.

LA

I guess this means.....I am not too late to do the exercise??

Geesh.... you are right....I will have to take a bit of time to just 'accept' that I actually have these traits in ME....GULP!.... before I get down to the serious business of WHY?.....


OOHH HOOO....they are connected alright! .....they are all traits I HATE to think I have in ME! ....



...well..I guess I could put my energies to better use!


Yes I am!....I am judging these traits....I think they are awful.....and I don't want to have them.....URGHHH....


...I don't feel brave anymore! Oh Lord!

OK...let's go with the tiny steps.....(before being tempted to go back to page 4 and read on..and cheat!)

Why would I be judgemental? ....because this helps me to decide what I want/don't want....what I like or not..... what I will do/not do..... who will be my friends and who won't be my friends!....... I guess it can be like a two-edged sword.... it's how one uses it.... the intend..... to do better or hurt others.....

LA...am I in the right direction...before I try to tackle the others...

Luna,

"Why would I be judgemental? ....because this helps me to decide what I want/don't want....what I like or not..... what I will do/not do..... who will be my friends and who won't be my friends!....... I guess it can be like a two-edged sword.... it's how one uses it.... the intend..... to do better or hurt others.....

LA...am I in the right direction...before I try to tackle the others..."

Okay, I think you're sidestepping...I would like you to sit down, in a quiet place, with your list of villagers...calm your mind, do some deep breathing and relax yourself...then picture in your mind "judgmental" and ask it "Why are you in me" and HEAR it's response.

Why was it created?

From what...for what purpose?

The sidestepping comes because you're trying to see the end, I believe, rather than hear it's origin...

This is really important...this exercise is to EMBRACE your villagers...and hold to the image that first handed you this one...your distaste for it in others...finding it in yourself and now your intent is first to understand, then be understood.

Try that with judgmental...no rush...write down what it says to you...and ironically, listen without judgment, 'k?

LOL

The difference between simple and easy is vast.

LA

Hello soul sister LA,

Hard question...goes deeper then just my marriage. It goes into all aspects of all the R's in my life. The villager I was most surprised that lived in me was the abandoner. I was like.."huh could this be true? could I really be an abandoner?" when I have continually feared being abandoned...but there it was in me. It required a hard look at self and choices I have made. Many choices made to try to stay in control...out of fear and as a way to control that fear. The whole leave before you are left MO in me...yet there are some huge DJ's in that about self and others.

What I see in this choice making MO was a pattern of assumptions and one of wanting to try to always predict the outcomes of everything. I was kind of living my life in a worse case scenario mode. I would worse case scenario my R's and my life choices and then make choices based in what is the worse thing that could happen. I wanted to predict everything so that I could prepare myself for the inevitable...the worst. Hmmm...what does that say about the assumptions I was making about myself and others? Was I saying that presented with options that I would always choose the worst possible outcome? Would others? Some pretty flawed thinking...but very understandable when you are in your shame based self taught that you are incapable of making good decisions. What a revelation. I relied heavily on others for their input rather then trusting myself to know what might really be best case scenario for me? I also wonder if this was a cop out so that when led to make what I knew in my heart of hearts were not the best choices for me...then I could anchor resentment for others because after all that was what they thought I should do. Was it a way of self protecting? Or was it just a huge DJ to self.... reckless irresponsibility for self.

We are not God...we can never really know the future or predict what will happen. We can try but that trying is really tiring always trying to protect self from what is not ours to protect ourselves from...the future. Worse case scenarios only led me to make choices based out of fear. Fear that I wouldn't be able to handle whatever it was that I was so sure of so afraid would happen.

My divorce taught me many things. It took me full circle of a worst case scenario but it also taught me the value of not living in our truth. What I also learned from that is that even in a worse case scenario I survived. We both survived the pain of the divorce. So yes to answer your question rather then fearing the unknown my H and I maybe have lived in the fear of the known. Yes...we both know we could survive but do we want to survive that again? Again your point of the reverse that I didn't divorce speaks volumes of what you see. Goes back to black and white thinking where there are no shades of gray. What if we allowed ourselves permission to accept the gray?

I keep going back to something I have heard many times over the course of my life...Life is not a dress rehearsal. I was operating from an idea that my life would begin when...I graduated from college...or got married...or had a career...or a baby etc. Was I living in the idea that my life wasn't really happening all around me already... now there is something to really think about. Life happening right now...all the time. The other things are milestones in a person's life but they don't define our life.

I have been thinking about Harville Hendrix's imago theory that we are meant to heal ourselves with our partner. If we don't heal ourselves with our partner and end R after R just as Bradshaw says we will find the same kind of person to do the shame work with. Until we do the grief work we will continue the same R over and over again with another person.

I see that I abandoned myself over and over again. I think maybe I felt misdirected resentment toward others when in fact the reality is that I was more resentful toward myself. I was mad at myself more than I was really mad at others. I see this now. It is a measure of self protection to assume the resentment is directed at others. If we look at the resentment we feel toward ourself it is scary. What if we continue to shame ourselves?

What if accepting ourselves frees us into acceptance of ourselves and that acceptance spills over into our acceptance of others. I think about what God commands us to do. Love one another as I have loved you. What if that also includes self acceptance and loving ourselves as He loves us. What if isn't selfish to take care of self...but rather selfless? To love ourselves unconditionally the way He loves us. What if in loving ourselves in an unconditional way allows us to love others that way. Removing our masks... seeing ourselves for who we really are and removing the shame that binds us. Removing the plank from our own eye...rather than to focus on the speck in someone else. When we see the plank as shame it helps us to understand the speck in others with a more kind loving spirit the way God intended for us to love others.

What if we remove the shame from our villagers and accept them unconditionally? Rather than seeing them as good or bad but just as is...labeling and using language that shames us for our emotions bad...good...black...white...right...wrong...always..never. What happens when we stop labeling and using extreme language? Does it change our thinking? When you mentioned later in your post about therapists and the idea that we are incurable...what if therapists don't want us to be done because it means that their job is done. What if the work we do with a therapist validates them? You are right on the money when you say that there aren't really problem people but rather people with problems...looking at it this way removes the shame. When someone is told they are a problem rather than they have problems moves it into shame based thinking.

I asked you to get that CD the one I linked in another post because I think it would be very helpful to you. If you choose to get it...listen to it when you are in your car or when you are alone. Remove everyone else from the lyrics except for yourself and God and think of the lyrics as they relate to your relationship with yourself and your inner shame based child and your R with God. I think when you listen with this frame of mind to this particular mindset I found something so beautiful and healing in these lyrics. This artist is also adopted so it takes on a different meaning as well. Her mom died while she was pregnant with her first child so for me there is another level of attachment to the lyrics that is just another layer.

One of my first post graduate courses was a really small class and the instructor was really good. One thing she pointed out to the class is why we feel a certain level of attachment or connection to certain people in our lives. She said that the more alike we are the more we identify with someone. This makes a lot of sense to me...maybe why I feel a strong bond to you. When I look at what we have in common...adoption, enmeshment, being both the WS and the BS...and so many more shame based connections that I know I was supposed to meet you and you were supposed to meet me. Because there are parallels there is a level of acceptance and understanding and the desire to expose to each other on that deep level. Why? Perhaps we are a mirror to each other and to ourselves when we have these aha moments. Just a thought.





Well look where fantasy living got us...it took us farther and farther away from our authentic self. In enmeshment and self protection we shamed our own selves. Could this be where some resentment comes in....resentment at self. Denying feelings and shaming ourselves for having those feelings. If the opposite of exploding is imploding what if shoving those feelings down for so long for so very long has caused us to live in a state of perpetual imploding? What if imploding causes resentment toward self and others?

What if we say to our villagers...thank you. Thank you for all that you have given me over the years. What if we accept the villagers just as they are without shaming ourselves for having them within us? What if respected them for all that they have or haven't led us to?

So if one of my MO's was to run and the other was to live in a fantasy that everything is okay (the mask to the world) where does that leave me? What message was I sending to myself... either A nothing is going to be okay or the reverse everything is okay (under rug swept) both maybe are aspects of lying to self. What if being okay is a gray area? What if we see okay differently? What if okay is an ongoing process of acceptance of self?



I am glad you brought this up because my H wasn't as hip to the idea of doing this as I was. He quickly correlated that the villagers are within ourselves way before I got to telling him that so he was not to pleased to do this because he didn't really want to think about these things in himself. He was a bit annoyed and hurried about getting this exercise over with. So we have processed slowly through this...me trying hard not to rush him. To let it sink in.

The villagers that bother him the most about himself are selfish and judgemental. When we talked about that I have these too...I think there was an audible sigh of relief. The shame goes so deep. We are both working on separating the trait from the person...the sin from the sinner. We have a choice here...to continue to be unaccepting of these villagers or to embrace them.

I think the idea of asking ourself why they are in us is so important. Perhaps when we see why they are there we are more able to be accepting of them. Not as good or bad but just as they are.


Exactly...our villagers are our own. Although we may share some in common they may or may not be in us for the same reasons. When we accept ourselves in totality I find I am way more accepting of others. Wouldn't this be loving one another as He has loved us?

Regarding tantrums yes I agree as children we maybe didn't have the skill set to get our needs met...and if we didn't learn how to really get those needs met as an adult our tantrums are just more sophisticated means of crying out...I don't know any other way. Just as a child learns to manipulate to get what they want ...the adult child learns the more sophisticated art of manipulation but it really isn't all that different at the heart of it. When we become more honest with ourselves and realize that we can indeed find ways to get our needs met in an adult way what message does that send to our child? Yes, you didn't know a way then but I am learning new ways and we aren't stuck...we can move forward.

Interestingly as I have started to validate my own kids during one of their tantrums stating that I can understand why they feel upset or angry...the tantrum loses it momentum. Validating another person's feelings and not shaming them for having those feelings is very powerful. Telling someone that it is okay to have those feelings and that there isn't anything wrong with those feelings hands the other person their power and control back. Hmmmm interesting as to how that relates to the adult tantrum as well. Removing the shame of the feelings and just allowing them is freeing. When we stop judging our emotions as good and bad...it allows us to connect with our authentic self. When we allow ourself to validate our feelings we are also more able to allow ourselves to validate others feelings as well.

Right back at you sister...God knows what He is doing. He knows and brings us those that can really help us in our own journey. When we let Him anchor us and show us those who are here to help us we honor Him. I know how much I need you. It isn't a coincidence.

I love this analogy. A long held belief that we had to earn love therefore others had to earn it too. Wow...how much resentment does that cause within self. What happens when we accept that we are humans being not humans doing? When we accept that love is there not to be earned but to be given freely and wholeheartedly and received in the same manner. Huge breakthrough with that knowledge.

Like maybe a caged animal...panicking not knowing where to go with all of it. Controlling ourselves to try to conform to the idea of who we thought we were supposed to be rather than accepting our authentic self as who we really are and the beautifulness of seeing that.

So true...if we affirm ourselves through others alone when we aren't receiving the affirmation we want or need from others instead of self then we get ourselves in a boat without a paddle. I am so much more clear about how the fog works on the BS side of then I was on WS side maybe I needed to become the BS to truly own my WS way of thinking. I see the need to be validated by someone else as the biggest reason any A happens. When we step back and get our tool kit together and begin to really see ourselves and accept ourselves we are more able to go deeper within and accept why this kind of thing happens. What if an A states to us that we aren't enough as we are? What happens when we step back into ourselves and see that in fact when we accept ourselves the way we are that we no longer need outside validation to feel okay about ourselves rather that we can indeed reconcile our own feelings and then present those to our partner in a new way. Hmmmmm...

Just as you see that your NPD isn't the real you never was...A's aren't really us either. They are manifestations of not being real selves. Maybe embracing all of our villagers allows us to accept the humanness in all of us. What if when we looked in the mirror and said self...you are okay. You have hurt yourself and others as a result of not accepting your authentic self. Stop...you are okay in all of who you are. No one else can fix you...but you can make some choices about self acceptance and about accepting others and how will this acceptance change your decision making patterns?

I have decided that predictability is not my best friend anymore. I don't have to know exactly how it will all pan out. I have the peace of knowing that I have surrendered myself to God and in the knowing that He loves me as I am that I too can love myself as I am. I have faith that in Him I am okay and because of Him I can really look at myself without the critical self hatred I once did but rather through the eyes of He who isn't shame based. Then the inner work I do is to glorify Him and will He not rejoice that I accept that He knows more than I do.

I have lived in my head for too long...nice change to live in my heart again.

Thank you for being you and for being so brutally honest about yourself as it gives me courage again and again to live in truth.

Hi LA,



I am not surprised! ...



LA?...this means going back to childhood....and you know what?... I generally don't like to go there..... so...I am not surprised that I am sidestepping it...

I know for a fact....that I have avoided looking fully at one major event that happened in my childhood....when I know that my world was turned upside down.... I SURVIVED it with flying colours...and I learned a lot....but I never looked at the 'damage' done... because...because... I did not think it would be manageable....because I would take a lot of time to unravel...... and had already too much to deal with the present.....but I know it has played a major role in my life and in who I am today!

It will probably help for you to know a short version....I was born in Italy....in a very small mountain village (talk about villagers!)... I was surrounded by familiarity.... knew many of the villagers (them, yes!).... knew the actual village inside out with all the 'hide and seek'games I played.... the extended family, particularly the two sets of grandparents, were a sure bet for getting affection....they had farms...played with dogs, chickens, sheep, cows.... ran in large fields.....the horizon from a small mountain village is vast...like that of the ocean....it is neverending...able to see neighbouring villages in the distance... a small village for a child is...very manageable....

However...try as they could (my dad went 'north' as a labourer for a time)....my parents were having a hard time 'providing' for their little family...and the cost of 'higher' education, which they wanted for my big brother and I, knowing that it was a key to opportunities, lurked in the background.... and my dad going off on his own to earn a living in another country was not a good long-term solution....

At the time...many of the villagers had taken to emigrating to Canada for economic reasons.... including many of my parents'cousins.... then two of my uncles did the same... and, although initially it was not an option, since my parents were not exactly a young married couple, they had been married for about 13-14 yrs with two children... and although it was not an easy decision....to start all over again....we did emigrate....with practically nothing more than the clothes on our backs!

So...my whole world changed overnight when I was about 10-11 yrs old....

Went from my 'comfort zone' of my small village...to adapting to a big city, no horizon - just big buildings, learning a new language, making new friends (unfortunately changing 3 schools in 3 yrs didn't help much)...and most importantly....since in fact children 'adapt' quickly...... I easily learned the language....which, in turn, changed the dynamics of our family..... people don't understand the 'power' of language until you don't have it... my parents did not have a lot of formal education, one reason why they valued it even more and knew the limitations of not having one,... they got manual work in factories where language was not essential....but it was for everything else.... from going to the bank, to reading the bills, to filling out income tax forms.... you name it! ...so the good thing...in an immigrant family....as in my case....the child's contribution is very much valued..... on the other hand.... the child no longer gets to be a child..... as the responsibility of being the 'intermediary' between two worlds, two languages, two cultures, even though satisfying, is no easy task!

I know I have a 'solid' foundation having no doubt of the love my parents have for me... the sacrifices they were willing to make for the sake of my brother and I, in wanting to give us a better opportunity, in wanting so much to fulfil their responsibilities as parents in the best way they knew how.... and I know this experience has kept us very close.... my brother and I, rather than being fighting siblings, looked after each other.... became each other's best friend.... and to this day.....even if I don't see my brother very much...it doesn't matter... he is in my heart....and I am in his.... the same with my parents....

...and I make no bones about the fact that not wanting to burden neither my parents nor my brother with one of the biggest challenges facing me right now.....is one of my biggest motivators....because I know without a doubt.... they would 'drop everything' to come to my rescue.... but I want them so much to live 'their' lives..... and obviously, if you haven't heard, I love my boys to death.... and so I don't want THEM either... to be burdened with the hole left by their dad..... and so.... it means that I will sometimes be down.... but I will dust myself off... and I WILL rise to the occasion....and I will come out on top.....for both the sake of myself and of those that I love!

Yes..love does come with responsibilities, for me the biggest one is not to abuse it, but I also find love to be a great gift...I have been blessed to have it in my life...it's a great source of energy...for me anyway...and yes, any crisis, gets my 'protector' mode out....for those that I love, which includes myself...and which is why PLAN B is not so difficult to do...once the destructive egotistical (sp??) ways of a WS, even at the cost of his family, became clear!

But I also know that this event....brought a lot of pain....

....my childhood playground was an ocean away....so were my friends....my grandparents... my 'comfort' zone....didn't go back until in my mid-twenties!

...the children in the school yard of my 'new world', if regularly cruel to each other, raise the bar when it came to immigrant children.... I 'ducked' some of the abuse by being 'intelligent' and getting respect for it.... but then the adversaries changed.... those jealous of academic success....

...being overwhelmed by gov't bureaucracy at times.....and just in general.....by having to play a role and having responsibilities a child is usually never meant have.....

Yes....many of these experience have helped me in my life.... but....I know somewhere I probably also paid a price!

Yes...these villagers are connected....and I suspect many are connected to this one major event in my life in some way or another.... and I guess this is just a good a time to give them a chance to be HEARD! ...they certainly have waited long enough!

So...LA....I will take my list....and sit still....and try to HEAR....but it might take me some time... because I expect to find resistance in myself..... but I will be back....with something for you to help me navigate into this unknown territory of myself...full of 'mines'.....

Yes...I agree....it's simple...not necessarily easy!

LA,

I am struggling this week. My villagers are restless for lack of a better description.

I feel some sadness. I feel some anger. I feel some resentment. I feel some frustration. Why are these in me? I ask myself. As I do this recovery work I realize it isn't a one shot to the finish line recovery. It seems like I will revisit again and again some issues and some villagers. I am trying not to be judgemental of any of my villagers because I know they are in me and judging them harshly only serves to make me feel more unhealthy.

Okay let me be more specific about my feelings. Let's begin with my feelings about the FOW in our current situation. I thought that I had moved to a place of forgiveness toward her but I now see that this isn't completely true at all. I have tried to not judge her behavior and to forgive her the way that God has forgiven me. Knowing that I have committed the same sins as her seems as though it would make it easier. I still feel anger toward her. I don't want to feel this way. I want to remove any feelings about her altogether. I pray and ask God to guide me into a place of true forgiveness because I know what He has done for me.

I am working on not black kettling. I am fully aware of my own sins relating to my own A. I did some pretty horrible things yet I know because of God's help and forgiveness that I am not a horrible person.

So why am I struggling so much still. I thought I was past this and had forgiven her completely but I see that in fact I have not. I am wondering if since not expressing but rather stuffing anger has been my way for so long that perhaps this is just another example of not dealing with the totality of my feelings of anger. What am I angry about? I am angry that she shows no sense of remorse for her actions. I am angry that she introduced drugs into my H's life ( a battle with a particular drug that I thought and even I think he thought he was DONE with.)? I am angry that she used this "secret" regarding the drugs to hold over him and to use it as a weapon to scare him from radical honesty with me about it. He did eventually remorsefully confess all of this to me even though he was more afraid that I would leave him for this than the A. Somehow with God's help he found the courage to own this and tell me the truth about this. I feel angry toward her that she continued to lord this over his head using the idea that he owed her money as a manipulation to control him. He was responding out of fear. When he came clean and realized not only that I would forgive him and agree that it was best to pay off all debt owed to her so she would no longer have any stronghold over him I felt very very angry not toward my H but toward her. I know my H made some horrible mistakes in regard to getting involved with this drug and felt relieved to have me know so that we could in fact address the issue and see what might have been the underlying causes for him to get messed up in that again.

Why do I have so much anger toward her about this when I can forgive my H for this? He is a big boy and he made the choice to do what he did. It wasn't all her doing that caused him to falter in this way. He owns his actions and takes responsibility for them. He is no longer involved with drugs (he hadn't gotten very far into that before he came to his own realization that in fact this was NOT what he wanted and this was an extremely harmful choice he was making.)

My anger and resentment toward her stems in part from the fact that she went to HS with my H and knows the history behind the addiction he had...this addiction that led him to try to kill himself at 16 in the garage with carbon monoxide. His brother fortunately came him in the midst of this suicide attempt and he was rushed to the ER where they said he would have been dead in less than half an hour had he not been found. This addiction made my H feel so worthless about himself that in fact he wanted to end his life. He went to a lock down rehab. for 45 days and ended his addiction to this awful drug. He had one relapse in college that sent him to the ER and that was the last time he ever touched that poison prior to his A with the OW. My anger issue toward her I think stems from reading the emails that they wrote to each other saying I love you to each other. I am angry that someone would claim to love someone and then full well knowing their drug history and suicide attempt bring that back into his life. I feel like this "secret" about the drugs was what she used as power of him to keep him bound to her and in fear that she would expose this to me. I am furious that she did this. I felt as though I wanted to physically attack her for this.

Yet in my heart with God's help I see that she is just a broken person who is not okay with herself. That she cannot make good choices for herself because she is so unhealthy and therefore isn't capable of making healthy choices about any one else in her life including choices about my H and her H and her kids. I am trying so hard to forgive her for all of it. I don't hate her but I still hold deep seated resentment toward the idea that her choices (and my H's too could have killed him and her for that matter) could have taken my H's life and caused me to become a widow and my kids to be without a father.

I am proud of my H's transparency at this point regarding this and the other aspects of the A. I respect that he owns what he did and shows remorse. I am proud of me for owning my part of the breakdown of our M. I know what I did that led my H away from me and why he felt lonely. I am not mad at him for the feelings of emptiness that led him to look outside us to get those needs met.

I wonder if perhaps my anger and resentment are less about her and more about me. I wonder if maybe this goes back to my own A and whether or not I have actually truly forgiven myself for what I did...to another woman, her family etc.

I know that God does indeed forgive me for what I did but I also know that forgiveness doesn't eliminate consequences for our actions. I realize now that I didn't do any real recovery work (self grief and shame work) when my first marriage ended and I remarried. I did nothing to affair proof my second marriage. I certainly was about as far away from God as a person can be then and although I did believe at the time that I was not the kind of person who could have an A I learned that in fact I was.

I assumed that my H was not that type either. Both of us did feel guilt and shame for our actions yet we didn't do any work to see why it happened or how to prevent it from happening again. We just thought ...this isn't really the kind of people we are and we won't ever allow ourselves to make this kind of poor judgement again. Yet...here we are 11 years later dealing with exactly that which we assumed could never happen to us. Assuming is a huge err of judgement.

I wonder if maybe I am really mad and resentful toward myself. Like maybe my villagers are trying to show me something about myself and what I need to work on.

The other night I was lying next to my H and we were looking at each other. I saw love and felt love for and from my H. Yet I began to cry. The reason I began to cry was that I began to allow myself to go there. To think and wonder if the FOW looked and felt the way I did in that moment about my H with such deep love. I allowed myself to consider if he looked at her with the love he was looking at me with. I know this wasn't healthy for me to do. I felt jealous thinking that another woman could be looking at him the way I do and that he could be looking at her the way he was looking at me. I know that these are assumptions I was making because I wasn't there and don't know whether or not he ever looked at her that way or if she looked at him that way...but I felt incredibly sad when I allowed myself those feelings.

When my H asked me why the tears I tried to be as honest as I could without trying to hurt his feelings. I didn't react toward him with anger...just the truth that I love him so deeply and that it hurts to think about his heart being open to her in that way. He didn't get mad just seemed sad that I would compare the two.

There is some transference going on here I think. I think wow...I had those feelings toward him when he was someone else's husband. What does that say about me? I was selfish yes and uncaring yes and deceitful yes and a bunch of other things too.

Then there still lies the label and the stigma of the label "affair marriage". These are consequences for my actions yes? Is it healthy for me to continue this line of thinking? Am I disrespecting self, H, the M by continuing to label my M an "affair marriage". Is there a way to remove this label and if so how? Because neither my H or I were in a R with God for so long I see how we weren't really able to forgive ourselves or be forgiven because we weren't surrendered to God or His will. I have prayed and quieted myself asking God to guide my thinking about my M. I don't feel God is guiding me toward a divorce. I feel God is guiding me to do the self work that is necessary to stop the shame spiral and begin again. Spiritual rebirth for self and God willing spiritual rebirth for our M.

I feel a different level of commitment toward my H and my M that is based on choice not fear.

I think about the amends we both have made toward my H's first wife. I think about the forgiveness that has been offered to both of us from her and then I think about how she has forgiven me and if she can forgive me then shouldn't I work harder to forgive the FOW? I know there are some differences as XW will always be a part of our life because they share a child. I know that we need a working relationship with her. We don't need a working R with the FOW since there are no OC involved. However I am not sure what to do with my feelings toward the FOW. Is it wrong of me to harbor anger toward her? Is the anger really more directed at me or is it really about her? I am not sure. What is your perspective regarding all of this?

I know this road isn't easy and the answer aren't either. I know that the recovery will continue and as I further develop my R with God, self, and my H that it may always be a work in progress which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing (notice I am trying very hard to remove those statements of good bad/ right wrong/ etc. out of my vocabulary.)

LA...I need some help to identify where the sadness is coming from...the anger...the resentment....all of it. Would you be so kind as to ask the questions I need to look at and then I will think hard on those answers.

Thanks again.
Love,
Jilly

Luna,

I didn't see your post until just now. Thank you for coming back and sharing. Seems another step in holding your fear and posting anyway. Thank you!

LA

JJ,

Great to see you...so I'm thankful your villagers are asserting themselves.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I feel some sadness. I feel some anger. I feel some resentment. I feel some frustration. Why are these in me?"

These are emotions, not villagers. There's a difference. Sadness is a signal, it's information about you from your beliefs...trace it back...it signals grieving, loss...find where it is coming from...a hidden expectation? Anger is a secondary emotion...there is a primary one...identify that one and you'll see where your anger stepped in and why.

Frustration usually is from expectations.

"I ask myself. As I do this recovery work I realize it isn't a one shot to the finish line recovery."

Terrific recognition. Would be a great mantra.

"It seems like I will revisit again and again some issues and some villagers. I am trying not to be judgemental of any of my villagers because I know they are in me and judging them harshly only serves to make me feel more unhealthy."

There is a difference between revisiting and dwelling...which are you doing? I continue to use the villagers exercise when I see something OUTSIDE myself trigger one of them.

"Okay let me be more specific about my feelings. Let's begin with my feelings about the FOW in our current situation. I thought that I had moved to a place of forgiveness toward her but I now see that this isn't completely true at all."

Ahh, JJ...welcome to another stage of recovery. Soul sister of mine...I did the same thing...from my belief that when I settled something in me, it stopped being an issue. I left no room for truth...that I settled it for right now...allowing to work through it again and again, as it arose.

"I have tried to not judge her behavior and to forgive her the way that God has forgiven me. Knowing that I have committed the same sins as her seems as though it would make it easier."

Surprise! It doesn't. LOL. Didn't for me. You are giving too much rent in your mind to FOW...take it back. She was fantasy, not reality. Teach yourself to NOT think of her. See, she didn't ask for your forgiveness...you can really only forgive yourself.

"I still feel anger toward her. I don't want to feel this way."

Check to see if this anger comes from the knowledge that anything can happen to us at anytime in our lives...it's where A's show us we really do not control others...and brings it deeply home. Lots of fear and anger arising from that fear...and our belief we had more control. Signalling us...find out where you may be blaming yourself...your lack of control...being a cause...or believing you can cure. Then see if that signal is as strong.

"I want to remove any feelings about her altogether. I pray and ask God to guide me into a place of true forgiveness because I know what He has done for me."

Stop thinking about her, first. Each time she comes to mind, catch it immediately, and say, "I don't want that" and go on to your next thought. Teach your brain that your obsessing is done...you don't want that handed to you...other triggers are enough...inviting OW into our thoughts isn't necessary or desired. Uzzah taught me this.

And it reinforces that you believe you cannot control OW. See, if you have to forgive her for what she did to you, then that tells self you have power or she over you, doesn't it? What you do understand is that she did what she did...and you won't know what or why she did...she's asked no forgiveness...hasn't promised not to do it again...it's not about you and her...it's about you and you. You now understand how thoroughly, unquestionably your past actions felt from THIS side...and so the sadness (grieving a lot of losses), frustration (you should have known betters) and anger may be at self, not her. Easier to make it about her. I know. I remember.

"I am working on not black kettling. I am fully aware of my own sins relating to my own A. I did some pretty horrible things yet I know because of God's help and forgiveness that I am not a horrible person."

I love that! Black kettling...sounds like backpedaling in my mind. Knowing this doesn't deny how much you hurt inside...so don't deny. You hurt terribly...know it...find out where a lot of that pain is coming from inside of you...

"So why am I struggling so much still."

Do you have the expectation you won't struggle? That there is a cure you haven't found? Can you see how tracing your own stuff...understanding the information being handed to you by you isn't a struggle? You can relax, ask inside and know...slowly, surely, each day...or are you in the habit of curing yourself of emotions you don't want? Emotional management?

"I thought I was past this and had forgiven her completely but I see that in fact I have not. I am wondering if since not expressing but rather stuffing anger has been my way for so long that perhaps this is just another example of not dealing with the totality of my feelings of anger."

Was for me...I first denied I had a right to be angry or hurt from WH's A...because of my choices. I felt angry and hurt, anyway. Then I saw where each person owns what they did...whether they consciously do that or not...and I got to where I prayed for OW. A few months later, I was bashing myself for losing that mindset, that perspective...and felt intense anger from focusing on her. I found out I fed a lot of thoughts with images and imagining several terrible things happening to her...which was a great distraction from myself. It was my own self-bashing that gave so much rent to OW in my mind. Still me, my choice. I revoked that permission.

Do you self-bash?

"What am I angry about? I am angry that she shows no sense of remorse for her actions."

Are you also angry because you cannot make her feel remorse?

"I am angry that she introduced drugs into my H's life ( a battle with a particular drug that I thought and even I think he thought he was DONE with.)?"

Perception correction--your H chose to allow her influence and the drug into your lives...still part of the fantasy of a quick fix...go deeper...to emotional management, modifying our information instead of receiving it...see it for what it is, not where it came from. Ownership will help here. And you examining your own expectation of not one more piece of crap to deal with...rather than learning why something is in your life now...

"I am angry that she used this "secret" regarding the drugs to hold over him and to use it as a weapon to scare him from radical honesty with me about it."

Reset perception. She could not make him do anything he didn't choose to do. His own fear, choices and reasons. Do not make her own in your mind what isn't hers. Your anger at her may be hiding your anger with him...coming from your expectation he not be like that...which makes you too vulnerable. Clear out your thoughts...see that he did and does, she did, and you did and do...not bad, not good, just seat yourself in choices and clarify what you truly believe.

"He did eventually remorsefully confess all of this to me even though he was more afraid that I would leave him for this than the A. Somehow with God's help he found the courage to own this and tell me the truth about this."

He told you what and why...did he own his choices?

"I feel angry toward her that she continued to lord this over his head using the idea that he owed her money as a manipulation to control him. He was responding out of fear."

He chose to react from fear. Know that choice.

"When he came clean and realized not only that I would forgive him and agree that it was best to pay off all debt owed to her so she would no longer have any stronghold over him I felt very very angry not toward my H but toward her."

If the reasonable consequence of not paying her off was going to jail, then that might have been the best possible choice. Living in truth is living from your beliefs directly...not reacting to emotions...and you may believe you helped him dodge the natural consequences of his choices. Might create a lot of anger and pain in you from your choice.

"I know my H made some horrible mistakes in regard to getting involved with this drug and felt relieved to have me know so that we could in fact address the issue and see what might have been the underlying causes for him to get messed up in that again."

You mentioned prescription drugs before...something you both share an awareness of and both of you getting to your underlying permissions is essential for knowing yourselves, seeing your choices, your choice to react, to manage, enhances your life and his own. Is there a chance you believe you can get to his stuff and he can get to yours, instead of each of you personally recovering together?

"Why do I have so much anger toward her about this when I can forgive my H for this? He is a big boy and he made the choice to do what he did. It wasn't all her doing that caused him to falter in this way. He owns his actions and takes responsibility for them. He is no longer involved with drugs (he hadn't gotten very far into that before he came to his own realization that in fact this was NOT what he wanted and this was an extremely harmful choice he was making.)"

Why be angry at her for what is his? Why be angry at him for what is yours? We have patterns...deflection and reflection...and it's human. Living in truth is getting straight with ourselves...

"My anger and resentment toward her stems in part from the fact that she went to HS with my H and knows the history behind the addiction he had"

So your belief that she should have acted better is giving you anger? How can that be? Your anger is for you about you...do you believe you can protect your H from himself, his choices? How could she? Why would she?

"This addiction made my H feel so worthless about himself"

Point of ownership here...snake eating itself image...your H's addiction did not make him feel worthless about himself...his belief he was worthless gave him permission to have the addiction.

"My anger issue toward her I think stems from reading the emails that they wrote to each other saying I love you to each other."

Yes, OUCH, I remember. "I am angry that someone would claim to love someone and then full well knowing their drug history and suicide attempt bring that back into his life."

She didn't love him, and he didn't love her. Period. Are you mothering your H? Are you controlling him through others? Is he that defective, needy and pitiful? That if you're not watching out for him, if he cuts your influence out of his life, you want others to do what you do, take care of him? Can you see the immense disrespect in that belief?

Could this be the issue in you which hasn't changed? What you control, are responsible for, and what you cannot control nor be responsible for? Not in God's design.

You are experiencing rage...and not tracing it to the belief...you believe humans can cause others to self-destruct...and they cannot. You believe humans can control and cure others of what is only others'...and they cannot. If you believe this, then you still believe you can do all those things...which would create great frustration, rage and pain in you. Wouldn't it? Could the sadness be you grieving the loss of this belief? A signal that what you now believe changes everything?

"I don't hate her but I still hold deep seated resentment toward the idea that her choices (and my H's too could have killed him and her for that matter) could have taken my H's life and caused me to become a widow and my kids to be without a father."

He could be dead. He isn't. That's always up to him, not you, not her, nor anyone else. You sound like a mother, not a partner. Your H chose to have an A, which took him from you...from the marriage...dead to it while it lasted. So was he to your kids because he put his own coping device ahead of all of you. He did that...not her. Her half was hers...his was his. If you continue to spend time in what might have been, you will experience all the emotions as if it REALLY happened...very messy, getting those false signals separate from real ones.

"I am proud of my H's transparency at this point regarding this and the other aspects of the A. I respect that he owns what he did and shows remorse."

Why can't you stop owning stuff that is OW's, then?

"I am proud of me for owning my part of the breakdown of our M. I know what I did that led my H away from me and why he felt lonely. I am not mad at him for the feelings of emptiness that led him to look outside us to get those needs met."

NONONO...you didn't lead H away from you...he chose NOT to address conflict directly, his own stuff, to you...nor you to him. He can feel empty and remain faithful. He can feel empty because HE HAS FELT EMPTY ALL HIS LIFE. What you need to address is that you've voluntarily been his drug, his cause, cure and control and to do so is ABUSE.

"I wonder if perhaps my anger and resentment are less about her and more about me. I wonder if maybe this goes back to my own A and whether or not I have actually truly forgiven myself for what I did...to another woman, her family etc."

If you owned what you did to her...and promised not to do that again, demonstrated your remorse to her face or in a letter, then you've done your part. Because of our design, everything you have experienced with WH is what she did...the rage, the depth of pain, agony, erasure...you did that. Amends means you can't undo it...you can do your amends.

"The other night I was lying next to my H and we were looking at each other. I saw love and felt love for and from my H. Yet I began to cry. The reason I began to cry was that I began to allow myself to go there."

You compared, ruined what was in front of you...what was real...and gave yourself feelings of sadness, anger, fear, frustration, jealousy...your choice to compare right now to what if or the past, stabbed yourself. Had you cried from true grieving, "DH, I feel very loved and full of love for you right now. I automatically went to you and OW, in my head, as if to rob myself from this moment. I think it's because I robbed another woman of her husband, and now I believe I know her pain intimately. I think I'm punishing myself."

"When my H asked me why the tears I tried to be as honest as I could without trying to hurt his feelings."

You emotionally manage yourself and your H. God only gave you domain over your own. To manage his is abusive. Speaking your thoughts, feelings and beliefs honestly do NOT hurt his feelings. Telling him he is the CAUSE of what is yours is abusive. Acting like you are the cause of his, is also.

"I didn't react toward him with anger...just the truth that I love him so deeply and that it hurts to think about his heart being open to her in that way. He didn't get mad just seemed sad that I would compare the two."

You chose to compare. Destructive choice. See why he isn't responsible for your feelings? You got them because you chose to compare yourself. You did that.

"There is some transference going on here I think. I think wow...I had those feelings toward him when he was someone else's husband. What does that say about me? I was selfish yes and uncaring yes and deceitful yes and a bunch of other things too."

I think this is you seeing how much you salve and wound yourself, manage your emotions through fantasy, just like a drug. Instead of having real information about the present, the now...you go anywhere else, behind your own back.

"I think about the amends we both have made toward my H's first wife. I think about the forgiveness that has been offered to both of us from her and then I think about how she has forgiven me and if she can forgive me then shouldn't I work harder to forgive the FOW?"

Why? Has OW done the work?

Let go which isn't yours...you're in turmoil over where your control ends...ends where self does. Your self is wide enough...whole and complete. Stop stretching it...it snaps back. Respect your H...he is as capable as you are of all things...same domain...power and limit. Respect more, stay present and then tell me what your emotions really are. Stop manufacturing them...'k?

LA

thank you for posting this LA!!! After adding to my thread I was "browsing" and noticed this.. exactly what I needed. Thank you again..

LA,

Ughhhhhhhhh I just lost my post midway through. I have to do some other stuff today and hopefully will have time to repost later today. You gave me a lot to think about and I just wanted to say I really appreciate it and am working hard to think through and relate back my feelings.

Will try to get repost up later today....know I am indeed very thoughtfully considering what you say my soul sister and your points are thought provoking and right on as usual.

Talk to you soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's no rush, JJ...and remember, copy your post before hitting "Continue" or "Submit"...I do it every time, now...good habit for me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And Suther...feel free to do this exercise...I know you're brave enough...you are amazingly courageous.

LA

LA...just wanted to let you know...

...I am finding some resistance from within to work, individually and without judgement, on what I initially considered 'undesirable' traits in others...

...however, what I am NOW preparead to ACCEPT is that, if in fact I have a village in me, like all typical villages, it contains all types of villagers... and, that yes, even if I want to play 'favourites', I now do recognize that these villagers, as a GROUP, have every right to be in the village and to be heard....

....it's a process...

... I am now warming up to the idea of HEARING them.... not quite yet there....

...and anyway....I have hit a snarl in my BS status.... more details are available on the TKO thread..... but it seems the sexless state of a BS is hitting me hard these days.....as I only have SEX on my mind! ...and making it hard to concentrate on giving a 'voice' to my villagers.... but I have not forgotten them...

BTW...LA....can I read this thread beyond page 4? ...or is there information I should not read unless I am following the steps...

...Just to remind you.... I am at the step where... I need to hear what these villagers want to say to me, since I basically have denied their existance in my village and therefore have never been given a right to speak.....

...I think feeling some sympathy for these undesired villagers of mine is a good sign..don't you think?

LA,

Okay this is the third attempt at this post. I tried again last week but then we had a power surge and my computer went onto auto battery backup and because my H didn't know I was working on a post (it was minimized) he had to restart my computer and I lost the second post I worked on after losing the first. Ugggggggghh I was frustrated and then I decided maybe I should just give it some time...like God was sending me a message that maybe I needed to take some time to sit with my thoughts for awhile.

Then I had to have some medical testing done...a 24 hour heart monitor and some thyroid blood work done. Results came back today and I am fine. My heart rate has been considerably elevated and some other issues about why I am not gaining any of the weight back that I lost as a result of the infidelity diet...I lost 17 pounds over the course of about 6 weeks in early June and into July. I didn't really need to lose any weight and now that things are stabilized I should be gaining some as I am eating plenty but I haven't been able to gain one pound back and my weight is too low. Can I just say off the cuff and not sound disrespectful to say that it is just as rude for people to make disparaging remarks about people when they lose weight then when they gain weight. People don't say. "Gee have you put on weight?" So why do they say things like you look skeletal...it is just as rude as telling someone they are fat...rude. Okay off my soapbox. I am grateful that mine and others prayers were answered as there isn't anything medically wrong with me other than the anxiety/panic that isn't new. Yes, this is a problem but it isn't life threatening and I am getting help for this. Again goes back to overmedicating and my desire to disconnect which we know didn't work because I never could escape my feeling really anyway. I did honestly talk to my doctor about that I felt I was overmedicating so that is a good step so I am not doing it all on my own and getting some medical help with this.

Okay now on to the questions you asked me.

Trace it back...the sadness. I think the sadness is about my mom dying and the fear of permanent loss. I think my sadness is about fear in my marriage that it too could be a permanent loss. That my mo is to run. I didn't run so maybe it has to do with a hidden expectation that this is what I have thought I should do to protect myself from further hurt. It didn't work...running away or withdrawing...just led to further resentment toward myself.

The realization that I felt that my mom abandoned me when she died. Like this is really rational. She didn't leave me by her choice...she died. It broke me so much that I closed myself bit by bit from my H out of fear that he could leave me and that I could feel that permanent loss again. It was a DJ to think that he would leave me. We were both operating out of fear of being left. What a difference it makes to realize that it is a choice. I choose to stay married to him because I love him. He chooses to stay with me because he loves me. We are not sticking it out...we are choosing to stay together...which is a BIG difference. At least it is for me. I understand now that we can only control ourselves. I cannot stop my H from leaving me if that is what he chooses. I don't have to be afraid about it anymore. I want to stay married to him. His actions match his words that he wants to stay with me so I can stop projecting what I think could happen and focus on what is happening right now. We are choosing to stay because we want to be married to each other. Staying or going is a choice we make not something that I am choosing out of fear of being left or leaving but out of love.

Good catch soul sister. I was dwelling and I wasn't honestly communicating with my H about this. I finally opened up and said I am struggling to forgive the FOW. He said you don't have to forgive her and you can choose to be at angry and upset with her for as long as you need to be and with me too if you need to. I thought he would be mad at me because it isn't very Christian like not to forgive her or at least that is what I thought. But since I don't hate her...I just feel mad and I still don't trust her as far as I could throw her. H says all legitimate feelings for me. She hurt me and so did he. They lied, cheated, betrayed my trust, so of it is natural for me to never feel the need to trust her ever. She isn't a part of our family… never was never will be. I mentioned the idea to H about what you said about giving her too much rent in my mind. He said he agreed but also said he understood and told me to take as much time as I need to process my feelings and not beat myself up for not feeling forgiving or kindness toward her. It isn’t my job to fix her life or the mess that she created in her life. It is mine and my H’s job to focus and work on the issues in our M that allowed us to get to the place where this happened.

It is still hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that it took his A to wake me up. It broke me in a way that I haven’t really ever experienced but when I look at all the blessing that have come as a result of the devastation I see that I now have God in my life and I don’t know if that would have happened if I hadn’t felt like I wanted to die. To be so devastated that I realized that I needed to totally surrender to Him and in that total surrender I saw how much God really loves me…all of us. How He carried me when I felt I couldn’t make it one more day. How he gives me strength everyday to face what I am most afraid of and when I quiet myself and really listen to what He says to me I find peace.

I am grateful that my H has embraced a new R with God too because it changed the entire dynamic of our life in many many ways for which we are truly blessed. To deeply understand the concept of how much God loved us that He was willing to sacrifice that which He loved the most…his own child so that we can all be forgiven. To move from the head to the heart in this belief…to move from an intellectual R with God to an emotional one was something that I needed for the last 20 years and maybe I had to be this broken to finally go down on my knees and accept that I cannot do this alone anymore.

Yes, I see what you are saying here. I thought if I could control others I could protect myself…but I never could control anyone other than myself now could I? And yes… fear does arise with the knowledge that anything can happen at any time….like my mom dying. I wasn’t prepared for that anymore than I was prepared for what happened in my M. I didn’t cause either of these things to happen nor could I control the outcome of what would happen only how I choose to deal with those outcomes. I give myself permission to feel sad… losing someone you love is sad. It is okay to grieve in whatever timeline it takes. I am never going to stop loving or missing my mom. Yes, the pain will lessen with time. I don’t have that ache every morning when I wake about that I did when my mom first died. Like it took my breath away and each morning for a moment I would have to realize that it wasn’t a dream and yes she was really gone…just like it is a process to grieve for the blind trust that I had in my M. I can grieve that but it doesn’t define what the rest of my M will look like…that is still a choice. I can choose to dwell or I can choose to allow myself a certain amount of sadness and then move past that sadness each day and focus on the things that are better. It is hard for me when my H says that as horrible as the A was it brought us closer than we have even been…more honest…more caring…more willing to really see the other person and realize all that we are to each other. I am going to ask him to rephrase the language there because it hurts when he says in a way it was a blessing. The A wasn’t a blessing. The work of the recovery and the love we have has nothing to do with the FOW at all…it was always there. She didn’t make me love him more or make him love me more. The realization of what we could have lost if we had made the choice to leave and not fight for our M is what is the blessing not the A. The A was devastating and I will not call it a blessing.

In addition it really made me look at my own A and the work that I hadn’t done to really repent for my own actions. I was still justifying and foggy. I am not anymore. I learned that from my own devastation that I had not apologized to the people I hurt with the sincerity that I had with the perspective I gained from becoming the BS. It has brought a closer and deeper R for me with my H’s XW. I know many will not understand this but she is family to me. We all share in the raising of a child and I know now what I did to her and am able to convey a level of remorse that I couldn’t because I myself didn’t understand it until now. So since I cannot change what happened in the past I can only do what I can to offer my genuine forgiveness to her and she sees this and that has changed the dynamic of my R with her which has been good. My ss said to me a few days ago that he was so grateful that his mom had me for a friend. He is such a good kid. He has had to endure too much recently yet his wisdom is beyond my comprehension sometimes. I never knew how much it would mean to him for his mom and I to have a closer R. We have always been friendly but it is just a different level of family now.

Like you said…I thought I had settled certain things within myself only to find that in fact they aren’t settled and I will continue to work through this stage of my recovery.

LA I am really working on putting this into practice which I why I told my H how I was feeling. It was amazing the change that happened when he said to me you have every right to feel the way you do…the permission to be mad about the A in and of itself has allowed me peace of mind and the ability to stop myself from thinking about it so much. Like being validated for my hurt allows me to heal. Wow…the radical honesty thing is really working out for me…not doing it in a DJ way but just being honest and understanding that being honest and then validated allows me to grow and feel more okay.


Got it sister…she isn’t gonna control me anymore. I am NOT giving my power to her anymore. Why she did what she did has nothing to do with me that is her stuff not mine. And yes again…I feel a million times sorry about what I did after feeling what it feels like to be on the other end of it. You are right those feelings are about me… like disappointment in myself and judgment of myself because I should have known better so yes it is easier to transfer my anger at self on her. My actions from my past don’t have to define me now. I can choose to never do that again and that has nothing to do with her. It has to do with me.

Yes, I think I thought the struggle wouldn’t continue but when you rescript it from struggle to growth then in fact I can relax…emotional management….hmmmm never thought of it that way but yes, I think I was trying to manage my emotions rather than just accepting them for what they are not good or bad just emotions…not to be cured or controlled but to be experienced and accepted as a part of the whole of me.

Yep… but now I see it isn’t my concern about whether or not she does or doesn’t. She isn’t a part of my life so I don’t need to worry about how she feels. I feel remorse for my actions and that is the only person’s remorse I have any control over. So she can do whatever she chooses because it has nothing to do with me…right?

Right on again…this was his choice and not mine. He made a mistake but that doesn’t define who he is. It isn’t so much about what he chose to do but rather about what he is choosing to do now. I respect and admire what he is doing now so no need to look at it as one more piece of crap to deal with. Not my crap to deal with…I have my own issues there to deal with and they aren’t his to deal with as he has no control over my overmedicating with prescription meds. Any more than I have any responsibility over his issues with this. There are each are own separate issues. We can choose to help each other make better choices and support each other’s decisions but we cannot control each other choices…those are our own. I get it.
So true and same holds true for me too. Thanks for saying that. We medicate our feelings because we they scare us. When we deal with the fear the need to medicate changes.


I see this now… I react from my own fear so I don’t know why it was hard for me to see this in him. Makes total sense in the totality of it.

Yes…true again. Mothering him…hmmm never thought of that but sadly yes which is a huge DJ to both of us because it sets us up in a parent child R and not an equal partnership. I don’t want to parent him…. I want to be his wife. I also see that I learned this behavior... to be a rescuer…a caretake….because I was taught to believe that I couldn’t take care of myself or make good decision for me so I then acted that role in my own M. Good insight from you and the whole shame based identity.

Okay…I am getting this now. Not so easy to look at this one. I have felt empty too. But we are not to fill up someone else’s emptiness… we fill up our own and then we share ourselves. I must relinquish the rescuer role that I lived and learned. Reteach myself again and again….stop this it isn’t healthy. Make different self talk. Own what is mine…hold other accountable for what is theirs.


I have a long way to go still here…self sabotage… still feel shame and remorse and regret. I need IC to get through this stuff. I need to work this out. It is going to be a process. I am trying to think about the things I say to myself and why I feel the need to punish. Maybe I haven’t forgiven myself completely. I wonder if this is why it makes me feel sad when I see my H struggling with forgiving himself because it hurts because deep down I haven’t forgiven myself either and his pain triggers my pain. Just a thought.

Nope...and it isn't my job to get her to do it. I am DONE with beating myself up over not feeling forgiveness toward her...she hasn't asked my forgiveness so it isn't something I am compelled by God to do. If she was to have some kind of spiritual revelation and do the work and asks then I might be required by God to forgive her but she hasn't so it isn't my stuff ANYMORE with her. I am DONE with struggling with this aspect.

Okay...I am going to really work on this. Thank you again LA for knowing how to get to the heart of the matter. It is a really awesome skill you have. You know how much I need you.

Luna,

Sympathy for our villagers...I'm not sure...yes, because of disowning them for so long, that seems to be a first step in re-acquaintance, towards reunion...

I realize this is very difficult for you...so whatever way you can come to them is yours. No good or bad involved in that; no judgment.

As for reading past page four...I know I would be easily affected by others' discoveries, might even take them as my own...I don't know about you. It's up to you. Might be the very thing to do, to see others owning all of their villagers...what they experience...which could speak to your fear, or feelings of exclusion...let God guide you.

I don't think there's a time limit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll look in on your posts in TKO...

LA

JJ,

"Trace it back...the sadness. I think the sadness is about my mom dying and the fear of permanent loss. I think my sadness is about fear in my marriage that it too could be a permanent loss. That my mo is to run. I didn't run so maybe it has to do with a hidden expectation that this is what I have thought I should do to protect myself from further hurt. It didn't work...running away or withdrawing...just led to further resentment toward myself."

I believe what we mourn is surprising...we even mourn invalid beliefs...like the belief that we can run away...when we realize we cannot, takes a bit of mourning...we believed in it so long, didn't we? I've experienced sadness for life not being designed as I thought it should be...which mourning helped me to see it was far beyond my imagining...sadness can get us to free.

Permanent loss...is that in God's design?

I know I experienced a lot of grieving time for what wasn't...lived in the future where no human can really live...and mourned what had not occurred or passed...

I think I did that because I didn't know how to mourn real losses...like a signal that said...no, I have real losses, and until I mourn them distinctly, I won't get to the acceptance, the utter acceptance I craved. Greatly affected my life.

Looking at the weight issue...how you experienced what others say as cutting, hurtful...if you knew when others spoke, they were stating their fear, not your appearance...how would it feel? Not as a judgment that you aren't adequate, but of their own fear of loss...would that change emotions inside of you?

Could be overlap for me, but continue on with your realization of your fears...and how reality is very different from them...as it was with your birth..."What a difference it makes to realize that it is a choice. I choose to stay married to him because I love him. He chooses to stay with me because he loves me."

May I modify two of those sentences slightly?

"What a difference it makes to realize that it is a choice. I choose to stay married to him because I choose to love him. He chooses to stay with me because he chooses to love me."

Does that lessen or increase your fear?

"Staying or going is a choice we make not something that I am choosing out of fear of being left or leaving but out of love." Great statement, great truth...and it was true all along.

Big kudos from me on opening up to your H. I don't think you need them...I think hearing what he had to say was reward in and of itself...and really highlighted your own DJing mind very well. What do you think?


"I thought he would be mad at me because it isn't very Christian like not to forgive her or at least that is what I thought. But since I don't hate her"

Ahhh...does that mean you do not allow yourself to feel hate? Why would it be in our design if it didn't signal something? What if it was necessary to get to see inside yourself that you don't hate OW, you really, truly, deeply hate her actions? Her choices? Their effect on your life? Would that be Christian?

"...I just feel mad and I still don't trust her as far as I could throw her. H says all legitimate feelings for me. She hurt me and so did he. They lied, cheated, betrayed my trust, so of it is natural for me to never feel the need to trust her ever. She isn't a part of our family… never was never will be. I mentioned the idea to H about what you said about giving her too much rent in my mind. He said he agreed but also said he understood and told me to take as much time as I need to process my feelings and not beat myself up for not feeling forgiving or kindness toward her. It isn’t my job to fix her life or the mess that she created in her life. It is mine and my H’s job to focus and work on the issues in our M that allowed us to get to the place where this happened."

Yes, yes, yes...and right on...way to go...can you do me a favor? Speak of OW in the past tense, not the present, 'k? Oh, and if you speak of her, use her last name, which isn't yours, which aptly describes she is not part of your life.

We're on the same page about it taking this to awake us...and I wanted to add, it didn't take me wanting to die...I had wanted to for decades...and it took this to break me of my wanting to die. And yes, only through that complete surrender, did I, too, return to God authentically. And I think that was self assertion...true self's craving...bringing down my own self-image so that I could be intimate with God, and be intimate with others.

Btw, this is called choosing your results. Though we have no control over response, we choose our own results from anything arising from our results. This is the final step of ownership and responsibility. Pretty darn big, I think.

More on grieving...you identified what you're grieving, your mom...part of the process is to identify, be aware of, when you feel the sadness swell, what about your mom you are grieving...think of it as a complicated loss...the wholeness of humans is complex...and we heal more the more we trace what each swelling of sadness tells us...

I'll use my own mother, for remembrance...I grieved my loss of her left upper arm...because that is where I could nestle next to her on the couch...which cool and cosy, fear reducing, brimmed with acceptance and companionship. I grieve her laughter, which said I could be delighting, and her reaching for me...and in grieving these particulars, I come more deeply to hear self say...these are the symbols in my life...themes which have troubled me, where I see rejection when I am not reached for; devastation when I am not delighting; and my craving for safe harbor in humans, when it was really my presence, existing side by side, which gave me meaning.

Find your symbols to grieve all the way through...to heal the most what is in you that you didn't even know was wounded...so you can get to where her death is not loss...only a reflection of what is in yourself...which is how we really do live on in others and benefit them, beyond our physical death...a soul legacy.

"I can choose to dwell or I can choose to allow myself a certain amount of sadness and then move past that sadness each day and focus on the things that are better."

This isn't dwelling, this grieving I'm describing...it is allowing yourself all of your sadness, as it arises, to see what you need to grieve to grow from...and when your focus remains on yourself, you can hear it better...and as the analogy to personally recoverying from the A, please use this also...to grieve fully, with your goal as growth, understanding...to see in yourself what you haven't seen...all of you...without judgment...not better, not worse...what was and what is...distinguishing how you experienced life pre-A, where the false beliefs resided (blind trust), where they came from, and if there are any other hangers on near that false one, which are hiding because they are also untrue.

"I am going to ask him to rephrase the language there because it hurts when he says in a way it was a blessing."

To him, that's what it is...would you consider it hurts inside of you because you believe what he believes...and you're rejecting this belief? He can call it that because it is to him...and if he's wrapping it around you or the marriage, then ask for him not to do that..."This is such a blessing for us and our marriage" because that's his belief stated as the truth, not his own. Know the difference here...because the pre-A marriage had a union of one in your mind...no separate stuff, and losing that new perspective, that he can believe what he believes (because he does) is not fact or the truth...it's his. State how you feel and know WHY you feel pain with that word. If it's you reaching into what isn't yours, then that's where the pain is coming from...inside you.

You can say, "Ouch...I heard that as <blank>" which is sharing and owning...not asking someone else to believe something different, see it your way, or caretake your pain...or even asking him to believe whatever he does and NOT share it...can you see this process we go through? When we take what isn't ours?

"The A was devastating and I will not call it a blessing."

This is yours and you do not have to...know this as your own valid belief...so you can accept his as valid for him, 'k?

There's a lot of fear in believing this about humans...separate and equal...because in marriage, being of like mind, like beliefs, gives false security...and you want real stuff now, don't you? Ironically, the very independence that God designed within us through our limits and power, we run away from...seeking to merge with someone else, complete them and them complete us...to form a more perfect being...sacrificing respect, reality and the choice to love...can you see the A as running away from this enmeshment? Running to another, with a clean slate, to break it, not understanding it at all...

Like a child trying to cut a hole out of her dress so it will go away?

(And here's where I divulge my very private belief that this is what God was saying when he commanded "suffer the children to come unto me" because we are adults who do this, yet we are children when we run from or to, aren't we?)

Would you consider celebrating that your beliefs are valid and yours, by respecting his are, too?

There is no safety in fantasy...this one being of like mind is a silent, destructive one within our marriages.

I get that H's xW is family...because I believe in people, not positions, not roles...the more time you spend with people, the more they become our family, those who populate our lives...and they are dear, they have place and presence...which is why we guard our boundaries about who comes in, who we dwell with, and who we don't. I didn't get that until I became a BS...the potency of human presence in my life...

"Yep… but now I see it isn’t my concern about whether or not she does or doesn’t. She isn’t a part of my life so I don’t need to worry about how she feels. I feel remorse for my actions and that is the only person’s remorse I have any control over. So she can do whatever she chooses because it has nothing to do with me…right?"

Yes...and it also signals you that you have a knee-jerk reaction to wanting to control...even in your head, your emotions...which is the opposite of accept. Gradually, you will live from knowing what you cannot control...which is acceptance, responsibility, freedom and love...you'll live abundantly...know your signals...they are neutral...they are...because self helps you all the time with these...and when you feel that urge, look at it for what it's telling you...not judging it for jerking, 'k?

"Okay…I am getting this now. Not so easy to look at this one. I have felt empty too. But we are not to fill up someone else’s emptiness… we fill up our own and then we share ourselves. I must relinquish the rescuer role that I lived and learned. Reteach myself again and again….stop this it isn’t healthy. Make different self talk. Own what is mine…hold other accountable for what is theirs."

Reteaching, retraining...your brain has only acted on what it THOUGHT you wanted...conditioned to control, cause, cure, rescue, caretakeovering (different from caretaking...I just invented that for you, do you like it?)...so each time your thoughts go to these, catch yourself and say, "I don't want that." Can you see how your obsession with anger at OW can help you in a thousand ways?

All connected within yourself, JJ...each helps you with the other...to truly you know you are not defective, wrong, bad...or good...you never were...discovery is the biggest part of recovery...has no control in it...which is why you're on a journey to self, within your marriage, and that is the most exciting part of thriving...you're doing this together.

My DH said this morning..."We are on the way to our goals together." I said, "Yes, honey, we are." And then he said..."You wrote that to me. I pulled it out of the box." (His Christmas gift...little slips of paper inside a wooden box.)

God reminds us of what we already knew...when we need it, if we're brave enough to pass it on.

Hope that helps you, too.

This is the mother-killing perspective I hold...we are in this together (which is what my DH said to me last year, so I just regurgitated, huh?)...side by side...no parenting allowed, because that cuts off my joy in respecting him. Think of your own antidote to keep your focus on you, not directing others' lives. Free yourself.

(And it's REALLY hard to do when you are a mother of small children...LOL)

"Maybe I haven’t forgiven myself completely. I wonder if this is why it makes me feel sad when I see my H struggling with forgiving himself because it hurts because deep down I haven’t forgiven myself either and his pain triggers my pain. Just a thought." What a GREAT thought.

Yes,yesyesyesyes...you're really getting projection now...how it is of aid to us when we are aware of it...helps with information to us and about us from within...and how destructive it is when we are NOT aware of it...yesyesyesyes!

You are blessing to me...thank you for being here, being brave and honest. And for taking what others would have seen as condenmation, a passionate judgment, as I truly intended...thank you very much. Another thing to mourn...we have a deep desire for smooth waters...no pain...which is a signal, too...and when we feel blasted and riled, we resist from our very desire for smooth waters...bring out our arsenal calling it bad, wrong--which shows we cannot separate from that which we see as wrong and being wrong...you really see and know this difference, JJ. You knew I wasn't saying you were wrong...when I pointed out where you were being destructive to yourself and others...what valor. Valor of self, JJ. Your presence changes my life.

LA

LA,



I am so grateful that God brought us together at this time in our self recoveries and discoveries. How could I see what you to me as condemnation when it helps me so much to go deeper into my self and my thinking and bring forth authentic growth. Your words are authentic and heartfelt...never a stab...just questions and statements spoken with care. I see that...I see you.

Nope...it isn't God's plan. Good for me to rethink that. Permanent loss is about my fear... signals me to trust God more and know unconditionally that He will never let me down. ( I realize I am using the word never here, but in this case I think it is okay because He is God... therefore not human and therefore afforded the gift of the words always and never. His unconditional love and acceptance of us is such a gracious gift...and one He gives us with such a pureness of heart. Does He want us to love ourselves? Yes, and it isn't selfish...or an egocentric kind of self love but one of acceptance and forgiveness.

Ahhhhhhhhh...yes soul sister the future and trying to live in it and plan our behaviors and mourn that which hasn't happened. We do not know what will happen. Future thinking mindset is about trying to control for me and maybe for you too. I cannot plan emotionally for something might happen. I can focus on today. Today my choice is this. Tomorrow I don't know what my choices will be because I don't know what tomorrow is yet so it is a huge waste of my time and energy trying to emotionally manage my future. S

Same goes for the past. I cannot change what happened in the past. I can't go back in time. I can only see it for what it was. I choose to know what happened for what it was and that what any of it was doesn't define me anymore. My choices then were just that choices. The choices of others were just that choices. I can own what is mine and I get to do what I want about how I feel about it. I don't have to stay stuck there. It's over. Dwelling and grieving... very different as grieving is a process that moves us forward and dwelling can keep us stuck. What do you think?

Wow... huge insight and growth to look at it this way. Not healthy self care to not accept that other people might be caring about me instead of judging. Loss...me as a loss to them. Wasn't thinking about that at all. It doesn't matter really whether they are caring or judging only matters what I tell myself. If I choose to see it as caring and not judging then it doesn't cut. Own what is mine...my feelings about the weight loss...my fears etc. Not trying to control other's actions, words, feelings, etc. Those are theirs...not mine. Relinquishing control of what was not mine to control anyway. Important point for me LA...thank you.

It lessens my fear...I would have thought it might increase it but then that would be about controlling love and accepting as a choice to love and a choice to be loved is very different.

Choosing to love is powerful. It is my choice therefore I have power not control over someone else or trying to control self but power to make my choices. Having power of self choices reduces fear. Understanding that what I chose yesterday was yesterday's choice...what I choose today is today's choice and not trying to deduce what I will choose tomorrow is reclaiming power over my choices and understanding they are mine to make and not dependent on others.

Hating behavior not person...good to see that. Back to shame based. Separate the behavior from the person. The sin from the sinner. God hates sin... and he is just in doing so. If we are to try to act in the way he commands us to then it is okay to hate the behavior. So okay I hate the sin...not the sinner and it's okay.

Okay I will now name FOW. I cannot use her married name because her married name is the definition for my DD's name. No can do on that. I choose not to associate my DD name with her. So I will use a variation of her maiden name. Her name from now on will be Hassle. Okay?

Yeah...it's huge. Choosing our results...as ownership. I choose to come back to God...result is an authentic relationship with Him. I choose to love my H and choose our M. Results...many.

My mom had a comfortable green rocking chair (not wooden but like an easy chair that rocks) for most of my life. She rocked me in that chair when I was a baby and she rocked me in that chair when I was a teenager and even into my twenties. Yes, I sat in the rocking chair as a big girl and let my mama rock me. It felt good. It felt safe. I miss being rocked in that chair. I miss feeling the way I felt in that chair. So I grieve the chair and all it represents. I can rock my own daughter in a chair. Not the green chair because it is gone but I can rock her.

I miss the spirit and love of Christmas my mom had. I have chosen to continue that by creating a very special Christmas for my family each year. This keeps her in me. When I wrap a beautiful package the way she did...she is with me in the details. I see this. Even though she isn't physically here with me she is in my heart and therefore will always be with me. No one can take that away from me.

Gotch...makes sense and can be done without DJing or owning that which isn't mine. The results of the recovery from the A are a blessing but the A was NOT a blessing and I can choose to say that and accept that my H can word it his way from his belief which is different but still okay. If he feels that way it is his feeling not mine and I don't have to feel the same as him...even if the end results is that we have a better M. We have a better M because of the recovery work not because of the A...that is my belief.


Thank you for seeing and understanding this.


careovertaking...yep good one because it is what I was doing. I can say...that isn't what I want. Yes, I can also see how my anger toward Hassle can help me too because it is a signal about the way I am thinking and will allow me to ask myself about other thinking as well.

This made me laugh...and so true about God and what we already know and passing it on.

We are coworkers. Neither of us are the manager or the subordinate. We have equal job descriptions. No one is making more or less. We both work side by side. No one is directing. We can share strategies that have helped us be more effective in our job but we cannot insist that our coworker does it our way since we aren't the manager.


I am thinking a lot about projection...how we project so much about others onto ourselves and how we aren't the other person so we needn't project. We need to accept our awareness of this because projection is self destructive.


I mentioned before that my H had called Hassle's STBX a couple of months ago to sincerely apologize to him for his actions. Hassle's H asked my H if he could be his friend. My H at that time felt he should. He speaks to him on the phone and goes to coffee with him on occasion and they email etc. My H set some boundaries up with him that included NO discussion of Hassle period as Hassle isn't a part of our lives anymore. Hassle's H has broken those boundaries several times and when he does my H doesn't reply to those emails etc. He reviewed his boundary and he seemed to get it.

I was unclear exactly how I felt about this friendship initially but since it wasn't my choice to make I just stepped back and watched to see what happened. Pretty quickly my H realized that he could not give him as much as he needed in a friend and told him again certain things just weren't going to happen....like having our kids play with theirs because my boundary is that I never want my kids in the presence of Hassle ever again and if her kids are there it is possible that they might see her. Although I cannot predict the future I do know that isn't a risk I am willing to take. My kids are never to be around her again period. My H respects this boundary of mine. Hubble is never around when my H spends time with him nor are their kids.

I noticed that my H has sort of pulled away from Hassle's STBX more and more. He confided in me sometime ago that this man has a SA. He has talked openly and honestly to my H about it and my H has listened. He encourage him to share this with his therapist etc. but didn't advise him any further as my H knows this isn't his addiction or problem to fix.

However a couple of nights ago my H asked me if I knew what a keyholder was. I said no and he showed me online what it is and that STBX wanted to get this set-up which is basically a chastity belt for a man that has a key that is held onto by someone else. He then explained to me that this man asked my H to be his keyholder. I had to exhibit huge restraint not to interrupt my H while he was telling me ( I wanted to shout no way no way you are doing that but I didn't) and when he told me that he agreed to do it I was dismayed.

He went on to tell me that it took him less then 30 minutes to change his mind and he called and told him no way could he do that. He went as far as to say that it in his mind would be committing an A with him. The other man seemed baffled. He told my H we are both men here it's not like that. My H said...sorry it is "like that" because it would mean that he was sharing an intimate and sexual experience with someone other than me and he absolutely couldn't do that. The friend said he guessed he could understand and that he would respect that my H wants no part of that.

I thanked my H for sharing that with me and told him I respected his choice not to do it because in fact I would have absolutely seen it as another A in a sense. I told H that I was pleased that he was noticing what boundaries are healthy in a M.

I asked my H if he was choosing to have a friendship with him because he genuinely liked him and wanted him as a friend or if he was choosing it perhaps out of a sense of obligation to make certain amends. He said he thought a little of both. I see it as his choice as to whether he wants to be friends with him not my choice.

My choice is in whether I want to be friends with him and if so to what extent. My choice today is to be friendly toward him but to retain a boundary that is respectful to myself and my feelings about him as they trigger feelings about Hubble that I don't wish to spend time thinking about.

So give it to me straight...what do you think about how I am choosing to handle this? How my H is choosing to handle this?

** edited to add that Hassle's STBX's SA doesn't involve other women or men. It involves some porn and hand soloing about 5-6 times a day. Just thought I should make it clear.