LA,(warning long)

I have been thinking about you a lot too! I have been meaning to congratulate you on your new grandbaby...Phoenix (love that name BTW)it seems God sends us someone new and profound to love when we lose someone that we love so much... so entwined our love is.

I think maybe I have the holiday blues... what my therapist said make sense... I think you'll get this too... We were talking about shame and how long I have felt it. You so understand the struggle to change the belief of thinking we have to earn love... that we don't just get to be loved. Anyway in IC we were talking about my SS who is fast approaching becoming a teenager... okay technically he only has a couple of months before he is officially a teenager but he has been one already in behaviors etc. this year. That got us on the subject of you know how everything seems so hard when you are a teenager and then when you're our age it seems like "if only" my life was THAT complicated (tongue in cheek) and my therapist explained that when we are teens we have the skill set and life experiences of a teen so the life then does seem THAT complicated. Now as we have grown up some we have more skills then we did then (although sometimes it doesn't seem like it but we do) so teenage problems seem wistful and so much easier than our own and they would be if we were living as teenagers right now with our life experience to guide us.

So she was talking to me about how in some ways I arrested my development the last six years while I have used meds to cope with my life rather than developing the as many skills as I probably would have had I dealt with instead of medicated my feelings. Well I feel depressed. A bit more about that in a minute... but back to the shame and how long I have felt it. My IC explained to me that I have tried to be perfect to earn love and doing that is exhausting. So my pattern has been try to be perfect and then when it becomes overwhelming, because I can't do it all then I act out. Child me learned that acting out also had its rewards. The reward of attention... oh they must really love me because I even when I am bad they still do. What I didn't realize is that I have for so long affirmed myself through others. Viewed myself through what others saw me as... if I was good in their eyes then I was good and if they said I was bad (I know strong language but the nonetheless the only real language I knew then) or making bad choices or really messing up my life then it must be true because I never really learned to affirm own self. To tell me that I was okay... that I could just be.

I realized this semester in school as I procrastinated doing assignments and then panicked at the thought of getting a "B" that I stayed up super late late writing a 20 page research paper that was supposed to be 5 pages and answering all four of the final questions instead of just the two needed... because I needed the points to get an "A". (My research paper BTW was about motivating the shame based student... hmmm) the "A" I think I have to have. I preach and preach to my students that it doesn't matter if they get an A or a B as long as they learned something and made growth. Seems I hold myself to a higher standard. What would it mean if I got a B. I mean it isn't like I haven't ever gotten one... I have. Yep, I worry what my parents will think... for crying out loud I am 38 years old and I am still worried about bringing home a bad report card. If I am an A student then I will be worthy of the $$$ that my parents gave me last year for Christmas... $$$ money that I felt couldn't be spent on anything other than investments. If I didn't spend it right then I worry I'll be judged for that to as irresponsible.

And I have been irresponsible with $$$. I have a nice big fat balance on my credit card. This isn't the first time that I have gotten myself in debt either. I conviently haven't told my folks that I am in debt again either. They were pretty disappointed the first time it happened and were really proud of me for paying it all off and now if they knew I messed up again.... ugghhh they will be not like it at all. So I don't tell them. I don't need their help to pay it off... I don't want their help either...is that wrong of me to not tell them? Is it really their business? Or is my shame about it what keeps me from telling them? Shame is about secrets... and I don't even want to tell them anything about getting off the meds because they might lovingly sabotage me. They are pro medication. It's not that I am so against meds just for me and the way that I was... have used them... irresponsibly... to try to NOT feel.

The last two Saturdays I have spent with the FOO. The first was at my sister house. Her DD turned one. She had invited a gazillion of her friends from her mothers group. Neither my H nor my SS wanted to go to that so I knew it was just going to be my DD7 and me driving in the rain 2 hours to go. I didn't really want to go because the week between the 2 Saturdays was when I was cramming to get all my school work done. We were late... which was totally my fault for not watching time. Then we hadn't been there 5 minutes before my DD started crying. It took me until the ride home to find out what it was about and it took me almost half an hour to get her calmed down... her pleading with me to go home. Then I finally get her calmed down and my stepmom said to me why is DD pissed at your dad? I said good grief she isn't pissed at him... what would make you say that. Her response was... well she is ignoring him. I said it isn't personal... she is just overwhelmed because there are so many people here. (I didn't even know what was really wrong with her because she wouldn't tell me until we were in the car on the way home.

Later my dad cornered me and I got the guilt trip about how he never sees me and he feels cut out of my life. I don't know what to say so I just cry. The truth which I don't tell him is that I hate being caught in the middle between my H and my parents. I wish their R was different but it isn't. There is fault on both ends... and I feel like no matter what I choose I hurt someone's feelings. (Is this what it means when you derive your feelings of self worth from others and so when you are in a no win situation that really has nothing to do with you you still feel like it's your fault anyway.)

Then this Saturday was my parent’s second annual tree trimming party. They have been forced (because of selfish me and my selfish husband wanting to have Christmas at our house...they of course have always been invited... but because it isn't at their house and not ALL of my side of the family is there then it isn't what they want then it selfish of us because they can't have ALL of us every year for Christmas. My in-laws of course are local and used to host Christmas too and then we would go back and forth each year until one year my MIL had to have major surgery and asked me to host and it went so well that my MIL passed the Christmas hosting torch to me. My H and I both liked this idea because then even though it is a boatload of work don't have to drag our kids all over. I know it's selfish. It is hard enough though because my son has to go to his mom's too so he is always gone part of Christmas and so there is that to contend with too.) to host a separate party so that they can have all of us for Christmas which ultimately works out better for all my siblings anyway because all but one of us is married and has in-laws etc. who want to spend time with the grandkids too.

So a few days before my H starts dropping hints that he doesn't want to go. He only goes about half the time anyway so even though he had said he was going to go I had a good sense he was going to bail. A long time ago I told him to go if he was going to or not but stop saying he is only going for me etc. If he doesn't want to deal with my FOO fine don't...but don't play games with me to alleviate his guilt about not going because I don't care anymore if he goes or not. So he starts in Friday and just keeps going on and on about how he doesn't want to go but he doesn't want me to be upset with him and he'll go for me but I better know that that is the only reason he is going... FOR ME. I know he doesn't want to go and I told him again you don't have to go I am not going to mad if you don't go. To be perfectly honest I am used to this and I am never surprised when he doesn't go.

Last year he did go and it was a fiasco. My parents gave all the grandkids each a check for $200 and then gave my stepson a check for $50. They are filthy flippin' loaded so it wasn't about saving $$$. My SS was devastated and of course was shamed into feeling like a second class citizen. My H had every right to be pissed about it and I am not defending my parents on this one at ALL it is messed up. They did the same thing this year with the checks. My stepson who also didn't go because his dad didn't was given a check for less only this year he doesn't know because I am just giving it to him in cash in the same amount as was given to my DD and then depositing the check in his account so he doesn't know.

When my H didn't come my dad said... I thought he was going to work on having a better relationship with us (in my dad's defense my H did say he wanted to try to build a R with them but he hasn't done one thing toward doing it and he they don't make it easy either. They think he is selfish... he thinks they are snobby and selfish) I just said talk is cheap dad. I can't fix your R with him anymore than I can fix his R with you.

My dad thinks that I have been overtaken by my H's family and that they are somehow brainwashing me and I have NO family support because of course they couldn't possibly be supportive to me because he is their son.

Then they gave me a check for a big chunk of change not as much as last year but still a big chunk. They also gave my H a check. It was a nice amount but I guess he still thinks that they should give him whatever they give me even though he has no R with them really and the fact that they give him the same amount as they do all the other spouses doesn't matter to him. They give us kids (there are 6 of us) the same amount and then our spouses a check. I think what my H thinks is that they should make the check out to the couple instead of their kids... because that is probably what his parents would do except they don't ever give us $$$ as a gift. They give us gift certificates or whatever and they do spend the same amount on the wives as they do their sons. However they don't give gifts to their grandkids that they are on the outs with. So basically they do the same thing as my parents do in some ways it just seems easier to accept because A it isn't happening to our kids and B it isn't happening with $$$ but gifts. Is it really that different? I told my H that I would give him half the money my parents gave me for Christmas. My H said that he didn't expect me to do this but it would be great if I did... he is already telling me how he is going to spend it. Is this the right thing to do? I feel like it would be selfish not to but a part of me doesn't want to because I know he will spend it while I will save it for school.

We are in a marriage where we have joint debt and separate debt. I think this happens sometimes in second marriages...maybe just in some marriages first second whatever where couples have some joint and some separate $$$. Sometimes I wonder if my parents give us $$$ in our own names so that we have our own $$$... maybe like a safety net. Never thought about it that way but maybe they do it that way so in case we needed to we would have the resources to get out away. I kind of think maybe in the back of their minds in the enmeshment that maybe they use $$$ to reward and to punish but also as a means of freedom. They use to give us gifts. Really nice gifts and occasionally $$$ but the last two years they have given us large checks way exceeding any gift they ever gave us before other than the gift of paying for our education.

I wonder why now... why so much money. They said the reason that they decided to start giving us money like that is because when they were our age they could have really used that kind of money.

My FOO and $$$ always a slippery slope.

I really miss my mom. I miss her always at Christmas and it is one of the reasons I have tried to make a special Christmas for my own kids every year because she loved Christmas so much. I miss her so much sometimes. I am thinking about reading Motherless Daughters... I was looking at it at the bookstore the other day and it looked interesting.

LA... I apologize for going on and on... with you it just comes flooding out. Then I can cry... then I can let it out of me. I miss you LA... sometimes I write long posts to you and then save them or delete them. I don't know why I don't post them. I think maybe I am scared you might go away too.

I am going to redo some of the work again. I am constantly reminding myself to stop the negative self talk. Emotionally I am down... tired.

Why is FOO so hard? Why do I sabotage myself? Why does it seem like it takes me so long to really get the lesson?

I feel like I am hosting a big pity party for me and I am my own guest of honor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas to you.

Good Morning, LA...JJ...

LA, I was thinkint this morning regarding my SD and the main thing that I dislike in him is his ability to be dishonest or deceptive...

I can say that the reason that he does this it seems to me to protect his "imagine" with me...

Now, turning that around on myself...I have been dishonest or deceptive to protect my "imagine," not my real self...of course, because I'm thinking why would I have to protect self if I'm not being fake.

I was wondering if you could help me understand this...revisit it...being around my SD and the events that happened...i still haven't been able to bring myself to call...I'm very insecure with having the two, especially SD in my life...not so much my mom...

My Mother will be coming down by herself tomorrow and will here through Christmas...she Tmed me last night and let me know...MOF, FWH and I have changed our plans because of her visit and a few other things.

Wondering if this is a case of truely owning my little villagers...LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your SD's lies and deception used to hurt you for real...physically, mentally and emotionally.

Why wouldn't your inner child kick and scream as if then were now...and now, his lies and deceptions cannot hurt you...because you know his choices...adult to adult...are NOT about you.

It's your inner child, Rin, who's weeping, wanting, yearning...reliving. Stop and think...unless you choose to perceive his choices were about not spending time with you, sober when he was here...not getting to know his grandchildren was about them...then his lies and broken promises are about him.

Don't make them about you.

State what you have yearned for...and know it for yourself...we all seek a perfect caretaker...protector...that constant velvet hand to hold...children are told it exists...they want unconditional love...and they have it from God...and keep trying to pluck it out of other humans all their lives.

Your SD's and your mom's stuff are their own...what they will and won't do is NOT about you...that was the biggest lie you were taught as a child...and you are an adult. Your children cannot make you do, think, believe or feeling anything...they don't make you; you do.

Read a marvelous quote this yesterday I want to pass on...about rejection (fearing, experiencing, perceiving and believing rejection)...why can't others be who we want them to be? Do what we want them to do? You already know those answers...seat this in your center:

When I think: If I were acceptable, I wouldn't be rejected.

Then I remember...many people reject God...does that mean God sucks?

Re-align...breathe and know...

You don't react to others' abilities...you have a reaction to what they do...we all have the ability to deceive...for those who don't consciously lie well to others...they have the ability to self-deceive enough to believe they are telling truths...

Your SD and others choose to deceive...our half is to choose not to take their promises as THE TRUTH...rummage around and see if some of your anger is for the past, and another portion is for buying it, as you once did...buying into the deception. When you were a child, you didn't know you had a choice. You do now. You know you do. Respectful distrust. Reasonable. Human. Then check your pain and anger levels...lemme know.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're really great at flipping this...do you remember being deceptive...shoring up your self-image, thereby rejecting true self...and someone else bought into what you were peddling? You created deception from fear...of being rejected. Once you really get that rejection is about the other person...not you...then you'll let that created villager in you sleep, be a part of you, and not used. Keeping your own promises doesn't make you a good person...expresses you already are reliable.

((((((((Rin)))))))))

LA

LA,... Rin,

Why is this so hard to just accept? Why do I want from my parents what cannot be?

Wow... that hit me pretty hard because it is so true. God is awesome. I cannot go it alone and He has yet to let me down. I felt angry at God though when my mom died. Why do people we love have to die? I know someday we will be reunited but it still hurts when I want my mother's arms to hold me and rock me in that old green chair.

How do you get to the point where you stop wanting things that you know you can't have?

LA can you explain this more to me... I really want to understand this better...


I feel like maybe I was told that this wasn't okay... to be distrustful of those who I believe I think I am supposed to blindly trust... if this even makes sense.

Lately I feel more confused than ever. I feel scared. I feel like I am grieviing for something I can't quite put my finger on... maybe I am grieving for blind trust... the feeling that I had pre A. I think I feel resentful of losing that in my M... even though maybe it isn't really all that healthy of a way to be.

Do you ever feel really scared? Like your crashing in on yourself... imploding. I feel like I don't feel safe in my skin anymore. I feel like I don't know what to do... or maybe more accurately even who I am anymore since I feel like maybe I have defined who I was based on what other people said or thought about me for so long that it seems I have more questions than answers for myself.

Is this what a midlife crisis is? I am scared that I don't really know what it is that I want or need.

I know I love my husband, my kids, my family... but I feel disconnected... out of sorts. I am not sure I know what to do to connect... to myself or others deeply.

LA, I have been watching the news and thinking about you and wondering if you area has been hard hit with snow. You are so special to me (and many others here too) just wanted to tell you that. I wish we could just go for coffee sometime.

Merry Christmas to you.

Good Morning!


It's definitly my inner child...

I do understand that this is about him and that he will have to come to terms with his own demons...he may not ever be able to do that...

I understand that this is not about me, my kids, or my life...I believe that HE IS proud of me and all that I have accomplished like SD said. I think this is HIS TRUTH.


Some, not much is from the past...mostly from buying into HIS truth that he had changed...wanting to believe it as MY truth...knowing different now...

My anger level wasn't great and has receeded...I feel sorry not only for him but for my mother...I think that it's a shame that they feel they have to live this way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I understand that I am fine without them being in my life...that I no longer need them to approve of me or my life because I approve of me...

God was nice enough to loan me to them...I learn some things along the way and I'm all the better for it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Everything in my life has serviced a purpose and I strongly feel that I'm stronger because of the things that I have been through. I'm okay and that's what matters! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JJ,

"Why is this so hard to just accept? Why do I want from my parents what cannot be?"

Part of the human design is an old brain and a new one...our old brain sees everything as safe or unsafe...either attacked or as a caretaker...makes life look subject to the external...black and white...all or nothing.

Accepting this is my natural first thought, reaction, eased me to not act on them...to acknowledge everyone is assessed as caretakers, like I am an infant. I no longer am. Not bad or wrong...definitely not defective. Sure opened my eyes, though, to see where my old brain kept me in the mindset of BEING defective...always looking for others to agree, provide, nourish and affirm me, though. Not immature--human.

My new brain is where I make choices, discern reality and actually live. Got this from "Getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix. Helped me to stop bashing myself for my initial impulse (fight or flee) and went a long way to increase my acceptance. Our old brains served us well as we first came into this world...our experience and it matched...then we outgrew it...and I, continued to live from it.

Which makes sense that God is our parent...our primeval one...looking to him in the same way...doesn't stop us from reacting at first to other humans in that way, too. Until we stop. Choose differently. Keep telling old brain that we're okay...whole, complete and capable. Building our true trust and love from within...where it truly resides.

I don't see myself as wanting what I can't have...I have my mother's voice in my head, and you can put yourself back into that green chair and rock with her...we didn't lose anything. And humans passing is essential as humans staying...our lessons, finding our way...and knowing we are deeply significant on this planet. In my grieving, I still utter "No! Make her not dead!" and know that's my soft spot, my fear and longing...and I let myself. I don't bash or thrash...just acknowledge and then I can better see my way through.

Like this exercise on this thread...if I see what I lack in others, I look harder for in myself...because I have chosen to believe in completeness...and I usually find it. You may not be the one rocked...you have a daughter you care for...paint your chair green and rock. We demonstrate to ourselves we are enough. Use this as a signal to discover what you aren't giving to yourself or acknowledging your gifts.

Rin said she feared others' ability to deceive...she has that ability. We all do. The worst is to self-deceive, from fear (false protection)...which triggers our dislike, our fear of others' deceiving us. We don't fear others' abilities, but their actions. Good to know the difference. We are all able...we choose not to. That addresses the fear...and keeps our focus within, on our own...are we choosing to falsely self-comfort or deceive ourselves? Good to know. When we see others' as signals, forms of aid to us, about us...then we fear less, feel more nutured, and we are doing that for ourselves. A lot of what we fear from others is really something we are doing to ourselves...fearing us.

That's painful, eh?

Do you believe you can love without trust? I couldn't...until I did. Goes to respect...you cannot control, cause or cure anyone of anything...you are capable of doing that in yourself. Find your causes, your choices. The more you do this, the more you'll perceive others as capable, full of choice and acting on them...whether they acknowledge it or not. We are the cause, control and cure for ourselves...we have that power. Your old brain will keep telling you pain comes in from the outside...your new brain knows it doesn't.

You know, as an adult, blind trust doesn't exist...it's a choice. Not an informed choice. You know that eased old brain more than anything...to pin everything on others...they must keep us safe, even from ourselves...not reasonable. Not real. We are not safe, JJ. We are humans. We only control ourselves and to focus on our own safety--boundaries and standards--is the way I found to know thoroughly I am not safe and live, anyway.

As long as I acted from fear, I lived a reckless life; acted on first impulse. As long as I hold my fear and act from love, I live a respectful life. Powerful and limited, in reality. I can fear and love, anyway. Had to lift my own veil...choose my perspective and perception through knowing my beliefs and replacing those I had from before.

You can do this as well. Your choice.

I have grieved most for not those who have passed from this life...but for myself. I have grieved all my wrong choices, my fearful perspective behind those choices, and the time I've lost not knowing and accepting myself. Grief is ongoing...tiny to huge...learning to grieve well is the key to living well, I believe.

I have grieved leaving fantasy out of my life...because it was instant (and false) succor...if you are grieving that you are in a human marriage because you'd expected to marry someone who would never once harm or injure you...then you are grieving fantasy. Reality is where real trust lives...it's never blind...and there's no respect in fantasy.

We grieve who we were and find our way from there to here and choose today. No confusion. I believe confusion is a great signal to trace to contrary beliefs...both active at once.

I felt very scared and had that implosive feeling when I was waking up from my fantasy life to reality...felt erased and unknown...the big unknown inside me...and I had to rely on books, people here on MB, to go through that transition state...to finally become real. A bountifilled sign of true change...and reclaim who I really am.

You know the story of Pinnochio...think of it again as the journey from who you think you are to who you really are...with all the expectations inside you for life to be smooth, including blind trust (ignorant reliance)...and how many horrible bouts of reality he encountered...to tell him his expectations were unreasonable...real people do horrible things...and marvelous ones. Own your expectations, JJ...you have thousands about yourself...who you are to be to be safe...and until you go through each one and see if they are reasonable...(the sun rises, a day ends, the heat comes on, blankets keep us warm, people smile, sometimes they don't)...and find where those expectations have been self-deception...and caused confusion, friction inside you and in your relationship with the other humans, under the same conditions are you...being totally human, made by God, with inviolate choice.

Takes a lot of getting to know who you really are to find what you want, what you truly need...takes knowing where you end and others begin...just patterns you've lived in all these years...they look like chains, at the beginning, like the meds...only, they become as paper, wisps of light...as you change them. Trust yourself, JJ. You are trustworthy...every day you are aware, choosing pure intent to know not to control, is a day you accept who you are, your limits and power...and live freely.

The more you connect to yourself...listen not to judge, but to know...the more you will do so with others. Find out if you have the expectations that if I only do this one thing, everything else will fall into place...and if you have that, then question if that's coming from you, the adult, you the child, or your parents.

No instant cures last...they contain the symptoms, eradicate the signals...sounds like you're overwhelmed with signals...because you're going for long-term healing (which is acceptance with love), instead of fantasy instant stuff.

Thanks for the concern on the weather...we're fine...messy, slushy now (with 60-degree weather). I love the snow...if this is our equivalent hurricane, earthquake or tornado...well, I'm good with it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would love to go for walks, have coffee, share my time with you, Rin, AmI and many others here. You're in my heart. I get the last part. You are here, sharing your time, your self, with me...and it feels as real as if we did know each other in real life...you are in my prayers as the soul you are...and I believe, I am in yours.

Presence.

Belief.

I believe in you. What you are experiencing is drastic change...gonna feel free-fall and messy. Unless you judge that messiness as failure or a short-coming, it's all right, for now. It's not forever. Transitions aren't. All things come to pass. Even us. Part of our experience. Know the old brain doesn't know now...that's where this fear is coming from...believes whatever is always will be...and it won't. You KNOW that. Now doesn't last...we do. That paradox is too difficult for old brain to hold...everything as a transition to the next is too scary...feels like it's fear is true...our now selves keep being annihilated...wiped out...because we grow...into our now selves, perpetually. Getting okay with that, accepting God's design of humans takes blind trust...faith without proof...unless you see proof everywhere, every breath. Your choice.

We could spend our entire lives fighting our old brain...which is part of ourselves...or we could accept, hold and love that part of ourselves and not act on our fears...and in our new brain, connection to our souls, our spirits, emotions and faith...live from love.

Sounds like a single choice with a million minute actions, doesn't it? Change that single choice into pure intent...find your premise to live from and let go the measuring, the judgment...then get your signals and trace them...

With you all the way, JJ.

LA

Rinners!

"I do understand that this is about him and that he will have to come to terms with his own demons...he may not ever be able to do that..."

Why add on the doubt he may not ever...sounds like inner child thought...the ever...adult Rin says "That is his, this is mine." Assures self, self-respect through respecting others are as capable as you are. And he is.

"I understand that this is not about me, my kids, or my life...I believe that HE IS proud of me and all that I have accomplished like SD said. I think this is HIS TRUTH."

Good to know!

"My anger level wasn't great and has receeded..."

Sounds like you got your signals, eh?

"I feel sorry not only for him but for my mother...I think that it's a shame that they feel they have to live this way..."

The only way for us to change is to get to where we don't want to live that way...how we bring it up from automatic patterns into awareness. For us, by us. What is your payoff inside for judging them? Is it the loss you believe your children experience from their choices, their perspective? Get to your own truth more firmly...wishful child we have...full of expectations which signal us to judge.

And don't spank your wishfilled child, 'k?

LOL

All that they do and did lays a trail for alerts for you...about you. They contribute to your life even by not being in it...get those alerts and know them. And know you love them, anyway...not based on their choices. See, they lead you still...not in the way of a child (blindly), but as an adult...now you have choice in where they lead you...inside.

What your mother said to your FWH...was her opinion...her stuff. An opportunity to share what you think now...with him..."I shared a lot of my pain with my mother. I didn't share a lot of my joy at you ending your A and recommitting to our marriage. I believe whatever she said came from the imbalance...and we both know I cannot control anyone...good to know I have this deep need to be comforted when I'm in torment, and I believe I choose you to share with in those times...and your A took my best friend, my partner, away from me. I'm learning to share with myself more...and I'm grateful you're my partner again. I believe in you and know you will share with me when you choose to. I know we're in this marriage together."

I don't believe in the not knowing/not sharing parts...that's just me. I see every conflict as opportunity now...to share more, know more and accept more. I do believe we defend our marriages and I know we can't protect them from every harm...we keep within our best-thought-out boundaries around ourselves...and speak. Not putting FOO ahead of marriage, nor work or children. Our choices. Each conflict as opportunity...so growth can walk in. We cannot plan out our lives or marriages to be safe...because that tells our marriage and ourselves, we are weak and cannot handle challenge. Each time we do, we acknowledge and know where we feel weak, and have the chance to know we are not.

If your parents saw FWH as the enemy from the beginning, the cause of their conflict for you...the only choice you have is to NOT see him as such. He was an enemy of your marriage for a time...and now, he is not. Knowing these labels do not last will aid you in not seeing your parents as enemies of your marriage, or of you. Or your FWH. Humans choosing and doing...no labels.

Tomorrow, is it, when you have the Christmas get together with your mother? Will you tell her your truth, then? How much her listening to you in your time of torment, feeling like a safe place, a safe person, meant to you? How you neglected to continue that communication given your FWH's return to the marriage, the steps you took, what you learned...all as necessary to sharing as was your pain...and that you choose to continue to connect in the future, with all of you...from love?

That any threats to your FWH is a threat to your marriage?

Draw your lines in love and truth, Rin. Not all or nothing...middle ground...solid acknowledgement...show her your priorities and that you love not from actions taken, but from choice?

What benefits you--all that you're learning about marriage--will benefit your marriage, your partnership, your children and your FOO. Same stuff going out in different ways.

Lastly, did you pay back the money they sent to you? I found a real parallel between monetary support (FS) and emotional support...be sure to be true to your intent and awareness that they do not owe you either...they choose to give it to you, how they do, in their way, through their choice. So do you. I have a debt/gratitude pole in my life...and I had to address it in many ways...still do. Money matters as an emotional symbol. Know your symbol.

Won't change what they think, believe or feel. Sure will change what you do.

In your corner...poking your backside...with love.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I thought of you the other night with MUCH APPRECIATION...

My YS' car broke down on the highway in the dark so I went and sat with him while we waited for AAA.

It was such a wonderful BONDING time for us.

We talked and talked for 2 hrs...that 20yo was held captive by his "Mommy"...I really got to know him AGAIN as a young man and wasn't motivated to FIX everything going wrong in his life.

(((((LOVING))))

THANKS FROM THE VERY BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!!

ETA: What made it even more special was that my H kept calling us to make sure we were OK....He was working....

LA,

Thank you for reminding me that I am not defective. My old brain really wants to wallow in that sometimes.

I have written you several very long posts and wound up saving them... I don't really know why except that maybe I see them as back pedaling into old stuff rather than focusing on what is now. I think I need to focus on now. Doesn't mean the past into playing its own role in the now just how much power I am going to give it and how much I am going to focus on it are a choice right?

So I am going to focus on a couple of things that are happening right now... okay?

First I am concerned about my M. I have in the past month or so started to have angry and resentful feelings toward my H. I found here a recovery timeline that suggests that my feelings are not all that uncommon for the 6-8 month period of recovery. I know I said I felt angry at him about feeling like he stole the security of blind trust (which isn't healthy anyway because it lulls us into a dangerous false sense of security and sets us up to be hurt.) I am allowing myself to grieve that idea. I really do feel like I wanted that for so long... that sense of blind faith and trust in another. I do get to have that with God though because He really is the only one who can provide that because He isn't human and therefore not fallible.

My H and I aren't spending enough UA together. I am just as at fault for this as my H in fact maybe more so because of the resentment I have been feeling. Right after D-day I think I was shearly operating out of fear. Fear that he would leave me for her. His fear that I would leave him.

I had to learn that I was choosing to stay and so was he. I am still choosing to stay and so is he. We worked hard on our M for the next few months doing the things that are suggested here... meeting each other's needs, stopping LB behaviors, getting our UA time in and SF was occurring often.

SF was an issue for us pre A. It has started to become an issue again. He wants to have more SF than me... this is the way it was pre A too. After D-day I wanted to have a lot of SF too. I think I felt desperate to reclaim this... like a dog marking its territory. SF becomes a nasty little cycle for us. It has been hard for me lately because I feel some resentment which makes it harder for me to want to meet his needs that way and that is coupled with the fear that if I don't he might go outside our M to get those needs met. So then I feel resentful about that.

The more SF we have the better we get along in general. I know this yet at the same time it's like I sabotage anyway. Sometimes I think I have used SF as a means of rewarding and punishing. The thing is I actually do enjoy SF once we get going. But I think I think about it as a chore... something on my to do list. I don't get this about myself at all. I don't understand why when I know that life will be a lot smoother and things between my H and I will be a lot better if we have regular SF. I don't know why knowing this I still feel like I don't want to do it. I mean it would make sense to me if I really didn't like SF but I do so it doesn't make a lick of sense why I do what I do.

We have two dogs. Both are old. One is a little mini doxie and the other a German Shepard. The little dog will bark and bark when he wants to be fed. He will whine and bark annoying all of us. We all know that if we would just feed him he would shut up and quit annoying us with his incessant barking yet we will holler at him to hush and ignore him until one of us can't take it anymore and someone feeds him. Our other dog never does this. She knows we are going to feed her at around the same time everyday. Our little dog gets fed everyday around the same time too but it doesn't stop him from barking when he thinks we are late in feeding him.

Sometimes I feel the same way about my H and SF as I do about the dog and his barking. My H will whine and bark at me about not meeting his need for SF. The more he barks the more annoyed I get even though I know if I would just go on and have sex then he would stop whining and barking.

Another issue in our home is that our DD7 still sleeps in our bed a lot. We have no one but ourselves to blame for this and I know we have got to get her in her own bed once and for all. I know she is afraid to sleep in her own room. We have tried over the years to get her to sleep in her own bed. We lie down with her in her room until she falls asleep or carry her to her bed if she falls asleep on ours. The problem is that she wakes up in the night and comes back into our room. Sometimes one of us (usually me) will go back with her to her room until she falls asleep and then if I haven't myself fallen back asleep in her bed return to our bed.

My H complains a lot about this... but I feel like he thinks it is my responsibility to get her to sleep in her own bed. He isn't any more consistent than I am about doing the things we need to do to help her sleep independently and he finger points a lot regarding this issue.

One thing about this and this is just an aside really... why is it that as adults we get to have the comfort and security of sleeping with someone else but as kids we have to go it alone... no matter how afraid we are of the dark. Maybe this is why I haven't pushed this issue as much as I should have.

I used to be really embarrassed and ashamed that we had allowed our DD to sleep with us until I found out this happens to be a really common issue for a lot of people. But I do know that this issue affects SF in our M. Having a child in your bed just kinda puts a huge damper on the whole thing. Sometimes I wonder if subconsciously I have allowed her to be in there as a way to excuse myself out of SF. Hmmmmn?

But why... that is what I want to get at... why do I not want to have SF that much even though I really enjoy it. Any ideas on this one LA? It seems to me that my lack of desire for SF creates all kinds of other problems in our M. It starts a whole cycle of well your not meeting my need for SF so I am not going to meet your needs for XYZ. The more my other needs don't get met the more I don't want to have SF. I think I feel resentful of the fact that I know that if I would be better at meeting those needs than I would get more of my own needs met. Ugggh I don't want to feel like this about it... like somehow it is a chore. I love my H and I want to meet his needs... this is just a sore spot for us and has been for a long time. This was an issue way way pre A. It got better after the A but I feel like it is slowly rearing its ugly head again.

I don't want to feel resentful toward my H for wanting something normal and healthy in a M. I want to want to want it more and I am not sure what it is about.

So there are some current issues... the resentment I feel toward my H regarding the A, the frustration regarding SF, and our DD's sleeping in our bed. Have at it... I need some help LA.

Did you ever have any of these issues in your M? If so how did you deal with them?

Did your dad get his new pacemaker? How is it going with the FOO? How are you dealing with your grief? I followed your letter thread... the one that you wrote to your parents. I didn't comment there because well you know why I didn't although lately I have considered commenting on a thread or 2. What I never said to you was how brave I thought you were for your honesty in that letter. What I didn't say to you is that I think you are remarkable... a beacon of hope for me in my journey. I forget to tell you thank you often... so thank you for all the time you spend here and the special way only you have.

Good Morning! I hope that you all had a great CHristams and I am wishing you all a blessed New Year!

Mine is already blessed...LOL...L avoided a hospital visit this New year's eve! I brought him into the Dr. Friday and he said that if he wasn't better by Sunday he would have to be admitted! Thank God is was better. I was up every three hours giving breathing treatments...

lol...All my hard work paid off and L even did a little dancing at the New year's Eve party! I was very happy and I am looking to a hopeful year.


I believe this is my way of comforting myself...reinforcing the belief that I need to keep them at a distance to feel safe...I really don't like the way my mom interacted with my kids...so in a way, I feel like I have to protect them from her intimidation...

I see her lack of awareness...not realizing what she's doing and I perfer not to deal with it...it's a matter of protection for me with my judgement of her and SD as justifition for my own actions...to protect myself, my kids, my DH, and M.

I don't feel that I am ready to deal with them in my life on a regular basis...I know that they can't control me anymore and that I have choice but just the thought of them and trying to remove me expectation of them seems so remote at present...lots of hard work in that area...I feel that I can't handle that right now!


LMAO...Sent it back almost as fast as I received it...my mom wanted me to deposit it into a new account and I didn't feel that was right...she was trying to push me and I felt that her own past pain was influencing her with me...I even mentioned that to my SD and he said that he would handle her...

She even said "Once a cheater, always a cheater...they don't change!"

LOL...at the Christmas party, I was having a drink and my dear mother pulled my drink out of my hand, set it down, and handed me her camera so I could take a picture for her. No asking...I thought she was rude...I could have handled the situation better...

I could have said "I didn't appreciate you not asking me to take the picture and taking things out of my hand!" It would have state my boundary...

Also, I was showing last night and in my line of thinking...I linked my SF of "my youth" (sort to speak) to a feeling of self-worth and self-respect...

I mean I had known that I use SF to make myself feel loved...I had determined that in college but didn't link it to a feel of self-respect and self-worth until last night. I may not have even done so had I not seen myself in two OW at the New year's Eve party that DH, L, ANd I attended.

I saw this display of attention seeking and I thought to myself I use to be like that, and DH made a comment to another friend about how he was trying to convict me to return to the Old Self, but he was tired of talking.

I decided not to say anything at that time...it has been a sore subject I think between us and I don't feel understood or listened to. MOF, I told him last night that I had some thoughts that I wanted to share with him but wasn't comfortable enought to do so.

Basically, I use to do things that I really didn't want to do with DH, but I didn't respect myself to stand up to him. I would protest and end up backing down...not I'm standing my ground...saying "I will not do this anymore...I don't feel comfortable...I don't like it...I don't feel that you are respecting my wishes by asking me..."

We have had countless "talks" about this and I hear things like...remember what you did to get me...I feel rejected when I do this and you say no...which my reply is...I know you know I don't like it, yet you do it anyway...why put yourself in a position where you will be rejected...

DH don't get that I felt loved through sex...that's how I measure how lovable I was...if I didn't get/give SF then I wasn't loved...I have been trying to "put my foot down" for years and would back down...I feel that I'm being tested again and again...I backed down before, what's do say that I won't this time...

I know the difference...I respect myself...I don't need SF to feel accepted, loved, valued...I am...I matter...

Last night, I thought about this thread and how it really helped me to flip it and see myself... accept my old behavior as well as my new behavior...and not feel as if I have to back down...knowing that I'm okay the way I am...to back up my own beliefs...

DH doesn't have to understand them...though, it would be nice...and honestly, the way I feel about it...if he can't accept me, then he doesn't deserve to be with me...I don't deserve the being pressured into doing something I don't want to do...

I really did amaze myself with the level of awareness I have...

Also, last night, I started to get mad because DH wasn't home to cook the cabbage and he hadn't called to say he would be late...I stopped myself and asked why was I getting mad...it was my expectations...I expected him to call and aslo expected him home before a certain time...neither which I verbalized to DH...no sense in getting mad...So, I TMed him and asked for a courtesy call...

Done...I was very proud to see the changes that I have made...KUDOS to the Rinder!

I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this...FOO, DH, etc...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for being so great... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA,

Miss you... hope everything is okay with you.

Rin... do you know if LA went to see her dad? Just wondering if she's okay.

Thanks...

Mimi...oh, how wonderful! Thank you for sharing your experience...totally contrary to old routines and you caught the celebration of presence with both hands! Congrats to you, too, wonderwoman o' my heart!

JJ - Yes, I was gone for 10 days at my parents' house in another state. Just arrived home tonight. Now I can't sleep. LOL.

You're welcome for my reminding you that you are NOT defective...and kudos to you for catching the emotional perspective you have...which you are changing. Recognition is key, JJ. And thank you for taking my reminder as intended...not as a nag.

Your anger is normal and healthy right now, JJ. Around this time of recovery, you may feel safe enough to get really angry at your FWH's A. Your job to trace it to its origin...which may be...this shouldn't have happened (it did and it's undoable)...bad things shouldn't happen...or that his A was about you (hence, you create resentment at him for unwarranted pain). Remind yourself, A pain is always unwarranted...and you aren't earning pain or love anymore...and find out if you feel responsible in anyway for his A...even if it's you shoulda known better given he'd done it before.

All unreasonable beliefs which can generate a lot of anger...anger isn't bad or wrong...it's a signal. Get your signal. It's growth, not judgment.

Please don't stepover your anger...in that signal is your security level rising giving you license to experience anger...find all of the stuff within the stuff.

"I know I said I felt angry at him about feeling like he stole the security of blind trust (which isn't healthy anyway because it lulls us into a dangerous false sense of security and sets us up to be hurt.) I am allowing myself to grieve that idea."

Terrific choice...goes back to FOO, doesn't it? Where you can grieve loss of blind trust many times...and know your expectation of blind trust being real, given the right person. Not real, is it? Humans are...humans do...does not kill us, really, does it? May feel like it...I wonder if blind trust kills blind trust and that as a healthy thing?

"I really do feel like I wanted that for so long... that sense of blind faith and trust in another. I do get to have that with God though because He really is the only one who can provide that because He isn't human and therefore not fallible."

Getting that straight in our minds is difficult...we see, feel, hear and smell humans...not God...until we train ourselves to, right?

You said you feel anger and resentment...and you know anger is a signal...as is resentment...only resentment is self-punishment...anger isn't. Why do you believe you are choosing to create resentment...and punish yourself right now?

"My H and I aren't spending enough UA together. I am just as at fault for this as my H in fact maybe more so because of the resentment I have been feeling. Right after D-day I think I was shearly operating out of fear. Fear that he would leave me for her. His fear that I would leave him.

I had to learn that I was choosing to stay and so was he. I am still choosing to stay and so is he. We worked hard on our M for the next few months doing the things that are suggested here... meeting each other's needs, stopping LB behaviors, getting our UA time in and SF was occurring often."

Realigning, over and over again...not doing and believing it will stay that way, without effort, attention and focus. Goes to the same age you believed in blind trust...believing when you fix the bicycle it remains fixed...rather than accepting it doesn't.

"SF was an issue for us pre A. It has started to become an issue again. He wants to have more SF than me... this is the way it was pre A too. After D-day I wanted to have a lot of SF too. I think I felt desperate to reclaim this... like a dog marking its territory. SF becomes a nasty little cycle for us. It has been hard for me lately because I feel some resentment which makes it harder for me to want to meet his needs that way and that is coupled with the fear that if I don't he might go outside our M to get those needs met. So then I feel resentful about that."

SF is not the same as pre-A...unless you kept what it symbolized pre-A. As an EN, it means connection...him wanting to connect to you. When viewed that way, where's the resentment? Especially if your UA time is way down...how else can he connect? SF is stark presence...if you choose that as your perspective...unspoken intimacy. Bring words into and surround it...your resentment will degrade all ENs (you won't feel him meeting them), like a barrier, and your choice to not act on your love (won't feel like it), and that is where marriages unravel...the downward spiral, I believe, from resentment.

Try this...when you feel resentful, ask yourself...can he erase your pain through his choices today? Does he have the ability to undo what he did? Can you make him change the past through resentment, evening the score, or punishing yourself enough? When you are very present in today, how do you feel?

"The more SF we have the better we get along in general. I know this yet at the same time it's like I sabotage anyway. Sometimes I think I have used SF as a means of rewarding and punishing. The thing is I actually do enjoy SF once we get going. But I think I think about it as a chore... something on my to do list. I don't get this about myself at all. I don't understand why when I know that life will be a lot smoother and things between my H and I will be a lot better if we have regular SF. I don't know why knowing this I still feel like I don't want to do it."

Your awareness, introspection is fantastic...so I'm calling you on the "I don't want to do it." Being human, you will not do that which you do not want...there's a payoff in not having SF when you KNOW all this...find your payoff...get to your nitty gritty...find the words in yourself which reveal entitlement, deserving...as you think about what SF represents, symbolizes to you.

I bet you have a lot of old, even ancient beliefs in you about it...a woman's role, a man's role...and you no longer believe those.

"I mean it would make sense to me if I really didn't like SF but I do so it doesn't make a lick of sense why I do what I do."

Everything you choose to do makes sense...to your beliefs...check the beliefs you're operating from because they may be waaay out of date to your adult beliefs. Confusion is a signal.

You spent your life living from your feelings...I did, as well. Thought that was the way...took the signals without examination or introspection...reacted instead of acted. This process of living in truth, directly from your beliefs, takes time, awareness, practice and acting, not reacting...even to your own self. Self-image. You can do this.

"We have two dogs. Both are old. One is a little mini doxie and the other a German Shepard. The little dog will bark and bark when he wants to be fed. He will whine and bark annoying all of us. We all know that if we would just feed him he would shut up and quit annoying us with his incessant barking yet we will holler at him to hush and ignore him until one of us can't take it anymore and someone feeds him. Our other dog never does this. She knows we are going to feed her at around the same time everyday. Our little dog gets fed everyday around the same time too but it doesn't stop him from barking when he thinks we are late in feeding him.

Sometimes I feel the same way about my H and SF as I do about the dog and his barking. My H will whine and bark at me about not meeting his need for SF. The more he barks the more annoyed I get even though I know if I would just go on and have sex then he would stop whining and barking."

Ahh...your choice of perspective here feeds your resentment which then impairs your connection...look further inside yourself..what a great way to break intimacy, connection...this perspective may feel like protection when it's actually eroding your love inside...because you have a barking dog, too...

"Another issue in our home is that our DD7 still sleeps in our bed a lot. We have no one but ourselves to blame for this and I know we have got to get her in her own bed once and for all. I know she is afraid to sleep in her own room. We have tried over the years to get her to sleep in her own bed. We lie down with her in her room until she falls asleep or carry her to her bed if she falls asleep on ours. The problem is that she wakes up in the night and comes back into our room. Sometimes one of us (usually me) will go back with her to her room until she falls asleep and then if I haven't myself fallen back asleep in her bed return to our bed.

My H complains a lot about this... but I feel like he thinks it is my responsibility to get her to sleep in her own bed. He isn't any more consistent than I am about doing the things we need to do to help her sleep independently and he finger points a lot regarding this issue.

One thing about this and this is just an aside really... why is it that as adults we get to have the comfort and security of sleeping with someone else but as kids we have to go it alone... no matter how afraid we are of the dark. Maybe this is why I haven't pushed this issue as much as I should have.

I used to be really embarrassed and ashamed that we had allowed our DD to sleep with us until I found out this happens to be a really common issue for a lot of people. But I do know that this issue affects SF in our M. Having a child in your bed just kinda puts a huge damper on the whole thing. Sometimes I wonder if subconsciously I have allowed her to be in there as a way to excuse myself out of SF. Hmmmmn?

But why... that is what I want to get at... why do I not want to have SF that much even though I really enjoy it. Any ideas on this one LA? It seems to me that my lack of desire for SF creates all kinds of other problems in our M. It starts a whole cycle of well your not meeting my need for SF so I am not going to meet your needs for XYZ. The more my other needs don't get met the more I don't want to have SF. I think I feel resentful of the fact that I know that if I would be better at meeting those needs than I would get more of my own needs met. Ugggh I don't want to feel like this about it... like somehow it is a chore. I love my H and I want to meet his needs... this is just a sore spot for us and has been for a long time. This was an issue way way pre A. It got better after the A but I feel like it is slowly rearing its ugly head again."

This is GREAT, JJ...pre-A stuff to be worked on...signalling you that emotional, mental and physical habits are resurfacing...can feel like they negate change...they don't...reassert your priorities, check your chosen perspective, focus on you acting from love, not giving to get, nor tit for tat...see where your old belief we earn love comes galloping back in...because when you're in that belief, then your FWH must earn YOUR love...and you won't feel loved, cherished, gifted through presence and actions, will you? Open your gates...your resentment is blocking intimacy and connection as if it protects instead of destroys...which is why we wake up in our marriages and see desolation and are surprised.

Realign.

"I don't want to feel resentful toward my H for wanting something normal and healthy in a M. I want to want to want it more and I am not sure what it is about."

I know I can choose to love resentment more than humans. I lived that way...nourished, fed and cherished resentment. I believe it's my oldest security blanket...and it's self-deception and false. It's a prison...like pouring cement over my own feet. Free yourself...resentment will not only corrode your marriage, it will block your relationships...even with God.

"So there are some current issues... the resentment I feel toward my H regarding the A, the frustration regarding SF, and our DD's sleeping in our bed. Have at it... I need some help LA."

Healthy boundaries with your DD...she's gotten really mixed signals over the years...times when she's been your comfort, sleeping close to you, as you are hers. She believes it's mutual...time to apply what you've learned about humans to her...she's a human, too. Her ENs...know them...act on meeting them...respectfully...and slowly you'll be able to change the cavern of security (your bed) to her own...bedtime routines, with lots of admiration and appreciation, attention...the winding down, the ownership of her room, speaking and listening directly to her self...acknowledging and not wavering on healthy boundaries...why we sleep alone and get to know ourselves, own our stuff (including our own bed), face our fears because we are brave enough...include a lot of physical affection throughout the day, last act of the night...you'll be hugging her in her dreams...acknowledge her perceptions...hear them...she may feel put away, out of your hair, a relief when she's in her own bed...which may feel like rejection and disconnection. Listen and repeat. Share your truth...you know it may seem that way, you remember being a child, too...and you are not rejecting her, discounting her fears (even of not being able to sleep), you are applauding her ownership, bravery and her capability to have her own space, identity and separateness.

I don't believe I'm telling you anything you don't already know in yourself...share that with her.

"Did you ever have any of these issues in your M? If so how did you deal with them?"

I have sons...and my firstborn slept in my bed through infancy to two years old...and so did his brother...because I only had one bed. Then they got their own room, which they shared, and it was rough...but within a couple of months, it was routine...I wasn't married. My youngest, when I was, slept in our bed only through nursing...then had his own crib. Still in our room...and then, his own bed, finally, when we had the space. All three boys slept in the same room, though, for three years...and each transition helped. Presence helps. I didn't have your way. I'm remembering my own girlhood...and I shared, at DD's age, a room with my sister...still a presence. However, I felt rejected, put away, slept walked...often pestered my parents when I was scared and crawled back in. I don't advise it at all.

"Did your dad get his new pacemaker? How is it going with the FOO? How are you dealing with your grief?"

No, he hasn't gotten a new one yet...might find out next week. He's doing well, though, for having no stints. I'm really grieving well right now...ten days at home, where I could hear my mother's voice, cook in her kitchen (never allowed before), do laundry in her machines, feed her cat, cry and walk, sit, breathe her air really helped tremendously. Got to talk with a neighbor (she asked me to lunch) and remember and share and sort of continue on for her own grief in missing my mother. I got to pack up all her clothes (shipped seven boxes to myself), her stuff...give a truckload to the battered women's shelter, spend time twice with her cleaning lady, remember, rejoice and miss...and got hit with another loss...my best from awhile ago died two days after I arrived at my dad's...haven't gotten to that one...I will, though. I'm not afraid.

"I followed your letter thread... the one that you wrote to your parents. I didn't comment there because well you know why I didn't although lately I have considered commenting on a thread or 2. What I never said to you was how brave I thought you were for your honesty in that letter. What I didn't say to you is that I think you are remarkable... a beacon of hope for me in my journey. I forget to tell you thank you often... so thank you for all the time you spend here and the special way only you have."

You thank me with every post...because you post. Because you share and continue to share...my privilege. You are my beacon, as well. When I remind you, I remind me. When I am gentle with you, I am gentle with me. I have experienced great self-forgiveness and healing through our exchanges. I believe fully in your sincerity and I believe you believe fully in mine. This is mutuality, JJ. All the way. And we can experience this with everyone...acceptance. Respect. Reality. Ownership. And being really brave.

And we are.

LA

RINDERWOMAN!

Hiya!

"I believe this is my way of comforting myself...reinforcing the belief that I need to keep them at a distance to feel safe...I really don't like the way my mom interacted with my kids...so in a way, I feel like I have to protect them from her intimidation..."

When you teach your children how to respond, you are empowering them. When you protect them from incidents to respond to...what are you doing? You're learning how to respond to your mother yourself...understandable about the urge for distance. We learn in bites and have to swallow, don't we? When you focus on your actions in regards to your mother...another hopper on your head...lots of listen and repeat...you'll then teach your children respectful response, ownership and not feeling intimidated by allowing her influence to be so wide.

Your focus is on your marriage...I'm not saying to undertake this as your focus...know it's part of all you're learning and changing...not more new stuff...same stuff, different direction. I'm still a newbie at this myself in regards to FOO.

"I see her lack of awareness...not realizing what she's doing and I perfer not to deal with it...it's a matter of protection for me with my judgement of her and SD as justifition for my own actions...to protect myself, my kids, my DH, and M."

Judgment doesn't really protect...only gives us the false payoffs, false signals...This is the heart of FOO...our way of dealing with instead of experiencing it for what it is...old stuff. And we're new stuff. I'm asking you to look at your reality in a new way, not to fix anything.

"I don't feel that I am ready to deal with them in my life on a regular basis...I know that they can't control me anymore and that I have choice but just the thought of them and trying to remove me expectation of them seems so remote at present...lots of hard work in that area...I feel that I can't handle that right now!"

When we think to ourselves, "I can't handle this" we negate the reality we are experiencing it...we are capable...we are doing. Don't put yourself down by choosing to perceive too much on your plate...God won't give you more than you can bear...more than you can handle. He may be showing you through one relationship parallels in another. Same stuff, different guises.

"LMAO...Sent it back almost as fast as I received it...my mom wanted me to deposit it into a new account and I didn't feel that was right...she was trying to push me and I felt that her own past pain was influencing her with me...I even mentioned that to my SD and he said that he would handle her..."

Terrific choice, IMO, Rin. YOU handled her...you acted, not reacted. You didn't give in, succumb, appease...you stood your ground. You gave back the money because of you, not her. Great bravery and integrity.

"She even said "Once a cheater, always a cheater...they don't change!""

Her opinion, and you listened and repeated, right? Great point to agree to disagree on.

"LOL...at the Christmas party, I was having a drink and my dear mother pulled my drink out of my hand, set it down, and handed me her camera so I could take a picture for her. No asking...I thought she was rude...I could have handled the situation better...

I could have said "I didn't appreciate you not asking me to take the picture and taking things out of my hand!" It would have state my boundary..."

That would have been a healthy boundary enforcement. Your awareness of what you will say in the future is terrific...which is why we predetermine boundary enforcements...easy to think of afterwards...set in your mind...and I would recommend...setting down the camera and picking back up your drink. Calmly saying, "I hear you're asking me to take a picture, is that correct? Then wait to hear if I choose to or not. Please do not lie and say you're asking when you are putting the camera into my hand, okay?"

We automatically say, "I don't appreciate when" and that's a lie, too, in a way. We don't feel appreciated or respected. There's an important difference. One way is a civil lie given to others as a boundary enforcement...which violates our own boundary of honesty, doesn't it?

There's strength and clarity in getting our own speech correct, because it helps with our self-talk dialogue.

"Also, I was showing last night and in my line of thinking...I linked my SF of "my youth" (sort to speak) to a feeling of self-worth and self-respect...

I mean I had known that I use SF to make myself feel loved...I had determined that in college but didn't link it to a feel of self-respect and self-worth until last night. I may not have even done so had I not seen myself in two OW at the New year's Eve party that DH, L, ANd I attended.

I saw this display of attention seeking and I thought to myself I use to be like that, and DH made a comment to another friend about how he was trying to convict me to return to the Old Self, but he was tired of talking.

I decided not to say anything at that time...it has been a sore subject I think between us and I don't feel understood or listened to. MOF, I told him last night that I had some thoughts that I wanted to share with him but wasn't comfortable enought to do so.

Basically, I use to do things that I really didn't want to do with DH, but I didn't respect myself to stand up to him."

Similarly to my post to JJ, think this all the way through...we do not, as humans, do that which we do not want to...your payoff in SF was false self-esteem and respect...feeling loved through being desired. Not about not standing up to him--you weren't being honest with yourself or with him. There's a difference...same result, same choice. Get to the difference. Our fear of intimacy gets obscured by our fear of abandonment...get to your fear of intimacy, too. Imagery matters. The image of you standing up, of you giving in, is detrimental to the truth...you choose your actions. You know this now. Remind yourself to find your choice, your part. Your choice to not speak, not share, not connect self to FWH...is your choice. Knowing it benefits you.

"I would protest and end up backing down...not I'm standing my ground...saying "I will not do this anymore...I don't feel comfortable...I don't like it...I don't feel that you are respecting my wishes by asking me...""

I believe this is your own urge to hold your fear of intimacy and act anyway...stand in your own ground, holding yourself to your own code. Funny thing about boundaries...what you do not hold yourself to, you cannot hold others to...doublecheck this boundary within yourself. You might find a totally different image...by choosing a different perspective.

Is this from his remark to his friend about want your old self back and tired of asking you for it? Because that's his...there is nothing bad or wrong about him wanting the illusion he had before he blew it to bits...that's our wishful child, wanting a do-over, or an undo...doesn't mean forever...just right now...maybe in that very moment. That's marvelous he's tired of asking for the old you...because you cannot be that you again nor can he be who he was then, either. You're not the same people.

"We have had countless "talks" about this and I hear things like...remember what you did to get me...I feel rejected when I do this and you say no...which my reply is...I know you know I don't like it, yet you do it anyway...why put yourself in a position where you will be rejected..."

You're in a power struggle in these talks, Rin. Choose to stop your part in them. When these begin, listen and repeat only. Do not refute, rebuff, attempt to fix or solve. Listen. Repeat. "I hear you feel rejected when" "I hear you believe I do what you don't like (or not do what you do like) and you perceive my intention comes from not caring or to reject you, is that correct?"

"DH don't get that I felt loved through sex...that's how I measure how lovable I was...if I didn't get/give SF then I wasn't loved...I have been trying to "put my foot down" for years and would back down...I feel that I'm being tested again and again...I backed down before, what's do say that I won't this time..."

What if this is an all or nothing issue...which signals you are coming from really old stuff here...not adult, in the middle perspective? SF was this to you...what does it symbolize to your adult self? Seems like you're confusing the act with the intention. Your old intention was false...what's your new intention? To view SF as an emotional arena? Where your marriage connects with two full presences (I don't think that's a word, forgive me), not filling a hole, giving to get...two humans expressing connection, appreciation, admiration, acceptance?

Can SF be acceptance? Our totality meeting? Would you consider that your intention to engage in SF as an act of love directly from your choice to love would enable you to feel loved through SF, just another way to connect?

"I know the difference...I respect myself...I don't need SF to feel accepted, loved, valued...I am...I matter..."

All or nothing isn't adult experience...you can choose to see SF as another way to feel and express acceptance, love, value, respect, acknowledge I am and He is, too...I matter, He matters. Mutuality. Sometimes, SF is our way of seeing other stuff in our life in this light...it's intense and bonding...shared support, demonstrated equality (side by side), the act of love I believe God intended. Act of love.

Not to get...

And remember, I held the same exact intentions as you did before...totally...I do understand. Before you knew you chose your intentions, you were ruled by them. You were ignorant. You no longer are. You fear reverting to habit, self-degradation. I fear this, too...use it as a signal I'm not looking at my choice...constant, inherent...it's there. I choose. You choose.

"Last night, I thought about this thread and how it really helped me to flip it and see myself... accept my old behavior as well as my new behavior...and not feel as if I have to back down...knowing that I'm okay the way I am...to back up my own beliefs...

DH doesn't have to understand them...though, it would be nice...and honestly, the way I feel about it...if he can't accept me, then he doesn't deserve to be with me...I don't deserve the being pressured into doing something I don't want to do..."

DH may not understand them now...doesn't mean forever. Be open, respectful...he's learning, too. Stop judging and use that energy to be aware. He accepts you every moment...he's in your marriage, he's half...he's there...he shares...listen for him sharing. You may be experiencing overlap from hearing his sharing as demands, similar to your mother's intimidation...which are demands. See how you can work on one thing and have it illuminate another?

"I really did amaze myself with the level of awareness I have...

Also, last night, I started to get mad because DH wasn't home to cook the cabbage and he hadn't called to say he would be late...I stopped myself and asked why was I getting mad...it was my expectations...I expected him to call and aslo expected him home before a certain time...neither which I verbalized to DH...no sense in getting mad...So, I TMed him and asked for a courtesy call..."

Awareness...great on the self-congrats and recognizing you caught yourself...remind yourself that the old you didn't do that...didn't know how...and you do. That's you. Now.

"Done...I was very proud to see the changes that I have made...KUDOS to the Rinder!

I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this...FOO, DH, etc..."

Find your FOO in your perspective right now...today...stay in your adult self, holding that child within you...her reactions, fears...act don't react. Know to know, not judge. Up your awareness of your judging...you may be signalled as you feel your level of acceptance (for yourself or others) dropping...judgment and acceptance are a seesaw...when one is going up, the other is going down.

You experienced a lot of FOO these past two months...the past is not the present...reasonable to feel inside as if it's happening now. It's not. Find your overlaps...trace them back to the same belief...may appear to be totally different issues...I don't believe they are.

Know you are loved. Remind yourself. Know your mother is loving you, your SD is loving you and most importantly, your FWH is loving you. Right now. And you're loving you. Rejoicing in your own love, in their love. It's there. Real. Be your FWH's partner...hear him...do not act on his truth...know it.

Realigning...recentering yourself. I updated on my own FOO and present in JJ's post...and yes, I realign and get present every day. Not gonna stay that way unless I stay aware, eh?

(((((((Rinderkind!))))))))

LA

Okay, great big, tough, hard, sharing moment for me...

I felt like if I didn't agree to threesome or swapping that he would leave me...I introduced him to it in college, while dating...I was sexually abused as a child (9) and for a long time thought that I was interested in girls...well, I'm not...I was looking for validation, false self esteem...

It did benefit me at one point, but when I wanted to stop and mentioned it to DH (he was DH at the time, and I was DW...no W in there...nothing behind anyone's back) I have been ashamed (not really ashamed, it's a part of my life and I did the best that I could at the time. I've learned that wasn't the right way to live my life and have slowly been changing it since, not something I wanted my kids to learn!) of this and was very scared to mention these things on MB at all...I've seen how members react...I've been trying to straighten out my life for years and DH and I have come a long way to get to this point...

I have done some counseling along the way...like I mentioned...DH/FWH is still here...and I'm still moving along...I haven't killed myself or anything...so I'm so proud of the progress that I've made... (I don't plan on it either...BTW!)

We haven't done anything like this in maybe three or four years, maybe longer I'm not certain...the main thing DH has complainted about is a type of SF...not SF in general...

I have enough issues without feeling like I'm being attack and to be honest I feel safe telling you, LA...

I would appreciate supportive posts from others should you feel the need to post and please state in your post to remind me that you ARE posting out of care and concern...if you can not do this...I will ignore or not response to your post...Thank you in advance for taking my feelings into considersation...

I think that this is all I can write about right now...I'll post more later...that's tough enough to admit to...I'm healthier now than I've ever been and it's still tough...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Keeping my head up b/c I know I'm a better person for everything that I've been through...stronger b/c of it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Rin...I had your post up all day, looking for a way to answer you right away, and work crushed me under.

I'm here now...just wanted you to know that you were with me all day...and I didn't tell you.

Huge O&H, Rin...extremely brave and important. Remember when I said you are not alone? You really aren't, honey. My DH did this and I chose to go along, as well...and I believe I know where you're coming from because you have rooted out your whys and I have, too...and I know I'll discover more and more of them in the future.

First, I want to share why I count those events as part of my serial cheating...I believe now that anytime we bring another party, however brief, into our marriage, it's wayward. It is adultery. I've come to terms with that...but then, I get to lump, don't I? Up to you where you examine and put it...helped me to see more clearly HOW to make my marriage sacred to me...not a should in the bunch. Total want. Choice. Enhanced my strength and freedom. So there was the W in mine...for both of us...in retrospect. Nothing behind anyone's back...part of the SA, though...and again, we're looking at permissions here, not bad or wrong...permissions we gave from our own justifications and self-deceptions...and ignorance.

Are you saying that this type of SF (which isn't an EN, btw) action is what your FWH is pushing for now? You've already said no more before, if I understand you correctly...but this is what he's asking for?

SA is real, Rin...not a fad or a trendy diagnosis...it's real and it's pervasive. It isn't really about SF in the way Harley defines SF...it's about a lot of other stuff underneath, hard to get to...has to be gotten to.

Like you, I didn't have the example of what a sacred marriage was...boundaries or self-love and care. We're learning that now...we had no idea that it could be higher, deeper, wider than the way we knew...earning love in any form. I'm asking you, for you alone, to define what marital SF really means to you now...what you can see of it as an EN between two connected, intimate partners...I'm asking you for a new perspective. For you. And to share that with me.

Though you were the original idea woman in this department...and in my life, my DH was...at a point several years ago, my DH said...no more...and we went on...no closer or more intimate...until I had my last affair...and I said, "But you started it" (I'm full of shame right now in sharing this, yet this was essentially my childish fogspeak) when I asked for him to do that again...to include my AP...which is now, in my eyes, the lowest...in several horrific lows.

My DH stuck by his guns and said no...and it wasn't just once...I complained, urged, demanded and cajoled...I was pitiful. And he said no. I love him so much today for that stand...I really do. Even that didn't pull me out of the fog, from my mire of justifications. And I only share this mortifying truth to match your own courage in sharing, because I hear in your FWH myself...sort of. Just wondering...if this is what he's asking for, I'm hearing deep fog or SA shouting.

What do you think? Tender terrority here...full of shaming and stunting and withdrawing, in my mind. Have you guys been getting your 15 hours of UA time? The RC time together? How about those communication exercises?

I believe this issue would now be your deal breaker. Where you would respect his choices and remove yourself from the marriage if this is what he wants instead of sacred intimacy. It is for me. Not that it's come up, of course. However, I don't know how much time you've gotten together to listen and repeat...be profoundly safe enough to know what he's really asking and why...where no assumptions or old reactions interfere.

Tell me...

I had a hard time coming to terms with this behavior being A's...because it was agreed to, honest, not behind the back...and it was about the illusion of being more intimate when really, it drives humans further apart...distracts enough to relieve and not feel the destruction beneath it...crumbling our interiors. Very snakey sneaky. Not what it seems...smoke and mirrors, as you discovered. And you're real now, Rin. Thoughtful, contemplative, committed to act, not react. Boldly O&H, inside and out...Rin...you ARE building your own self-respect now with real bricks and mortar...I know you feel and believe that. This was a huge step, I think. Through ownership there is freedom...authentic living in self-esteem and respect. I pray you're experiencing that right now...to know it's texture and taste, the way it smells solid...instead of the pretend of how it once looked and sounded. All different. You'll know the difference.

I am honored with your trust, in awe of your courage, and deeply grateful how much you aid me in my own stuff.

LA

(((RIN)))

((((LA)))

~ Marsh

THank you MArsh! I appreciate the hug and support.

I have believed for several years that it should be just DH and I. SF is loving, tender, exploration of man and woman connecting on all levels: physically, mentally, and emotionally...I believe that it should be one woman and one man...

I don't believe that one should try to push the other into doing things that the other does not enjoy...in my case anal SF (ASF)...

If I understand correctly DH is now okay but would still like the old way but will be okay with just the two of us...I feel that I was tormented for wanting to change our way of life...I wanted better...the comments, the sarcasm, the [email]cr@p[/email] I got...there were days I didn't care what happen to me but I always managed to get through...

I don't reget the things that I have been through or that I've done...I strongly feel that my journey has taugh me alot...I looked at my sexual abuse as a child as a positive thing...I wouldn't be the person I am today...I chose to go to college b/c of it...LOL...a long way away from home...

I would tell DH after that I felt dirty and that I didn't enjoy it...he would let it ride for sometimes a year then next thing I knew I was back were I was again...feeling shameful...not feeling loved, respected, like a doll on a shelf only taken down and play with when it was convenient for him...

We always did our dirt together until I had my last A. It was a different rock bottom then the one I felt from his A.

So, what really pains me is the fact that I know he wants ASF and I don't like it...it's my body and I'm not comfortable with it...and I feel like I should be b/c it's something DH likes/enjoys...

Like a child I guess if they ask enough then they figure they'll get there way...

I feel like I have changed so much...I have bent with the strong gusts of wind throughout my life...I have been standing firm for the past few years not allowing a third party into my M and with ASF I wonder if I should be bending...

It like I can't get to a firm decision on it...it's something he likes...I feel like I'm not being a good wife if I don't do this...I don't mind SF but It's been a huge block for me...I would avoid sex for fear that he would touch me or try to do something else in that area to get me to have ASF with him...I would stay up late...anything to get out of SF to avoid the possibility...

It was something we did very rarely...but it was like avoiding my abuser as a child...out od sight out of mind...SF did become a chore with us...it was something I had to do every other day any longer than that and I was not being a good wife...

Hours b/f D-day, in front of a group of our friends, my drunken WH tells me that there are lots of things in life that we don't like to do but I better get use to it or their are OP out there that will do ASF...

I learned that on the third SF with OW he had ASF with her...not I'm even more disguised by it...I was his only one b/f her...I was crushed...his comment booming in my mind...

The weeks that followed D-day, I did participant in ASF but I stopped...I felt I had too and then when I started getting stronger I realized that I didn't want to or have too...

I told DH that I know he knew that I didn't like it and I felt that he didn't respect me b/c he kept asking for it...

Then, NYE, we were visiting a friend who was having a party...him and his W swing...that's find if that's what they want to do...I've said that I'm not into that anymore...

Anyway, our friend, DH, and I are standing by the fire and the friend says something...I don't remember what exactly but it was referring to swinging and third party stuff...Dh said that he was tired of asking...

I felt like once again in front of our friends he's trying to make me out to be the bad person...like he's trying to belittle me...use guilt to get me back into the life...same thing with ASF...

I have had SF with people I didn't want to, I let them do thier thing...people pleaser...that's what I was taught...do what I say...do what I want...don't fight...

I lied to my abuser said that it tickled and even had a fake laugh to go with it...what a tender age to be so grown...I've had lots of IC in my youth... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It doesn't bother me to talk about the childhood abuse anymore...I've even gone to the aid of other and have helped them with their stuff...but this stuff with DH...I need help with...

Perhaps point me in the right direction...I hope that I answered your question...I believe that there should be more romantic stuff in our M...seduction of each other...that's what I want...just not sure how to get there...

Thanks LA...I'm happy that you were with me...my heart didn't stay heavy for long...I was very busy with work and I have learned to be gentle with myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rin,

First, I am not sure if your invitation to post was open to anyone but I am hoping that you won’t object that I have chosen to take a risk… a personal one here and post to you. I am genuinely posting out of care and concern for you... you asked that those that posted to you state that so I am stating that. I care about YOU.

Let me be clear about why my posting here is limited and then if you choose that you would prefer that I don’t share with you… I’ll understand. My presence here is very offensive to many here. I can’t say I blame them. Eleven year ago I was married to my first H. I had an affair. I left that marriage. My affair partner was also married. He left his marriage. We are still together… married 8 years. I found this site when I discovered my H was having an affair in June. I was suspicious prior to that but the official D-day was June 9. We are in the process of trying to recover our M. Understandably there are many people who have chosen not to try to help me and I have come to respect their choice. But there are some here that have chosen to help me… like LA and FH for whom I am extremely grateful.

What I wanted to say to you after I read your last post is… you aren’t alone. There was a time in my life when I engaged in many risky SF behaviors. I doubt there are many people who want to air their SF laundry list. When you believe that you earn love… SF is just another tool for “earning”. When my mom died one of her good friends gave me a book by Maya Angelou … one quote of hers is “When we know better we do better.” In other words when we believed that we earned love we believed that our bodies were not sacred and were meant to be given away… (quite different from sharing your body from choice… as an expression of your love and not the same as a means of earning someone else’s love.) I think it is why LA asked me to trace my resentful feelings about SF back and look at where they might be coming from. When I look back at my own sordid laundry list (and nothing you posted regarding your past SF practices did I find shocking or shameful) maybe because I so do relate fear of abandonment and how truly that is tied to a deeper fear of intimacy… and when I had SF when I didn’t want to… because I felt it was what was required to get love it is easier to accept some of the choices I made because although obviously they were choices they didn’t feel like that then. I didn’t feel like I could choose to say no because my fear ran my life. Saying no then would have put me at risk for losing love. Now I realize that no amount of SF I ever had with someone who didn’t love me ever made them love me. They might have wanted me for the purpose of SF but the SF never in the end got me what I craved which was love… understanding… acceptance.


And even when I was in a committed loving R with someone I still didn’t really get it. Sex was my leverage… my power because I didn’t believe I was worthy in any real way. I used it as a reward and as a punishment. I think it is still happening in my own M. I think part of me feels responsible for my H’s A even though logically I know it was his choice, not mine.

I know this from finally (reading here has really helped me understand more too) acknowledging my own choice to have an A in my first M and that I have to own the utter selfishness of it. For a long time I had allowed myself to believe that I was entitled (yep I get to admit and own that… that I was selfish and in that selfishness felt entitled) to the A because I wasn’t happy… or that there were problems in the M. Becoming the BS showed me that nothing entitles us to that… nothing. If I was unhappy then, I had choices that I didn’t make… I could have worked to improve my M or I could have filed for a D instead of what I did. I get that now. I also get that I cannot go back… change the past. I can only change myself. I have no control over others or their choices and I have to own my own… even the ones I don’t like.

So you made some choices earlier in your life and in your R with your DH. You came to know that another person in your M bed wasn’t for you anymore. How did you come upon that choice? What changed for you that made you no longer wish to participate in that? It changed before your H’s A, before you became a BS… or maybe not… maybe at some point in your M you began to see that allowing someone else to be intimately involved with you as a couple was not healthy for your R. Just because it wasn't a behind your back A... doesn't minimize the impact of it. Is it possible that even then… even when you said okay to it that a part of you was never really okay with it? I wonder if maybe it gave you a false sense of power… you know life sexual power… I can give him this and most woman won’t therefore I have something to offer that they don’t and this will make him love me more. If I don't give him this will he leave me for someone who will? I know that I have used sex (well I thought I was in charge maybe but deeper down I see that instead I was shortchanging myself because I didn’t believe I had enough other gifts to offer.) to try to control, soothe, medicate.

I look back at my M and ways in which I have compromised my own self because I was scared that I wasn’t enough. If I asked for help around the house then I was weak… if I couldn’t do it all then I was nothing. Those choices to try to be everything to him were for who? Were they for him or were they really for me… because I didn’t have another way to think about it because I was so locked into the belief that I had to earn love.

I was watching an episode of the A&E show Intervention... a man named Ed Curran, the CEO of a treatment facility in Taos, NM said this which I found hauntingly truthful. He said, "Addictions are all about medicating feelings. That's what we have addictions for. And addicts know that it works every time... so imagine trying to get rid of it." There is only one way to get rid of addictions Rin, LA... we know this. The only way to truly recover from any addiction is to face the core feelings we don't want to feel. But that is really the only way out of our self-destructive behaviors. Addictions thrive in the cloak of secrecy. To own up and face what you are... to share requires so much courage. You are so very courageous.

I have followed several of your threads and I remember when you were done... ready to file for a D... but you didn't. You stayed... you stayed and have continued to grow by leaps and bounds... because of your honesty... with yourself and with others.

My A with my H was my last risky SF behavior. Although we don't have SA in our marriage... at least I don't think we do (we have plenty of other addiction issues <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) and I have enjoyed SF with my H... very much there still lies an undercurrent of what is blocking me from getting what I really want.

You are NOT alone... many are on this journey with you. I just wanted you to know that.

I just finished reading your second post to Marsh on this and now see that what you are talking about is ASF. Rin if you don't like... that is okay. If you really don't like it then you really don't like it not your thing... perfectly okay. Not my thing either. You have a right in your M to feel safe during SF... doing something that you really don't want to do just because your H likes it... isn't a healthy boundary for you. It isn't like you are witholding something from him that you enjoy just because you can... to punish or when you do to reward him (I know I have done SF things that I didn't want to do... allowed my body to be used against my wishes so I get this and the fear that if I didn't go along with it I would be left.) but Rin it doesn't sound to me at all like this is what you are doing. Sounds more like because you know yourself better and are more comfortable in your own skin that you are OWNING what you do and do not want to do sexually. That the real you doesn't want to do it and the real you feels strong enough in your own skin to say that aloud. It would be different if you liked it and were manipulating him with it but I don't hear one ounce of that in your post at all.

Rin - you don't have to earn your H's love with ASF. You are worthy of his love just because you're you. It is your body and your choice... respect your choice not to. He can choose to make comments at parties. Seems to me he's lashing out because he's angry or maybe afraid that he can no longer control you... convince you to do something that you don't want to do...because it is something that he maybe was used to doing in the past. Is it possible he is making these comments at the party because he thinks if he can make you feel less than for not satisfying his every SF whim that you will react out of fear like you have in the past and give in. Does he put you down as a way to control you? Is this an old pattern... an old way for him to get something he wants from you that you don't want? Just thinking outloud here... wait I just reread and seems like you are saying it is. It's okay... sweet girl, you are not 9 years old anymore and you don't have to do what hurts you to keep the peace. Is H attracted to the 9 year old girl in you that will submit?

I don't think there is a thing wrong with the 2 people in a M doing whatever (exclusively... not a third party involved) they BOTH enjoy but sex is not like scrubbing the toilet or taking out the garbage or some other task that one of you really might not like to do so the other one does it. SF, especially for woman is allowing another person into (literally) our body. Can you be RH with him about this without any LB's or shaming him for liking it? I really like to it when we do X Y and Z. I want to us both to enjoy SF and I no longer feel comfortable with ASF. I am open to exploring new and creative ways of SF with you in a way that we both feel comfortable.

Can you say (and LA may know a clearer way to say this) I have participated in ASF with you in the past because I felt that I had to earn your love. I was scared that if I didn't that you might leave me or that you might love me less. I now know that I don't have to earn your love... that your loving me is your choice and my loving you is my choice. I don't know exactly the right words to say to express this to him without any LB's but I do think that your body is yours and what you do with it is also your choice... good self care to own what you don't want anymore and to be proud of yourself for knowing your truth about this.

((((JJ))))

Thank you for taking your time to post to me. Regardless of your history, I admire and respect you. Thank you for repeating my request...I am open to hearing from anyone who is willing to support me...I firmly belive that we all do the best that we can with the tools that we have...as many I was limited and now know better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am grateful for your POV and the questions that you thought to ask, as well as observations. WOW!

I think that I'm might still be trying to work out the earn love thing...I'll have to visit that idea when I have some time alone...I don't think that I really have that concept striaght in my mind but I'm working on it...I've got a good idea that I'm headed in the right direction... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I appreciated you sharing your experiences with me. It's always great to be validated, to know that you are not alone.


Same here, this is one of the things that I realized that I was doing with FWH and have stopped my part. Now, if I don't want to have SF, it's b/c I don't feel connected...a must to get connected...

I wanted to let you know that you are not the only one in that boat...DH will say something about SF and I like turn in the other direction...just the mention of it and I don't want to do it SOMETIMES...

I did look at SF as a chore too, even DH has admitted that also. We have even talked about how many times a week we would each like to have SF. Dh would gladly accept everyday but is happy with three or four times a week. I am happy with three or four times a week.

Any extra and that's lagniappe! Have you discussed how many times a week the two of you would be happy with? Just a thought!

Well, first, I stopped using pot to make me feel "better". I started not liking the way it made me feel, then, DWH (this is years ago) would tell me that I needed to go smoke one and calm down...I feel like that's what he wanted...me to be out of my mind so I couldn't think straight...

Then, once sober, the SF was great...I felt good but then it had the same effect...so I tried to stop that too...but the pressure I felt from FWH was horrible for me...looking back I can see how I was slowly developing my self-esteem...

I also had my kids as motivation...wanted to do better by them...for them...for me...I was looking for a way to be happy without that stuff in my life...I turned my focus onto my kids and derived joy from that...

I've fought suidical thoughts my whole life (never attempted, but I did have a problem with cutting myself which I have stopped and am proud) and have a will be do better started changing...here I am today feeling better than I ever have...still a little anxiety from time to time...no panic attacks...no feeling like I'm the crazy one...

I've had lots of IC in my life and right now I really don't feel like I need it, but am open to it in the future should something change with me...I feel very confident in allowing myself to grow...


I was trying to change things b/f my A...with mine I realized that it wasn't a way of life that I wanted...I really started speaking up but was still unsure of myself...fearful...but ended most everything...I did see the damage that it was causing and I felt like I was begging for it to be just me and him...

The night that I confessed my A, this was a big topic, I wanted it to be just the two of us and FWH told me that he would not be happy with that...I was fearful that he would leave...I did things I resented...b/c I didn't want to participant, I wouldn't and I would let him...

It was almost like I was giving up...I felt beaten down all to often...I knew what he was doing I was there...his A behind my back was the last straw for me...I will not be treated like this anymore...if that means that my M ended down the road...so be it...I will feel that I have done my best...I will know that I have done my best...

After posting yesterday and hearing my FWH speak to me this morning...I'm certain that I am dealing with emotional and verbal abuse...very seldom does he say things in front of OP...usually this occurs when he is mad and he is trying to get his way...

I am learning the pattern now b/c I am now enabling his behavior like I use to...he tries to make me feel guilty, like I am less of a person, but those days are long gone...

like this morning, I just repeat to myself...focus on you, not on him...over and over until I do...


I think yes...presently there is no POJA on everything b/c he's so use to getting his way...NO MC...not an option...I'm the one that's unhappy with myself and FWH thinks there's nothing wrong with him...HIS WORDS, NOT MINE...


Thank you with this and the other things that you said this sovles the issue for me...it's okay to say no...I'm okay for saying no...

Uh, I feel tired from thinking now...but my hearts not heavy this morning...no lump in my throat... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I woke up to a bump in the road this morning...am trying to clear my head so that I can take some action...I know that he was reating to what I say to him and was trying to draw me in with hurtful words...

I ended the conversation quick to remove myself b/f I said anything else...I told him that I would not call his boss saying that I couldn't get in touch with DH about our son's parent/teacher meeting this morning...that was his stuff...he got mad... I said that I wouldn't lie for him like he lied to his SF last night...

FIL popped into town unexpectedly and FWH said that he had a meeting to go to when he when to bike night with his friends. FIL left early this morning and FWH called to see if his SD was upset. So, that's what started it.

JJ, you are amazing...you have great insight...I look forward to your posts...hehe...almost as much as LA's... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Just a little sense of humor...trying to get a smile out of someone...I am! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA and JJ...

How do I keep up my endures? I think that's the important question...how do I determine when enough is enough?

I'm to the point now that should he go...he goes...yes, I think that it will be tough but I can make it through that too!