JJ,

Hello to terrified...an unsustainable signal...we can't live in it minute to minute...thanking God we cannot do this as humans. It comes and go. Know the terror comes and goes.

"I have been working on my response to your last post for the last week... I wanted to say (I know you won't assume that I was choosing not to answer the questions in it... I am just learning to find my voice (this is what IC tells me I seem to be trying to do.)"

Finding your own voice...knowing it is already there...is essential to accepting who you really are and another act, I believe, in dismantling self-image. Bravo.

And yes, I trust you to post when you choose to...I don't feel abandoned...and my privilege remains in your sharing with me...even sharing your journey to discover your voice.

No post perfection here, 'k?

"I am really wrestling with a very big decision regarding my IC right now. She asked me to do something that I am not sure whether I want to do right now or not. If I choose not to do what she wants me to do she feels she cannot continue treating me ethically because part the particular issue is one she feels she isn't qualified to help me with. This decision will require a FULL disclosure to my medical doctor and signing a medical waiver so that they can exchange information."

I wonder if the time's up on this decision already...and what you decided.

And what was God's message in it all.

"I have the option of complying with her condition.... starting treatment with another therapist (if I choose that I KNOW I will choose NOT to disclose this information in therapy ever again. (I know I said ever... it's how I feel right now... might not be true later... but right now it is.) I can choose to stop therapy altogether (probably not the best option... nevertheless a choice)."

I see this as an honesty issue...which is the crux of all therapy, btw...how honest...a measure of...are you willing to be for yourself, your marriage and your family?

"On Sunday, when she told me this in my session that ran an hour and 45mins (usually an hour) this topic came up about 30 minutes in. I broke down and when I was crying and crying she asked how I was feeling right then. I didn't say anything and she said JJ tell me what you are feeling... I said (I think I might of actually almost hissed the words) Do you really want to know? She said yes, I do. I said... I feel controled and abandonded. She said she could see how I could feel that way and that isn't what she wanted to do that she wanted to keep working with me but ethically she felt I needed medical supervision for the addiction related issue."

You ran into the inner conflict...established trust in someone and then felt betrayed...is that correct? Because when she brought her issue into play, you went to where you've gone all your life...if you have issues with me, then you don't care...and you DJ'd others all your life by believing they didn't care...not knowing is not caring...all about you, your failures, ownership as blame...great thing to know about yourself. She was struggling with her own issue, in regards to you, which meant her giving you her best resulted in an internal struggle for her...not you making her.

She had to own her limitations...and that sounded to you like she was unwillinging, caring or concerned...when the very bravery to disclose and own her limitations was an act of love...human to human. Did you hear, "I am limited and unwillinging to go where I may fail" in her statement? That she didn't want to lose, so she was going to cut you loose? Can you hear, instead, that she needed your highest honesty as much as you did, to progress?

"She said she wouldn't be hurt or take personally if I chose not to continue with her. I told her I was unwilling to make that choice right there that day in IC. She scheduled another appt. for me to see her and let her know my choice. At first I didn't even want to schedule a session until I made up my mind and said I would call her."

Very aware of your reactivity here, again...and that's great, don't you think?

"She asked if she could just call me and check in with me."

Big respect...her saying what she was willing to do, in light of you believing her unwilling. Know both sides...the all of stuff, JJ. Our child only sees one way...makes it truth...heightens our reactivity...our adult sees the all...

"I feel very threatened... terrified really about all of this. There is a risk involved with a full disclosure to my doctor who I like and trust very much... as much as I trust people which I again see isn't very much."

Risk of losing what, exactly? I remember you saying you were really honest with your GP about your meds...and asking for aid in reducing, overcoming...through your honesty. Are you saying that wasn't true? That you were only mostly honest?

And the same for your shrink? I got confused here.

"I feel like I have to chose between losing my doctor or my therapist. I know I am choosing to try to predict what MIGHT happen..."

When you feel controlled and abandoned...look inside first. Are you believing you're in control of others, when you know you are not? Of yourself? Are you abandoning yourself...or your previous choices now seen as abandonment...in truth or feeling? Trace the feeling, know the truth.

"I know I am doing it but in that session during my breakdown I vocalized that I felt like running away from my whole life right then... getting in my car and just leaving. I choose not to do that but there is a part of me that really wants to run.... run run."

Running from self is often this visualization...it is where we reject US and see us rejecting our lives...it's a signal to say, gently, "Turn to me. I'm not a monster. I am chasing you...so we can be one."

You are you...you have parts...and if you are unaware, they war, fight, can terrify each other...all to soothe you...from love...false, from true love. You're nothing to run from, JJ. You know that. Re-seat yourself in what you truly know...and be open to be aware...none of your parts define your whole...you remain, whole. Know it.

"I do not like any of the options truthfully. I did discuss this with my husband and I am grateful that he did not try to tell me what to do. He just listened and said he could understand how I felt. He said he would support whatever choice I made."

HUGE...you were brave and shared...and he was brave and listened. You were focused on options, not images...share you running from self...your terror...in owning all your choices, from a lifetime...can feel overwhelming. KNOW it isn't overwhelming...we cannot drown or be crushed by our past...or future. Be present.

"With my IC, I felt very much like I do with my dad... he presents me with appear to be choices and that no matter what I choose there isn't a right or wrong choice when there is"

Here is your belief you can be tricked...when your adult self can't be...except by self. Change your words...there isn't a right or wrong choice...there is healthy (goes towards your goal) and an unhealthy one (gives false protection and goes against your goal)...give yourself the option to believe not in being tricked here...change the words to change the big picture. Mixing up approval for acceptance...

"... might say there isn't but experience with my dad tells me that the choice he would make is the RIGHT choice."

Add reality to the end of that statement, "RIGHT choice for him."

Only you can insert reality...adding time (now) and ownership (his, mine).

"I felt like this with IC too... like choices were being presented but really there is a right choice."

Could this be where you shut out respect? If you choose to believe there is right and wrong choices...making YOU a right or wrong person, then that will continue to be your experience...entirely from your own choice. Please choose differently.

"This is one where I feel like no matter what I chose I will lose someone in the process. I don't like that feeling at all."

Every choice you've made in life has been like this...losing means you had the control of keeping...and you don't. They choose to be with you or not...you don't like your previous choices making your present with other choices in it, either...they do. The ones you make today will either expand or contract your future choices. There's no perfection. There is only your highest goal today...to live from and experience your highest truth right now...which expands and amplifies your life...or not.

Being true to ourselves first, is what you make your choices from. Not from fear...of loss. Others choose their involvement in our lives...and our choice remains in allowing their extent, presence...respecting their choices.

To do that, we first must respect our own.

I do that by relying on God's wisdom...if I choose my highest honesty, being open to what comes and goes from my life, knowing God doesn't leave...and through others, presence or loss of presence, I learn, grow and gain...what have I to fear?

Highest honesty, truest self...all new...only way to live, not cope...to respect, not manipulate...takes us out of making and into being...you can do this.

"I know my IC cannot by law disclose anything I have said in therapy to anyone including my doctor but I am not sure if I even trust that she won't. I also know that that is about me and not her."

I know you know...and that running from our highest honesty isn't a real fear...it's a false one. You will not be killed for being known as you really are...you will not be abandoned for knowing and being known for who you really are...and you will NOT be wrong for knowing and being known for who you really are...you will be changed.

"It is even more complicated because she is also the wife of the pastor of the church we attend. My old self would have thought this one out better and not risked putting the two so closely together. And I know my child is speaking in that statement too."

You can't lose what you didn't have...and you have no control over others' stuff...a reminder here...what they think, feel, believe and perceive is theirs...not The Truth of you...Their truth. Re-seat yourself. In reality.

"I have an appt. with my doctor on Friday. It was scheduled before my IC appt. and IC said I could make another appt. after this one if I felt Friday was too soon as it didn't give me a lot of time to choose."

You'll find the only thing that takes time in choosing is manipulation...our desire to manipulate events, people and ourselves to protect ourselves. This is why owning we are always vulnerable (always is warranted) frees us from even considering NOT choosing from our highest honesty.

"I felt unsure about whether I wanted to share this with you but I chose to anyway. I am terrified of what you are going to say and I am telling you anyway.

I am terrified."

Are you terrified now?

Where did your terror come from...what was it signalling? That secretly, LA is judging you? Is it your perspective people will trick, judge, leave? Does that not give you that exact experience in life?

Are you tricking yourself through these machinations? Juding and leaving yourself? Come home, JJ...you are not a monster...you can't be. You are a human...who craves controlling for protection...and you have BEEN abandoned, killed, and annihilated many times in your life...and you exist, live and are significant, anyway.

Get used to it.

LA

LA,

Thanks for responding.


Yes, the original time's up has come and gone and yes I made a decision. I chose not to tell my doctor one thing.

I guess to answer your question I have only been mostly honest. I didn't feel like I was being mostly honest at the time that I disclosed to her that I felt I had a problem with my meds and wanted to try to get off them. There was one thing I didn't disclose to her regarding the pain meds and this is where the issue lies.

I was honest with my shrink about ALL of it. So the problem isn't that I haven't told my doctor it is about a particulary unsavory detail that I don't want to tell her. So I guess again mostly honest which isn't good enough.

The issue is about how many pain meds my doctor prescribes per month for me versus how many I was actually taking. I told you how many I had been taking previously... no doctor in their right mind would prescribe that amount. The amount my doctor prescribes would be consistant with my medical condition... however even at that amount a person could become dependent/addicted. People on pain management programs know that over time that you can develop what is known as tolerance... (addicts of any substance I would guess do too...)

Rather than tell my doctor that then... when it first started happening...tolerance that is (when the problem was still physical... and definitely before I made the real connection between it making me feel better emotionally too. Initially, I think I believed that I felt better emotionally because my physical pain was better.) I started taking more and then subsequently ran out of refills before what would have been an appropriate amount of time.

Two things happened then. The first thing was I went through my first first cold turkey withdrawal. I was very sick and was in bed for several days. My H, not wanting to see me like this... looked for an alternative. He found one. This is the unsavory part. I don't hold my H accountable for this at all... I made my own choices. If anything I felt guilty because this alternative also allowed my H to get addicted. I know that it was his choice to do what he did and my choice to do what I did.

The second thing that happened was that my doctor started questioning me about why I was going through my refills so fast. I told her that it was no longer controlling my pain sufficiently. She said we needed to look at other alternatives... (i.e. oxycontin or the fentnyl patch) but I was terrified to use those meds. Terrified of oxycontin since I had heard so much about the abuse of it and how addictive it was. I am not sure why I was worried about them when I already knew that I was physically addicted to the other. After going through the w/d's ... I knew my body was hooked. I think I thought it was the lesser of two evils and that I could probably get the other under control.

So I told my doctor (yes, I lied to her then) that I would try to take what she was prescribing as directed and go back to physical therapy... and have another MRI. New MRI showed four herniated discs... original showed 2.

A second brain scan showed no brain tumors so my origial diagnosis for migraine was correct. By this time newer and better migraine meds were just coming on the market (triptans... immitrez, zomig, maxalt etc.) I had some good success with maxalt... however because of the frequency of my headaches I was not able to take maxalt for all of them. Although maxalt isn't addictive at all, but there is the risk of stroke or heart attack. Since by this time I had found my birth mother and families medical history... and heart related issues were heriditary it was with caution that I was to use this med. I didn't appear to have any problem with heart related issues and the maxalt, there was still risk involved and so I was limited to the number of maxalt I could take per week and was to use pain meds as a back-up method.

Over time we came up with a migraine cocktail that worked pretty well most of the time. A combination of several meds together that addressed the vomting as well as the headache itself. Migraine is also heriditary and I learned that birth mother and her father, and my bio brother also suffered from migraine.

I didn't want to tell her that I had found an "alternative" source for obtaining pain meds. This was where my dependence shifted to full blown addiction. I wasn't "doctor" shoppping or anything like that... it was a black market source. No, I am not proud of this and no I don't want to tell my doctor that. That is the what I am unwilling to disclose.

At some point, I started to connect that the correlation between pain relief and meds was not just physical relief of pain but also emotional. It took me a long time to be really honest even with myself about this. My physical pain issues had not gone away but by this point I was totally overmedicating for those and knew I was medicating emotionally as well. It spiraled down. It bothered me (way before therapy) and I tried to cut back/quit on several occasions unsuccessfully. I think partly because I wasn't committed then.

When I finally got serious about it... around late summer/ early fall... (still prior to IC) I put myself on my own taper program and made good progress getting from where I was down to about a third to a fourth of what I had been taking. I have had some setbacks along the way but have remained committed to getting off. In other words I didn't give up and just go back to doing what felt easier. I am not saying I never felt like it... just that I still remain committed.

When I started IC, I disclosed this to my therapist and over also the part about the alternative source. IC encouraged me to discuss my desire to get off this med and a couple others (the anti anxiety... these were not ever obtained anywhere else than from my doctor and so dose I was on was what my doctor had prescribed and she was in full awareness of how much etc.)

So there is where the MOSTLY honest is. I didn't want to disclose the other alternative source to my doctor. I still don't... I think my IC doesn't believe that I can stop without telling my doctor the other. I don't agree. I do think I can. IC self disclosed that her sister had been addicted to meth and cocaine and could not get off without several stays in rehab. I am not sure what her sister has to do with me and why she told me unless her belief is (based on her sister's experience) that no one can stop without full blown medical supervision. I didn't think to ask her at the time she disclosed this to me (last session)why she told me this. Maybe it doesn't matter why she told me.

Maybe it is good that IC pushed me... makes me want to push my own recovery harder. My reasons for not wanting to tell my doctor about the alternative source are pride, shame, guilt, and fear. I am willing to start going to meetings. I don't know if this will be enough for my IC. The options were to tell my doctor the other or check into rehab. We had discussed previously me going to meetings but I hadn't done that either. So I am willing to that whether or not it changes anything with my IC.

I know I am being stubborn and a chickenbutt about this. My last post was mostly my child and my uncontrolled fear speaking.

The idea of "mostly" honest hurt. Guess sometimes what they say is true... truth hurts. It is also said the truth will set you free. Since I am still learning how to seperate what is my truth, others truth, and the truth...mostly truth... and since I have felt truth (not saying it is true because I don't know if it is or not or just my perception) as painful... still finding out about this. So that is where I am in this. I am going to push myself harder to get off with or without IC. I believe I can do this whether or not anyone else believes I can. Since I am really the only one that change this... it is going to have to come from me anyway. Maybe I am being stupid or naive to believe that I can do it but I still believe I can.

Thanks... for being YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hadn't thought about it quite like that before but am willing to look at that deeper. RH as a measure of how much I am willing to be there for self, M, and family... hmmmmmn. It hurts to think that I am not being there for my M or family... really does.

Don't know the answer to that yet... I don't think I have been quieted internally enough to hear. Am willing to listen...


Yes, that part is correct.

Interesting and "mostly" true. I don't think that if someone disagrees with me that they don't care or if they have issues with me that they don't care. I know my parents care about me... have really not doubted that they cared. Doesn't mean I didn't fear they would leave if I didn't do what I thought they thought was right... because I did/ still do that. More about me then them huh?

Ownership as blame... goes back to judging I believe. I accept that I did not make her make her choice. I also believe that her choice is based in what she feel is best for me. Still felt like her "giving up" on me. And that would go back to a long held belief that I am just too hard to deal with... baggage overload. Speaks to what I still believe (trying to move away from this belief...am not there yet) that I am unworthy... and therefore worthy of giving up on. It is a huge DJ to others and also to self because I too deep down believe that I am worth giving up on.

Okay... I respect she had to own her limitations. I am not mad at her anymore... I see what she felt she needed to do. I know that I can feel mad at someone and still believe they care about me. I felt it was more of a CYA on her part but I have moved past my initial feeling about it.


I can hear you saying this... I can imagine this is what she might actually be saying. If this in fact is the truth...I am looking at it but am still afraid. My "mostly" honest is not gonna be good enough. I feel like I make progress only to find that my progress is not good enough...my attempts at honesty are half hearted at best is this correct? This is not what you said.. I know that. It is what it felt like.

I don't mean to DJ you and I apologize for doing it. It has to do with my own fear (I know you didn't do or say anything to make me feel afraid... the fear is in me) that you too will give up on me... you'll also see me for what I really am and it won't be good enough. (Crimeny that is a huge DJ to you... sorry I am not showing you the respect I have for you in this.)

I see her awareness and I give her credit for expecting this might happen...says she has heard me. I am not able to say great yet. Doesn't feel great. Feels like chess... and she's the better player. Able to anticipate my next move... while I am not able to anticipate hers. Truth is I wasn't trying to anticipate... feels vulnerable and like in trust I let my guard down and didn't expect this to happen (guess I had a hidden expectation there too) like I should (I know I know stop shoulding) have predicted... which I am trying not to do in an effort to stay in present. Feels like a cut... for staying in present. I know you have said that you have an issue with the word protect... but I still have trouble feeling like I can or cannot protect myself... still feel like I want to... or at least try to.

My child wanted to tell her no... broke trust... we're done. I will no longer grant you ANT access to me in any way. Adult said okay... I'll talk to you. Child wants to punish... run... retreat as far away from her as possible. Feels she is dangerous now when I know that is only fear speaking.

Feels like "tough love" approach. One a C tried with me and my mom when I was 12 and having a identity crisis. Tough loves feels like abandonment to me. I am not saying it is truth just how it feels to me.

I am processing through some of my feelings about my mom and her decision to move away when I was about 21. Felt like serious abandonment even if it wasn't. I see a pattern in myself. When this happened I felt really hurt. In a false attempt to protect myself from further hurt I pushed my mom away. I didn't break contact altogether with her but I did push her away some and made her come to me in attempt to hurt less. This went on until I was about 29 when she moved back where I was living. Still emotionally distanced myself.

When I knew that she was going to die... I let her back in but still was fighting against knowing she was going to die and I was going to lose her forever. Being there on the bed with her when she died... pleading with her... mommy don't go while others were telling her it was okay for her to go... end her suffering... was I being selfish. I don't know... feel like one of the realest and most honest moments of my life... and I did allow myself to feel it. I still feel it. I still want my mommy back. Both my child and my adult want her. I don't know if I will ever stop wanting her back. Is it wrong to want something that you know can't happen? Is it destructive to me to miss her like that?

I wonder if it is like with my birth mother... as a baby crying inconsolably for her at first and then realizing that she wasn't coming back... acceptance of what is but still a longing for her.

Why I don't let people into my inner circle and when I do will hang on for dear life. If it appears they might leave then quickly seperating first to protect. Doesn't work... it is really only a distraction. Or at least that is what I choose to believe it is now. My R with my H is really the first R (other than with my parents) where I have chosen to stay anyway... stay without trust. Choosing love over fear.

No, I want to control others but I have accepted that I cannot. Control for me is about trying to feel safe. It doesn't work... I believed for a long time that it did work but I see how it doesn't. Control of self though I don't know... if I am not in control of myself... then who is? I think I am confused here. I believe I should (there's that word again) be in control of myself. In charge of my choices, actions, beliefs, REactions (learning there is a difference between choosing how I will act vs. REact which assumes the postition that there isn't a choice... that our actions are controlled by what others do. Like if my H says something and I feel cut than I REact to what he said instead of choosing to act on my truth seperate from what his truth is.) There is a big learning curve here for me. I feel like I have REacted my whole life... like it is what I know how to do. Choosing to see it differently in theory is different from trying to live in doing it. Does this even make sense?

Are you saying that it feels like abandonment(the feeling) but the truth is that it isn't... just the feeling? I really want to understand this but I don't feel like I am getting it here. When I trace the feeling... it feels like abandonment but the truth is that isn't really what is happening... it just feels like that to me.

I don't believe I have ever really been able to abandon myself no matter how much I tried or thought I could. Wherever I go... I am always there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> might be deep down, pushed down, distracted and diverted but I cannot run away from myself. I think truth for me is I cannot leave myself even if I want to. I see only one way to truly abandon self and that is suicide. I am not going to commit suicide... so I am still here for myself.

I guess what I am getting at is that I will always (and in this case I think always is truth) be there for myself. Does that mean I will always be there for myself in a healthy way... nope not what I am saying... just that I am still there underneath it all no matter how far I try to run away from myself.

We have had several more conversations about this since the first one. Yesterday, I talked to him about my fear, my withdrawing, feeling depressed. He asked if there was anything he could do to support me (said he knows he can't fix me... I guess I have stated that so many times that he knows I will say... you can't fix me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> guess he really has been listening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I shared that I feel like I am overwhelmed and it bothers me that I feel like I cannot keep up with things around the house. He stated that he feels like the inner work I am doing is more important than housework and then offered to do more around the house which he already has been doing anyway and would I please try to stop feeling so guilty about this.

After a fight a couple weeks ago... one in which I attempted to use I statements and some big DJ's and LB's on both our parts we were able to come back to the discussion and discuss the issues.

As a result of the fight where he made the comment one of the biggest issues in our M is SF and then he said that it is because YOUR daughter is sleeping in our bed. I REacted in anger and put DD in her own bed that night where she has been sleeping ever sense. While my original motivation was anger when I was able to remove the DJ from what H said and hear what was really saying which is I would like for our DD to sleep in her own bed I felt better about it because it is what I want too.

That original fight also brought about some feelings about SF for him. H stated that he felt that I was less responsive to SF than I was right after D-day and that I was all over him when I was terrified he would leave me but now that I feel safer that I have backed off in SF. While yes, SF has been occuring less frequently now it has more to do with me feeling disconnected from him because we haven't been getting our UA time and less about me feeling terrified or not terrified that he will leave me. I see though that our truths are different. He believes that I wanted more SF with him as a way of preventing him from leaving and not as my truth which was that I was feeling closer to him when we spent that much UA time together.

Later I was able to tell him how I felt when he said that. I felt fearful... like he was threatening with if I didn't shape up that he would go out and have another A. My fear is also not his truth. Just because he is frustrated with SF doesn't mean that he is going to go outside the M to get it. I was able to ask him if he intended to go outside and he said no.

There are a couple of things that I am going to ask him about that I don't really want to ask but I going to anyway. One is about a porn site that is in my scroll down history to websites I have visited... since I know that I didn't go there and DD didn't that leaves only him because SS never uses my computer to my knowledge. He has his own. I am a bit confused about this. I am not shocked that he went to a porn site. I don't know exactly how I feel about it.

I don't know if I accept that I cannot be tricked... in this instance yes, I think I have mixed up approval for acceptance. I see what you are saying here. But I still think I can be tricked in other ways... betrayed... lied to... cheated on and that feels like trickery. But when I look back to what I believed to be true and when my H was trying to convince me that I was crazy about his A... when he was still making it seem like I was just jealous or untrusting... felt like I was being tricked then but more like I wanted to believe him so I tried to trick self so I wouldn't have to see what I already knew was true... that indeed he was having an A. No matter how hard he tried to trick me then... he still could not because I knew in my heart that he was lying. I didn't want to believe it but I in fact did know it down deep. Which is why I couldn't let it go until the truth did finally come out.

So I guess that would speak to my own willingness or unwillingness to choose to try to believe or not believe in a lie.

This will mean that I will need to be aware of when I am choosing right or wrong... black or white. Sometimes I don't see it in the moment but can see it later in processing. Goes back to REacting, blaming, judging?


Would this be what internal conflict feel like?


There is only your highest goal today... to live from and experience your highest truth right now... right now I feel like a disaster. I see where I have not been totally honest which supports that I lack integrity. I feel like a failure.

Okay... I thought I was being honest with myself. I do get the part about others making their own choices about involvement in our lives. I also know that others can say I choose to remain in your life if you choose this and not in your life if you don't. I get it... they are handing the choice back to me and saying you choose.

I admire this about you LA. Your ability to move forward anyway... has living in your highest honesty ever cost you the presence of someone in your life? If so who and how did you deal with it if it wasn't someone who you wanted out of your life?

I am grappling to see the full picture here... all sides... whole self... all the parts and stay in that.

I am going to print this out and hang it on the mirror... this reminder. I need to remind myself of this often... everyday.

Yep, and I chose to manipulate... didn't think that was what I was doing but see that it was. Maybe this is why I don't like to feel like others are manipulating me... seems like saying pot meet kettle.

Only of giving up on myself.

No... more like LA will give up on me too. Not about you I know it's about me. Are you saying that our experience is based on our perspective? If we think something is going to happen then it will? If I believe that people will trick, judge, and leave that they in fact will do just that? If I believe they won't then because I choose to believe that than it won't happen? Somehow I don't think I got that point either?

Had to look up what machinations means... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Like self stabbing. The part of your post that really brought me to tears was the three little words... come home JJ. Not sure exactly why that had so much impact on me but it did. Maybe because that is the core of it all... finding my way home.

Thank you...for all of it... for your fearlessness... your ability to discern that which is yours and not yours, for acknowledging that we can come home. For showing me that it is possible because of who you are.

PS

I ordered four new books. They are:

The Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav (my h requested this one as one he would like to read.)

Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix (I have been wanting to read this one for awhile but my reading list just keeps getting longer and longer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Coming Home to Self: The Adopted Child Grows Up by Nancy Newton Verrier. This is the sequel (Are they called sequels when they are non-fiction self help books?)

Journey of the Adopted Self: A Quest for Wholeness
Betty Jean Lifton

JJ,

From the bottom to the top of your post...I'm reversing on ya.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've read the first two books you ordered...and if Hendrix resonates with you as he did with me, I think you're gonna love his book...and see life very differently.

And I call them sequels...don't know the accepted term...we just agree on what we call them ourselves.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're welcome...for anything and everything you get out of my posts...please note that's you getting...taking...not all me, not all you...half and half...you are half of any relationship on the planet...and so am I. See how equal we are, being human?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Notice your own fearlessness...highest honesty here. Do not leave out self-acknowledgement...your choice to do so is critical to lessening this fear...the one of giving up on yourself. You cannot humanly give up on yourself without CHOOSING to do so...please know that. Then the fear drops...oh, yeah...in my control, not others. No one can make you...you choose.

Remind yourself, JJ...part of coming home is being home...and we do that again and again through reminding, recommitting, in our self-nourishment there is acknowledgment, acceptance, validation and choice...relax into your power and limits.

Machinations...our lies to others and to self...that's how I define it...like that you looked it up. I haven't used it before...it's been lurking for awhile in my brain, though...I take it like those tiny bits of self-deception...when rationalization seems like reasoning...and it's not.

When you choose a perspective of believing others have the power to trick you...then you will perceive them as doing so, and thus have that experience. When you consciously choose where to place your trust, know that half is yours, and half is there's...then you don't feel deceived...you see where they chose to lie, betray, etc...and see it as theirs...not your choice. You're not stupid for their choices. You can't be. No trick there. You were fully aware you had no control...couldn't cause them to choose differently, nor cure them of the consequences...not tricked. Conscious...aware...of your expectations, choices and actions...yours.

Is that clearer? When we choose the perspective of abandonment, rejection...we experience it whether it is happening or not...change your perspective...like you have throughout the post...oh, you say, others choose to be involved with me or not...not me, them...their choice. I have the same choice. Okay...not abandoning or rescuing...connecting, disconnecting, reconnecting...your perceptions matter hugely to how you experience life...choose them wisely.

This is difficult to do right now given you are feeling reactive...haven't revoked that permission all the way down to react instead of act...and you're working on it...relates to security/safety...something deep within you...permitting to you when your fear or pain reach a certain level, then you allow yourself to react, not act.

Sounds human to me. First, we don't know about permissions...and when we do, we set our minds to revoke those which permit actions we don't believe in any longer...Second, we don't know how far down (or up) these permissions go...so blanket revocation doesn't really work. We have to work through them...know their breadth, heighth and depth before we convince brain to really change the previously permissible.

Takes time, awareness and dedication to the belief these are not what we want...they are self-deception and we no longer want a dishonest or disrespectful life. Brain won't be convinced (since this has been working, a reinforced desire for a lifetime) instantly, without replacing the basic desire...to live from, in and about truth...to live in our highest honesty. Through awareness, not judgment.

Then brain begins to join in the retraining...has something to react from...brain truly does react...we slow the process with awareness so that we do not react...

Finding our way home to ourselves...I had tears when I wrote it...my were of passionate desire for this to be your experience...as it was mine. I asked you to flip stuff over...when you thought others didn't care, ask yourself if you were caring for self? Not by trying to control others to stay in your life (tells self that self isn't worthy alone...isn't complete)...not by manipulating (tells self same thing)...not by not owning all your choices and actions...(tells self that self is bad, wrong, defective and that what others think means more than what self thinks)...same for abandonment...are you abandoing self? Can you hear all the ways you may do this, subtly, in your choice of perspective, perception and beliefs?

First, you gotta choose to believe you have a home. I didn't know to begin there...which is why knowing through God's hands, he created me whole, complete, not defective...as he did everyone on the planet...gave me the dimensions of my home inside...enough to hold me...equal and separate from everyone. Not separate from God. His creation.

Knowing I had a home to find inside myself...didn't have to make a new one, helped me to distinguish when I was acting from self-image (manipulation) or authentic self...and staying aware...not to bash or judge...just be aware of what the difference felt like...through my signals...

You didn't even know you had a home, JJ. Not really. You're getting there...and I think you want to truly believe you have one before you sit in it honestly.

You can identify your child easily now...next step is to identify when you are acting from your child in your decisions, instead of your adult...

All part of your walk home, I promise.

Back to choosing your perspective...you can choose to believe you drive people away, force abandonment, wear them out, overwhelm (like they have no choice but to run)...and you will experience that. Will it be real? No way. Can't be, can it? You have no control over others beyond the influence THEY allow, their limits...you just can't. Get used to it. This is critical to your wholeness to really, get...and hear those inner tapes playing...telling you that you are too much, have done too much...and you are a burden. Hear them, identify them, bless them and let go of them...acknowledge and let go...because they are not yours...they are what you heard and chose to believe...before you knew you had a choice to believe.

People choose to stay or go...to stay and emotionally go...and come back...to go and come back entirely...not in your control. Not you doing...not your being that is too much...the better you know your own perception is powerful, the more you'll respect their perception is NOT your reality.

It's not. And the more you see their choices as separate to you, your essence...the more you'll see their choices to stay, to love, to act from their love...and live from a multitude of gifts instead of lack.

I don't want to lose this part...you have been betrayed, deceived, tricked, abandoned, been known...and you live, still. Your part to choose to believe or not, is that the more you do not choose to deceive, trick, manipulate, abandon, hide...the less you will experience others doing that to you.

For self will know you will be honest and share self...authentic self...and have joy in that choice to share, honestly, entirely...which is embracing and owning, not abandoning...acceptance, attention, appreciation and cumulatively, love. You will feel loved, chosen, belonging, acceptance, connection...because of your own choices...in meeting your own standards and enforcing your boundaries.

You could not drive me away without my own judgment...don't step over it. I judge you as a burden to me, then you become one to me...so not real...total fantasy. Judgment is still kicking your fear butt, JJ. Pledge to be aware of your judgments...first to know...then to revoke that permission...then to see how far they go...slowly, with love and acceptance...that's not who you really are...and proceed slowly and steadily.

Goal for clarity, not perfection. Goal for highest honesty, not invincibility. Goal for real, with pores, not smooth. Adult self, not child reaction.

Thanks for getting your manipulation...not where you want to come from and you got the consequence of choosing to do so...that you'll react heavily when others seem to manipulate. Your counselor wasn't. She was putting plain choice in front of you...from her standards...and enforcing her boundaries. Respecting your total choice as yours...as it was...and you chose not to disclose all the way.

Are you afraid of criminal charges? If you are, or you are for your H...I think you can see where your choice today matters...how long you haven't made the illegal choice. And to embrace how risky and distorting this addiction has been...let the import come in...get the dimensions of it...and know that only the truth sets us free...I promise...when you really get that honesty is more important than consequences and you embrace them...whatever they are...your addictive cycle stops...

I truly believe there is no more potent drug on earth than honesty. Reality. Getting there may take a lifetime...the irony isn't lost on me...craving honesty from others is a sure sign of not giving it to ourselves, or living up to it. Let go the response...let go the outcome...for you do not know...cannot know...and trust your highest honesty. Your self-image will kick and scream and threaten...you didn't form your self-image from honesty, but from fear. Be honest, anyway. Because when you are not, you tell authentic self to be ashamed...hide...unworthy...valueless and powerless...which is where the pain spills like blood through your veins...when it's self-image doing the rage dance...not self.

From fear.

Live from love, in truth...your choice...only you can free yourself, JJ...in all ways...

Has it cost me? Could it? I was honest with my mother...and she withdrew from me...harbored anger and cut me off from her experience...and died that way. Did my honesty cost me? Or did hers cost her? Is it necessary to find my way home again? You betcha. I'm gonna do it, anyway.

She's in my hair, right now...btw...I'm wearing her hair combs. Talk about her being on my mind, eh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Back to being tricked...when we stop our myriad ways of self-deception...we end up thriving in reality...so we trust our gut...and others do not deceive us through our own willingness to self-deceive...and our own clarity prohibits the previous trickery. I'm saying you can't get there at all until you get yourself square on honesty, reality, and your intent...then you'll experience a direct life...an honest one. Tell me when you get there, if you can be tricked then...'k?

Sounds like you upped your honesty about SF...and are communicating about it...which shows him and you how you accept different stages, feelings, beliefs...and work through them...in stages. Validating...not eliminating...not trying to solve one problem...his problem...sharing your own stuff...is this what you described with your FWH? I ask because this is being highest honesty.

What's your status now...have you now stopped with your counselor and kept your physician? Would you take this again to a bigger picture...and see if you are choosing based on possible response or from your code?

And where would this have fallen in your code?

LA

LA,

Just wanted to say that you've been on my mind and in my heart a lot.

I have been processing through some stuff. Reading some books... working on several aspects of my recovery.

I am off this week on vacation and am going to be working on a cool turkey w/d. My H did this a couple weeks ago and although it was extremely unpleasant he was successful so I am going to give it a shot... I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I don't know how much posting I will feel like doing... as the week progresses probably less as I will most likely be spending a good deal of time in bed.

I should mention that I have done a full blown cold turkey w/d before... twice actually but never by choice... only by circumstance. Having done it that way I think is what has caused the fear of doing it this way again. When my H did it... this was his first time going through it this way. He didn't know what to expect and his response to me was ... I had no idea it was going to be this bad. However he stuck it out. I think this time since I am doing it by choice... the decision that I really don't want that anymore will help with the motivation not to give up when it gets rough... and it will get rough.

I think that is what has prompted me not to want to do it like this... the fear of how sick I will be. But the tapering is taking too long. I want to take a more aggressive approach at it. Please pray for me this week. Pray that when I am in the worst of it that I will remember the outcome I want and push on through the pain.

My last therapy session went very well. Although I chose as you know already not to tell my doctor I was scared about how my session was going to go. I thought about canceling (running) about 100 times.

When I went I was able to tell my IC that I had chosen not to tell my doctor. She asked how I felt about that choice now that it was made. I said I thought I felt relief. She asked me how I felt about making a choice anyway... knowing it seemed like it wasn't what she wanted me to do. Owning my choice basically. We talked about how at first I had felt really upset with her and felt abandoned and controlled. When I was able to move past that thinking and realize that in fact that was not what was happening I no longer felt angry.

We discussed how it felt for me to make a choice... my own choice... not based on what I thought other people wanted me to do but just to make my choice right or wrong and live with it... sit with it.

Funny I thought she would be so disappointed in me but instead she was supportive of the fact that I made a choice and owned it.

We talked about why this was important and about how when I choose what I think other people want me to do that is disrespectful to self. It isn't so much about me making "right" or "wrong" choices but more about me making my own choices. We also talked about why that... really knowing my own choices and then NOT choosing them because it isn't what I think someone else will want me to do could be why I have felt so tired and overwhelmed and resentful. Shoving my own voice down over and over out of fear that what I want won't be good enough or right or that someone will leave me. What about the idea that I leave myself when I hear my own voice and then deny it. When I choose not to value myself... my voice. My disrespect for myself. Hmmmm... it was a lot to think about.

IC seems to think that is the crux of what has been going on for a long time. The constant battle to shove down what I really believe in an effort to make other people happy. And the belief that it will make other people happy when in fact truth is we don't make other people happy. Sacrificing yourself in an attempt to make others happy isn't being a martyr... it's being a liar.

I reread Primal Wound. I also read two Betty Jean Lifton books... Lost and Found, and Journey of the Adopted Self. I have read part one of Nancy Verrier's second book, Coming Home to Self (the theory part) and am reading part 2 which is about the authentic self and owning your responsibility.

I am giving myself permission to revisit the way that I have felt about my adoption... and to allow myself to feel the way I feel about it without attaching guilt about some of my feelings. Feeling grief, sadness, anger, etc. about my relinquishment isn't disrespectful to my parents. It doesn't change the way I feel about them to have had questions about my natural mother.

To own that it was NOT my fault that my natural mother's life was tragic in many ways. To accept that giving up a child was traumatic for her but that I didn't cause the trauma... even though it was me that she gave up doesn't make it my fault. Accepting my feelings about what happened to me as separate from my natural mother's or my parents feelings.

Seeing my dad's comments as his feelings... when he said "They have nothing to do with you... you belong to us you always have." To honor that that is how he feels... has nothing to do with my truth or even the truth but his truth. That I can see his love in that statement and accept that that is how he feels... see his fear in that statement. Understanding that they too felt their own fears.

Looking at the truth of the time frame of my birth... what it was like to be an unwed pregnant teen in the 60's. A time when abortion was not a choice for many and keeping a baby wasn't really a choice they had either. Understanding the coercion of a whole generation of girls. The secrecy of it all. Shamed and sent away by their families... told they were incapable and unfit to be mothers. Told that giving up their babies was the best thing for everyone involved. That adoption was the best solution for the age old problem of couples unable to conceive and unwed mothers. Best for who?

Whatever my feelings are about being adopted they are my feelings...mine and I don't need to feel guilty for having them. My feelings aren't disrespectful to either mother. It is a lot that I am processing through but I feel safe going through this... claiming myself in the process. Allowing myself to grieve without remaining there... staying a victim.

I watched an episode of Oprah about clutter. About families whose lives are being overtaken by the clutter in their homes and how it (the mess... clutter) is affecting their well-being. I looked around at the clutter which took over after d-day and I seemed unable to gain any sense of control over after and realized that it is in fact affecting me. I started cleaning it up... and although my house isn't spotless I do feel much less overwhelmed by what seemed like something I had lost control over. Straightening up mess has helped some with my depression. I don't mean to trivialize it by saying that if you clean up all of a sudden you feel miraculously all better...

Just that I think I felt stuck... so overwhelmed that I felt almost paralyzed and that movement felt good. That maybe my internal chaos and my external mess are linked. The physical work of cleaning up and the emotional work of cleansing... for me are connected.


Well LA... this is where I am right now. I am less afraid by it all... more at peace with the road I am on... it's MY road... and it is the one that will take me home...finally.

You are in my prayers, JJ...I believe in you, your choices, and it sounds like this time, because it's you wanting something more for yourself, a HUGE act of love for yourself...that you will conquer this, free yourself.

I do understand the clutter issue...and what you detected was a symbol, out of balance. You saw it clearly, after sensing it from the side. Hold that choice, to sense from the side...and see if this hasn't been one of your main protections...peripheral detection...that's how I used to signal myself...from fear...not looking head on because I didn't think I could...and now, I can.

Self-manipulation...huge freedom in not playing those games with myself, about myself.

A huge part of depression is negative self-talk...like a vibrating hum, a constant berating, we don't even hear in the backs of our minds...which paralyzes us. Understandably...unreasonable...because you are an adult human being...turn down the noise around you and listen to hear that hum...it's words...it's litany...the anti-mantra...and tell it, "No, that's not what I want."

Because you don't...doesn't keep you safe, make you strong, earn you love through punishment...core stuff. You can do this.

Seems like you're seeing the power in acceptance...and accepting that you aren't safe, already strong, choose to love and feel loved...is the best focus you can have this week...letting your own love in for self and from self...

Accept what you feel, how deep it hits you...and say, "I am doing this right now" "This is necessary right now." Not forever...and your inner child is gonna react as if what you're feeling is forever...hold that child, concentrate on loving that child through this...because this is one week, two weeks. That's it. Not forever, ever or always. Just right now.

And on adoption...best for who? Humans do the best they know how until they know better...lots of acceptance in this...because the human race grows, as we grow individually. We kill people for killing...we rule by exception...we ache to be comforted from the outside when we hurt on the inside...we are trying to find our way.

Societal rules of the 60's and before was not all harmful, nor all beneficial...what we have now is the same...once, parents had many children, now children have many parents.

We remain part of the whole...of each other, JJ...and my journey is enriched knowing you.

LA

LA...just a quick note to you....just in case you think I have given up on this 'process'...

...I haven't....it's in the 'stewing' stage....and I have not lost sight of it...but, obviously, I must have some resistance.....but I won't make excuses....that wouldn't cut it...LOL!

I am glad to see this thread is being kept 'alive'....and that it's not moving tooooo fast....so I won't have a lot to catch up...when I 'make up my mind to do it!'....LOL!

LA... thank you again.

Yesterday I was going through some of my adoption file (my personal file not a state file as even though I was born in Oregon one of the most progressive states in terms of giving adoptees information... law passed in 2000 allowing us to get unammended original birth certificates, the way I found my birth mother.) I cannot however have access to my "state adoption record" only the non-identifying info from that file and my original birth cert. It does not name my birthfather however the non-identifying info states that he is named in the adoption record... thus he is named in the file to which I cannot have access. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Anyway when I first made contact with my natural mother's family her son gave me the name of the man his aunt (my birthmother's younger sister) believed to be my birthfather. In a weird coincidence (his name is the same as my H's) I was randomly doing a search yesterday which turned up an obituary for this man. Seems he was riding his Harley on the highway when he went off into the gravel shoulder and lost control, hit a tree, and was ejected. He died at the scene. He was 55 and died in 2005. I have known his name since 2000.

I am not sure why I chose not to do anything... I think partly because in the non-identifying info I was sent it stated that he was unaware of my birthmother's pregnancy. I had originally called the state right after I had received and made contact with my birthmother's family (she was dead) but her son helped me a lot. Anyway after I had the name of who the considered the birthfather I contacted the state again to see if the would just verify yes or no from the adoption record and they would not.

I don't know if it is worth pursuing but I wonder now since it appears that both my natural parents are deceased if the state might consider releasing my complete adoption record to me. It seems to me that the parties who might have been harmed by me having access to this information are all already deceased. If this man is my birthfather both his parents are deceased and my birthmother's mother is still alive however since I already have that information because my birthmother was obviously named on my original birth certificate that that wouldn't factor but it might.

I am not sure why I want access to that record... the non-identifying info from that record told me stuff about my birthmother while she was in the home for unwed mothers. It did state that my birthfather's mother died of cancer (doesn't state what kind) 3 or 4 years before my birth which would lead me to believe that she was probably in her early forties. Also in that letter it states that my birthmother became pregnant after attending a "drinking party" with my birthfather.

From my birthfather's (if it is in fact him) obit. I was able to find another police report (newspaper) that talked about the accident and that alcohol was being investigated in the death. Why would this matter? Alcoholism would matter to me.

I know my birthmother became an addict. If my birthfather was alcoholic then this would seem relevant to me.

If my birthgrandmother died of cancer that too seems relevant. From what I can glean from the obituary my birthfather had 5 siblings... all of which appear to still be living. It also appears he never married or had any children. He served in Vietnam and was awarded a bronze star.

In a way it is like a puzzle... trying to find the pieces. They aren't my parents in the way that I see my parents that raised me... they are my family, my parents. However there is something in me that just wants to know... I know it is very common for adoptees to be curious... to want to know. I know I am not out there wanting to know. I also realize that knowing won't change my life. It will not change who I am because I am already who I am. But without my birthparents I would not be here. It is because of them that I exist. I'm not sure what I am after here.

Thank you... I want my freedom back. I am doing okay today... so far not to bad but it is the beginning and I know it will get worse before it gets better as each day I drop down versus each week or 2 weeks making a drop down. Usually the second day is worse than the first at least this is what my experience has been. I am trying not to overthink this and just stay in what I am feeling right now.

Hmmm... I hadn't thought about it that way... seeing it from the side from fear of looking at it head on. I do feel like the clutter initially was representative of what was going on in our life. So I just accepted it initially and it didn't bother me that much. But as time has progressed and we have grown... the clutter was still there and over time it really started to bother me... I felt out of balance. It seemed like it was too much too overwhelming. I realized I had to start somewhere and even doing it one room at a time I feel more at peace... not so overwhelmed... and like I can regain a handle on it. It's like as I reclaim myself (the parts of my self analogy of rooms of a home) that I also want to reclaim the physical rooms of my house too. Does this make sense?

Interesting perspective regarding depression. I think perhaps I have been dealing with depression for quite awhile. Previously I medicated it... kept up with things... if it appeared okay on the surface then it must be okay in staunch contrast to the mess which signaled to me that I was not in fact okay. Then a sense of surrendering to it... desire to escape to sleep to succumb to it.

Neither way is really working for me... truth is I think I thought I either had to keep it at bay by trying to stay so busy that I wouldn't have time to think about any of it... or surrendering to it and feeling like I was drowning from it. What is it? It is me. I cannot run away from me or drown from being me.

Just right now... I am focusing on that.

I know what you are saying. I think growing up I thought about my birthmother one way... like she was doing what was best for both of us. Not really understanding what it must have been like for her at all. Then being angry at her for not being more like what my parents told me she would have been. They told me she wanted to finish school make something of her life. I had false expectations for her. I wanted her to be heroic somehow... to have persevered in spite of it all. Now comes forgiveness for her and for the other birthmothers of her time. Accepting them from an adult perspective... knowing that their choice deeply affected them. Seeing them as girls... not grown woman (I know some were but many were young teenage girls... unwed and shamed.)

After connecting with some birthmoms from that era I see a different perspective. Was there a better solution then... doesn't appear that there was. You're right not all bad or all good. Seems we are still finding our way. What we want is acceptance. We look for others who can see and say I understand. Not right or wrong... just acknowledgement that it happened...

Things are still happening all over the world... atrocities against humankind. Genocide, human trafficking, child abuse, war, racism, hatred... the list could go on and on. In all of it though you can also see the human spirit... people reaching out to others... standing up for what they believe in...

Thanks for sharing yourself with me.

Luna...Thanks for updating and letting me know you still have owning all your villagers as a goal. You're not forgotten...

I look forward to welcoming you when you're ready.


JJ,

Have a brief message for you...

What you're doing right now is giving yourself the chance at freedom...an experience you haven't had...don't know what it will be like...and you're giving yourself the gift of that experience...

To see if you like it. If it's what you want...have wanted all your life.

Great choice.

Because every time you reach for a pill for those reasons you have, you are saying to self, "I'm not complete. I lack." Which isn't living in truth...because you don't lack. When your pain deepens, remind yourself of this...your intent. Your gift. Your wholeness.

Remind yourself this is the way to freedom...where you haven't been before, don't know the way...believe you can get there from here.

Remind yourself you can't make yourself heal...you do heal.

I see your focus on what you have no control over...a distraction from self in the guise of self-discovery...our deepest deceptive practice, our last-stand distraction.

Hold still, JJ. Be with yourself right now. In the present. Your own humanness...

Let the journey be now. Right now.

LA

LA,

LOL... yes I am distracting myself. Diversion... think about something else. It is going to be harder as each day this week gets harder to distract.

I woke up this am and would have given anything to feel really distracted. I feel like crap. 15 hours between my last half dose and this one which is more like a quarter dose.

Just trying to hang on. I am going back to bed. Hopefully sometime today I am going to feel human enough to get to the grocery store.

Talk to you later..

I'm here for your distraction...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget to ask DH for what you need...ask and allow yourself to receive...from the grocery store, physical touch or a body block from harm.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Thank you distraction and for understanding that the distraction is only temporary.... anything I can do right now to keep my mind off of it and clock watching.

DH is golfing 18 holes with his dad today. SS is at his mom's so it is me and DD. DD is sick so it helps because she isn't really active... as far as she is concerned she and mommy are both sickie poo's.

Distraction helps with clockwatching which is counting the time until next reduced dose. I pat myself on the back for yesterday. I stuck to my plan. I did not give in.

So far today I am sticking to plan. Distraction helps pass the time between... KWIM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am going to take a couple of Advil now... so that should help some. Then a hot shower. I thought I might be able to go back to sleep but that doesn't look like it is going to happen... at least right now.

Okay I will check in later. Thanks for being here right now... during this.

Yes, JJ, I know what you mean.

I believe that in God's design, everything has a purpose...the ability to distract...isn't an evil ability...it's in us for a reason. Like these times.

Which goes to the Golden Mean...nothing to an extreme, in either direction.

Which is what you're doing now...balancing from an extreme with another...like getting your slate erased...messy, ucky and feels perilous...will launch a new life for thriving.

HUMUNGOUS CONGRATS on accomplishing yesterday...holding to your plan today, as well...hot shower, lots of cool water and maybe two extra pillows so you can feel queenish.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Snuggling with DD is a cool treat, too...

Breathing, meditating, relaxing each muscle of your body, one at a time...transcends time.

My privilege to be here for you...

LA

JJ,

Thinking of you.

LA

JJ,

Me 2 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA & Lizzie,

Thanks... I am just not in a very good space right now.

I think about you guys too.

You don't have to be in a very good space to be here, right now.

You can choose to be here, anyway.

As you are.

Just as you are.

LA

LA,

A month ago I was on the road... I relapsed. Not crazy out of control relapse but relapse none the same. Two weeks ago I was down to one a day. Last Friday I relapsed again. Not huge increase but relapse none the same. I was so close to being clean...

I keep wondering if somewhere I don't really want it bad enough... but I don't think that is really true because I do want it. I feel weak... like a real loser.

I went to the doctor on Wednesday and I finally showed her my back again. I showed her this once a couple of years ago when it first started before it was really bad. I have had a lot of back pain you already know that... I have probably mentioned using a heating pad. I probably didn't mention that from sleeping on it every night I started developing a discoloration on my lower back... all the way across my back and about 5 inches vertically. The deep pigment discoloration has progressively gotten worse over the last couple years, but my back hurt and it helped ease the pain so I kept doing it.

My H kept saying it was getting worse... he would say that is scarring and that isn't going to go away... that burn damage. I knew he was right but I didn't stop... tried lowering the temp from high to med or low... and go an auto shut off one that turns off after about a half hour... but I would turn it back on if I woke up. It always felt so good.

When I showed my doctor she said "Jesus, Jilly, Jesus C. when were you planning on telling me about this?" (Sorry for using the Lord's name in vain... these were her words not mine and I restate it because I think her saying it like that really freaked me out and made me really take notice like this is more serious than I thought.) I asked her if it could cause skin cancer. She said maybe... she didn't like how dark some of the pigment is. That scared me.

She said I need a new MRI and she ordered a tens unit for me which is like a small portable electric stim. unit like they used on my back when I went to physical therapy.

It is hard to know that I have done this to myself. She said most of the scarring/dark pigment won't go away. I can live with the way it looks... I don't really have a choice about that. What bothers me more than the way it looks is that I could have given myself skin cancer. I stay out of the sun... all that stuff to prevent skin cancer and now because I wouldn't give up the heating pad... uggh. I don't have anything definitive yet so I guess I shouldn't bleed before I'm stuck but it is just another choice I have made that wasn't good for me.

My H is really frustrated with me regarding my lack of interest in SF. He has every right to feel the way he does. I am certainly not meeting his needs. Last night he asked me if there was someone else. I laughed because the idea is so preposterous to me but it hurt his feelings so much. I sincerely apologized but I couldn't take it back. I tried to explain to him that I won't ever cheat on him... that after going through what we did last spring and summer that knowing that kind of pain was not something I was ever going to be interested in participating again in my life.

I feel guilty about not having desire for SF. I don't know why I don't. He asked me if I was mad at him about the A and if it was about that. I tried to be truthful, open and honest in my response and I said I didn't think so but I wondered if I might be acting out/testing him... like prove you love me. I know this pattern. It's old. It goes one of two ways or at least has in the past... fear of being hurt will drive me to act one of two ways... fight (excessively try to control hold onto someone) or flight... run to self protect.

When someone actually does hurt me... not just the fear that they could but when it actually happens (this happened with the foo before) I have tested/acted out... with the prove you love me. I know it is my child who's running the show when it happens.

I don't like the space I am in right now. I feel like it is a sort of depression... I feel sad. I feel sad a lot. I think I feel really disappointed in who I am... the choices I make. Why can't I get it together? Like what the heck is wrong with me? Pull it together Jilly. Change.

Step one... end the unhealthy affair with meds. Part of the fear is physical and part is in my head. I get close but I can't seem to cross the finish line. I choose to believe I can deal with the emotional pain. I don't know how I am going to manage physical pain. Maybe with the new MRI they can get to the root of that and treat it.

There are some other family dynamics issues going on and I have kept quiet about them. Felt it would be hypocritical to post about my H's XW who has been involved in an A with a MM for the last 8 months. His BW found out and it was a mess. They teach at the same school and my SS was in his class 3 periods a day. My SS found out about this when her OC went on a trip with them and then told my SS that Mommy and OM were hugging and kissing.

SS was really pissed. She told us in October and SS found out about it about a month later. He was really mad at her. He told her he wouldn't go to her house unless she stopped seeing him while he was married. After he moved out and separated from his wife... his BW sent an email to all the staff at their school. So then it was out... and around. My H's XW ( I am going to refer to her as Cass from now on because I get tired of typing out my H's XW.) was mad that BW would do this... threaten her etc.

When Cass first told me about this A I told her I didn't feel I could judge her because of my own A but that I had a different feeling about adultery period now. I told her my feeling was that people were going to get hurt. I mean she knew about what happened with H and his A last year so it wasn't like she knew that I didn't have strong feelings about it. It was awkward for me because I like her as a person... she is my SS's mom.

When all this blew up she called me upset and mad at the BW. I asked her how she thought she was going to react. 14 years of M... and she wasn't choosing this. I didn't really think I was the person to counsel her but I also felt I owed her. I told her his BW might want to try to save their M... the exposure etc. kind of made me think she might. A part of me wanted to call the BW and give her this website but I didn't.

Part of the problem with all this is that Cass has been through this before. She had a previous A with a MM coworker and got pregnant and had her OC. It was a huge scandal. It broke up that M of 17 years. Their M didn't survive but both of them moved to different towns. Cass decided that she didn't want him either.

The pregnancy and all of it was a huge deal... in the school district (all of us... Cass, me, my H, Hassle, Hassle's now XH, the former MM and his BW. Cass's current OM... work in the same school district...the only one that doesn't is current OM's BW.) So the same people that worked with Cass when A one happened still work with her now.

The district was not exactly pleased about the whole pregnancy thing... especially since they both worked at the same site. Same as now only she isn't pregnant... fortunately OM had a vasectomy.

She asked me why she didn't feel pissed at me when my A happened. I said I had no idea why she wasn't as she had every right to be and I sure would have been if I was her. She kept saying but I wasn't... and why? I said I didn't know why... and I don't know why either. I told her I would have got it if she hated me. She said yeah but I never did... how come? I said I can't answer those questions for you... why do you think you didn't feel pissed or hate me? Her theory is she didn't want the M and that it was her out.

I really don't understand because I was devastated when it happened to me... suicidal in the beginning and I did feel really really mad at FOW. I did feel like I might harm her. I told Cass this too... like be aware at how upset his BW is and good grief lock your doors and set your alarm. I finally had to tell her I wasn't kidding about that. She was like I just don't get that... and did I really believe she could be that upset. I said yes.

After current MM left his BW their A continued and since he was separated I guess this made them feel that it would be okay for him to spend the night at her house when SS was there. Guess what... it wasn't okay with SS... he really started having negative feelings about MM who was also his teacher who was now sleeping over and making out with his mom.

He started talking to my H about how he was feeling. He told Cass he didn't like it and she kept telling him what did he want her to do... put her life on hold for him.

Earlier I had spoken to my therapist about this because I wasn't sure what to do. I felt like I didn't want to be unkind to Cass but it was affecting me because I was violating my own code... and felt confused about how to be supportive to her as a person without supporting the A which I didn't. IC suggested telling her that I really care for her as a person and value her as a co parent but that because this issue was difficult for me that perhaps it would be best she discussed it with her other friends.

The CA in me asked IC if I could just try changing the subject when it came up and she said that would be fine as long as it didn't continue and if it did I was going to have to be kind but direct. It worked for awhile.

So it has been a difficult thing I have been dealing with. A part of me blames myself for it. Like if my H and I hadn't then maybe none of this would have happened... but IC said you made choices then and you are making different choices now. You and H are trying to rebuild your M and survive what happened. I have to remind myself that she is a big girl and she makes her own choices and I don't have any control over what she does. JJ isn't responsible for Cass's choices... JJ is responsible for JJ's choices... all of JJ's choices.

Since my SS started really having a hard time with all this (he has had too much of this crud in his life... he knows about his dad and I and about both of his mom's A's) my H has begun to become more and more angry at Cass for what he perceives as her irresponsibility in protecting their (he's mine too in my heart) son. He's mad because he feels like she could have anticipated some of the potential problems and not have put SS in MM class. He feels angry that she says things to him like what do you want me to do put my life on hold. He is angry because in the heat of an argument between Cass and SS (he was complaining about how much he now doesn't like MM... doesn't want to be around him all week at school and then on the weekends that he's at her house too. He told her it's weird for him that his teacher is spending the night etc.) and then she told him well how convenient it was for his dad and I that it happened when he was little and he didn't know what was going on.

Well that made my H really mad... and defensive. He was like I didn't bring you around SS until a year after my divorce... which is true.

Last weekend the stuff really hit the fan and Cass and SS got into a huge fight. A fight that escalated to her in an AO shouting at him to get the F out of her house. At this point she called my H (who was already having protective feelings about SS and upset feelings toward her which he hadn't shared with her he was having because he didn't know how to approach her without sounding judgmental.) and so my H tried to calm her down (we have only one other time ever seen her this mad at SS or really about anything for that matter before.) and act as a mediator. Her first response was for my H to come and pick up HIS son.

H showed compassion and kindness toward her... knowing that sometimes people say things in anger they later regret. He was on the phone with her then SS for an hour and a half trying to get everyone calmed down. He said he would still come and get SS if she wanted him but felt they should try to work through it or everytime he got angry with her we were going to be setting up a pattern for him to get out without working it out. SS and Cass decided that he would stay the night there. He had to stop by our house on the way to school in the morning and he was really upset because they had gotten into another argument in the car on the way.

This started an email exchange between H and Cass that escalated. (My personal opinion ... don't use email to communicate with someone when you are upset with them... it is too easy to read more into things and before you know it... AO's and DJ's all over the place.) Meanwhile he is fwding the email exchanges to me and I can tell he is getting angrier and more upset and she is too and they are both firing off emails.

After school, I called her. I was concerned for all of us because them fighting isn't IMHO in the best interest of SS. I listened to her and tried to validate her upset feelings and mediate. I asked her why she was feeling so angry at SS13. She said because he is being so mean to me and that he told her that she deserves the way he treats and talks to her because she never disciplines him for it so it is her fault he is acting this way and she asked him if he talked to us that way and he spouted of no way because daddy and jilly would never let me get away with talking to them that way but you don't do anything about it so I don't respect you.

I asked her if that was true... if she allowed him to talk to her that way. She said that she tells him to watch his tone but doesn't give him any consequences for it. She then said that SS told her if she wanted him to start respect her she better start disciplining her which made her really upset because I guess as a child she got punished a lot so she promised herself that she would never do that to her kids. (I gave her a copy of Healing the Shame... a few months ago but I am guessing she has not read it.)

I talked to her about that I think that anger is really about fear... underneath. I asked her if there was anything she was afraid of and what she thought SS might be afraid of. She said she thought maybe SS felt afraid that she MM, and OC were going to be a new family without a place for him. I asked her if she had asked him if he felt this way and she said no. I asked her if she was afraid that SS was asking her to choose between MM and him. She said maybe yes she was feeling like he was.

I also talked to her about boundaries in regards to discipline and that part of loving and parenting a child requires us to set boundaries for them. I said we teach people how to treat us. I told her I am constantly working on that one and that SS sounds like he is begging her to stop being his friend and start acting more in the parental role. I think she has been able to get by with this parenting style more because he is only there every other weekend and now that he is 13 he is going to push the boundaries like most teenagers do.

I talked to her about how our own FOO and upbringing plays a huge role in how we parent and sometimes we have to learn things about ourselves to help ourselves as parents. I told her I certainly didn't have all the answers but I felt like the core of the issues were about fear and trust.

At first my H was upset with me because he felt like I was coddling her... and he was mad at her and felt betrayed like I was taking her side. After I listened... yep listened to him vent...validated his feelings without telling him how I thought he "should" feel or act he was still mad but not at me. Later he broke down in the kitchen and cried because he was just so upset about all of this and worried about SS. I said I get it and we all just want to be heard... including Cass.

Later that evening we had a talk with SS and I asked him if he would share why he was so angry at his mom and what his fears were. I shared with him that his mom felt like he wanted her to choose. He said ... I do and she SHOULD choose me.... I'm her kid. I asked him if he was mad at me would he think his dad should divorce me and choose him. He was like of course not but that is totally different. You guys have been married since I was little. We tried to help him process his feelings.

I feel like he has a lot of underlying anger and right now it is primarily directed toward his mom. After finally seeming to get his message across to his mom that it was really stressing him out to be in MM class she offered to check into moving him into another class which we supported. So Monday he started with a different teacher for those 3 periods. I think it is for the best because I think it was getting stressful for all of them at school. SS says he likes his new teacher so hopefully it'll help some.

It has been a lot to deal with all of it... and I am still not sure if I am doing the right thing. I keep asking myself what is in SS's best interest... not mine, H's, his mom's. I keep feeling like it is in his best interest if we can work together to co parent and that if we start fighting amongst ourselves as parents in the end it won't be best for him. I care about Cass and SS and I want them to have a relationship.

Whatever happens between Cass and MM...? in a year.. In 10... for the rest of her life… SS will always be her son.

I feel like I just dumped a very heavy burden off my shoulders by sharing this. I don't know exactly what to do in terms of dealing with the fact that this is an A and I don't support A's. LA... seriously how do I do this with integrity to self and to our family which by extension includes SS's mom? Please advise... am I doing okay with this? Any suggestions for how I can do better?

I have to wonder now if relapsing last Friday had anything to do with the stress of what happened with SS and his mom. Like maybe I didn't trust myself to be strong enough to handle it and so I gave myself permission to medicate... and then the disappointment of relapse and the shame associated with it makes me feel sad.

All I know is when I started this post I was crying on and off and now I feel relieved so that tells me again that keeping stuff in hurts me... I hope I can get this lesson.

Thanks LA for reminding me that I don't have to be in a good space to be here. I have had that on my mind all week.

Good to see you, JJ...

Thank you for sharing.

When it comes to permissions...what we allow ourselves to do and not do...it isn't blanket revocation...as in regards to your meds...because if we reach THIS level, then it's okay...relapses occur...your basic premise hasn't changed. You need those meds so they can't be wrong for you.

I don't think I said that the way I wanted to.

When my permission to LB reaches super stress height 50 feet...then I do...because in me remains the belief that LBing is what I need to do sometimes. Majority of my life now is under 49-feet...so I don't. Doesn't mean I won't.

Getting to why I believe I need what I need when something hits a certain intensity...well, I haven't figured that out. The reason I revoked my permission to LB was for me, about me...not who I really was...irrelevant of stress or levels...

Somehow, when stress reaches a certain heighth, my permissions kick in again.

Where does that come from? Want to explore it together?

If we don't revoke the permission...and we do it through denial alone...then we live in deprivation. If we ascertain this is a false need...then we live in freedom.

I got that. I know that denying myself is sacrifice (I deserve to AO...anyone wood...I won't because I take the high road and I refuse to get on his level) which is fantasy and resentment...

Admitting, embracing, knowing that's not who I am gets me to 50 feet.

Why only 50 feet?

Sounds like you broke the surface and took some air in realizing how incredibly stressful Cass's A affects your family, your selves...your children.

And I think this issue begins and ends with you...because the rest is out of your control.

I think you're feeling abhorred and mollified at the same time over Cass's behavior (and not for the first time)...would you say that each time she does this, breaks apart a marriage, you feel a little more relieved of breaking apart her marriage? And abhorred given now you know the devastation...as you said, the complete annihilation you felt...and so thinking of BW causes a lot of pain inside you.

At you.

And at Cass.

And humans.

And the world.

Where's the zero tolerance policy for teachers having A's? The crossing of the line with a student's mother? With anyone? Could this indicator of Hassle and the rest (everyone BUT BW!) within your school district God's way of saying get on it...with consequences?

Because the decimation of marriage has lifelong impact...you know...look at DSS...because he wants to matter...and he's erased...and he's sick of it. First his father...and yes, he was young...but he wasn't worth staying for...and then his mother...and his mother again...and he has nowhere to fall...no one is being loyal to him.

Choosing him. And he's their son. Your son.

Choose him.

Back him...Cass doesn't need understanding...she's been enabled her whole life...victim who victimizes...stand up to her. Say, "I destroyed your family. You've destroyed two more outside and one inside, twice. Stop it. Until you stop seeing OM and go no contact, we will fight for sole custody of SS. We can't change our past actions...we know the consequences keep going on...but for him, his life, we will do this. He's worth it. He's your son."

You tried to earn forgiveness (and she doesn't even think she was mad at you...wayward thinking) through friendship, amends through enabling. Stop. You can only ask for, not control, forgiveness. You asked a long time ago and she gave it.

And your FWH...he's done it again...and again...and he hasn't chosen SS, either. Don't laud him with waiting a year after the divorce to introduce you guys...he's made SS last, too...and now, he's not. Take it further, JJ. Stand for what you know THROUGH experience...that we cannot change the past, adults lose their way, and sometimes, a child will lead them.

Do not support she who destroys; support she who repents.

And think about your DD...she sees herself as SS sees himself...what they (adults) did to him, they'll do to me...

And they will.

Until someone draws and stands by those lines.

You know the truth...his father chose, his mother chose, and chose again...over him. He had to suck it up, make the best of it, outside his control...be a man as a boy and go with the flow...no say.

He's been more of a hero than all of you...because he's speaking now. Support his truth...acknowledge, validate, and lay out...this is what is within our power and we're willing to do it...what do you want? What do you think? What would you perceive as fighting for you? Choosing you?

Because you're already chosen. You're ours and we are deeply grateful.

You're not bad or wrong...this is a mirror crisis and triggers to a lot of stuff...from confusing directions (too many at a time)...you're not nuts or doing it wrong. You're living in duality...and you're exploring it. Which is why writing about it...sharing it...helps to relieve you the juggling emotions inside; the longer they remain unexpressed, they heavier they get.

Might even make your stress high enough to get permission...eh?

Practice this lesson...and say, "No, that's not what I will do." and why. I'll respect whatever choice you make...your lines you live by are what matters, JJ.

You know how in the bible, when Jesus berates those who degrade Mary Magdelene...about he without sin throws the first stone? What if you can say..."Stop doing this. Because I did, I know. This road is disastrous...it's harming everyone around you and yourself. Stop living in lies and fantasy. Your choice."

Because we have sinned...we know...no stones required. Doesn't mean we can't choose to fight and risk seeming hypocrites...I'd rather fight, anyway.

And all the while you were listening to Cass...can you picture another woman, listening to Hassle? Accepting her the person and not her actions? Drawing no boundaries? And her children hurting as badly as SS...with no one listening to them?

Betraying ourselves betrays others...find all the ways this duality you have in your life right now feels, takes, triggers...and get to the core of it...

Do you have a lot of underlying (or not so under) anger directed at Cass? Yourself? FWH?

"I asked him if he was mad at me would he think his dad should divorce me and choose him." Was this really what you thought he was doing? He's a bright kid...he knew it was totally different...and yet, not. Does he know about his father's recent A?

You are doing well, JJ...you may not feel it, know it...you are...doesn't mean you aren't, 'k? You're respecting, listening, staying aware and not automatically reaching for blame or drowning in shame or shaming/blaming others. You're not being reactive...act with authority of one who lived those choices and grew from them, 'k?

It's what I do...full of hypocrisy had I been saying this three years ago...not a bit now...not who we are now. Cass has that opportunity, as well. Until she chooses to acknowledge her choices and consequences, don't get in their way, 'k?

She's as capable, whole and complete as you are. As I am. Let her find her way...draw your lines.

LA

LA,


I just lost my whole dang post... uggh NOTE to SELF copy paste and work in WORD. I am a slow learner when it comes to this... how many times is this going to happen to me before I write consistenly in word.

Ugghh that makes me so frustrated. I am so bummed right now. 3 hours friend... that how long I had been working on it. I don't type that fast.

I was working on the second to last paragraph of your post.

Okay I am done feeling sorry for myself now... I chose not to write in word. I have lost posts before when I have chosen not to write in word. I will chose to write in word from now on.

Anyway... miss you.

Oh, JJ...I'm very sorry...for my own loss. Three hours. I hear you.

We self-sabotage, don't we? Your words are important...you are truly important...

They are. You are.

Worth writing, remembering, posting, copying...cherish them. They're you.

And you feeling sorry for yourself is okay...that's loss...a grieving. Sounds to me like you're valuing yourself.

And yes, I've had that experience...and the only way is our way...to own and know...to value and nuture...as you do your child, so do with your words.

And know God's way, too...might be something will bring all of that back, for you, in his way, and I will be privileged to read it and know it better...for me...then. That was my consolation at times...to say, "Ahhh. Ouch. Okay."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can't miss me. I'm right here.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

{{{{{{{{{JJ}}}}}}}}}}

LA