Hello everyone,

This is my first post here altho I have been reading on the MB site and thru the boards for a couple of weeks now.

Here is my situation. My hubby and I have been married almost 6 years. We have 2 sons together ages 6 and 5. We are currently seperated and have been for about 8 months. I was the one who left.

He has always said he did not want a divorce and he wanted us to work the marriage out. At first I said I was going to file for divorce and be done with it. Now I am considering letting him move in with me and trying again. (The reason he would move in w/ me is because the boys are settled in school and we don't want to disrupt that)

The main reason I left was that he was not supporting us. Don't get me wrong, he is not a lazy man, he was working sometimes as much as 16 hours a day. However he is a lease/opperator truck driver and went 12 weeks with no positive paycheck. We had decied I would stay home with the kids and whenever I mentioned getting a job, he would get angry and tell me the boys needed me. Last summer when he went so long w/o a paycheck, the boys and I were survivng on PBJ sandiches. I had friends who lent me money for the bills and groceries.

We had talked it out and decided that he would give up the lease on his truck and just be a company driver since company drivers don't have the expenses of the truck (truck payments, fuel and insurance ect) they always have positive paychecks. Well, when he went back to the company he let them talk him into keeping the lease, hence still no paycheck (I was extremely angry that the decision we made together had not been kept)

Finally when we got an eviction notice (I refused to borrow any more money) I left and told him that I was filing for divorce. I got a job and got my own place a couple hours away. I let him see the boys whenever he could, and he had Christmas and my sons B day with us.

He came for a week last month (sons B day) and told me he was sorry for what he had done and that he realized I was right. He said he would do anything if I would give the marriage another chance. He says he loves me and the boys and can't stand the idea of the family being broken.

I told him the first thing I needed to happen was to see that he was serious about making positive paychecks (he has now been 8 weeks w/o a check). To this end he has applied and been accepted by another company as a company driver. Also this job has promised to get him home every week as opposed to the every 6 weeks his current company allows.

I also told him that he had to start respecting me as an equal partnes in the marriage. I was really hurt when he disreguarded my feelings w/ the decision to go company before. He does that alot. We talk about something, come to a mutual agreement and then he does whatever he wants...Now there have been time when what we agreed upon was NOT what I wanted, but after discussion saw another way was best and I stuck to the decision we made...

I told him he also needs to be more responsible. He dosen't take care of things we have, and then things we have worked for get broken and then we either have to do w/o them or spend the money for a new one. The worst tho was when he got the boys a puppy and then left the anitfreeze out where the puppy could get into it and of course the puppy died. (this happened on his truck so I wasn't around to pick up after him like I usually do)

He says he is willing to do all of the above. He has been calling several times a day just to talk. He will be in later in the week to spend Easter here and get his truck ready to turn in so he can go to the new company. We will talk then and I plan on showing him this site.

I'm very worried abt letting him move back in. I am so afraid that things will be great for awhile, then in time go back to the way they were before......

Has anyone else been thru anything similar? Is this worth working on?

Wren

Welcome to MarriageBuilders Wren...

Have you read the articles on the website by Dr. Harley? About the Love Bank, Love Busters, Emotional Needs, Negotiating in Marriage and the Rules of Marriage?

Also, have you read the abbreviations (acronyms) list in the Infidelity Just Found Out forum? Helps with decoding posts.

I related to the part of your anger on mutual agreement to do something and then him not following through. My DH was like this. This wasn't a character flaw, I came to find out, but rather a life long discomfort with conflict. I won't label your H by saying this is his way. I'll share with you what it took for our marriage to thrive.

There were two things I was doing in the dance of our marriage which insured that my H kept dancing with me in the same way: I mothered him instead of partnered him; and I wasn't safe for him to talk to, to be intimate with.

Changing these two issues in me made a world of difference. The first one took putting respect into our marriage--seeing my H as an equal, getting my belief replaced that I made him angry, withdraw, happy or contented. I didn't. Couldn't. We aren't designed that way. God made us all separate and equal to everyone else on the planet...he gave each of us our own power, to choose our beliefs, and our thoughts and feelings, wants, desires were all our own. Gave that to each one of us. Choice is the most powerful tool we have.

Respect is knowing you are not the cause, control or cure of another human. They are. And they are fully capable, as capable as you or anyone. Their capability lies in their choices as it does ours.

It's a beautiful system...all garbaged over by the beliefs we were reared with, a lot of them picked up and held onto in our young years...talk to your sons, they have a lot of them already.

The second was making myself safe...which meant for DH and for myself. I eliminated love busters (AOs, DJs, SDs were mine). I took my expectations down and cleaned out my resentments. In communicating with my DH, I listened and repeated, to share what I heard, and he would confirm or clarify. This takes awhile, but changing me worked. We moved on to listening and repeating with filters, sharing how we heard what the other was saying, and now, we are both safe to be intimate.

If you are looking at him to be different for you to feel safe, then you are focusing on what you can't control. Changing you changes half the marriage. That's how saving your marriage works...and the benefits continue to build and blossom.

Because you've introduced divorce into your marriage, it will be the weapon most readily at hand. I found this out. Instead of negotiating anything less, it will pop up as the tool of manipulation it truly is. I advise you not to threaten it unless you've already filed. Period. Harley says even divorce should be POJA'd...policy of joint agreement, and it shouldn't be agreed to unless both parties are enthusiastic about it.

As for your question is marriage worth working on? What would your boys say? What does divorce say to them? That marriage depends on the other partner? That you have no power, no choice? That daddy can make mommy leave? That mommy can make daddy suffer? That they don't count? Torn up inside because they love you both intensely, with all of their small beings?

Know why kids feel at fault? Because that's what parents teach them...you made me mad (kid now has the power to harm); Daddy makes me mad and I got rid of him (power to make people disappear)...when we teach our children about choices, their power, and that they cannot make us anything...then we have given them reality, respect and they know they are whole and only can control and are responsible for themselves. Think about what your children believe right now and then ask yourself if your marriage is worth working on...

LA

LA,

Thanks for your reply. I think my hubby has an issue w/ conflict avoidance also. His mother was/is very domineering over his father and was that way to him as well when he was a child.

I also think I may be mothering him as well...In fact I have sometimes refered to him as "my 3rd child".

I have read the love busters article, but will read it again as it is a bit fuzzy in my mind lol.

As for looking to him to feel safe, yes I'm guilty of that too. I was raied in a very traditional home where my dad was the "provider and protector" and mom made the house a home. My husband has not done the providing, and to be honest the idea of having to support the boys alone is very scarry, altho I have been doing it since I left. He has given me money when he had it, but with this job that wasn't often. I have been very angry at him for not being the provider we agreed he would be (and I have expected him to be)

I know my kids do not want us to divorce. They have both said so and my oldest, who is a highly sensitve child, has had alot of emotional problems with it. To be honest they are the main reason I am trying again. Sometimes it feels wrong to me as I always thought "staying together for the sake of the kids" was wrong. That was before my child cried all night long begging me not to get a divorce.

However I do NOT want to live in a miserable marriage like I did for the past year before I left....I was really glad to read about love banks and getting back the feelings of love. I remember a time when I couldn't wait to see my hubby, when I would sit on the porch and wait to hear his truck coming down the road....those times are long gone. I am hoping I can get them back.

Wren

"I always thought "staying together for the sake of the kids" was wrong. That was before my child cried all night long begging me not to get a divorce." You and me, both, right there...I often wonder how those pundits espousing this get to sleep. Thank you for saying that.

"However I do NOT want to live in a miserable marriage like I did for the past year before I left...." I wouldn't ask you to...there are three parts of a marriage...you, him and the marriage. What you choose to do to honor the marriage can be done even when you don't feel like honoring your H. That was key to finding out for me. What do you think?

You can get your love to overflowing again. All within your choices, not dependent on his actions. Get to what is underneath your anger...anger is a secondary emotion, a healthy signal which can be distorted in its intensity by other ones...what is your primary emotion when you think about him not providing, as your father did?

Yes, my H came from the same home your H did... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hear you are good at looking for the whys of people, like I did. I found out something astonishing to me, though...I used those whys I discovered to disrespect others.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Had no idea. Misuse of power over myself. Whoa. That discover was what I credit saving my marriage with...and with a lot more damage from me and my DH than you have right now in yours. I say that to give you hope and also the perspective that worse can come your way, because you're in a human marriage, and humans do damage.

The Love Busters address this the most...disrespectful judgments (DJs). Not just what we say, but what we give ourselves permission to believe. There is a whole book called Love Busters, which takes each one more in depth.

Please know another reason for trying again. People are not replaceable...if you do choose to divorce, to find someone who will meet your EN of FS, then you will recreate same circumstances because of the lessons that were for you in this marriage were not learned. Believing your life depends on you, your choices, is the key to happiness. Making it depend on who you pick is the key to unhappiness and sorrow.

LA

LA,

I have been feeling very guilty about the issue w/ my kids. My hubby is a great dad. He said that this is the time he has always looked foward to. When they are in school and doing things at school and getting into sports. He wants to be that dad who plays catch with his sons and is there for all their sports games and school plays. Heck he even wants to go to parent/teacher conferences lol. My boys are lucky to have a father that commited to them. Taking that away made me feel terrible.

I think my primary emotion when he was no longer bringing in paychecks was disapoinment and disbeief, that week after week we went w/o and I have to ask ppl for money and he kept doing it. It felt like his truck was more important to him than the boys and I. It was like he had this image of himself as an "owner" of his own truck. Like he wanted everyone out there on the road to think he was more than he was and if the kids and I suffered for it oh well...

I honestly think he sees what he was doing. And I think he regrets it. I think he really loves me, probably more than I love him right now.

I'm sure I have been guilty of misuse of power. And I know there were times I would nag at him from the second he walked in the door.

I have a friend who used to travel in his job and he told me once that when he came home he was looking so foward to getting home to see his wife and he would walk in the door and she hit him with all the problems that had arisen while he was gone, and all of her anger for having to deal with them alone. My friend told me how much of a hurt and disapointment it was...At the tiem I told him I agreed with his wife. Looking back I wonder how many times my hubby felt that way?

I have decided that even tho he hasn't officially moved in yet, that when he gets her this week, I will try to make his first night home as pleasant as possible. I will have the house spotless clean, the kids ready to see him (not that I have to do anything there they miss him ). I will have an awesome dinner planned (he loves my cooking). I will not discuss the problems in the marriage. He will be here for several days and we can discuss that another day when he is well rested. This is my first step.

Wren

"I think my primary emotion when he was no longer bringing in paychecks was disapoinment and disbeief, that week after week we went w/o and I have to ask ppl for money and he kept doing it. It felt like his truck was more important to him than the boys and I. It was like he had this image of himself as an "owner" of his own truck. Like he wanted everyone out there on the road to think he was more than he was and if the kids and I suffered for it oh well..."

Consider...

That you are not alone in having expectations...even unreasonable ones. What you may have seen as a given, a certainty of nonpaycheck, he expected for this week to be the big payoff, the one that justified being self-employed...that you would forgive and rejoice with him when this week, and the next, was the one to show he wasn't wrong in his choice. Because to him, being wrong in his choice was being wrong as a person.

We can cover ourselves up in being dishonest with ourselves to protect us from reality. Wishfulness is when we feel awful inside...like we don't make mistakes, we are a mistake. We can become fixated on just this one thing, if only this way will work, we will be redeemed, by others and our life. This is where the "do you want to be right or do you want to be married" usually steps in.

See how both of you aren't crazy? You have a lot of shoulds in you and so does he. It is your shoulds (he is the man and should provide) are the same as his? I am not a man if I don't provide. And the more you feed your shoulds, the more he has to feed his...or be wrong, a mistake, defective.

All on him. What a crushing weight to carry...just like yours. You changed it...pretend you didn't move out, but got that job instead...said, "DH? I realize this is your battle within yourself...what you believe matters. Your choices matter. I know I cannot make them for you. Here is what I am choosing. You are not making me choose. I am."

You chose to see him as making himself, the truck, more important than the boys and you. This is the DJ we all fall under and believe someone else is handing us this judgment. You can choose to not see his choices as anything but his own, for his reasons. By talking about what is behind his choices, being safe to be open with, you might find what you suspected...that he feels inferior, craves to be equal...sees you as better, that he's not enough for you...and that he wants a shortcut to respect, from others and to himself. There aren't any shortcuts...just looks like there are because we get temporary good feelings and believe them to be signs that we are respected.

When we aren't.

Infusing respect and admiration in your marriage, true admiration for him as a father, a lover, a lot of the parts that go to who he is other than provider may be the way out of this for you. By looking at him as sole-source, he becomes that. He already has that in his beliefs...he isn't a man if he doesn't provide...which gives him the feeling of not being a man but a failure...over and over again.

You can't change his beliefs, but you can share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs with him, respecting his choices, not assuming or mindreading. You can be safe and available.

Your choice. Your true power. No nagging, conjoling, manipulation involved. You for you is more than enough for anyone.

You are seeing already that your presence matters. Let me ask you, is Domestic Support a big need of his, or yours? I ask because of the spotlessly clean part. Is it your language of love, acts of service, that gives you the feeling of being loved? The food maybe? You know he loves your cooking because his language is acts of service?

You are choosing well, Wren. You are open to what you bring to the marriage and don't make it all; can't make it all. When you replace the belief that love is earned by choosing to believe that love is a choice you make, then you will receive huge benefits from each act of love you make. Not dependent on his response. Demonstrating our love fills us with love. Again, brilliant by God's design. Unless you are fixated on the response you want..then you feel nothing...oh, not nothing--there's always resentment, anger, fear, and the rest popping in to tell you your expectations aren't being met, right?

Did you feel relief in realizing that mothering your H was disrespectful and comes from fear? There is always a good emotion coming up with each belief you adjust or replace.

And you have a plan...sounds like you are looking at more choices than divorce or not divorce now. Wonderful. There are a thousand steps in between. Tell me, though...have you committed to yourself that your plan for when he comes home, you will not choose to do anything you will create a resentment for?

LA

LA,

Yes he figured that every week would be the week that he would get $1,000 paycheck and that every week thereafter would be that way...Sadly that just isn't possible in today's economy with the priceof deisel fuel as high as it is. And the fact that when he leased the truck he had no down payment so his payments were &750 a WEEK. The drivers that are making the $1,000 a week are the ones who put big down payments on their truch so they have a smaller payment. I found all this out by talking to wives of truckers who had been in the business for 20 years of better. I tried explaining this to my hubby, but he just didn't get it. He says that he now understands that. I guess he spent some time talking to more experienced truckers in truck srops and was told the same thing...

I am just now realizing the concept of me making my own choices. For a long time I felt like if he said NO then it was NO. When I told him I wanted to get a job last year, he got really mad and said that I needed to be home w/ the boys. To me that was the end of the discussion. When I left I felt a huge releif. I felt in control of my situation for once.

As for the domestic support, that is both of us I suppose. To me, one thing I can do to show my family how much I love them is to make our home feel safe, comfortable, relaxing, and secure. Also when things are amess I cannot relax. I am always thinking I should be up doing this or that. I also tend to be cranky when the house is a mess. I never wanted anything other than to be a wife and mom. My hubby also has these beliefs. When our oldest was a baby, I worked and he was in daycare but he was sik alot and my hubby said he would rather that I stayed home and by then I was expecting again and so we both thought I needed to be home. Altho I can tell you that if hubby walked in the door and it looked like a tornado had gone thru he'd be ok w/ that too LOL...Does that make sense? For him me being home is more abt what I'm doing with the kids, like books, games, ect. Where as for me it is about cooking home made meals, making the "home atmosphere" and even having chocolate chip cookies warm when the boys get home from school, as well as the puzzels we do and the games we play..

As for the mothering, well Im a bit confused..I suppose Im not sure to go abt the partnering. My mother was the type that "mothered" my dad. So I guess I have always felt that was just how it was...learnign a new way will be dificult. I'm trying to figure out how to go abt it..

Wren

Here is my suggestion: "but he just didn't get it." I wasn't speaking of actuality...it is there, and you know it well. I was speaking of his desire behind the whole project, how he needed that more than his need to "get it." He has a whole he wants filled, like many of us, and that is where I was hoping you would focus.

He gets it. He just didn't choose to let it go when you wanted him to, because to him, it was choosing to be nothing, defective, a loser...or choosing you. He chose you.

Good to know that your actions to make it spotless isn't for him, but also you. Knowledge is the key, here. Knowing what you choose and why.

Partnering IS difficult...I was in your boat, too, not having an example of what partnering was. Believe me, I do hear you. First, I just stopped mothering. Stopped it. Didn't know what to replace it with. At the time, I was doing Listen and Repeat, no LBs and examining my life. Somehow, in that, once I got the respect part firmly in my beliefs, I began partnering. Just happened.

It was foreign to me. My mother mothers me to this day, and everyone else. Now that I see how disrespectful that is, like God showing me the long lasting effects of it, I use that to shore up my conviction to not do this.

Reading Harley helps...but I guess I'm saying, good luck with that. You can do it, I have no doubt. You can sing songs after you've learned them, right? You'll find the song.

I have to go, but I wanted to ask you to look at your fears...in your response to me, I picked up on you explaining more of what you'd told me, like I wasn't getting it. I got it. I got the whys of his nonpaycheck and its allure; I got that you both wanted you to be a SAHM and this was in conflict with reality; I also got that you both solved these conflicts your own way. My post was not in the not getting...it was aimed at your fears of not being gotten. Hmm. Can I mangle my communication anymore, ya think?

But I KNOW you get it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Think about all the shoulds you have in yourself...about relaxing, being a mother, a wife, a human...and look at the fear behind them. When I was full up on them, I threw them over on my DH, like spit, instead of doing what I'm asking you to do. Life got a lot better. Without self-judgment, we stop judging others, depending on THEM to change, make better choices and to keep us safe.

You can allow yourself great hope for your marriage, Wren...you are very capable, aware and loving. And you're half the marriage.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

TJ

LA, I have a message for you from adrianc. I don't know how to get it to you. He needs you to find him in general II. Look for "iknow". You should go quickly.

end of TJ

lovinganyway,
your as inspirational as anyone ive ever read or listened to. i found great solice your replies. they are based on the truth.......both must want to repair the damages in our marriages and make concerted efforts to do it.
right now...in my own ...im the only one interested. she says she is but becomes very indignant at the suggestion that i might need something also. i guess her "taker" is still taking. unfortunately, after the long period of time of being seperated (1-1/2 yrs) my taker has crawled in. id love to just have her back the way she was before we were married 3 yrs ago. i was convinced she loved me.
keep up your intuitive responses....theyre dead on.

Hi, Cam...

Glad you're here. I don't see where you've made your own thread. Would you do that? Your story is coming out in pieces across other threads you relate to--which is great because you're sharing, but difficult to follow and ask questions of. If you make it, they will come.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I appreciate your words very much. Thank you. My premise was that one person can save a marriage...and it sounds like you've been doing that. If you had your own thread, we could explore those changes more, find out why you see your marriage the same...which goes against the dynamic of changing one changes all.

And here's hoping Wren posts again...now that I'm back from vacation...I thought about her (third person allowed when she's NOT updating...heehee) and looked forward to seeing a reply. Unhappy bunny here on E-Day.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Found the egg...Traic...now I gotta crack the code...iknow....

LA

lovinganyway
well after almost 3 months of no communication at all (tried the "love must be tough" strategy) my estranged wife of 1-1/2 yrs. sent a small email to me saying she missed me. like a fool looking for a crumb , i bit and told her how i still loved her etc.. as soon as she saw she "still had me" her emails got distant again blaming me for the noncommunication. i guess i didnt complete the idea like dr. dobson said and it backfired on me.
now my wife and i got together and walked for 2 hrs (mustve been about 8 miles) and her attitude is that i sent the message by not communicating that to her it was over and she had to start figuring out what she was going to do.
after talking again about things that did and didnt happen 3 years ago when we got married (absolutely nothing that couldnt have been talked out if shed have talked) shes decided to take the advice of her church friends and wait till after a seminar about "reconciliation" and go whatever way God leads her. the reconciliation revival isnt about marital reconciliation but reconciling with God. hopefully, marriage will somehow a topic that gets covered too.
i told her that if she feels led to do anything but come back to me.........God isnt doing the leading. she has absolutely no biblical basis for divorce. dr. dobsons book covers the ultimate rationalization..."ive prayed and Gods answer was to divorce" he continues that guilt has been expunged and evil has won.
she also said that God has provided her a way out if she chooses to do it. she said that she can divorce me because she is unhappy but.....cant ever marry again. this is true but she left out the part that she can not have sex either or it is adultry. she said no problem. i believe shes either "short circuited" or shes making herself out a liar.
my Bible , in every verse i read, says to be forgiving, loving, respectable & on & on. all of which go together to work for our relationships.
what do you think???

Cam,

"my Bible , in every verse i read, says to be forgiving, loving, respectable & on & on. all of which go together to work for our relationships.
what do you think???"

I believe God designed us with the abilities to be forgiving, loving, respecting, accepting, understanding; which is different than God saying be those things...he is saying choose to focus on that which is already in you. Of course, I am also manipulative, cruel, resentful, angry, frustration--my choices, also.

I don't believe in strategies, Cam...because God gave us choice, no control of others...seems to me that manipulating others is, anytime (marriage, too) would be a love buster to God and ourselves. Know why God gave us choice? He knew that if he didn't, then we would have no choice but to worship him, correct? How fulfilling and true is a love you forced?

Luckily, as humans, we can't force love. I would go with Plan A for you because it has a personal goal...not a strategy...it is your belief to save your marriage...and one person can do that. The intent is NOT to get your wife back into your marriage...because you don't have that control, and pretending you do...with threats, etc., denies her very real choice...she chooses and you choose.

Plan A is about changing you, which changes the relationship as a result...you get great results for yourself, and they spill over. You went with Dobson's plan because she was in an affair? She is physically abusive? Why did you choose tough love? Drug addiction?

Look to the intent of your choice, not the result...Become safe by eliminating lovebusters (LBs)...to help you, I'm focusing on DJs (disrespectful judgments) both to others and to yourself will enrich your life and relationship. This isn't me attacking or judging you...I was in your shoes once and had no idea...so I'm going to quote yours to give you an idea:

"she says she is but becomes very indignant" she states her belief that she is interested in restoring the marriage...then you DJ her with saying "but" and defining her emotion.

"at the suggestion that i might need something also. i guess her "taker" is still taking." I'll wait for you to fill me in, but defining someone else's giver/taker is a DJ...you two are separate and equal people...you only are allowed by God to define yourself, not others. This is to keep his children safe.

"unfortunately, after the long period of time of being seperated (1-1/2 yrs) my taker has crawled in." This is not a DJ...and I can hear your taker...DJ's jump up during this time...not bad or good...definitely unsafe.

"id love to just have her back the way she was before we were married 3 yrs ago." This is a DJ because you wish to change another person, when you are the only who can change. Wishing for this isn't what God wants...for others to be different...he wants for us to embrace ourselves, his individual creation, and in his relationship with us, to thrive in our purpose. Change around your DJ for information about you--that originally, you felt, thought and believed...she gave you, filled you, provided you...what?

"i was convinced she loved me." You cannot define her beliefs...she may have and may still, may always choose to love you. Her choice. None of your control. You can say, "I believed she loved me." Sounds so similar, doesn't it? You can choose to believe she loves you...not from her feelings, but her belief.

"like a fool looking for a crumb," This is you DJing you.
"i bit and told her how i still loved her etc.." You chose to tell her your feelings. Own that choice. She didn't make you...she told you hers. They were hers. Respect that she does miss you.

"... as soon as she saw she "still had me" her emails got distant again blaming me for the noncommunication." Own what you did...you went to noncommunication (though I would think that would include email as well) because you believed choosing to do so would save your marriage. It didn't. You DJ when you say her emails got distant again and blamed...she said you went dark and she feels fearful...if that's what she said...anything else is an assumption. Assumptions and mindreading kills marriage with disrespect.

"i guess i didnt complete the idea like dr. dobson said and it backfired on me." Probably why I recommend to go for authentic over manipulation...if you had been in Plan B after a great Plan A...then you wouldn't have gotten her email...the offer to reconcile would have come through a third party, complete with her agreeing to do what your Plan B letter asked her to do...all respectful...not manipulative.

You feel her pain inside of you and she feels yours...take back yours and hand her back hers. Use Listen and Repeat, only volunteer "I feel" and "I believe" statements...and inject respect into your life...this isn't sacrifice if you believe you are two separate and equal people, hurting very badly and trying to make their way through this life, with only the example of you hurt me I hurt you to follow. That Jesus' reactions (chosen actions) are unobtainable and humans just have to muster along, reactively...change your life by changing your beliefs...Jesus did not walk around healing people passing him by...they had to ask. He respected them, did not assume they desired being healed, believing in God...always respectful of their choice.

The safer you become to you and to others, the less your taker will speak...the more balance you will have between your giver/taker...because taker's wake up loudly when you are abusing yourself, too...DJs to self, perspective of deprivation...Taker's don't react to reality, but to your perception of it. Choose it wisely. Choose balance.

You are not alone...your wife DJs, also...equally, you might say " and her attitude is that i sent the message by not communicating that to her it was over and she had to start figuring out what she was going to do." No respect in assumption/mindreading/interpreting...however, this is where tough love needs a letter to show the way back...from being wayward, in affairs and other addictions. It should never be used to rule someone's life...cut off their choices...because that will ensure you are dangerous to them.

"i told her that if she feels led to do anything but come back to me.........God isnt doing the leading." I fully believe you are correct...however, it remains a DJ, UNLESS you said, "I believe you truly want to be led by God. I believe bibilically, that means restoring the marriage." However, I don't think you owned your beliefs, but stated them as universal truths...please don't do this. God has a personal relationship with all his children...defining what others "should" believe is a DJ just as much as telling them their own beliefs are not valid.

This is from person to person, relationship to relationship...I'm not making this hugely grand...just within the confines of God's design of humans. Remember, please, you have your truth and her truth...only the actions you both choose become "the" truth...the rest you own yourselves.

Your beliefs are valid for you...100%...changing the ones left over from before you read, researched...heck, were in long pants!...well, those are the ones to change. We have so many of them...you'll see them as you trace back your emotions to them.

"i believe shes either "short circuited" or shes making herself out a liar." Why DJ here at all? You feel anger...being rejected for nothing hurts terribly, doesn't it? She isn't rejecting you for nothing...she isn't rejecting the marriage because she's unhappy...she is in turmoil, horrific, aching pain and just wants it to stop...and she believes you are hurting her, so if she hurts you enough, you'll stop hurting her. And I believe, you feel the same way. Very human. Very destructive.

Heal your pain from the inside out...what you generate with your permissions to LBs, DJ yourself, all of it comes between marriages and our relationship with God. Really does. He loves you...and no one wants to watch their children slap their own little faces over and over again and point at their partner. Hurts. It can stop. Your choice. Your power.

Tell me more about your why your marriage separated...if this is a pattern for you, and how you believe marriage can now be after reading HNHN, Love Busters and about the Love Bank.

LA

la
in all cases ive ever dealt with...and im 49 years old, i agree with you that playing games and trying to manipulate someone is absolutely the wrong thing to try to do. i also agree that the things ive resorted to are "tactics". the last of which i tried was the one prescribed by dr. dobson on tough love and pulling back and getting my own self confidence back. i had hoped that no contact would inspire some of those lost or forgotten feelings in my wife. it didnt work like i said before.
ive been to christian counselors and all said i should not only work on myself (im introverted) but suggested i take a stand with her and couldnt understand why i didnt. as pointed out in harleys & dobsons books when a person has been left or cheated on you initially feel responsable and it robs you of self-confidence and diminishes self esteem. id say on an introverted person ...its even worse.
when my wife left ....she cited that i hadnt shown her enough affection and she was right. ironically, for the 4 years we dated prior to marriage she never mentioned any problem in that area..........which led me to think it was ok. as i worked on trying to restore her feelings for the past year and a half...i tried to show her more affection and was totally rejected. but i kept trying and as it became apparent to her and others that i was trying to show affection...her requirements changed. then it was i didnt do enough recreational items with her. again...we did everything together before marriage and it didnt change after. but , again, i upped my participation. and again, another obstacle arose. she just couldnt trust me with her feelings and this is the one that has stuck up to and including the present time. she finally hit on one i couldnt visibly conquer.
i did the wrong she claimed about the affection and i can tell you what i think led to my withdrawal from that. i became angry with her during our time together because she absolutely wouldnt do a thing in the house. i cleaned ,dusted changed beds, and cleaned the bathrooms. i did my own laundry and usually ended up at least folding hers. i payed the bills ,cared for the vehicles, and the outside .......you name it i did it. she cooked , maybe, 3-4 times a week at which time i set the table and cleaned up afterwards. i thought i was being a considerate ,good husband. i dont drink ,smoke, use drugs ,gamble and never was abusive to her. we both have been blessed with good jobs ..so we didnt have money issues. she spent whatever she wanted and did or didnt do just as she pleased. my anger that i kept inside (that thwarted my affection) came about because she didnt appreciate anything i did. she didnt respect me (even the bible tells a woman to do that for her husband)and when i had had a bad day at work and would try to share it with her ...she always made it all sound like my fault (maybe it was but i didnt want to hear that from her). so.......i stopped talking and so did she.
our pastor (hers from childhood) counseled us right after the seperation and concluded that i had made some mistakes but i had apologized and agreed to make the necessary changes and that she ,as a christian, was obligated to forgive as God forgives. guess what????? that was the last time we went to that church. she has no use for that pastor now.
for me ..i need black & white and very little gray area. the bible is that black & white. it clearly states how we are supposed to live even when we dont. im a chief offender of which im not proud. i was guilty of not upholding my biblical obligations to my wife when it comes to affection. she is even (in my mind)more guilty because shes left me, with held herself from me for 1-1/2 yrs., and refuses to forgive me and last but not least, i believe she has had either an emotional or physical affair on me.
the pastor , at the time of counseling , told me afterwards that something else was behind this because i hadnt done anything to warrant a biblical divorce. he suggested the above. i refused to believe this christian girl would cheat on me so i didnt check anything until he kept putting it up to me. thats when i found the phone calls on our cell bill to her old boyfriend. naturally, they only admit what you have hard evidence to prove and she said it was just "she needed someone to talk to" well........the longest phone call was for 3 minutes. you figure the rest. of course, according to her she has done nothing wrong in all of this and anything that resembles wrong ...i caused.
i cant make her feel anything and i cant "trick" her into coming back just like you said. why would i want a woman who doesnt want me?? but........i still feel in my heart that if we BOTH followed the scriptures , admitted our faults and strived to correct them ..this marriage could be saved.
just like you said.....i can only work on me and i have. sad as it is.....no ones suggesting for her to work on herself. our new church is far too relaxed to confront her even though every sunday they stress the importance of small group accountability and the sharing of problems & pain. i agree with this but unfortunately, they arent practicing what they preach. everybody seems to be afraid to confront her on this , i suppose, because they know that anybody who has ....shes broken off with.
id love to have the time to tell you about the mistreatment ive endured for the last months in an effort to build up the love bank credits in her account for me. to no avail.
you talk about dj her....your right i shouldnt do that. maybe God will lead her away from me....i still doubt that.
continue on your thoughts......ive given you a little more to fumble through. dr. dobsons book is right....the person cheated on does feel like they become the victim and everything that goes with that ...i feel. its probably intensified because of my introversion. im now fighting back and feel im not that terrible of a person nor was i THAT bad of a husband. at least , im workable (trainable).from the conversations all have had with her...she knows it all and theres nothing wrong with her. i wonder??
much more ............one more thing she said just last week. she said she didnt want me to kiss her butt. does that send out any signals that i missed???

I get that you tried to change to her standards...affection, RC, etc. I'm not asking for you to work on those things...they are with the wrong intent. Changing you for you is with a pure heart...the others attempts were with the purpose of changing someone's mind.

"she just couldnt trust me with her feelings and this is the one that has stuck up to and including the present time. she finally hit on one i couldnt visibly conquer."

This is the FIRST thing I would have encouraged you to do. To become safe. Safe from overdoing, holding resentment, being sacrificial...all of this contributed to your very unequal partnership. Doesn't look abusive...but pleasing is very abusive.

I believe that your wife is wayward...she remains wayward by choice. Your part is in aiding her resentment, which fueled her entitlement and participated in the lack of respect that led to her affair. Did you snoop or have a PI check out her relationships before or after she moved out?

I was wayward...so I'm not leaping here, too far.

And my intention is not to hurt you. You cannot control your wife's lies by omission...not telling you all along her thoughts, feelings and beliefs...but you can control yourself, eliminate your LBs and inject respect so that you KNOW you're separate and equal. Then there can be intimacy...and she can still choose to lie by omission. The difference is, then you have a code and cannot.

Now, in my long post to you, I said all this...and I'm not sure you believed I was not bashing you...my honest intent was to uplift you. Yet, who am I to speak for God?

So let me recommend "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend. All scripturally based...and it covers your role in the marriage...what you did that you were proud of was actually half of the marriage's undoing. You didn't know. You were instantly forgiven by God...and I know you will forgive yourself.

This book is black and white...straight at you, simple and direct. Tells God's truth in an easy format. See if it speaks to your heart...frees you...raises you, where I could not.

Oh, I see where you do believe she is in an A...okay, when are you going to get proof? It is necessary for your growth and truth...and hers.

Please get proof and expose. This is the right thing to do if you do it for the right reason. WS's hide from truth; it is evil to help them withhold it...for it is destructive to themselves and their lives.

Please stop putting yourself as defective. You can't me. Not by any stretch...Cam, you are whole, complete and marvelously made. You were loved before you were born and you know this...apply this to yourself. No more comparisons between you and her or anyone else. God shudders when you measure what he has created as infinite.

I don't want you to DJ her because then you DJ yourself...giving permission to yourself to DJ anyone gives you permission to do it to yourself...and you're precious. Please stop doing it...investigate it and know it for what it is...you can do that for yourself. I know you can.

Dr. Dobson's book is marvelous, I've heard. What I know is that WS have to have the victim mindset FIRST, before they cheat. Not just during. Please know that part. And you didn't make your wife a victim...your power in half the marriage was your part. Hers was hers. Please stop judging which was worse...you're only stunting your own growth.

Please read Boundaries...and stop focusing on her at all. That doesn't mean cut her off or withdraw. Allow her to initiate conversations, but only listen and repeat. Read the book, pray and know your way...to freedom. Respect. Then we'll talk, 'k? Start your own thread...you are worth one...

You can save your marriage. And your life.

In your corner,

LA

LA
again im amazed at your insights although some of your thoughts are too deep for me to understand. maybe when i read the book you suggested...and ,yes, i will read the book.
im at a point with my wife that i never thought i get to and im ashamed to say it. its now been so long and ive tried so hard with little acknowledgement that i feel im wasting my time on her. certainly, itll not be wasted time if i can help someone else , like you have me, or if way in the future someone else takes a chance on me.
im now sure she'll not be coming back....nothings different,nothings changed but...golly, its been so long. im convinced that it doesnt matter what i do at this point shes completely disconnected with me and leading her own life ..so whats left???
ive prayed since the beginning for reconciliation , for me to learn and grow so i could be a better match for her but i guess God has a better plan. when she finally divorces me ,i know scripturally, i can have another relationship at some point but the sting will be there for life.
the books ive read tell me to not "actively seek divorce" and i guarantee they will slam the lid on me before i file for divorce. maybe im outthinking myself but im going to try to do what is right. not just right for me but right in the eyes of God and his people.
if a person has to dissect everything he does or is about to say before he says anything to his mate ...the relationship becomes more work than most people will tolerate. i think my mate was and is just a rogue and decided early in the marriage she just didnt want to be married. she told me 2 months afterwards that she prayed every night that id have an affair so she could divorce me. does this sound like a woman that wants to be married??? does this sound like a woman who was in love with her husband?? i dont think it does. i couldnt begin to tell you what i wouldve taken from her and still i wouldve loved her. i thought thats what its all about.
by the way.......i dont know how to start my own thread...can you help me??

I know it has been a long time, you're worn down and struggling...

I am asking you to consider...what if you did half of the love bank draining yourself? What if half of your feeling worn down came from you?

Would that perspective recharge you in anyway? When there is a mis-applied Plan A or Plan B (or both, you overachiever, you)...then recharging can bring different results. You were slow to own there was an A...because it is so painful to you?

Tell, me...why haven't you obtained that truth?

Oh, start your own thread...GREAT idea. Whoa. Forgot where I was.

Okay...click on "Main Index" on the yellow bar at the top of the page...then (my suggestion...your choice), scroll down to Infidelity - General Questions II forum and click on it. (it has the most traffic)...then go to the bottom...or was it the top of the listing and click "Post"...put in your subject and tab to the next box for your post...if you want, cut and paste your posts (ours, if you like) from this thread as your new post...great background...only, do Mulan's old eyes a favor (and you wouldn't know I have bifocals, but I do), and make paragraph breaks for easier reading.

There is a great poster Forever Hers, here, and many others...get their input...you have nothing to lose. You are aching to act, and I say, pause now...what you think you've been doing isn't what you've been doing...your desire hasn't matched your choices because you didn't have the knowledge...this last 18 months you have been the best you could with what you knew, when you knew it...you haven't come close to shining your marvelous self.

You will. If you choose. You are sincere, earnest, desirous and pure of intent...trust me on this...you won't know you did everything you could to save your marriage (which is what will clear you spiritually and emotionally, if she chooses divorce)...until you recharge, learn and free yourself of what you've been doing before.

I'll see you on your own thread.

Maybe Wren will come back, huh? Like you were just filling her thread while she was gone?

Ack.

I participated in a massive threadjack...and it was me doing it. I'm sorry, Wren.

Well, at least when I said you weren't alone...uhm...I REALLY meant it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

la

i no doubt did half of the love bank draining. but, it wasnt intentional ..if id have known it was happening i wouldve tried to curtail it.

i have to go back to your suggestion about reading the book "boundaries in marriage". i bought it and am reading it now. there is no doubt that i made mistakes from the onset on setting up boundaries with each other. but , that being said, you have to be working with a person that admits their faults also. mine has not and will not. to her.......its all my fault. in the beginning i said "no" a few times to things i didnt think would make such an impact on her emotionally. when i found it did...and it was too late, i became passive just as the book suggests and that turns out to be wrong also. she did anything she wanted to and i humped up and took it. my fault.

i realize now (i guess i knew all along) i can only control and change myself and no one else.

you asked if i had proven her adultery?? no i havent , other than the printout of our cell phone bill. the proof , in my mind, came on her reaction to confrontation about it. she acted exactly as dr. dobson suggests in his book that all adulterers act. she was offended that i could possibly question her integrity or honesty in turn making it my fault for not trusting her ....how could i??? the funny thing was ...right after that ...she got her own cell phone and number with the bills sent to her place.

she informed me at the time "she didnt want a man who snooped in her business" and she wouldnt stand for that. when she shouldve , if she was innocent, offered any proof of innocence at any juncture of this relationship until trust was restored. dr. dobson concurred with this in his book.

the next incident she did was ,while at work, she had a job that required her to take samples to a place and drop them off. she invited a young, guy in the middle of cheating on his wife with a girl she works with. they would go to "make the sample delivery" and then spent a lot of time searching all over town to go to a sit down resturant to go in and cry on each others shoulders. this in my mind was completely inappropriate behavior for a christian wife even if it was innocent. we brought this out in front of the christian counselor and she agreed with me that it wasnt appropriate behavior.

at any rate.......i havent and probably wont hire a pi to investigate her. what would it help??? it would only serve to prove what im sure of anyway.

the point is , as you well know, i can correct myself but...until she has a complete change of heart...that only God can do...this marriage is doomed. i only hope ..down the road she doesnt regret her choice and want to come back. my feelings might have turned by then. of course, God commands that i continue to try even though shes given me biblical reason to divorce her. shes holding out till i file the paperwork , i believe, somehow she thinks this absolves her responsibilty somehow.

now what???? i like your feedback and thanks for your help.

How are you liking the book? Are you only hearing it tell you that you were wrong? Try reading it with self-compassion, then. It's not telling you that at all. It is saying, "Look! Take heart! Here's your power, always was, all along!"

"mine has not and will not. to her.......its all my fault." Every WS has to shield themselves from reality, and they do it this way, by not bearing their own responsibility...they can't and continue to self-medicate. Her saying it is all your fault doesn't make it so...just her truth, for her reasons, and nowhere does it say for you to believe a WS's truth. It's toxic. Put it down. Leave it down.

Now, having typed all that about fault...where are you seeing blame in the that book? There is no blame in marriage. Period. There is two complete people with their own responsibilities...no blame. Begin viewing yourself, life and marriage in a very real context...your choices and her choices. No blame.

How complete were you when you got married? How complete was she? What did you complete in each other instead of being two wholes complementing one another?

No blame or fault...just how was it really, so you'll know what you need to work on in you.

Find your payoff in not enforcing your boundaries...was it so that she wouldn't do something to you, but you would still do it to her, therefore, couldn't enforce? Didn't want to enforce because then she enforced her boundary?

Hey, life's messy...if it involves any humans. Find out your dance, the permissions you give yourself to react and be reacted to--and you'll come closer and closer to how complete you already are.

You know of her infidelity...did you expose to her work and family, to your family, and friends? Can you file for divorce on adultery grounds? This is bringing truth to light. Doesn't require her consent. You know and that is what matters. Living separated by married after all this time may give you grounds by abandonment...I don't know. I don't know legal for where you are. I'm encouraging you to know.

As for you not wanting her to regret...back that thinking off...that's a DJ. And don't let yourself go further than today into the future. Nada. Stay present, reading and understanding, coming here to say, okay, here's what I chose to do...and why it felt good. What model you were following in yourself...goes back to the childhood stuff.

Let's look at all that in you, so you can really know the way you think, what you believe and how it is affecting your decisions, emotions and your life.

Loving detachment in this process. Find out the information you don't know legally, and pray for guidance. God is with you. You know that. Do not judge anyone, anymore. Leave that in his hands. You are worth giving attention, time and respect to...for you from you.

Let's keep your focus on you until you can keep it there, with delight.

LA

la

many thoughts of yours to address. first, i like the book. it gives so much insight both good and bad for me. understand ...during the course of this debacle, ive read lots of books and there are bits and pieces of each one that show up in the others. near as i can tell ..the one that keeps popping up in each one is "you have to stand your ground" they word it differently in each book ie. set boundaries, tough love, etc.

that doesnt mean in any case you should be disrespectful and very clearly delivery and motive are everything. my wife & her mother made a statement that "everthing i do..i do to try to make myself look good". i was flabbergasted at the suggestion. i really dont care what others think as long as my wife was getting what she needed/wanted. the very thought that these two would come up with that should be an indicator of what ive been up against.

my response to her , after i composed myself, was the when a person tries to do right......looking good is a by-product. it cant be helped. my intent was to be good to you and do the right thing and i couldnt care less how i looked.

you asked about the divorce laws for this state..wv. well, near as i can tell from a lawyer i talked to...you can not use abandonment or adultry as a reason for divorce. oh , you can write it on the paperwork but...it doesnt make any difference in the outcome or division of property. our system doesnt care whos at fault.......just how quick they can run you through the system ...pay them and the lawyers. for them its about how many they can divorce in a day.

according to what i was told ..abandonment (i thought this and adultry were my reasons) only pertains if the spouse leaves the country...not just your abode. like i said , adultry.......they dont care.

i dont know what happened from 2 weeks ago and now since we talked for 2 hours and i made a couple short phone calls to her..telling her i was still interested....she has made no attempt to email , call or anything. she and i both exchanged "i love yous" which i wouldve thought brought some more interaction. it hasnt. i cant continue to make all the attempts to rekindle this.

now what????