I don't believe Plan A, rekindling, is your answer here. Might be your choice...since you didn't do an authentic one...did you? One with respect, boundaries, listening and repeating, being safe, not pleasing, seeing WW as new?

You can't rekindle with a WS...best you can do is change you so much you're new, strong, with respectful boundaries, thoughts and beliefs. Exposing the A would also be important because then the truth would be out there.

You're in a tough situation to fit into any mold. Have you thought about calling the Harley's for some advice?

About standing your ground...are you saying this has been the most difficult for you in your life? I didn't even know what boundaries were, nor had them on myself or for others. Plenty of fear, no structure, so standing my ground, except with my kids, wasn't much thought of--I was ceaselessly wrong. In being and in doing. I lived like it was all me...by taking blame, I felt I had power to prevent pain. To make it stop hurting for everyone. I was a great disrespecter...and being clueless about it.

I guess my gut is telling me for you to file for divorce and have her served. Maybe this would be your marital boundary...that there is no marriage without fidelity, honesty, openness and communication. I don't know. I'm really lost...biblically, you have grounds. Your choice to love her remains. God's telling you something...I think he knows far better than I do.

Could you tell me your fears on each possible plan...A, B or D...or Plan Cam?

LA

la,

im not sure what the abbreviations stand for in your threads...i guess i havent read harleys plan a or b. what is a "ws" or "ww" ??

i thought i stood my ground pretty good as i got older. something i guess came with maturity. but...i was "soft" in my teens & 20's when it came to giving in. i tried to make people happy even if i meant i wasnt. i have always tried to keep my word...a promise, vow, or any other word i made i tried to keep to a fault. maybe i thought that that was one thing i could be remembered for.

i admire your courage to tell what you did about "having plenty of fear" in your last thread. the fear ive had for the last year & a half is ..i couldnt rekindle , by doing all that the books had told me to do, her "in love" feeling.

what i have to realize is ...with this particular type of person , even with changing myself, there was no hope with her. i dont blame myself for more than half of the problem and openly admit my faults and willingness to try to change. she has not & probably will not but thats her problem. atonement will be made for her and me.

you asked if her adultry had been exposed....??? ive told 4 of the 5 pastors at our church along with her brother & sister-in-law. her brother, you remember, broke fellowship with her because of the way she was doing. a true testimony to his dedication to the Word of God. dont get me wrong...they still communicate but dont do the things they used to do together and it really hurts my wife. UNDERSTAND..my wife denies any wrong doing or affairs.

another problem i see is that she never out-grew depending on mom & dad. to this day ...mom still makes extra food to send home with her to her apartment. she really doesnt have any responsabilities other than her bills. this is the way it was when she had her own house ...mom sent food home. naturally, she loves this. ive never told her parents what i suspect about her affairs......they knew the guy she was with before and was calling and dis-owned her for being hooked up with a married man so i know they would be devestated with this new knowledge. at least, i think they would be. at this point they might be so tunnel visioned that they would say i drove her to it. who knows?? they are leaders in their church as i stated many threads ago.....an elder as well as the churches accountant.

just a little more info for you to ponder.....

i just cant bring myself to file......i dont want an end. i want a fix. from anybody...just teasing on that one. im not desperate. i am going to try to fix myself and go on if the situation ends up calling for it.

your great help.......i hope your husband appreciates your insight......

The abbreviations list is in the Infidelity - Just Found Out Forum...near the top post (under the welcome, I think)...all sorts of acronyms/abbreviations.

WW = Wayward Wife
WS = Wayward Spouse

I thought about you today and about standing your ground...I remembered how I came to boundaries...had to first learn to stand my ground with myself...the boundaries I have for me (I call them standards...things I won't allow myself to do to others) because I couldn't get clear on boundaries...kept putting them around other people's actions...and boundaries are only about ourselves.

So, not standing our ground could be in part, no ground being there to stand on...good to look at.

"i tried to make people happy even if i meant i wasnt." This would be MAJOR self-betrayal...and disrespect. First, others are fully capable, as you are, to make themselves happy, and by you taking ownership of what is theirs means you're bound to failure and disrespect. I KNOW your intent was pure...does not change the belief as being DJ to make others happy....then you compounded that with doing it at your own expense, betraying yourself for others, which told self (the one God created) it wasn't equal to others.

Ouch, ouch and yes, I've been there. Did that for 42 years...I do know and am not judging. We were taught this was the way...earning love, being responsible for others' pain and happiness...there was a rightness to that so we believed it...it is a deep, abiding belief. That's the one to change BEFORE you can see real boundaries.

As for your word...same here...but by keeping mine to a fault, then I held others' to their words, and was repeatedly disappointed, angered and bereft. Know that anything to an extreme is toxic...too little or too much. God's sign to us...human limits for great reasons. And that what we hold ourselves to, even inhuman expectations, we will hold others to them also...even if we tell ourselves we don't...our feelings tell us our true beliefs...that we really do.

You changing you FOR you is what rekindles...with the stringent guideline that you can't change TO rekindle...only for you to fall in love with yourself again, also. Release yourself of the years of resentment confining your love of self...the false pride in what you've done for others at the cost to yourself...the resetting of all humans to equal...separate...made whole, complete and wonderful by God...and feeling the relief from bearing what isn't yours, and to fully embrace what was yours, all along.

We get what we get when we can get it...there's a purpose behind not having changed for you in the last year and half...to really know what is within your control and what never was.

Here, we differ, and I respect your human right to DJ...I can't allow you to not know you're doing it, 'k?

"...with this particular type of person , even with changing myself, there was no hope with her." She is human...every day she spent with you, fully as your beloved and loving wife, she did of her own free will--nothing you did kept her there, loving you...she chose and did and owns that. She's human. God is with her, every step of the way; respect you don't know...and own that your DJs of her killed her love, as her DJs killed yours...the feelings went away from unseen abuse...and you have learned from that. Fact of being human remains...you continued to choose to love and she may not have. I don't know. I know that what you won't own that is yours is still yours. Leave hers to her...get that deep respect going in yourself for others and for yourself. Know judgment is the battery acid of life and handling it with extreme caution is important.

"i dont blame myself for more than half of the problem and openly admit my faults and willingness to try to change. she has not & probably will not but thats her problem. atonement will be made for her and me." Would you consider removing blame and fault from your belief system?

All WS's deny any wrongdoing...if they are in Emotional Affairs (EAs) they do not call it wrong because they aren't physical ones...if they are in physical ones, well, they aren't doing wrong because their heart isn't in it...your WW is in a very common mindset...no less destructive...and your exposure was a statement of truth...only half told. You did not expose to her parents or to the OM's family...or wife, correct?

Read Plan A and Plan B here...the links are in the Harley Articles section, I think. Read them not to do them, necessarily, but know the beliefs behind them...understand respect and respect for self, better.

Do you see your focus on her negates you changing you? Can you see how figuring out her whys and hows and choices keeps you safe from your own? I'm here for you...I believe all of MB is...but I won't be helping you to diagnose her...and when I attempt to show the harm of LBs, then I go into your partner's head as a demonstration, not a fact, to show what might be that your perception wasn't allowing for...so you have more choices on what to perceive and to choose your perspective.

Okay...no to filing...I back you up on that. Then let's do a REAL Plan A...bringing out your incredible heart without fear...so you may delight in your own changes--brings us even closer to God when we are seated within his limits lovingly, willingly...and our lives celebrate us as great creations again...

In your corner...thank you for the information...and no, I used to tell H to appreciate me...now I just appreciate his insight and my own.

LA

la

havent posted for about a week now.....nothings changed except were now into the reconciliation conference at church i mentioned in prior threads. you know..the one that after she attends , she'll make her decision on how shes being "lead". i didnt even see her in the sanctuary last night. guess ill find out sometime where we're headed.

havent had one seconds communication in the last 2 weeks. she must be irritated after my last effort to reconcile with her on the 2 hour walk. i cant figure her out. i have no idea where shes coming from. maybe thats one of the reasons we arent together.

i finished reading "boundaries in marriage" as you suggested. its fine reading for all.....especially me. i had & have much to learn. unfortunately, im alone in the effort to ressurect this marriage. not one thing can help.....reading , doing , talking.......nothing when the other person cant accept their part in the problem. ive never seen such a blatant disregard for commitment ,vows and the word of God as has been occuring. all from a supremely devout christian. my small brain can not comprehend why or how a person can , somehow, tell themself they are above the commands of the Bible.


no matter........im going to enjoy whats left. continue to try to grow as a christian and not go backwards just because my selfish prayers seem to have gone unanswered. after i write the last sentence ...i see why they werent. funny how we can sometimes outthink ourselves.

if you have any more insights on this all but dead marriage...please let me know.

Nice to see you, Cam...thank you for the update.

Maybe you could share what you're learning...from the book, the conference?

What did you see in you from your marriage when you read Boundaries in Marriage?

And yes, I was an out-thinker, too. I see judgment in "selfish prayers"...truly, what other kind are there? Prayers are about our intimate relationship with God...between us and God's ears...our self to Himself...

What if we don't go backwards...what if our journey isn't linear at all?

LA

la

a genuinely good bunch of sermons on forgiveness,compassion, and generally the fruits of the spirit has been covered in the last 3 nights ...1 more to go. basically, most of the new testament principles are the same ....and we hear them really every sermon..but, just like in school..its takes repeating the same thing over and over again to finally learn it.

i cant begin to tell you how much of the book "boundaries" i see in myself. sadly, i also see where my counterpart , who cant or wont admit wrong, is covered also in the "selfish" parts.

ive always ,since youth, said yes to almost everything. as i got older i began to realize ...i didnt have to. i shouldve had enough experience in life to have the respect/knowledge from others to not have to say "yes". i still feel obligated , as a christian , to try to help others. so........when asked....i say yes. the difference is through time i developed a backbone.

during my 1-1/2 living together with my wife...i thought i could say no occasionally and be ok but when she left ..i turned into the "yes" man because i was trying to do the things she said i didnt. she didnt want that either. so , until i read the books, my reactive responses were to "cave in". i didnt know any better. now i do and its too late.

i still miss her and even though i believe she exposed her real self to me after marriage...i remember the way she was before even though it must not have been real.

i wish .........still..........things were different.

Great to hear from you Cam...wish Wrensnest were here, too!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, I have a message tonight for you...in this week of messages...hope you can fit it in...consider what "to try to help others" means to you, in your beliefs...feel it in your emotions, note the images in your mind and if you could, share them with me.

Also, tell me why you believed you had to say yes before...

This might feel intrusive, attacking...I'll respect if you do not want to share. If you can't begin to tell me how much BIM you saw in yourself and where...you might not be choosing to share.

I can deal with that. I know you'll say No whenever that is what you choose. I promise I won't take offense.

Where I'm going here is the possibility for choice, the yes or no, doesn't take backbone, strength or training. Maybe in seeing it that way, we might miss the lesson entirely.

As for something you didn't ask for...your WW didn't express her real self at any point to you...because she doesn't know it herself.

Here is where I would like to guide you to, also...knowing God through his great creation...your self.

Knowing you're wishful is a good thing...being wishful is destructive...we don't know what will be or won't...we don't DJ God, do we? You wish you knew then what you know now...is that correct? There is a purpose here you're missing...which will give you hope from inside you for you...you had to not know then so you could get to now...

LA

la

i really dont have any reason not to tell you the things you ask. id like to think im an open ,honest person even though my wife thinks otherwise. thats her problem.

the things i saw in myself from the book is exactly what the title indicates ..i set no boundaries and neither did she that i recall. whatever she said , even though, i didnt like it ...i said nothing to. let it go & let it happen. i was sure based on what i was beginning to see, she would take great strides to "show me" she wasnt going to do or consider anything i said. certainly, i wasnt her master and im not her boss.......but in a good marriage i wouldve like to have had my feelings at least considered. saying that, most of the time without expressing myself ........she wouldnt have known.

you know......its pretty tough to get to really adjust, learn and know your spouse in the short period of 1-1/2 years. i always heard the 1st year of marriage was the hardest and this one didnt last much past that. i believe this is an indicator of how little effort (work) she was willing to do to salvage it. i would still try to this day now knowing what i must do and feeling strong enough to do it.

you ask why i said "yes"....??? as i try to analyze myself, i come up with a couple of reasons why i mustve done it. one, i wanted to be accepted and i didnt feel that i had any special "thing" about me that would make folks want to be around me. i figured if i could do something for them ..theyd at least like me for that. an introverted person is less likely to make a lot of friends just by the mere nature of that personality. the other reason i came up with is that im better at work than i am at play. i can do a few things with my hands/mind (im a mechanic at a chemical plant & i owned/operated my own drag racing effort for 20 years) so i was more comfortable doing work for someone rather than playing with them. my wife lives to play. dont get me wrong ...i like to have fun but work only comes after play in the dictionary. she told me continually that my priorities are messed up. maybe they are.

i also had parents that didnt like to hear the word no when they asked you to do something. so you see several things got me to where i am.

the biggest thing that happened during our marriage was that when she announced "she wasnt happy" i fell apart and wanted to do anything to change to what she needed. now i know i just needed to change for me.

no excuses from me....i had and still have flawed thinking but im workable and are a work in progress. too bad other personalities egos dont allow to be humble enough to see the need for change.

the meek will inherit the earth .......if theres an earth left to inherit after all the proud folks that wont except the Lords words as the truth. maybe we should all be a little more humble.....including myself.

im still not communicating with my wife. the "peacemaker conference" at church is over now and im awaiting my wifes "leading". i doubt she'll even let me know. until 1. she developes another relationship with a man and wants to pursue it or 2. she wants to buy a house and needs the money. thats when she'll let me know the papers are coming. im still married and wont even allow myself to date or look. i dont think she shares that sentiment.

let me know

Cam...welcome to your Thursday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I really dont have any reason not to tell you the things you ask. id like to think im an open ,honest person" How we see ourselves and what we believe we're being can be two different things and we wouldn't know it. I hope you trust me enough to ask for more, for my own clarity, and know I'm not impugning your honesty. "even though my wife thinks otherwise. thats her problem." You are enmeshed with your WW, Cam. Every thought of who you are is bound up in her judgment of you. I would like to help you break that apart...free you, as I freed myself. There are no healthy relationships when enmeshment is present. Whether you divorce or don't...enmeshment kills.

"the things i saw in myself from the book is exactly what the title indicates ..i set no boundaries and neither did she that i recall." I'm like you...didn't even know what boundaries were...didn't set them...but I discovered, I reacted to them being crossed, anyway.

"whatever she said , even though, i didnt like it ...i said nothing to. let it go & let it happen. i was sure based on what i was beginning to see, she would take great strides to "show me" she wasnt going to do or consider anything i said." Where's your power here? Your choice?

"certainly, i wasnt her master and im not her boss.......but in a good marriage i wouldve like to have had my feelings at least considered. saying that, most of the time without expressing myself........she wouldnt have known." So, what are you saying here? That you did not express your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...she didn't know...or that you believe when we intimately know one another, we don't need to express?

I'm confused.

"i believe this is an indicator of how little effort (work) she was willing to do to salvage it." This belief will decimate every relationship in your life. Examine it well. Find your payoff...

"i would still try to this day now knowing what i must do and feeling strong enough to do it." I want you to see and know you for you...separate from her...from her as a symbol and a human. There are no musts or strength in being intimate...sharing who you are, though you fear judgment and rejection. This is your part of your life...your choice. Marriage or no marriage...presence, no presence...does not determine your choice. You do.

"one, i wanted to be accepted and i didnt feel that i had any special "thing" about me that would make folks want to be around me." Did you change this belief? That you earned acceptance by being different than you are? By doing instead of being? That you are special, worth being around...celebrated, even?

What kept you from marrying for so long?

"i also had parents that didnt like to hear the word no when they asked you to do something. so you see several things got me to where i am." Great insight here. Your parents weren't happy when you said no...to something they wanted you to do...could you have also taken that to mean what they didn't want you to be?

You chose to say yes to your parents...for their happiness (lack of rejection and anger)...and felt the devastation all over again when your WW said "Guess what? Saying yes to me doesn't make me happy, either." What were you left, when your yes wasn't good enough? No longer could it keep you safe by keeping others happy.

"an introverted person" You believe in labels...categories? Some people are (made that way) introverted...others extroverted...some both?

"...i like to have fun but work only comes after play in the dictionary. she told me continually that my priorities are messed up. maybe they are." What if this isn't about priorities, but beliefs? You had one belief (work then play) and she had a different one (play more, work less)...which she saw as rejection, her not being a priority, when your priority remained her...

What do you believe now? Do you work to live or live to work...and is there an inbetween? Are you worth just being with, because God made you...or do you have to earn it?

Can you recognize abuse now...from others and yourself? She said your priorities were messed up...that's defining. Had she said, "I believe you prioritize others and work over me" that would not have been abusive.

Same for happy..."I am not happy." That doesn't mean you're doing it...right? It is what she felt.

Believed.

Thought.

Do you believe that on this earth one of our needs is to be happy?

"no excuses from me....i had and still have flawed thinking but im workable and are a work in progress. too bad other personalities egos dont allow to be humble enough to see the need for change." Oh, Cam...look gently at yourself...here is where you are an abuser..to others and yourself. Humans often say, "No excuses from me" when they truly believe they were not at fault. Because they could detect there was no fault...no blame...just two humans being human...choosing destructive perspectives and holding others accountable for what is their own.

You judged others' motivation for not changing through ownership...DJ'd...threw in your requirement of humility...

We can only change our beliefs, not our selves...this is a tricky thing to see...those same people you DJ may be striving to change themselves, remake, recreate what was perfectly created...as you did...until you learned you change your beliefs, not self. You choose your perspective, beliefs, thoughts and thereby, choosing your emotions. You make what once seemed only an emotion...into a choice, a belief, directly.

We learn when everything that has gone before wears our resistance to change down enough, and we choose to believe it is better to change than live abjectly.

Everyone has their own path...for their own reasons...in this journey...God accompanies everyone...

Let's work on DJs...they are subtle, sneaky, feel right and true...and are toxic. If you want, this self examination is actually what I consider intimate work...removes what is in us, the choices we make, which obstructs our intimacy with God...and others.

In your corner...blessed you share your truth, live your life...you are significant and ripple around the world...every day.

LA

la,

sometimes your so deep i miss your intent and meaning.

my wife called the other night after the church conference referenced some threads ago in which she was going to decide "which way she is led". i was surprised to say the least. im also not able to discern if her intent is real or setup for the perception of the church people who influenced her to "try". she was very distant and seemed to want me to say i wasnt willing to try myself.

when i told her that i still wanted to , she proceeded to get completely irrate bringing up all her unmet needs from over 2 years ago. i thought (by her own words) she had forgiven me for the unaffection. remember...i wasnt told about this until it became too late. but .......with that said , i told her if we were to try ...we have to get past dead center and move forward , not backwards. a new slate has to be established , one that has the boundaries set and communication established in all aspects. im still not sure at that point if she was serious about trying. she was very negative........which is not what i want to hear if we are both serious about this effort.

she continued that she didnt know how to start over...and where would we start. we ended up saying we would just talk on the phone.

many have suggested to me.......that if you are to work things out ..you have to be back in the same dwelling. i dont know. i do know that after 1-1/2 years of no affection...im ready for some and if it takes another 1-1/2 years for her to "not with-hold herself " from her husband...im not willing , at this point, to wait much longer. biblically, i can divorce her........shes given me plenty of scriptural reasons and i can re-marry if i choose.

i guess the best thing thats come outta this is ...i know im gonna be ok and i can and do have a life thats busy and fulfilling for me.

another thing that was talked about was the books id been reading. boundaries in marriage and love must be tough...along with all of harleys. she claimed she'd read a bunch of them and didnt intend to read more at my suggestion that she read the one on boundaries. her comments were ....."those books only talk about the positive and marriages are saved and thats not real."

i frankly dont care if she reads them now or not. i intend to only deal with the positive......ie the books and their content. if shes not interested enough in reading more positve reinforcement......how serious is she at "working" on our relationship????!!!!

im tired of hearing her negativity and hopelessness on marriage.

im trying not to let her bring me back to the point i was...ie. the need for her and poor self-esteem that plagued me after she left. i find myself loving her all over again with each conversation that is pleasant. im really really sure she doesnt share that same feeling because she still doesnt want visual or bodily contact and i dont know when she will.

being blunt with her ...while being honest and open (like id like to be) doesnt endear her to me like the books say. i have to really be careful how i word everything...because she seems to be so thin skinned.

the question i have is ...if all relationships require a person to think extensively on how to approach this person..and word everything so carefully as to not offend them .is it really worth it?? it becomes so much work it wears me out.

the books said id get to this point....and to try to avoid complacency when the person indicated they might want to come back. they may have waited too long. it may not matter at that point.

just how im feeling.........it means alot to me but......but only me ........and thats life.

Hey, Cam...! We soooo gotta get our own thread...I had a definite guilt pang when I saw Wrensnest's thread and knew it was you.

:::::

"the question i have is ...if all relationships require a person to think extensively on how to approach this person..and word everything so carefully as to not offend them .is it really worth it?? it becomes so much work it wears me out."

What a different perspective you have! Relationships require two humans...and that's it. People who require other stuff make the relationship require stuff.

If you were committed to being an open and honest human being...sharing your thoughts, feelings and beliefs, with everyone...and listening, acknowledging and respecting others, as well as yourself...you think that would be too much work for you?

The by-product, not your goal, is that your spouse's EN for O&H is met; as is for admiration, attention, acceptance, conversation==intimacy. To know and be known, not to know to be known.

You will repeat this relationship if you choose that perspective, Cam. See, love isn't effort in the way you're describing...that's being a respectful human...Love is a verb, you do loving acts...but because you choose to love, the acts themselves are the reward, not the response. You get thrilled by being God's creation, having the power of choice and love...and being loved by God...knowing you are as separate from others as you are from God...because all creators are in their creations...and God is in us...speak and be with others as though they were God...then work your way back to them being human, like you...and know you are delightfully fulfilling your purpose.

"the books said id get to this point....and to try to avoid complacency when the person indicated they might want to come back. they may have waited too long. it may not matter at that point." Your choice. Period. If you get all your lessons...why you resent, hide, punish, judge, expect, feel pain, believe blame, hold others to your standards, or have a different set for yourself...find out why you believe it is okay to kick yourself but not others...okay to read minds, assume motivations...get inside someone else and the judge the heck out of them in vengeance for your pain (which is yours)...

Then yes, you might be ready to move on. Are people replaceable? Do you want to divorce on biblical grounds (which say what your choices can be...and leaves the choice in your hands alone)...or on Cam grounds? Knowing a lot more coming out than you did going in...so you don't re-enact. You don't relive this exact same scenario...when the packaging and preparation looks like nothing the same...you will.

"just how im feeling.........it means alot to me but......but only me ........and thats life." Your DJs will kill every relationship you have...especially the one with yourself. Cam, you don't need DJs...they don't protect...they corrode.

LA