Hello all. It was suggested to me that I cross-post my questions into this section to tap into the mass of experience by the posters here.

Here is a link to the thread going in the EN forum:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2985454

There's quite a bit of backstory in that thread linked above.

The situation boils down to that I moved out a little over two weeks ago when I found out she was talking to another guy. When I found out, I confronted her and she swore up and down she would stop and that she wanted to work things out. Three times in three days in a row she made these promises and continued to talk to him, thinking she could sneak it past me. I called her at work and told her that I knew she had lied to me about it again and that I wouldn't be there when she got home.

I realize now that my LBs are what pushed her to desire something more. If I had done my job as a husband, she wouldn't have had questions of "Is this it?". She has it set in stone in her head that she needs to be out on her own and play the field to see whats out there. She made no attempt after I moved out to save our marriage. She had made her decision.

After I left, I still wanted nothing but her and did some very stupid things when I found out she had brought this new guy over to the house with the intentions of sleeping with him not two days after I had left (although I don't think she ever actually did due to her being on her period at the time). I called her and told her I never wanted to talk to her again.. I said how could you do this. I even said to her that its not like her to sleep with a guy the first time she sees him and that she's not acting like the woman I know and loved. I asked her if the road to being a slut is the path she wants to take. During that phone call she only focused on how I found out all these things and that it was "weirding her out", which was by keylogging the computer.

So, by doing all of this, I have taken the situation from her wanting to "find herself" and play the field and then see how we feel about each other, to where I am now which is that she has zero romantic interest in me. She still enjoys having conversations with me on Instant Messenger, that is, until a few days ago when I told her that I can't deal with being in limbo with her.. I told her I can't deal with just being friends with her because I felt like I had to be either moving forward with her or cutting all ties with her.

As you will see in the other thread, I'd do anything to respark that romantic interest in me from her again. I know that the bad behaviors and LBs that caused her to get to the point of wanting something else can be erased. I want her to know that these habits have been acknowledged and will not happen again. Unfortunately, she is infuriated by any talking about us after all of the reasoning and desparate hanging on I did after I moved out. She has moved on in her head and if she thinks I'm not moving on as well, it will infuriate her and she won't even want to talk to me anymore.

Please.. PLEASE.. if there are any suggestions for a plan of attack here, I would be eternally grateful. I know deep down that she and I are a great match. I know in my heart that we could be extremely happy together with these LBs out of the way. We were at one time the happiest couple together that I've ever seen, but my LBs (and hers which made me solidify my LBs) chipped away at that for the first year of our marriage until she was left with no feelings of being in love with me. She still cares about me and my well-being, but has no romantic interest in me. How do I re-light that spark? My greatest fear in talking to her on Instant Messenger on a regular basis is that she will slide into a comfort zone of us just talking as friends. If she is solidified in her decision that she HAS to go out and see what else is out there to be happy, she will consciously or subsconsciously ensure that she doesn't slip back into a romance with me. I do not want to be eternally stricken to friendship land. I want my wife back. She means everything to me.

She is currently still talking to the other guy, but her sister has told me that they've both told each other they don't want a relationship. They didn't see each other for over a week, but in the past couple of days they could have and I wouldn't know. I also know from cell phone records that she's been talking quite a bit to another guy she knows through her sister, but the guy is on the other side of the country. She's actively looking for new guys to date. I'm not one of them. She has told her sister that she's very lonely in that big house all by herself and that she really hates dating, yet she still continues to pursue guys.

How do I restart her attraction to me when she's uninterested in the thought of us spending time together? She's interested in talking to me on IMs but only as friends and only under the false pretense that I'm moving on as well.

Herb,

Yes, I have some suggestions. You have done some very postive things by telling her you have boundaries and enforcing those boundaries by leaving. The usual tactic here is to emphasize that the BS NEVER leave the house, but sometimes to be loyal to your boundaries and to AVOID LB's distance may be good.

Now for the hard part. It sounds like your WW is bound and determined to continue her A, so much so that she is taking the OM to YOUR home. I guarantee you this is not for tea and crumpets. Your WW is showing all the classic signs of a WW that says " I am entitled to this A, simply because I am not in love with my husband". She will not be denied and much like the child that disregards your admonishment not to touch the stove, she will do what she wants until the pain of those actions outweighs her perceived negatives in your M. My advice is to let her be. Let her do what she needs to do and be a not so interested observor. Dr Frank Pittman does a wonderful job of describing this spouse in his book "Private Lies".

JUST REMEMBER THIS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH YOU OR WITH REALITY.

So in short, what can you do to win your WW back ?.....a lot. Ignore her actions(I know verrrrrry tough) go on with your life and make sure that every glimpse she gets of you is one of a confident, secure, and happy individual. Get out and enjoy yourself in groups of people that include the opposite sex. Dress better than well, get involved with the community or your favorite charity.

And be prepared, this is a long, long journey.

Cymanca,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. You bring up some very good points.

I'm a bit confused by a couple of things. I have different people in different threads telling me different things. In the other thread that I linked, I realized that her lack loss of any attraction for me is no surprise due to my angry outbursts during the stressful time of me leaving and after I left. I have basically been told (and agreed) that this is my fault. I've also been told that refusing to talk to her will do me no good because she has no reason to miss me. It has been suggested that I be her friend and fulfill every emotional need that she will let me in hopes that it makes her interested in me again.

Also, I can't even rightfully label this as an affair. As it stands, we are too completely split up single people in every way except for paperwork. She has no reason to feel as though she is doing anything wrong because, in all honesty, she isn't. She made her decision that she wanted to split up and see other people. She made it clear to me that I'm free to do the same and that me sleeping with someone else doesn't bother her one bit. While I didn't want and still don't want to split up or for her to see other people, I can't force her not to and have gone along with the split. I've even gone along with the idea that our house is no longer my home. She can afford it without me and plans to stay there. She thinks that I have faced that I will never live there again.

In an attempt to use reverse psychology, I've even gone so far as to tell her that I'm moving on and will fall in love again, but that she will always have a piece of my heart. At this point, that is what she thinks... that I've accepted she doesn't want me and that I'm moving on.

You said that she will continue to see other people until the pain of those actions outweighs the perceived negative in our marriage. That makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I see no reason for her to find her actions in seeing other people as painful. She's free to do as she pleases and, if anything, seeing new people is exciting and fun. It seems as though I would be waiting forever for something that has no reason to happen.

I'm having a hard time seeing how she will regain interest in me if we don't talk, because her view of me now is one that doesn't interest her. I don't see how she will see the changes I've decided to make in regards to angry outbursts and disrespect if we don't talk. I also don't see how she will see my acknowledgement that my LBs are what chipped away at her being in love with me.. if we don't talk. Obviously, if we do talk, it can't be about us or anything relating to us because she thinks we've both moved on. Any sign other than that would infuriate her because she has written in stone that this is what she wants.

I'm quite confused on how to proceed. Thank you for your suggestions. They are appreciated.

This is exactly what you need to do.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is all hunky-dorry excitment in dating land...it is not. She's having a good ole time right now partly because she still has you, her fall-back guy pining away for her, take that away and all of a sudden the dating scene grows a little darker and lonelier.

Absence has a way of helping the spouse who left remember the good as the bad memories fade.

Don't be so quick to answer her IM's, start letting her wonder a bit...takes time but it has a funny way of making someone start to wonder, and this is a good thing.

Take Cy's advice, it is your best bet.

She will notice, trust me...but at first she will think it is just a ploy to get her back, and she might also when she realizes that the changes are for real get a little ticked off that you didn't make them sooner...but eventually she might start to think "hey, he really isn't that bad, what was I thinking?"

You need to do this immediately and be very consistant.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is appreciated.

A few things I'm concerned about.

One, she already has told her sister that she really hates dating and that she's very very lonely. However, that didn't change her feelings for me. I see what you're saying about how she has me as her fall-back guy pining away for her, but as far as she knows, I've moved on and am not waiting for her and yet, still no change. Perhaps she is just in the stage of thinking me moving on is a ploy.

I also see what you're saying about absence helping her remember the good. However, others on the other thread have suggested that when she thinks of us, she will think that "us" is the old us. The only way for her to know that "us" would be enjoyable is if we talk and she sees that my I've accepted my LBs and removed them. As of right now, us isn't attractive to her at all. It seems as though, even as crappy as dating can be, that dating around or the possible guy over the next hill will always be better than the "us" she thinks of when she wonders what I'm up to.

I think I understand the logic involved here, but I don't see why she'd come back around if she has no way of seeing my changes. For instance, take angry outbursts... she may see that I'm no longer making angry outbursts or disrespecting her, but she may think that those things would happen if she and I got back together. How will she ever know that I have recognized those poor behaviors and am working to change them? And what about the LBs I did while we were married? How do I show her, even if we got back together, that my LBs of ignoring her emotional needs for financial security, excessive teasing, not being romantic enough, shying away from conversation at times, etc. would be eliminated if we were to get back together? If we talk on occassion and none of those LBs show themselves, it seems like she would just assume I'm showing her a false front and that everything would be the same if we got back together.

I don't know how to show that to her even if I do talk to her all of the time. Talking to her even less seems as though it would make showing her these changes even harder.

All of that and I'm still scared whitless that she will stumble into dating someone she falls for. She's the type that always has to have a man and easily falls for people she shouldn't. If that happens, I'm sunk.

Any ideas? I've drafted a letter in the other thread apologizing for my failures to meet her needs while were married and explaining that those things have changed regardless. I've also thought about sending her an email or calling her and telling her I'm sorry for my angry outbursts and disrespect through this split. Sending her one or both of these messages seems like the only way for her to know or think that these changes are for real and that our relationship wouldn't be the same as it was before. I need some way to improve her mind's image of what it would be like to get back together, but I need some way of doing it without her thinking that its a ploy.. because, honestly, it isn't. My life being destroyed is plenty of reason for me to change these LBs. If we talk and its just me being nice to her, being appreciative of her, meeting any emotional needs I can, wouldn't she think its just me putting up a front? She would have no reason to think that I wouldn't be the same guy with the same LBs once we got back together.

Thank you again for your time and advice. It is extremely helpful.

Herb,

She will see the changes in you over time.

You really, really need to find a way to make this about you and not about her. You have got to get your mind off of what she thinks, says, does, might do, etc.

As Cy said, this is a long, long journey.

You set your goals, and then you meet them one by one. There is NO quick fix. It takes time, consistency and perserverance.

Do what has been suggested, and after enough time has passed to see results or not you go from there.

Read up on Plan A.

This is not easy but it is do-able...unless you can not get your mind off of her, then it becomes impossible and you get to go to the funny farm because you have become a crazy person. That is what will happen if you do not make her "irrelavant" in your mind.

This is about you now, and working your Plan...meeting your goals one at a time.

Have you already sent her an email saying you are sorry? If you have then that is the same as saying it a thousand times.

I wouldn't contact her now AT ALL. You left because she was messing around on you, so why now are you doing this?

IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT!

Okay, you will not be able to get your mind off of her but you can believe that if you work your plan you have a chance at having her back as a wife someday.

As far as being worried about becoming her friend, well it is my understanding that the best foundation for a lasting relationship is friendship.

Just let her be the one to do the contacting.

I hear you. I've definitely been unable to get her off my mind. I guess I just don't know how. I go out and hang out in groups with the opposite sex and such, but most of the time I'm just thinking about her. I don't know how to not think about her. I've been thinking about her for 4 years now, since we met.

How long do I keep this up before I determine that I should've seen results? Probably impossible to know and different for every situation.

I'm still unsure on how not talking to her at all would address the issue of her image of "us" being horrible. Why would she give up the chase for someone new and better if she thinks I'm not even an option? If I'm not talking to her, how will she see any changes in me?

I have written her emails before saying that I'm sorry, but I'm moving on and going to see other people if she and I have no hope. I've never told her I'm sorry for how I've acted during this split.. those actions are most likely what caused her to lose all interest in me (right before I left she had said she still wanted to work it out, go on dates, etc.). I've also never gotten the chance to tell her that I'm sorry for failing her as a husband, which is what ultimately led to her falling out of love with her. From what I've learned in the other thread, I sure feel like her getting to that point of desiring more is my fault. Yes, I agree that she shouldn't have gone looking for it while she was still with me and that she shouldn't have given up so quickly, but I do feel like this is ultimately my fault. She didn't meet my needs during our marriage either... she did just as many things wrong as I did, but perhaps if I had met her needs anyway, she'd have been encouraged to meet mine. I do feel like this is my fault.

Prior to a couple of days ago, I thought I was a great husband. I thought she was insane and selfish to be doing this. Do you think it would be a good idea to send her that letter telling her I'm sorry for getting angry with her during the split since I've never told her that?

I have flip flopped all along, though. I have made statements that I'm moving on and so on and so forth in an attempt at reverse psychology, then I turn around and say something about how I'd like to go out sometime and see how things go. I have flip flopped several times. I've told her I don't want to talk to her anymore when I was angry about her bringing a guy over to the house, then the next day talked to her anyway. A few days ago I told her that I can't just be friends with her and now I'm telling her "its not that I don't want to talk to you, its just hard being in limbo. I'd like to talk, but not about us or bills or money or how to split things up."

At this point, the last thing said to her was that I'd like to go out sometime to see how things go. Then I told her that I couldn't handle just being friends with her and that I couldn't continue talking to her. I'm sure she feels as though I'm here waiting for her to call and want to go out sometime, which obviously isn't what I want. I'm not sure how to set this up to where it needs to be (her thinking I'm moving on and not pining away for her) so that I can set off the process.

Two days ago is when I told her I couldn't talk to her unless we were progressing by going out sometime. Since then I left a message on her IMs that its not that I dont want to talk to her, its just hard being in limbo and that I dont want to talk about things like money or splitting up the furniture and that I just want to talk.

She's been on and hasn't responded at all. Its like she's purposefully ignoring me.

So, my questions now are:

1) Do I tell her about the realizations I've made about my failures as a husband and the changes I'm making, including regarding the angry outbursts and disrespect I've shown during the split?

2) If we do talk, what can I do to make her understand that its not just a ploy and that I wouldn't slide back to my old ways if we got back together? The response I've gotten thus far is just time but time isn't going to show her that I would appreciate her more even after we got back together.

Thank you again for taking time out of your day to help me. It is very, very much appreciated.

The idea of having a written plan to follow seems to make it easier to actually do, so here's my plan.

My Plan
============

- Ignore her actions
- Go on with my life
- Don't pursue her
- Let her do the contacting
- When she does contact me, meet her emotional needs
- When she does contact me, don't talk about us
- Make sure what she sees of me is a confident, secure and happy individual.
- Get out and enjoy myself in groups with the opposite sex.
- Dress extremely well
- Get involved with the community
- Remember that things take time

Show her over time that the following LBs are things of the past:

- Angry Outbursts
- Disrespect
- Not meeting her needs of:

* taking the financial burden off of her
* spending time with her even when we've done nothing but spend time together lately
* teasing her excessively or in front of others
* not being romantic enough or showing appreciation for her
* shying away from conversation with her and at social functions


Only problems I see with the plan right now are:

- that she's ignoring my messages I sent earlier, but hopefully me ignoring her completely will turn the tables.

- once we do talk (when she initiates it), how will she see that I've made changes about myself that would change how enjoyable our relationship/marriage would be?

I love your written goals!

When she initiates conversations with you she will notice your changes, especially if they are sincere. You cannot hide postive changes, they simply are.

No I would not initiate anymore talks about your failings as a husband, no I would not tell her how sorry you were to be angry during the split. She is not stupid, she knows you had every right to be angry at that time, and that most of it was from fear, shock etc.

You don't talk your changes, you show them. Trust that they will be noticed because they will be, but again it takes time.

Put that into your journal of goals "things take time".

Actually at this point time is your friend. Your relationship will not work right now, most people get back together too soon only to find that nothing has changed and then they are back to splitting up again.

She has realizations to make too Herb. You weren't in a vacuum in that marriage, she was there too, making LB's and DJ's right along side of you.

You list of goals is the best thing you can do right now.

Remember, consistency is key.

Also when it comes to talking about being friends...you don't talk about it, it just happens. So let that happen naturally (it will if you work your plan), and then you have the opportunity to stay in her life, to show your changes, to be a friend.

It's good you identified the areas you failed in during the marriage, use these things as a guide of what NEVER to do again as the opportunities arise...you don't do them. Don't say them to her, just don't do them anymore.

Unless she wants to talk about it and brings it up first.


You are going to have start protecting yourself financially. I have no experience in this area, so will let those that do help there.

Thank you very much. This has helped me unbelievably, just having a plan. I'm already feeling my appetite coming back... I may even go use that gym membership I signed up for.

I will do exactly as you suggested as far as not talking about my changes, being sorry or any of that, unless she brings it up.

As far as finances go, she can afford the house without me. Taking the financial burden off her at this point would just mean me getting my income settled to where I would be a bonus rather than a burden. That being on my list is more or less just a reminder to keep doing what I have been doing which is bust my butt to get this house flipping business rolling.

She has agreed to take over all costs of the house including mortgage and utilities out of her personal bank account. I will take care of my expenses out of my bank account, which only include car payment, insurance, a small student loan payment, cell phone and pet expenses. I'm currently crashing at my folks until my income is more stable. We've both said that we'd like to leave things up in the air as far as taking the house out of my name. She has said "no decisions need or have to be made right now". Her saying that got my hopes up for a possible reconciliation in due time, but it could very well just be that she wants to wait until July for her annual raise to refinance.

Neither of us have made any mention whatsoever of filing papers. She has offered without me asking to leave me on her health care plan. I have a truck lease that I cannot afford without her and I currently have ads out for it in several places to attempt to sell it and go back to using my old car that I can afford. She has said that she is going to attempt to ammend the lease on her truck that my name is on so that its not on my credit. Again, this could be a sign that she's closing doors or it could just be that she's trying to help me get an apartment because she thinks that is what I want.

I have no problem with the house being in my name because her name is on it as well and paying bills on time is one of her top emotional needs... I'd say its the one that took the biggest toll on her love for me.

We've agreed on how to split up furniture in the house when I do get my own apartment. That went smoothly with no arguments whatsoever. I'm taking the couch and matching chair, the kitchen table, the master bedroom bed and the second bedroom's dresser and nightstand. There's the issue of our recent tax refund but we've agreed to essentially just split it in half, although neither of us have touched the money in our joint account.

I'm not sure if there's a need to protect myself financially or not at this point. Its all extremely amicable at this point and we've seemingly finished talking about who gets what. I've told her that now that we have everything settled I'd rather not talk about it anymore.

Thanks again for your help. It has been extremely useful for me.

If financial security is her top EN, then yes absolutely work on this.

I really like the idea of you using your gym membership. Very important in times of stress/trauma to work out. Also you might try, since summer is coming to get outside and find something you like to do such as rafting/canoeing/roller blading...anything to find passion for life again outside of your R.

This is also very attractive. One of the ideas of Plan A being creating attraction again.

A very good thread on here by Ark is "being the lighthouse" as well as any of her or Peps Plan A threads.

Perhaps if you have time you could do a search on those, I am at work and don't have time today.

Hang in there Herb, it really does get easier...but expect intense emotional roller coaster rides all along the way.

I've posted a few updates and a lot of questions in the other thread over in the EN section linked at the top of this thread here. Now that she and I are talking on AIM and occassionally on the phone about things we don't have to be talking about, should I have any concerns about her getting comfortable feeling like she can play the field with these other guys and still have me to fall back on? Someone mentioned that concern earlier in this thread, but I've also been told that I should try to be as good a friend as possible because the best relationships are based on friendship.


The changes in my attitude and how I listen to her are already being noticed I'm sure. I feel as though she may think I'm just being fake. I've always got it lurking in the back of my mind that she will always think its fake.

The changes in what I've learned and what I believe about falling in love and staying love are what I don't see her even knowing exists. She has no reason to know about it and, thus, no reason to ask. That issue right there (falling in love and staying in love) is the whole reason this is all happening. She loved me and cared about me, but fell out of love with me and thinks that it means we just aren't meant for each other. Everything I've learned says differently. I want to share these concepts with her so incredibly badly. She had said as we were splitting up that she felt stuck because she couldn't know if I was the one for her. Now I know that I *CAN* be the one for her and that I know how to be the one for her. I want to communicate this to her, but I'm trying to wait until she's seen a consistent change in my behavior so that she may actually listen to what I have to say about my beliefs. I don't want to just tell her about the changes in my behavior, I want her to see them. I DO want to tell her why these changes are happening and what I've learned that could be the answer we're both looking for.

Then again, after she said those things about feeling stuck is when she lost her romantic interest in me. I don't know that that interest will ever come back no matter how great a guy she thinks I am if she believes A) I can't be the one for her (she tried and it didn't work) and B) that she has no choice but to go date around and see whats out there to know what she wants. When we fell madly in love, I was obviously what she wanted. After we got married and we both didn't meet each other's ENs and both had serious LBs, she suddenly felt like she wanted something else. Big surprise, but how do I go about telling her what I've learned (that we can use these tools and concepts to fall in love and stay in love indefinitely), yaknow? If I ever bring it up, I think that she'd shut off completely and think it was a ploy.

Right now I'm killing time trying to show her some of my changes every time she contacts me, which has been a lot more frequently lately. From hints on her facebook profile she's posted publicly, she's still pursuing new guys as she was before, but I guess has run into some dead ends. I have no idea what she's done with who and the thought drives me insane.

She and I are talking like we used to when we first met, but she's made no attempts to want to see me or show any interest past friends. I'd normally be testing the waters with her to gauge her interest in me if I were talking to any other woman, but I've stopped myself.

I've written a letter in the other thread for review (which hasn't gone over too well thus far) that I'm planning on sending to her in a few weeks or maybe a month or so. It basically is just to tell her about changes in me, my beliefs on the whole concept of falling in love and staying in love (and "knowing" your spouse is the one for you), and what I would like to see happen. Its all about me while doing my best not to sound like I'm telling her what to do or that I know better than she does. I do explain in it what I'd like to do, but I say over and over again that I just want to communicate my changes and leave it up to her if that's something she'd like to look into. Feel free to leave some feedback on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought it would get easier to get through each day wondering what she's doing with who once we started talking again. Turns out to feel the other way around. Every contact I have with her makes me want to send this letter even sooner. I'm busting at the seams here to tell her all these things I've learned and see if she'd like to know more about it.

mineownself in the EN section there is an incredibly wise and experienced advisor. She's suggested not to make a statement of intent (sending a letter) because of all the flip flopping I did while we were splitting up... and because it will probably just be seen as a smokescreen.

What do you think? Should I communicate these things about me and my beliefs to her and see what she thinks?

Do more of what works <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



And less of what doesn't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Herb,

This letter is useless right now. When/if there comes a time after your Plan A that you decide to enter into Plan B...this kind of explaining will be part of your letter saying you have identified the areas where you failed, have addressed them, etc.

It is not the time now, nor will it be in a few weeks.

It won't work, it will be seen as a selfish attempt to get her back.

Unless it comes up in coversation, brought up by her it will not lead you closer to your goal of rewinning her, it will lead you away from it.

It will be seen as a love buster by her, because right now she wants to get away, she does not want to see you change, she does not want to talk about your changes...she simply wants to get away from you.

But that can and may change with time.

Be patient. She is talking to you more freqently, that is a VERY positive sign. Let her come to you more and more...do not sabotage yourself with relationship talk because that is what that letter is.

How do you get someone to change their mind?

Agree with them.


Or learn how to babble back like Orchid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think I understand what you're saying.

If she just wants to get away from me, though, why is she contacting me every day again? Yeah, sometimes its been about splitting things up that we have to talk about, but other times she's contacted me for reasons completely unnecessary.

I see what you're saying about that changing with time. I'm just deathly afraid that she will always want to stay away from coming back toward me if she believes that I simply cannot be the one for her since I wasn't the first time around. Do I have to wait until she's moving back toward me or just until she's not moving away from me? Again, I firmly believe that she will never move back toward me because of her beliefs that you just magically are the one for someone and will always be in love with them... and, if you try it and you don't just magically stay in love, they must not be the one.

I'd LOVE for it to come up in conversation brought up by her. I'd have to stop myself from unloading and dumping everything on her. Its hard to imagine a reason why she would bring that up, though, because she doesn't want to mess with my head any more than she has. Even if she thinks about it while we're talking, she probably would never say anything just for that reason alone. If I continue talking to her every day with her bringing it up being a near impossibility, I fear that I will be perpetually in limbo waiting for something that may never happen. At some point, I'll have to draw a line as far as how long to keep on this path. I have no idea how long that will be.

If something I'm doing differently now comes up in conversation... for example, she'd mentioned how her mom had been fairly mean to her lately because she wouldn't talk to her mom about us splitting up. I did some active listening and such to ask her if that bothered her much, etc. Then I mentioned that my mother and I had been butting heads as usual, but that things have gotten a lot better lately because of some things I'd realized about myself that I had learned from her and that it was pretty eye opening. She just said "yeah i bet", so I didn't go any further with it. My question is, should I use situations like that to talk about what I've learned or do I need to wait until she specifically asks about the concept of falling in love and staying in love? Again, imagining having a conversation that touches on anything anywhere near that subject doesn't seem likely... ever.

I'm going in circles here with things discussed already. I tend to do that when things boil down to a leap of faith, which is definitely what continuing to just be friends with her feels like when I think deep down that she will never let herself look into us getting back together as long as her perception of us is the old us. Changing me may not be enough as long as she believes we wouldn't stay in love.

You're right that it would come off as a selfish attempt to get her back. I'm sure it would. Were you saying that a letter would NEVER be accepted or that it will just take longer than a few weeks?

No, you won't know how long it will be until you are there. Some people set a time limit of two years, some a lot less, some more.

If you are actively working on your changes, on getting your life together than you won't be in limbo too much. You will be much too busy and happy for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



This was good in that you said something naturally in converstation that applied to the convo. She will not ask about the concept of "love" until she reaches an "epiphany" of her own. How long, when, if is anyones guess. You cannot teach her this, lecture this. Ask any BS on this board...it does not work. It is offensive to a WS.

Just keep doing what you are doing right now, working your plan and judging what is working and what is not, by her reactions and how frequently she calls you, how open she is.

Most WS's don't come back until Plan B, or until you have moved on.

But first you must do a great Plan A, so that is the memory they take with them and because this is what will bring them back if they so decide.

Not much other than that you can do at this point.

Just prove your love to her by being there to listen, by restating (when you get the chance and she brings it up)that you would like this marriage to succeed but will let her go if that is her desire.

Right now you are simply showing your love, not trying to convince, not being needy. Meeting any and all needs she lets you meet(but this will take time and she is more apt to let you meet her needs if she feels NO pressure from you.

Don't worry about her seeing your changes, again if they are sincere and real, she WILL see them.

This is Plan A.

Yaknow, what you said and I responded with made me think back to when she and I were still together but on the rocks. She asked me at the time that, if even we work on it and reconnect, what would be different that would keep us from bein right back out of love 2 months later again? At the time, I had absolutely no idea what was being done wrong. Counseling was tossed out here and there but before we could even decide on counseling, she was already talking to this new guy. A few days later I'd moved out when she refused to give up talking to him because she'd decided that she had no choice but to go out and see what else is out there and whether or not she'd rather be with me.

If, when she asked me that question, I knew then what I know now, I could say "This is exactly how we stay in love..." and show her all of these concepts. That's gonna be a huge regret for me if this doesn't work out. Wish I could rewind time... I had so many opportunities but I just didn't have any answers at the time.

Good stuff. Makes a lot of sense. The 2 year time limit thing nearly made my heart stop. As far as meeting her needs, I'm meeting what ENs she'll let me. She's also been asking me to help her with random things like the lawn mower not starting, software not working right on the computer, watching the dog for her, etc. Should I continue to do those things for her? I have absolutely no problem doing them. I enjoy doing them. The only reason I ask is because I don't want to seem as though I can be used to do things for her as a husband would while she dates other guys due to lack of interest in me. Not only do I not want to be used, I also don't want to be seen as a door mat... thats something I've never been and something that is not attractive, especially for her. Her profile even goes so far as to list "people with no heart backbone or balls" as one of the things she likes least in life.

People that know me in person know me as the guy who will be straight up with you, usually only when you ask him to. With my closest friends that I feel comfortable providing tough love with, I'm trusted as the one person who won't bs them and will tell them how I see it. Being that way probably is a cause and effect of my DJ habit. I was the same way when my wife and I met and I'm still the same way now. I don't know if it helped her fall in love with me or if she fell in love with me in spite of it. Being too brutally honest with her at times (I never insulted her or anything of the sort, but I would tell her when I felt like she was over-reacting to something, for example) probably was a LB, but may also have been a reason she fell in love with me in the first place. Somewhat ironic I suppose. Not sure why I felt like explaining this but I think it goes along with her dislike of guys with no backbone.

Her profile also lists people that like to ****** about things but never do anything about it as something she doesn't like. While she has a tendency to do this quite a bit herself, its oh so tempting to take her up on that offer, take charge "do something about this". But, obviously that won't work while she's moving away from me.

Probably not Herb as she was already in wayward mode, evidenced by her R with the guy she was talking to ALREADY.

Don't beat yourself up...it is counterproductive to your plan.

Just keep doing what you are doing... she is talking to you more frequently. Don't get greedy, needy or impatient.

Things take time.