Good stuff. Just be. I like that. Simple and to the point.

If she does ask for help on how to find herself and what makes her happy, does anyone have any links or books from professionals they could suggest? Obviously, one that includes not dating other people would make me feel much better.. hah. Links would be better as I'm not sure she'd actually read a self-help book... it'd feel awkward for her and she probably just wouldn't go through with it. Websites she will pour over though if they interest her. She loves reading, researching and lists... but reading a self-help book may make her feel uncomfortable similar to how most people shy away from counseling.

I realized today I'd never read the budget for Financial Needs on the website, so I took a look at it.

With her making 56k a year to my 30k a year, she obviously was providing some of the needs and all of the wants. Without having my income or my expenses, I saw a budget she'd listed out for herself at the house the other day in plain view on the kitchen table. It came out to about $2200 a month for necessities, not including gifts, savings, maintenance or emergencies... just the house payment, insurance, car payment and utilities. She brings in about $3000 a month, plus she'll now have her sister renting a room for $400/month, so she'll have about $1200/month to cover everything else (entertainment, gas, food, shopping, savings and random things that pop up). She's set financially...

Now, when we were together, I brought in roughly $1800/month. The added cost of me living with her was around $900 (car, added car insurance, added monthly healthcare premium, small student loan, added cell phone cost, etc. but not including food and gas). I always thought that since I was bringing in $900 more than I was using (less with gas, food, etc), that I was doing ok, especially considering that I was only a year out of college and simply couldn't get a better paying job with my experience.

But, looking at it from the perspective of the Financial Needs budget, if our costs together were $3100/month (my $900 and her $2200), obviously a lot of the "Needs" column was on her, plus all of the "Wants" column. When I attempted to budget out how much we'd been spending and where we could cut back, she simply told me "well why don't we make more money" and by "we" she meant me. She knew that there was no way for me to make any more than I was unless I took a part-time job, which I realize now I should have done, even though she would have resented me for not spending enough time with her. At the time, she had been guilting me for staying late at the office for my first job... didn't seem like a good idea to have her resent me for not being home so that she wouldn't resent me for not bringing in enough money, plus I thought that since we made so much, that we should easily be able to stay within a budget like all couples have to... but she refused to do that and that upset me.

We brought in almost $4800/month after taxes... I felt like that should have been enough for her, but we still managed to run out of money toward the end there by spending entirely too much. We saved plenty by paying extra in income taxes from each paycheck that we'd get back in the annual refund, but we didn't have that emergency fund accessible to dip into when we were low. That... is the biggest thing that made her unhappy with her marriage and, ultimately, unhappy with me.

Dr. Harley's page says that if Financial Security is one of the wife's top ENs (which my wife is definitely one of those wives), that the couple has to cut back their budget (which she refused to do) or the husband needs to make more money (through a raise or career change) than both of their total financial needs. Well, thats a lot easier said than done. How am I supposed to just make more money when I'm already maxed out for my experience level? Yes, I would get raises over time as my experience grew, but its completely time based and I have no control over that. If everyone could make a career change and suddenly make more money, everyone would... it just doesn't work like that in most situations. What do couples do when the husband just has no way of making more money or changing careers? I still don't know what I should have done when I was faced with that. Yes, I could have gotten a part time job making just above minimum wage, but then she'd resent me for never being home which is her second biggest EN.

Not sure why I posted all of this, but the bottom line is that our "needs" were $3100/month and I only made $1800 after taxes. Pretty easy to see why she felt like the burden was on her. I guess it doesn't matter now if this new career flipping houses takes off. If it doesn't, I have no idea what I'm going to do. I can make slightly more now in graphics, probably... maybe $35-40k a year now, but that still isn't going to cover the $3100/month in financial needs for both of us. At the time this all came up while we were still together, I had absolutely no way of dropping everything and changing careers. Now I do, but I'm deathly afraid something out of my control will blow it all up, leaving me with no way of making that $3100/month.

If I do make that $3100/month (meaning I'm going to have to make around $60k a year to do so, which 40k a year from graphics won't cover), I'll know how to show her on paper how I'm covering all her needs and her income just goes to cover "wants", which should make her happy. If it were that easy to choose your own destiny to make $60k a year, everyone would though. Her having such a high income from only 2 years of schooling is a reaaaaally hard obstacle to overcome because it makes her feel as though a lifestyle of $56k a year is what she deserves. She'd have that lifestyle even if I made less, obviously... but then she'd be meeting the "needs" and I'd be covering the "wants", which from what Dr. Harley says will leave her always feeling like her EN for financial security isn't being met by me. Really not sure what to do about this. I may not be able to make $60k a year from houses any time soon. It seems as though her requirement for a spouse is that they make $60k a year.... I feel like that's a pretty high expectation for a 22 year old woman. I actually thought about going back to school for the program she went through, but never did anything about it because we couldn't afford for me to drop everything and go to school full time or even afford to pay tuition part-time.

Any advice on what to do about this other than scramble to make $60k a year (not realistic)? If we ever get to the point of talking about each other's ENs, I suppose I could just ask her to go more in-depth about her need for financial security. I'd want to ask her:

"Do you feel like your EN for financial security would be met if your income paid for our "needs" and my income paid for our "wants"?

If the bills are being paid on time and I provide the "wants", if I'm busting my butt every day to make every dollar I can, would that satisfy your EN for financial security?

If you feel that your EN for financial security can only be met if I cover all our needs while your income provides our "wants", that would require me to make $60k a year. For me to do that, would you rather me meet your EN for financial security by working day and night, possibly with a part-time job... or would you rather me meet your ENs for conversation, recreational companionship, time for affection etc? Is your EN for financial security important enough that I should spend all of my time on that instead of meeting all of your other ENs?"

I really can't take this. I'm scaring myself...

Seeing my family for easter today i thought would help. its made it worse. i miss her so much. i can't take it. i dont know what to do. i feel like without her i have no hope of finding anyone else that would want me. my self esteem is gone. there's none left. i'm 24 and have lost so much weight that i'd be lucky to pass for 18. i looked a lot younger than my age to begin with. no one my age wants a guy that looks like they're just finishing high school. being a better guy mentally and knowing how to stay in love doesn't mean crap if i will never find someone who will want me physically. i'm decent looking.. i'm not ugly, but i'm not handsome either, mostly due to being so thin. i feel like if i could bulk up i'd be a lot more physically attractive, but i can't eat enough to make it happen. i've bought bars and shakes to eat between meals but i'm just not that hungry. while we were married i had to moderate my eating to stop myself from getting a gut, even though i was still thin. i started to gain it in the wrong places because i didn't work out. i physically can't eat as much as i used to. i feel stressed and nauseous and just can't force feed myself. the best i've been able to do is choke down a weight gainer shake once in a while. i don't see how to gain weight as long as i don't have a wife to validate my self-worth, but i know i have to gain weight to have any hope of her being attracted to me or any other woman being attracted to me. i feel like the only women i'd get now are hideously ugly or hideously overweight and they wouldn't really want me, i was just all they could get. the entire time i was with my wife, i never understood why a petite, extremely thin, perky woman with dark brown, almost black hair and piercing dark brown eyes would want me. i always felt so lucky that she wanted me. then we got married and we rarely had sex. it got to the point where i would have to trade her things to have sex. i'd do something for her if she'd have sex. i don't know if she had no sex drive whatsoever because she was unhappy or because she wasn't physically attracted to me. when we first started dating, i took her virginity. after that, she had the sex drive of a normal 18 year old like she was and that continued because we weren't able to see each other for almost a year except on the weekends, which is when we would jump all over each other from missing each other. once she moved in permanently with me, sex went from every day to slowly turning into once a week, if I was lucky, and even then was only if i bribed her.

i'm deathly afraid she was attracted to me when i met her because she was this young girl coming out of high school and i was this older college junior. all the things about me other than physical appearance may have been what made her fall in love with me. but eventually those other things that made her fall in love with me faded as I let them slide, leaving her with a guy she wasn't attracted to physically.

I feel like i have to have her and if i don't, that my life will be empty and lonely and i will die a lonely old man because i simply can't gain enough weight to look like i should. i feel like my only hope to be happy is with her. i can't take waiting. it means too much to me to be able to wait. how are you supposed to wait and see what happens and be patient for something that determines your existence? her decision determines whether i will be happy or lonely for the rest of my life. whether thats true or not, i don't care. thats how it feels and i don't have any reason to believe otherwise.

The word "obsessed" was used. thats exactly it. I'm obsessed and i feel i have every reason to be obsessed. I have to gain weight to even be remotely attractive to her. I can't use the older college guy thing to hook her like I did the first time. but i can't gain weight without her. if i can't gain weight, i won't get her back and if I can't get her back, I'm stuck dying alone or with someone who just settles for me because they can't get anyone more attractive.

and to top it all off, i hate myself for letting her slide away from me...how could i have been so incredibly stupid... how could i have thought that she'd stay with me if i was just doing enough to get by... what the ****** was i thinking... i deserve this

i can't even sleep to avoid feeling this pain. i just dream about her. i can't sleep all day because i have to get this new business going. i want to just slip into a coma and not be conscious for the next however long it takes her to make a decision.

These downer days would be a lot easier if I thought that I could find another woman as great as her or as good a match as we were or even a woman who's anywhere nearly as attractive as her... if we don't get back together.

Herb,

i know the desperation you feel, and i think everyone on this site has been in that place. You just want to do everything all at once, and you feel like you cant take another day of waiting. I felt the same way, each day i woke up and thought... how am i going to make it through this day? I cant be without him, i am nothing without him, and my brain did overtime in trying to think of the "if's" and "why's", and i just could not accept reality. Reality is now, the past is over and you cant bring it back. I know this sounds very harsh, and when someone first told me that, i cried. And i mourned the past, as i knew that person was right. The whole time i was trying to hold on to the past because i missed that past, and my present made me feel so unhappy and lonely. Lots of times i thought about just getting a divorce, getting it over with, cause i thought i couldnt take it anymore. Or trying to find someone else, but who was i kidding? This is not what i wanted, i wanted to save my marriage. And the fact is, my Husband does not want to work on the marriage at this point. Maybe someday in the future this will be different, i dont know. Just like he had no way of knowing that i would come back. No matter what you do... you WILL NOT be able to persuade her to come back. Only she can do that.

First and foremost you have to decide for yourself, what is it you really want. Do you want the pain to end, no matter what? Or do you want your wife back? Once you have made this decision for good, you will know you that you have all the time in the world. You are your worst enemy right now, your fear, your impatience. You have to realize, you have no control over what she does. You only have control over what you do, and you make the decision for yourself. As she makes her decision for herself. She has to find herself, she has to find out what makes her happy, and only she can do that. She has no clue what it is that she is looking for. And if she doesnt even know that, how would you be able to help her in that? This is how i felt back then, and i guessing she feels kind of the same way. She has to walk that path alone, and even if there is someone else in her life at one point, there is nothing you can do to change that. But it is up to you, if you want to stick around and wait to see what happens when she reaches the end of her road.
It is very hard, it is the hardest thing that i ever had to face, and it took me about a year to finally come somewhat to peace with myself, that i DO want this marriage, that i Do want this man, that i will wait for him to find himself and decide for himself what makes him happy. And i also know that if i wouldnt have travelled that road i wouldnt be the person that i am today. I dont know if my husband ever comes back, and you dont know if your wife ever comes back, there are no guarantees. But its up to you whether you stick around or give up.

I know you want the pain to end, its a horrible experience, and back then when i felt this way, i just wanted to run. But would that have solved my problem? No. I am just coming around myself, and i find myself in pain at times still. But i do know what i want in the long-run. And i have decided not to give up, no matter what. I will not push divorce, i will not try to find someone else, because this is not what i want.

I had to learn to try to be happy with myself, i know its seems like the most unlogical thing to you right now. And for a long time i wasnt ready for that either. Keep reading this website, it helped me a great deal. You can be strong again too, and you have been doing way better so far than i did in the beginning. Dont let big numbers like 3 or 6 months scare you, it will get easier in time. Your feelings and your fears wont be as raw anymore and things will get easier to deal with.

You asked me what it could be that she would need to experience to teach her what makes her happy? I cant tell you that, i am not her, all i can say is, for me it was time, and it took me a year and a half to realize what i was looking for, was what i had thrown away. Please dont get scared by this year and a half. Noone is the same, it doesnt mean it has to take that long with her. But she will only see in time what she wants. And she doesnt even know what it is she is looking for, she will know when she finds it, and noone can say how long it will take, or what the outcome will be. I am sorry i cannot give you the solution to her problem. If i could, i could give it to my husband as well. Time is on your side, your fear and lonliness are what the things that are against you. If you can overcome those things, then you will feel better about yourself and will be able to deal with the situation better.

I hope i have been a little help

Good grief Daggi - why have you not been posting on MY thread??? I feel like I am hearing two different Daggi's.

Good for you. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

It's probably too soon in your ordeal to even broach this subject, but I am going to do it anyway as I think your personal recovery is going to have to happen before your marital recovery.

We are taught as Christians to " first seek the kingdom of God, and all the glories on earth will follow"...and also that we must first love God above all else.

Now if you are not a Christian it matters not, as metaphorically the principles of obtaining happiness are the same.

Metaphorically it would mean that first we must love ourselves, as love increases and extends... first within us and then from within us to outside of us.

Your wife is not the only who must find herself and her happiness first Herb...you must also, otherwise you are not going to be good for anyone, at least not for long.

2long says "just be" and I do agree very much with this, but I know that you are in a place where you feel you simply can not go on without her unless someone else who is "just as good" comes along.

Bullcrap...you have gifts to offer on this earth, and you have a life to live with or without her...and when you get to this place of realization...then you will know that you are going to be okay...with or without her.

As in all things, it takes time.

Hang in there Herb, we are all here for you if necessary.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Saturday night was when we had our long talk. After that, she came back a few minutes later and started talking to me again about random stuff, telling me to check out the new pictures she'd posted, etc. Then she went out with her friend and "some guys they knew".

All day yesterday and so far today, she hasn't said a word to me on AIM, even though she's been on at the same time I have several times.

I'm not sure what to think. Last we talked, she was excited to talk to me and such. Telling her I haven't been interested in dating may have sunk in and made her feel guilty or something. Or, she may have thought more about what was said and doesn't want to talk to me to give me false hope... I have no idea. I did find out that that address I saw was the new apartment address of the guy she had been talking to when I left. He posted his own address on facebook. He's either really ballsy or really stupid... a lot of guys wouldn't be able to control their rage like I did and knowing where he lives would make it that much easier. The address was on a piece of paper on the ground which would make me think she didn't actually use it, but our bank account shows a transaction at a drug store right around the corner from that address several nights ago. Does any of this matter? Does it change anything or what I have to do? No, but it still rips my heart out.

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and go see my physician about some anti-depressants for this stress I'm under. I've never taken anything like that and I'm not sure how it will go. I'll have to ask my wife to make sure there isn't a deductible and that it'll just cost the copay. Maybe it'll give me a slight boost to get my appetite back and get active again.

To be honest, I'd really rather her not find out right now that I'm going to the doc for anti-depressants. Is that dishonest? Probably is.. yeah. She'd probably find out anyway when the healthcare bill was sent to the house, so I'll have to be honest whether I like it or not. I'm just concerned about what it may make her think that I'm so stressed out about all of this. I don't want it to put pressure on her or drive her away from me. However, if my options are to stay underweight, stressed and not have her know I'm on anti-depressants... versus let her know and gain the weight back I feel that I need to be self confident and therefore attractive to her... I'll just have to take the risk that it will put pressure on her.

Another question...

she asked me to send her the website "in a couple of days" when we had our long talk. Its been a couple of days since then and she hasn't said anything to me since she went out that night.

Think I should send it to her or would that be the same as bringing up relationship talk without her asking to? She may not want to see it now.

I am very glad you are going to get on A/D's, as they should help with the obsession...many on here have used them when dealing with a marital breakup. Lexapro helped me and some friends of mine on here with anxiety.

Are you talking about the E/N worksheet when you say send her the website?

I had told her that there was an entire website explaining exactly how to fall in love again and stay in love, with a 90%+ success rate. She said send it to me in a couple days.

I had planned on sending her a link to the Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts page...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

And also a link to the EN questionnaire if she wants to use it to help her learn what does and doesn't make her happy.

Again, she asked that I send this a couple of days ago, but has made absolutely no contact with me since then. I'm not sure if she's feeling guilty, just feels awkward talking to me now, has seen that guy or another guy since then and is distracted by him... I have no idea. I don't know whether sending her this is a good idea right now since she hasn't contacted me since then at all. I think I may wait until she contacts me and we have a regular non-relationship conversation... but, then again, if we go that direction and suddenly I send her this website saying here's what you asked for, it may pressure her or run her off again even if she asked for it before.

I've been thinking ahead of what to say in the email when (if) I send the website link to her.

>>>

"Hey! Hope your day is going well. Here is the link to the website you asked me to send you a few days ago.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

The link is to the basic concepts that the rest of the site expands on for how love works, falling in love again and staying in love even if all feelings of being in love have been completely wiped out. There are lots of pages digging deeper into each concept. One in particular you might like is the Questionnaire page, specifically the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. It's designed to help a spouse figure out what makes them happy. The main page about Dr. Harley (the guy who founded all of this) says he has a 90%+ success rate. From what I've learned, these basic concepts are something every person must follow in a relationship to stay in love, regardless of if they've found these concepts or not. Usually they are naturally followed during dating and engagement, but people tend to drift away from what works over time, which leaves a couple feeling entirely out of love. Some couples just chalk it up to not working out and walk away. Some are lucky enough to find this site and use the concepts to salvage their marriage, no matter how far apart they've gotten. It seems too good to be true, but the success rate alone, plus how much sense everything makes.. makes me feel as though this could very well be the answer we were looking for. I feel like I would regret it for the rest of my life if I had found the answers but passed on them because it seemed too good to be true. I feel as though having someone show me how to go about staying in love the right way the first time is more attractive than stumbling through it to learn on my own and possibly failing again because I refuse to accept help.

I feel that, if the time comes that you feel you are ready, we could use this to salvage our marriage, get back to where we were at the point of being madly in love and stay that way for the rest of our lives. I feel that what I want and need is what I had... that feeling of being madly in love. I'd like nothing more than to use these concepts to get back what we had and walk through that door at the next family gathering unable to peel ourselves away from each other, with both of our families cheering for us and excited to see the two peas in a pod back together for good. I feel that if we can make it through this, we can make it through anything.

If you find that what you want and need is what you had with me while we were two peas in a pod, madly in love, I am willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen. I will not be dating while I still feel that we are compatible, married and can salvage our marriage.

This is all simply how I feel. I don't know what's best for you. YOU know best what is best for you. I can only make myself better so that I have more to offer the next time around. Regardless of your decision, I believe you will see changes in me for the better. I feel that those changes in me plus these concepts completely change what we would be like together. If we were to work things out, I believe how we had become would never be again. I believe it would only be feelings of being in love that we felt before we fell away from these concepts while we were married.

If in the future you decide what you want is what you had, I will be here. Regardless of your decision, I will always be here for you and always want to be your friend.

Sincerely,

***********

>>>>

Probably too long and probably too much "educating" but its more providing information that is entirely up to her whether she looks into or not.

Well I think if you are not sure about something, don't do it.

I think you are right not to send it right now, to tell you the truth.

Sorry, I took too long editing my post there to add the possible email.

I guess you're right about not sending it to her. Its just so incredibly tempting. I REALLY want to share these concepts with her for both our sakes. I REALLY want to share with her the idea that what she wants and needs COULD be what she had... and that what she had is readily available to her. I want her to think about that possibility whenever she's hating the dating scene. I want it to be SO incredibly tempting to her.

She has to learn these things for herself and decide for herself what she wants... but I would like to propose the idea to her that what she finds out she wants may be what she had.

Herb-
You and I are in similar situations. My has just going on longer than you.

Let me tell you the VERY little I have learned so far..

These principles work alot of the times. I was an absolute mess and barely functioned for the first 3 months my W was gone. I did all the usual things, sent a "sorry" e-mail, called her and begged, worried about her every minute. When I discoved the OM, I threatned her with adultry, even threatened to drag him into court. He was still married to someone else too.

Then I found this site. I read for hours and hours. I listened to the stories others told. It was then that I decieced to start the process.

I started employing the concepts here right away. Nothing changed for almost 2 months. Only recently have I seen any turn in events. And they are really small.

But, I take comfort in the fact that she is no longer running away, but rather stopped running all together. It took a long time and alot of patience for this to occur. Now, hopefully, she will start to turn in my direction.

There are alot of great people on this board who really want to help. Kisten to them. Know that you are no alone. You will have good days and bad days (I still have them), but, in time, the bad days will become shorter and shorter.

Stay focused. Don't give in. Remember, anything worth anything in this world has to be fought for. You business isn't going to just start taking off all by itself. You have to want it and fight to make it happen.

Neither will your marriage just fix itself. You have to fight for it. And keep fighting until you feel you can't anymore. Then fight more.

She will notice the changes. She is watching you very closley right now. Just keep along the path and DO NOT STRAY.

Somedays you will notice that she is noticing. Other days she will seem like she has slipped backwards and could care less. Just keep along the path. She will see.

As for the link, my (limited) advice is let her ask for it. Don;t send it and don;t mention it. If she wants it she can ask you about it. If she does ask, then you know she is really interested and she didn't ask you for it because she felt guilty.

If she asks why you haven;t sent it, just baffle her with a little about why you didn;t send it. And then send it right away. But, I would drop the whole letter that you have with it. Just send her a IM that says something like, "Here it is, ----------. Hope you are having a great day!" Or something like that ...

It wasn't until I completly stopped chasing my W that I discovered that anything would change. Humans naturally run from things we don't think we want. But, we also will get closer to things that interest us. She can't come to you while you are chasing her. You have to allow her to stop running from you and start making her run towards you.

Last thing I have learned so far. This is going to be a rollarcoaster ride from HE!! for you. Prepare for it. Have a good friend or relative that you can call, no matter what time and vent to. One that you know will support your position and help you stay focused. Thankfully, I have several.

When you get overwhelmed, call them. Find something to do. Come here and read. Run around the block 5 times. Scream. Do what ever you can (legeally) to release your feelings. But DON'T, I mean DON'T call her, DON'T e-mail her, DON't do anything at all when you feel this way. It will only cause you to backslide.

Its hard, I know. My emotions strike sometimes out of nowhere. And sometimes they can stop me right in my tracks and bring me to my knees. Have faith that the feeling will pass. You will stand back up. But, with each drop and each recovery, you become just a little bit stronger, a little bit wiser, and you don't drop quite as far.

I know because I am living proof. 6 months ago my life was the worst it had ever been. Only now is it starting to shift becuase I am gaining control.

I work on me everyday.

Great stuff, very encouraging. Thank you for taking the time to post.

I'm going to take your advice and let her bring it up if she wants to. I have an appointment scheduled for tomorrow at 8am to see my doc about some ADPs in the mean time. I have no idea how that will affect me.

I'm very glad that she and I talked and made progress in that she has a reason to think things could be different if we got back together and that it may not just have been bad luck. She seemed genuinely interested in what I'd found. Unfortunately, from how she suddenly stopped contacting me the past couple of days, it may have run her off. I'm not sure. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but who knows.

I'll try to keep in mind all of the suggestions here. Thanks again.

You are quite welcome --

She is going to withdrawl every now and then. Just let her. She will be turn-around again.

You see, they need a reason to jusitfy how they feel. what happens is, they discover every once in while that they are moving back towards you. That tends to scare the crap out of the WS. So, in turn, they have to do something to reaffirm how they feel.

They might try and pick a fight over sometime really small. My W has done this a couple of times. I don't engage with her, tell her I agree with how she feels (no matter how rediclious I think it is) and change my behavior.

She can't fight with someone who won't engage. I won't give her a reason to stay mad. I remove all LB's with her and only stay pleasent with her. How can she reaffirm she made the right choice when I give her no reason to make her think she did. I remove all reasons to dislike US.

But, that doesn't mean let her walk all over you too. Set up a few boundries and enforce them. Nicely. Be firm with the lines. Just don't engage.

Remember, she is just re-affirming why she left and guarding her emotions and her heart.

Don't call or e-mail her. Let her come to you a little. Stay upbeat, positive and strong. They will notice.

Two more suggestions I have that isn't talked about here alot is to make a change in your life with some things. Do sometime that you wouldn't normally do. Anything.

Shave your head, take up a sport, change the way you dress. Grow a beard. The list is endless. Just do something that you wouldn't normally do. And don't tell her you have done it. Let her discover it. It took my W four times seeing her before she brought up a VERY obvious chnge I had done. I just ignored it when she didn't bring it up. When she finally did, I acted like I did it so long ago I almost forgot that I did it.

She never asked why I did it and I didn't offer a explaination. Think it got her wondering though.

If she doesn't say anything, don't bring it up. If she asks, just casuasully blow it off as something you have always wanted to do or try. And then drop it.

She will notice. She might not always tell you she has, but she will.

Then, after a few weeks, do something else. Keep it going.

Second, react to something completly opposite to how she would expect you to. I don't mean get angry when you would normally be ok, I mean, change your reaction to something.

If she says, "There is no way this can work". Agree, with a smile and tell her she is right. Then drop it.

If you call her everyday at 10am, suddenly stop. After a couple days, she will ask why you haven't calling her. Tell her that you just didn't want to bother her, you have been busy at work, etc...

The point is change your reaction to things so much that it makes them wonder what is going on. It make then interested in what prompted the change. It makes them interested in YOU.

But, let her bring up the change and then acknowledge the change, give a short, "surface" answer and move the conversation to something else.

It creates mystery, it makes them wonder and it sends a message about you. That you are getting stronger, that you are ok, and that your life will go on.

Remember, women want men to be strong. A begging, crying fool does not appeal to them. It makes them run away faster. They want someone who can stand-up, dust off, and keep going, despite what has happened.

Be strong. Be confident. Be in a "up" mood. Be YOU.

Save the crying until you get in the car. Save the hurt until you get home. Don't let her see it. Don't even hint when you see her that everything is NOT ok with you.

It sounds counter-productive, I know. But, she already knows how you feel and what you want. Now, let her figure out what she wants and how she can get it. Let her stop running from you and discover a little of what its like without you.

She will notice.

She will eventually ask.

She will open the door a little to see whats happening.

Its only then will your patience really be put to the test..


Hope this helps...

Hang on, you are about to get the ride of your life...

But, you might end up with a marriage you never knew could be so good.......

Excellent post Stilllovingher.

BTW -

Don'r be concerned about her dating other men. The chances of someone "sweeping" her off of her feet and riding off into the sunset is very slim.

The chances of it lasting are very slim too. Let it be.

Even if she does start to "see" someone else, there is nothing you can do about it. Use it to your advantage.

She might see how terrible it is out in the dating world. She might see just how great you are. She might see YOU are the one for her. But, if she has to get it out of her system, let her. If she doesn't and comes back still wondering, it will only cause problems later on.

If you discover him, don't mention him. don't mention the relationship. Don't even let on you know.

DO NOT CONTACT HIM. DO NOT CALL HIM, E-MAIL HIM, OR OTHERWISE CONTACT HIM. You will only pull them closer.

It will be hard, I know. It was very painful for me. still is sometimes. But, I think the relationship has fizzled so I am not that concerned about it.

You see, I have sometime 10 times more powerful than the OM has. I have history.

Neither her or I can change that. We had some really good times in this marriage and not all of it was bad. That alone keeps me ahead of him. As hard as it may seem to see, its true.

I use that to my advantage. Not by talking about all the good times, but, by doing things for her that only someone who REALLY know her (like I do) would do. I say little things to her that came from us and our marriage.

I don;t push, but if I get the chance, I make her laugh a little by quoting little saying we have, or something similar.

Let the OM try that..Doesn't work !

Just like Jim Carrey in LIAR,LIAR. Remember "The Claw"? The OM never could do it like her husband. And thats one of the main things she began to focus on when she was thinking about saving her marriage.

Resign yourself that you can't change anything she is going to do. You can only react to what she does.

She won't think you don't care. She won't think you don't love her because you don't talk about it.

Just the opposite happens. You send a message that you might not agree, but you respect her feelings.

And that my friend, SENDS A CLEAR MESSAGE of love ....

Interesting. I think her way of withdrawing is to pursue the guy she originally started talking to that made me leave. She's yet to pick a fight since I stopped flip flopping, trying to talk her out of it, etc. When we were discussing how to split up some things (around the time I was doing everything wrong), every now and then she would get a little confrontational about little things like making sure she gets her employer's discount on her new cell account instead of mine. Since then it has completely stopped. She was moving toward being friends again but nothing past that... I believe it was because she felt we had no impact on splitting up, that it was just bad luck and there was nothing we could do. Now that we've had our talk and gotten it all out on the table, she has reason to think differently... to think that moving toward me past friends may actually have a future.. and I can see how that would scare her. Her being scared, I think, means pushing even harder to "experience" someone else to see what its like. I haven't been checking up on her, spying, snooping or anything of the sort. However, when I checked our joint bank account to make sure my deposit had gone in to make my truck payment, I saw there were several charges from the area where the guy she'd been talking to has recently moved... gas, ATM, and pharmacy... she could very well have bought condoms and that.. makes me want to kill that guy. I have no idea what else she would be buying at the closest pharmacy to his apartment. Obviously this rips my heart out. Doesn't change anything.. I know she's going to be doing this, but it still hurts and I still can't get my mind off of it.

I'm sure she's noticed that I haven't been contacting her and that I've been letting her contact me. That may make her wonder... or it may make her think I'm playing games. I don't know.

I see what you're saying about creating mystery. Figuring out what to do will be the hard part. Shaving my head or growing a beard probably wouldn't be extremely attractive to her... I don't think a shaved head is a good look for me and she hates beards. Picking up a sport is something new, but she'd never have any way of knowing I'd changed that. She does know that I've started going to the gym again. She also knows that I've been going tanning, which is something I hadn't done before. I'll have to figure out something radically different I can change that she would notice.. that also doesn't cost a lot until my income is stable.. hah. I've also been burying myself in working constantly to get this house flipping business off the ground (when I'm not on these message boards, hah). This is definitely a big change. I worked from home a couple days out of the week while we were together and she took that as me being lazy. Although, I still don't have an office to go into every day so it may still be something that's making me unattractive to her. There's no way for her to see that I am getting up every morning and busting my butt day and night to find the first house to purchase.

So far I've been able to pull off the confident, upbeat appearance. I think I'll be able to in the future. You suggested letting her see a little of what it's like without you. I'm not sure if its just her trying to be tough, but when I was being stupid and telling her I wasn't going to be able to talk to her anymore if we're only going to be friends, she seemed not to care... she'd just say "ok, you let me know." and thats about it.

It still kills me because I constantly am thinking of what she's doing with that guy. The only solace is that he's 19, a big drinker, does mid level drugs like ecstasy, is barely making it through school, is a chronic depressive, moody and just all around a loser. I learned all of this when I was being stupid and spying on her computer use. She's physically attracted to him and, especially since I took her virginity, she's anxious to see what its like with someone else now that she feels like its ok to do so. She really has no remorse for doing so whatsoever. She feels justified because we've split and she's told me we're free to date other people. Her doing this obviously makes me feel like, if she's going after this guy still, she's obviously not interested in me, which hurts as well. Or maybe she is interested in me and she's just doing whatever makes her happy for the time being. Seems pretty counterproductive to me but she thinks she has to "force" herself to do these things so she knows what she wants.

So, when she opens the door a little to see whats happening with me... do I shrug it off and change the subject? Do I not give her any answers she wants? When she contacts me (if she does, I guess), do I still keep it friendly and show her that I'm enjoying talking to her? Or am I supposed to come off indifferent? Kind of confused here. I know that I need to meet her ENs any time she lets me, which would be limited to conversation and admiration right now.

A big thing is physical appearance, which I'm going to the doc for ADPs tomorrow to try and get help with that.

Hrmm, now I need to figure out what else I can do radically different that she would notice....

Hah. Everything I can think of requires some cashola. While we were together there were a few things I always wanted to do but couldn't because of her.

1) Become a pilot... had talked to an air force recruiter less than a week before I met her, then she blew that whole idea out of the water. Once I get some cash comin in, I may start workin on my private pilot's license.
2) Learn to play the drums. Never could cuz we didn't have space for drums and she didn't want to hear it. Once I get some cash, I may start taking lessons and buy a drum set once I have a place to put one.
3) Buy a motorcycle. She threatened to leave me if I got one. Again, takes cash.
4) Pick up playin tennis again. I miss playin. Used to play back in high school, but I was always too tired or couldn't peel away from her without her resenting me for leaving her at home. She refused to play with me. This may not take much money, just enough for a new racquet... but she also won't know that I'm playing nor will she care
5) Golf. I miss golf, although I'm horrible at it. Again, takes money.
6) Working out like I used to. Already doin this, but I can only go 2-3 times a week otherwise I will work off the all the calories I take in.
7) Buzz my head. I may do this just for kicks. I have no idea how I'll look. It may not be very attractive to her either, but it'll grow back in a week if I don't like it, plus its cheap.
8) Higher stakes poker. I play local games and such but the entry fees are pretty low. Couldn't afford anything higher. If I get some cash together, I may start going to the closest casinos which are the riverboats and play some higher stakes. She used to tell me that she thought I was dead sexy when I was playing poker because I looked so in control of myself and the table.
Still thinkin... somethin cheap but noticeable... hrmmm.

As for changes, they aren't nessesarly about her noticing. Like I said before, don't worry if she doesn't say anything. She will notice.

The point of doing this is to change you, first. If you do something only to get her attention, she will see that its a ploy and she will reject it. Do it for you. Change things about and for you.

And who cares if she likes the change or not? Again, it isn't about her. It is about you. One of the things I did was the very thing she had forbid me from doing our entire marriage. I always wanted to do it and when I brought up the subject to her, she always said, NO !

Well, she isn't here anymore and I don't need or have to ask her permission to change something in MY life. I just do it now. And let me tell you, sometimes it feels great!


I also rearranged all the furniture in our home and removed all the pictures of us. Why? Because when she is here, she will see that I am decorating the house MY WAY! And I don't care if she likes it or not because this isn't her house anymore.

Sound cold? Maybe. But, I am not nasty about it. I don't point out the changes. I let her notice. And if she asks about it I usually say something like, "well, I thought it looked good that way".

And let me tell you, she notices every little change I make to what was HER HOUSE. She doesn't always mention it, but I know she sees it.

The message is, you want to move on? Ok. So will I. And that means that somethings here in the home are going to change too.

I can't have pictures of us up when I have other women over now, can I ?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


You seem to be on the right path now and beginnig to understand what is going on. You are already starting to see a change as a result of your actions.

The important thing now is to keep going and don't think that you can stop now. Don't get too excited and don't overwhelmed. You still have a long way to go.

Just becuase she sees a change today doesn't mean she is going to see a change tommorrow. She is going to fight you on this for a while so be prepared. Don't give in and let your guard down. This process can take months.

As for the OM, just take a good look at what you are competing with. Is he really a match for you? For what you have said, I don't think so. I think you have him whipped in every corner.

She, like my wife, chose someone less than you. Speaks volumes of you doesn't it? I mean, she is dating someone who does drugs? And your worried she might stay with him? PLEASE ! She will grow tired of that very soon.

I almost think that our WW's pick these types on purpose. This way they can experience the "feel" of a boyfriend, fling, being single, etc. without ever having any "real" compitition up against us. They know, deep down inside that the OM can't compete, so, they get involved with someone that they know it won't last with.

Let it burn itself out. It will. Remember, she chosse to MARRY you. Not him. You still have alot more to offer and alot more going for you than he does!!

I know the thought of your w sleeping with another man can be down right crazy. It can make you think all sorts of nasty thoughts. DON'T GIVE INTO THESE THOUGHTS !! DON'T -- DON'T -- DON'T.

These thoughts will drive you crazy and you don't even know if its true or not.

I found out everything you can imangine about the OM. His address, his Wife's name, every piece of property he owns, everything. I was a mad-man for weeks! He!!, I even found his SS # .

And you know what I did with it? NOTHING ! Thats right, NOTHING ! If felt good for a while doing all the snooping, but after a while it became obsessive. I was driving myself off a cliff! It does no good whatsoever and only was making me crazy.

I finally understood that I had to surrender to it. Not like it, but understand that there was nothing I could do to stop it. I can only control me. But, think of the message I was sending when I stopped even acknowleding that he even existed! My attitdude was, Whatever !!!

Rmemeber, if it is true, you can still love her, still stay married to her and still forgive her. Its not the end.

You can get over it and you will put it behind you.

Last, when she opens the door, act like you don't notice. Don't even let her know that you see her looking.

Why ignore her? Because, like all people, she will look for a while. If she likes what she sees, she is going to see if you notice her looking. If you are, she is going to slam it shut just like a little child.

But, what happens if you ignore a child? They start to do things to get your attention. They try to get you to look in thier direction.

And.....They have to open the door wider to accomplish this.

So, when you see a little light through the edge, hear the door creaking slightly open, ignore it. Just make a mental note that it happening and thats it. Know that you are on the right path and doing the right things.

Make her make some noise. Make her open the door more to get your attention. Only then can you turn and look.

And you will know the time is right because she will tell you. Woman are not stupid. They will go after what they want just as hard as men will. Only woman do it like cats. Silently, calmly, catiously.

Men are like dogs (UGHH). Be barge in and grab what we want. We make noise the whole time and loudly profess ourselves.

Let her sneak up on you. Make her brighten the light. If she wants it, she will do it. Women will act when they want.

And yes, stay friendly with her. But, don't ask her anything about what she is doing or where and with whom she has been with.

Keep all conversations short, and friendly. Smile when you see her. Give her lots of eye contact when she speaks (Women love that). Think of how beautiful she is when you are talking to her and let you face show it. She will pick-up on it. She knows you well enough to know when you think things like that.

You see, what you are trying to get across is simple. I love you, I want us to be together, I think we can be together, but, I might not agree with your decesion, but, I RESPECT IT. AND ... My life will go on without you. And ... I can be happy without you.

And weird as it sounds, she will NOT think you don't care anymore. Nope, she will think exactly the opposite. Because you still are friendly, you still help when you can, you still fill her EN's when you get the chance.

But, what you won't do is let this completly destroy you. You won't let this consume you.

You are showing her that you can stand up, dust yourself off, and keep on going, dispite what she thinks of you.

That alone, will make her look alot deeper into herself then sending her flowers everyday.

Read my signature. I got it from a earlier poster who used a similar sentence to describe his sitch.

Be patient, be loving, be respectful, but above all, be all those things to YOU first.

She will notice. And she might just change her mind later on about this marriage.