I think your posts have been by far the most impactful on me in quite a while. It makes a lot of sense and.. with my analytical mind... logic calms me. Getting specific advice from someone in the middle of the same basic situation is invaluable. Thank you for taking the time to post.

I believe I understand the majority of what you have suggested. First, as far as making changes, each of these things are things I've wanted to do before so I feel like I'm doing them to make me happy and, if it creates a little mystery in her mind, thats a bonus. If I were doing something I have no interest in, then yeah, I'd be doing it just to get a reaction out of her.

One area still confuses me a bit. You suggested to keep conversations friendly but short. If I cut off our conversations quickly, it seems as though that means I won't be using every opportunity I could get to meet her ENs and improve her perception of me and being with me. I seem to be getting opposing suggestions... perhaps its something in the middle? Meet her needs but make sure I'm the one ending the conversations in a reasonable length of time as not to appear needy or desparate.

When you say she opens the door (that I should ignore until she makes a lot of noise to make it clear she wants me back), do you mean things like asking me to come over? I can't imagine ignoring that. If thats not what you're referring to, what exactly do you mean by opening the door to peek?

I see what you are saying by projecting the image that I will be ok without her and don't have to have her. This seems a little bit like playing headgames because, at this point, I know in my head that I will be ok without her, but I'm still desparate to get her back. I'm half way there but not quite there yet. I understand what you're saying about women wanting a man who is strong and can handle anything. Thats part of why I'd rather her not find out about talking to a doc about ADPs.

The more questions I ask, the more pop up in my head. You mentioned sending the message that if she's moving on, so will I. Thats exactly what I was told not to do by some others here. I was supposed to let her know that I have no interest in dating (and "moving on" as an extension of that). It was suggested that I make it known that I'm willing to wait as long as is necessary and not date others because I have no interest in it and still feel like we could work it out... that I am a rock that is unshakeable with my faith in our marriage. Perhaps I misunderstood what others were suggesting. Making it seem as though I'm ok moving on seems like it would have a positive effect in that she'd A) see me as strong and able to dust myself off and B) women tend to want what they can't have.

So, who do I listen to here?

I hear you about doing things I couldn't do because of her. ******, even today I got a decent laugh when I realized that I could get dinner for half as much now. Hah.

There's still the issue that she hasn't contacted me a single time since she went out Saturday night after our talk. The more time passes, the more I think she's diving into a relationship with this other guy and that it is distracting her from me and/or making her feel too guilty to talk to me knowing I'm not interested in dating anyone else. I hope that, as you say, she will come around and want to talk again. Before we had our talk, she had been contacting me every day more and more. The talk was necessary to establish that I think we could work this out, that I still want to work it out and that its possible we didn't split up just because of bad luck of it not working out. I can't do anything about her not contacting me either way. She'll have to contact me one way or another eventually about splitting stuff up again or the joint account or whatever's necessary... I just sincerely hope it goes back to how it was before our talk. She may simply feel pressured talking to me now knowing that I want to work it out, where as, before the talk, she thought that I was moving on. I did tell her at the end of the talk that, regardless of what she decides, I respect her decision and will be ok either way... but that may not have been enough to remove the pressure from her.

I'll try my best not to think about what she's doing or about this other guy. It'll burn out eventually, but she's the type that is always desparate to be in a relationship and could sustain it with him for quite a while even if there's no future. If she has no real reason to call it off, she won't. He'd have to really hurt her or scare her. The fact that he has no job, his parents pay for his apartment, his tuition, his everything and makes no attempt at working means nothing to her. She makes plenty and she likes him, not his financial situation. Its possible that he's the only half decent looking guy willing to "pursue" her... and it may not even be that.. it may be that he's just using her or tolerating her to get laid. Or... she may be using him to get her sexual needs met and nothing more, with him getting the same from her. That... really hurts, if thats what she's doing. That makes me think quite a bit less of her, if thats what she's doing. I don't know what to do with the thoughts that idea puts in my head. For lack of a better term, if she's allowed herself to indulge in having a **** buddy, she's definitely not the same girl I fell in love with and married. Like I said, when I met her, she was a virgin at the age of 18. She had plenty of opportunities before then and she had her fill of everything but sex before I met her, but she'd saved going all the way for me. It only took her a few weeks to fall in love with me and feel like I was the right guy. Meh, thinking about her being so incredibly different with her body just makes me physically sick. I have to think about it because I have to decide if its something I can get over if she decided she wanted to work things out.

Sure, I have typical fantasies in my mind of some no strings attached sex, but I don't think I could do it without getting attached to whoever it was. I can't say that I wouldn't do it in the future if she and I were completely over with and divorced. I don't know that her being married is why I have a problem with it, or if I just have a problem with it because it hurts me. Either way, this guy getting involved with a married woman, regardless of if she's separated or not, and especially flirting with a married woman he knows is having marriage problems, needs his freaking head beaten in. If I was just a hair crazier, my irish temper would have gotten the best of me, he may have ended up in a morgue and I may have ended up on death row. I still don't know how I stopped myself from putting a gun to his head and watching him cry like a little girl, begging for his life. I guess the fact that I didn't do it is what distinguishes me from the actual crazy people.

Then again, my financial situation is pretty piss poor right now myself so I don't have much room to talk, but at least I'm working for my income, have a plan I'm working and am making progress on a daily basis, and am extremely likely to make a good living from it...even if she can't see that.


Great stuff. This is my new motto.

You mentioned in a previous post that your wife is no longer running from you. Is she now opening the door to see whats going on with you now? Is she showing any interest? While making progress in her not running away from you is encouraging, if these things you've suggested actually work to get her coming back to you, that would be a huge encouragement to me. Please keep me updated if at all possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Doc put me on the generic version of I believe it was called Remeron. Some sort of seratonin inhibitor ADP that tends to increase appetite and help you sleep. Said it'll probably take a week or two before I feel any effects of the ADP side of it.

Daily vent in progress...

The doc reassured me that everything I'm going through is normal, blah blah. Doesn't make it any easier. She still hasn't said a word to me since we talked which has made me miss her more. I'm not going to have much of a chance of her noticing anything new about me if we don't talk or ever see each other. I've decided to stop leaving my screen name online with an away message up. I think maybe that gives her a sense of always being able to get ahold of me or know what I'm up to.. some sense of knowing what I'm up to without having to ask me or talk to me. She probably feels like she doesn't really care what I'm doing or at least thats what she's telling herself. Who knows. She may not miss me at all and she may just drift off and never come back. I don't know. Its hard not to move on when she obviously is. Is she worth it? No question. Do I want to move on? Not at all. Do I feel like it'd be easier if I did? Yeah, but I don't want to. She's worth it.

I'm in this limbo which is one thing I don't do very well. I'm not a patient person by any means. I'm in limbo in a lot of different ways. I'm in limbo with my wife in several different ways alone. Waiting on her to talk to me again. Waiting on her to find herself. Waiting on her to figure out how to make herself happy... then watching her do the opposite to make herself happy with some guy instead of figuring out what makes her happy. I feel like this could be years or never at all.

I feel like I'm in limbo with myself. I can't get my confidence back without putting some of my weight back on and hopefully putting on even more than I had while we were together. Tonight I start the Remeron and hopefully the appetite effects will take effect quickly. Once that happens, I can actually do some good at the gym by working out.

I feel like I'm in limbo with my work. The next auction isn't for another month. I have some work to do between now and then scoping out the houses that will go up for auction, but that won't take me anywhere near a month to complete. Finding a fixer upper house at a fraction of it's worth through some other means is near impossible.

Hopefully the Remeron will give me a little more motivation (and sleep) to go out and do more things. I'm just so bored since I can't spend any money to do anything and I'm at the point with my work now where I don't have enough to fill all my days and nights as it has until now. I used to be a really boring person while I was with my wife, mostly because she refused to do anything outside the house. I enjoyed it, though. I like working all day then bumming around the house with her until we went to bed. Never going anywhere or doing anything with her also means I've lost track of all my old friends except a close few. No idea how to get ahold of them. She has tons of old friends she's suddenly best buddies with again because they're all on AIM constantly still finishing up college. Mine are a little older and past that stage in their lives. Trying to break out of that rut with, especially with zero cash to spend is a little harder than I thought it was.

This is all just me venting rhetorically. I know that there are things I can do that don't cost a lot of money, I just have to find them. I like going out on the weekends with friends and having a few beers, but not all the time... not every Friday/Saturday night.

I'm hoping the Remoran gives me the footing I'm looking for to get started here. Time's just moving soooo incredibly slowly for me while she's out there seeing this guy all the time (I assume). Acting as though he doesn't exist and ignoring what she's doing sounds well and good, but its just not happening for me... not while I still feel like she may come around after she's had her fill of being burned by dating and figures out what she does and doesn't like.... not while I feel like she's going to pull a "Daggi" and decide what she wants is what she had with me when we were happy together. Its the waiting for that moment that still may never happen that's making time move so slow... this could be months or even years. I can't imagine my life being in limbo that long. I don't see how anyone can.

When my brother's wife left him after a few years of being married, she was gone 4 months before she came back to him when she decided what she wanted was what she had. I've told my brother everything and he is extremely confident she'll come back. The difference is that A) they already had a son together to motivate her to go back to him and B) if I'm being extremely blunt, she wasn't nearly as attractive as my wife is... she may have just gone back to him because she didn't have any better options. It may take my wife 4 months (its already been 3 weeks since I've moved out), it may take her 4 years. I have absolutely no idea and fear of the unknown can have a crippling feeling. Whether I let that crippling feeling actually cripple me is up to me. I'm having a hard time fighting against it when it seems as though she's still not interested in me. I believe its possible but the open endedness of everything is hard to fight against when you don't know how much farther you have to go. Its like running a marathon that has no preset end. No, its like running a marathon that may not even have an end and that you will just have to give up on after a while. It makes you question every step. Its very, very difficult to put one foot in front of the other while she's sprinting toward other guys and has no idea if she'll ever want to walk back to me.

Moving on would make this a lot easier, but I can't do that. I have to make it look like I'm moving on... I even have to get my head straight to where I feel like I can and will move on... like I'll be ok without her... without actually giving up on her. That feels near impossible... to get to a place where I will be ok without her but still not give up on her. I'm not sure how to get to where I feel like I'll be alright without her without moving on.

Sorry Herb, I haven't been ignoring you. I am just having trouble with my internet connection. I keep getting knocked off-line !!

I have to go drop off my child.

I will post back and clear up a few things for you.

Remember, stay of course. YOU CAN DO THIS ! I know limbo sucks. But, it will not last forever ....

I'll get back to you soon ......

Hey! No problem. I was more or less just venting anyway.

This limbo may actually last forever is what I'm afraid of. Her thing for this first guy she started talking to will burn out eventually, but she's the kind of girl that will always have someone knocking on her door. As soon as its over with this first guy, she'll just bounce on to the next guy endlessly until she finds someone who really sweeps her off her feet. I don't see me even being considered as one of those potential guys in the line. If she were alone at some point, I could see it, but she won't ever be. She'll always have some guy after her and she'll always be after some guy. Its just how she is. If I could get a shot at being one of those guys in the line, I'm sure we'd hit it off again, but I don't see that happening when it'd be more exciting for her to go chase after a new guy and get all of those feelings of excitement getting to know someone new that she thinks she wouldn't get with me because she already knows everything about me. I feel like, regardless of how happy we could be together, I'll never get that chance because she'd have to want to date me first and I can't compete with guys that are new and give her butterflies just because of being new, not because they're better guys for her.

The more I think about this the closer I get to concluding I'm in limbo for something that won't happen. I'm sitting here trying to visualize her wanting to chase after me instead of some other guy and I just can't see it. The attraction to the unknown or the possibility that the next guy could be better for her than me will always be more attractive than dating me, even if its a better version of me.

I know that if somehow she did want to chase after me, that she'd get the same butterflies the first time we kiss as she did when we first met. I feel like if I have any shot at getting a date with her, it'll be years from now and I'll have to be the one to make the move. Any time soon and she'd probably just feel awkward being around me, let alone kissing. She'd really have to WANT me. Thats really hard to imagine right now and I don't see how to make her perception of me so different from what it is now that she'd actually want me more than the attraction of the unknown from her other options. Pretty sad I have to think about my chances of getting a date with my own freaking wife.

I think this is gonna end up with me going to Plan B, cutting all contact, going through with the actual divorce at some point, then me calling her up some day a year or years from now, flirting a little, and throwing up a prayer by seeing if she wants to hang out sometime.

I also think that when she thinks of us getting back together, she thinks of immediately diving right back into being married again... me moving in, sleeping in the same bed, seeing each other every day, etc. She specifically said being madly in love isn't for her right now when we had our talk... that she's not there yet. Well, I wouldn't expect her to just call and say "Hey I want you back! Grab your stuff and come on back!" I'd want to take it slow and basically start over as if we just met. I think thats crucial to falling back in love again... going through the same process we did the first time. Thinking about this more, I believe more and more that its very likely telling her that I think we can work this out may have made her think I'm waiting for her to tell me to move back in. If thats true, she's feeling pressured and thats why she's withdrawn again... I still haven't heard one word from her since Saturday night.

How do I communicate this to her without bringing up relationship talk? By "this", I mean starting over again from scratch.

Daggi, if you read this, what do you think? Your experience here would be invaluable.

Only way I see her wanting me is if I make myself more attractive than she's ever seen me. Active listening and meeting her needs for conversation, appreciation and admiration aren't going to cut it. So, how do I make myself more attractive? I've got to drop bombs on her. She won't know what's hit her. Lets see here..

1) Make big bucks
2) Bulk up and get ripped
3) Get tan
4) Do some random stuff to create mystery

All of this will boost my confidence which will naturally make me more attractive as well.

Any other ideas from the ladies?

Another night goes by and still haven't heard a word from her. As far as I can tell, the only time her screen name has been online was briefly while she was at work around lunch. Why the sudden change? She seemed so excited to come on and talk to me after our talk, then she went out that night... then she was online a few times I was at the same time but never said a word to me... now she's not even leaving her screen name online. I have a feeling she's spending a lot of time at the other guy's apartment or something, but I really have absolutely no idea. I don't know how she's pulling that off and leaving "her" (our) dog at the house by herself all day and all night.

I don't understand the sudden change. If she'd completely broken off contact right after our talk, maybe it'd make sense... but not 30 minutes after that she came back online and was joking around, telling me to check out new pics of her on her profile...

Maybe one of her girl friends tried to tell her I was manipulating her or something. Maybe one of them told her to stay away from me. Maybe one of them told her to avoid me at all costs and see how I react. Maybe its her idea and she's testing me to see if I contact her. Maybe this other guy's opened up to a relationship and she's spending every minute with him. Maybe she's noticed that I haven't been the one to contact her first in a couple of weeks and she's testing it to see if I call her since she's not online. I have absolutely no idea. It just doesn't make much sense. I have no way of knowing anything, but I'd have to guess that its a combination of spending time with this other guy and her buddies telling her she needs to stop all contact with me for a while. No clue. I'm tempted to ask her sister that used to feed me information, but I haven't asked her anything about what my wife's been doing for a couple of weeks now... since I stopped flip flopping. I know thats not a good idea and I won't, but it is tempting. I'm also afraid I'm going to run into her with him somewhere. If that happens, I can't say how I'll react. I may snap. I may beat the living snot out of him. I may just walk away. Once again, I have no idea.... seems like a running theme for my life the last 3-4 weeks.

Herb... Stop... breathe

i so know all that you feel, i have been there, god have i been there and it got me to a complete nervous wreck, i almost ended up in a mental hospital. You are driving yourself crazy with all the thinking... maybe this... maybe that. Fact is... you DONT KNOW. Quit all the "maybes".

My honest opinion about her recent withdrawal from you? It was this talking about this site... she aint ready for it. She is afraid that if she contacts you again, you will again say something like this. And your posts clearly state that you DO want to talk to her about your relationship again. You want to tell that it wouldnt just be jumping right into the marriage again, etc. How long has it been since all this started? Not since you moved out. It is all still very fresh.

I know you assume she is spending all of her time with some other guy, etc. And what does that do? Noting, except for driving you crazy, and you feel more and more the need to talk to her, cause you think that if you just say the right thing to her, she will "snap" out of it. That wont happen Herb. I did all those wrong things for geez...lemme see... oh about 9 months!!!! And all it got me was that my Husband retreated so far away from me, he didnt even reply to my emails anymore, no matter what the context was.

A couple months ago he told me, he had even stopped reading my emails, he never even checked anymore what was in them. Dont go the same route. You are doing very good in not contacting her, now you just need to try to get your own mind clear, for your own sake. That will make it easier for you then too, when she contacts you again, not to jump right back into telling her something that you think she only needs to know in order to come back.

Do you read her a lot? You can learn so much by reading other threads, they might not be in the same situation as you, but there are always little things in each thread that help me just reading them. I think i wrote it before, you are your worst enemy right now. You believe the longer she is gone, the smaller the chance gets that she might come back. This is not true. She will take the time that she needs, reguardless of what you do. Work on yourself, keep yourself busy, but not for her, for yourself. I know right now every single waking moment your thoughts are going crazy thinking of her, what is she doing, does she miss me, why hasnt she contacted me, maybe she is doing this, maybe she is never coming back.

One important thing that i had to learn was, when my husband now contacts me, which is not that often, i let him talk, and i only react to what he is saying. Whatever he talks about, i talk to him about. I only "give" as much as he "gives". If he comes and gives me a hug, i give him one back. If he shares information about his life, i get involved in this conversation, show interest. I dont tell him much about myself unless he asks. Usually he doesnt ask, but thats ok. It used to bother me, but not anymore, now i look at the positive things that are there, instead of focusing on the negative parts. He hasnt divorced me, this is one huge sign for me, and one of the most positive there are. And each time i feel down and hopeless, i bring that thought in my head, and tell myself, what am i getting myself all worked up about? If he wanted the marriage over, he would have done so already. Try to focus on the positive things. Well, i think i can hear you thinking now "there is nothing positve at the moment, she doesnt even contact me" Dont worry about this, she will contact you again, trust me. Let her make the steps and let her decide how big those steps are, dont try to drag her to the finish line, it doesnt work. Whatever step she makes, you make the exact same step, stay on the same level, dont make one step further ahead.

Right now focus on just being her friend, when she contacts you again. Dont try to force any talks, she might seem understanding and open, but i dont think that she is at this point. If she would have been, you would have heard from her, she would have contacted you and said, hey, where is this link you promised me. But she hasnt.

How were things when you didnt talk about the marriage? When you just went there to help her fix things or take care of the dog? She kept contacting you, didnt she? I know its hard Herb, but you have to remember one thing, the more you push and rush, even if it doesnt seems like pushing and rushing to you, the more she will retreat.

Respect and accept her decisison for now, without telling her, just do it. By being a friend to her, i know you want to be so much more than just a friend that occassionally talks to her, and it hurts. But this is reality, this is the present at the moment, the past is gone... the future is unknown. The only thing you can do is accept the present.

Sorry i am in a slightly different time zone (Kuwait)and thats why i usually cant answer you right away.

Daggi made a post in her thread that was extremely insightful for my situation. She is going through exactly what my wife is going through right now with feeling like she's lost herself and getting a superficial fix from a new guy.



My response:


Daggi used the word cycle when describing her husband. Thats exactly where I'm at right now. My wife is in a never-ending cycle of getting the attention she NEEDS from guys she finds even semi physically attractive. She has that need for attention and attraction from decent looking guys to make herself feel good about herself. Mark my words, she will NEVER face the fact that she cannot be without a guy. She will simply bounce from one guy to the next as soon as he stops giving her that attention, as she's done with me... it just took her longer to bounce away since we were married.

Daggi said she eventually woke up and realized the right guy for her was her husband. Why would my wife wake up to that if she never has a dry spell of being alone? She did for a few days a couple of weeks ago when this first guy she started talking to avoided her. She was in a horribly bad mood the entire time. As soon as he started paying attention to her, suddenly the world is right again for her. She doesn't see it. She has no idea. She doesn't care. She just knows that she's happy when he wants her and she's sad when he doesn't. She'll continue on with this guy, regardless of how far from "right" for her he is, until he stops paying attention to her. I have no idea when that'll be. It could be months. If he really gets to know her and likes her as much as I did, it could be years. No way to know. It doesn't matter if he's a loser with no future... HE does not matter, it only matters to her that he shows her attention. The only way she'd give up a decent looking guy being attracted to her is if he hurt her or really scared her.

So, when he does finally get tired of her and stop giving her attention, she'll bounce to the next guy... there's another several months of waiting for this next guy to stop showing her attention.

Cycle is exactly right. What am I supposed to do here to break it? How do I make it so that she ME to be the decent looking guy giving her attention? Even if she did want my attention again, she'd stop herself from taking it because she thinks she's "forcing" herself to find herself... when she's really just medicating herself with new guy after new guy. She's doing NOTHING to find herself by dating guy after guy, but she's so addicted to it that, knowing her as well as I do, she will NEVER break the addiction. She'll just continue doing it until she finds a guy that doesn't get tired of her, just like she did with me, and then marry him.

I never got tired of her, but I did do things that would make her think I was getting tired of her, which is why she was unhappy and looked for attention outside the marriage. If she could feel my feelings and know how much I valued her every single day, how lucky I felt to be with her.. if I'd just gotten over my insecurities and TOLD her in a way that would make her understand just how much I appreciated her.. we wouldn't be here.

How do I break this non-stop cycle of guy after guy? Do I wait for a break in the clouds between guys and go for it? By go for it, I mean show her attention... call her, chase her like a random guy she met would. Those few days this first new guy was avoiding her was when she was talking to me all the time. I realize now she was getting her attention fix from me at that point. At the time, I was told not to pursue her, but I think that may have been a mistake. I think I could have used that desire for attention from me to capitalize on the opportunity and make her want my attention even more. Then, suddenly this guy decides he wants to give her attention again and BAM... she's not talking to me again. She still hasn't talked to me since last Saturday when I told her I think I've found how to work this out.

I'm pretty lost here. I'm not sure how to proceed when this first new guy gets tired of her. If he does, she's got another guy (her best friend's brother) posting on her facebook profile that he'd like to take her out for dinner sometime. As soon as this first guy doesn't give her what she needs, she'll jump straight over to this next guy and I won't get a chance to make a move. Everyone's told me not to pursue her... let her come to you. Well, if for some reason she DOES come to me (to talk and get attention from me) during the 30 second break between guys, what do you think? Should I pursue her at that point? Should I give her the attention she wants? Whats to stop her from not wanting my attention again as soon as she talks to this next guy?

Should I pursue her and, then, if she stops wanting my attention as soon as she talks to the next guy, go to plan B, write her a letter explaining that I feel like she wants my attention only when a new guy isn't giving her attention... that I'd love to give her the attention she needs... that I'd like to start over and take her out sometime and give her a "here's how if you decide to go for it"?

Herb,

I have been reading some of your thread and thought I would offer some things for you to consider. First, you need to stop worrying about her and what she is thinking. Why? You cannot affect what she is thinking right now. You cannot fill the hole she is digging right now.

What you can do is make your life as enjoyable as possible. You have been given some very detailed things to do and consider and have you done any of them? Nope, you are suffering from paralysis by analysis. Quit analyzing everything and get on with living your life.

You asked a few questions I thought I would address
Moving on does NOT mean dating. It means starting to do things in your life that you enjoy. If you want to grow that beard...do it. It is for you, what your W thinks is not important right now. The idea that you can survive this is important because YOU WILL SURVIVE THIS NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. The only issue is will you survive this having learned, grown, and with a view toward your future. Make the changes that bring you inner peace. Make the changes that make you feel physically tired but happy. You don't have to date, and you shouldn't as long as you are married.

There will come a time if nothing changes when you will KNOW it is time to let go. If that time comes before your W gets this out of her system, then she loses and you divorce her and move on with the life you are constructing now.

You have many adjustments to make, start making them. It will take quite awhile before you are comfortable with them.

You also asked
I think what was meant is that you will get little feelers once she become curious or things are not so great in La La land. You might consider ignoring those. More overt actions such as asking you over for a meal or something should be responded to appropriately. But, if you decided to go, don't smoother her, let her lead the parade and you engage her about things in general.

You also said
Manipulation is out. However Herb, this is a lot like fishing. You need to present the bait properly, you need to figure out where the fish are, you need to use the right technique. And MOST OF ALL YOU NEED PATIENCE.

If I had any advice for you it is to be STILL. Be still in your heart, your mind, and your emotions. Easier said than done, but the point is if you are not still you will miss things you will need to see. IF you are worried if she even thinks of you, you not focusing on your life, nor are you going to pick up things you will need to know.

Calm yourself, let the waters flow by you without splashing, and you will find that you get glimpses of the fish, you will sense when things need to change and how they need to change. You will hear your own counsel much better.

Quit trying to guess what she is doing and then acting on it. She has made her decision and actually her decision is really more about her than you, that is why you have so little influence. She may blame you, but that is just justification for doing what she KNOWS is wrong and trying to avoid the responsibility of her own decisions.

You really are not a major part of her decision making and you need to realize this. Work on you, work on making your life something that YOU enjoy, and keep still emotionally.

Those are my words of advice. I hope you find some of them of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

I guess what I'm getting at here is that she feels like she needs to find herself and figure out what makes her happy... but she's never going to because she will always just bounce from guy to guy. To find herself she'd have to be alone and that will never happen. She will NEVER be without a guy. I know her well enough to know that for sure. I'm supposed to be sitting here waiting on her to figure out that she needs to be on her own and be happy without getting her happiness from a guy's attention. Well, thats not going to happen. She won't ever let it. She doesn't need to. She'll just keep wasting time on guys until each one gets tired of her, then go find the next one who does want to give her attention... over and over again. Eventually she MAY find a guy that doesn't ever get tired of her... or, she'll start to get old enough that she HAS to settle for someone so that she can have kids.

If we assume that she will NEVER find herself because she will never be able to handle being alone, that means that my only way to be with her is to give her what she needs... attention... but she has to WANT me to give her attention. Just being her friend and not pursuing her isn't giving her the attention she craves to feel better about herself. I'm going to have to pursue her to have any shot at this, its just a question of when she wants my attention. Right now she's still not contacting me in any way.

The next time she wants my attention is probably going to be when this first new guy gets tired of her and stops giving her attention. I have no idea how long that will be, but he's 19, in college and has plenty of reasons to stop paying attention to her... I can't imagine it going longer than a month or two, but its possible because, from what my wife's sister that knows him pretty well said, he's the obsessive type. I guess he ran off his previous girlfriend of 4 years who had an abortion when she got pregnant because of how obsessed he got with her.

Once that falls through, I'm going to have to make a move if she starts wanting my attention again. Hopefully, by then my business will be bringing in a profit and I'll have bulked up, gotten tan, gotten ripped at the gym and she'll have noticed that I'm happier, more confident and strong enough to dust myself off and go on without her.

Herb,

You could call her to see if she is OK. Nothing specific just call to see that she is doing OK. It shows interest, it shows care, and leaves the door open for her to contact you if she wants. Just a short call, nothing dramatic, just inquire, and once you have the answer then go ahead and get off, while letting her know she can talk to you if she needs to.

It is part of the fishing thing. Show the bait, but don't leave it in one place too long.

Think about it.

JL

JL,

Thank you for taking the time to post. I appreciate your help.

I agree that I can't control what she does or how she thinks. I can control me and thats what I'm in the process of deciding how to control myself. I believe I've come to terms with that. I can't control when or how much she wants to open that door, but I can control how I react when she does.

You mentioned:


I have to respectfully disagree here. She doesn't think what she's doing is wrong in any way and won't ever think what she's doing is wrong. She's split up with me, we're separated and dating while she's still legally married is not wrong to her. If it weren't for the fact that I want her back, I would be doing the same thing right now. The fact that I want her back doesn't make it wrong for her to date other people when she has said its over and has made it clear she's fine with me dating other people. Her conscience is free and clear. This won't ever affect her judgment.

The whole idea of waiting for her to open the door to peek, then ignoring it seems to ignore her need for attention. I feel that those times that she opens the door.. those times when she wants my attention are my opportunity to give her the attention she needs... to meet her emotional need for being desired. If I don't use that opportunity when it comes, I will be stuck waiting another several months for the next guy she moves onto to stop paying attention to her. I really don't see the point in waiting for that. If she opens the door and wants my attention, I don't see why I shouldn't take that opportunity. Isn't that what my goal is here? For her to want my attention and then capitalize on it by doing everything I should have done while we were married?

My question now is more of ... what do I do if I give her the attention she craves (when she wants it from me) and she cuts it off again when she starts talking to the next new guy? I'm also not going to have any clue if she's still getting attention from the first new guy when she starts wanting attention from me again. One could assume that if she's wanting my attention, that she's not getting it somewhere else.

JL,

Again, I very much appreciate your posts. They're giving me a perspective I wouldn't have otherwise. Thank you again.

I think I'm going to continue waiting for her to contact me. I haven't been on AIM all week and she has to have noticed by now. I don't want to manipulate her or control her. I want it to be her idea and her decision if she wants to contact me. IF she does, however, it IS under my control how I react if she shows interest in my attention. How she chooses to react to my reaction is up to her, obviously. I have a feeling she will contact me sooner or later. She'll have to about our joint account or some other detail at some point. We'll see how the conversation goes.

I would greatly appreciate some more feedback on how to proceed if she does begin to want my attention again. There were many great points made earlier in this thread on why to ignore her opening the door. Has that opinion changed with the realization I've had that she will never "find herself"? That she will never be alone? It seems as though her opening the door and fishing for my attention would be exactly what I'm waiting for. Why pass it up if she's never going to have that epiphany that she has a need for male attention?

Reposting what Stilllovingher suggested:


All of this makes sense and its very possible that if I give her the attention she's craving from men, she will slam the door shut as you say. However, if I ignore her, she will simply go find that attention from one of several guys who HAVE shown interest in her (not just friendly attention, but having someone desire her and be attracted to her). Then I'm stuck waiting months for that to fizzle out again (with the slight possibility that it could be even longer or that the next guy might take years to get tired of her), at which point I'll be right back where I was when I had the opportunity after this first guy fizzles out.

It seems as though my best shot at this is to fulfill her need for a man being attracted to her at my first opportunity. She may slam the door shut, but at least I tried. My other option is to ignore the opportunity and wait months or years for another opportunity that may never come around again.

Daggi, keeping in mind that I'm quite certain she will never be forced to be alone and will bounce from guy to guy, what do you think I should do? Should I take the first opportunity to meet her biggest need that I failed to meet while we were married?

I haven't been the one to contact her a single time since I stopped flip flopping almost 3 weeks ago. It takes the pressure off of her and makes it seem as though I will move on without her, but it also fails to meet her need for being desired. I believe now that not feeling desired enough was the biggest reason she fell out of love with me. She knows that I think we can work this out, she knows that I WANT to work this out, but I've yet to get the opportunity to SHOW her that I desire her because of being afraid it will pressure her and run her off. There's also the issue of her desire for a challenge. She once told me while we were married that because I was a typical guy and was always in the mood for sex, that she felt like there was no challenge and that she didn't want it because of that. If I take the next opportunity when she wants my attention and go after her, it may make her feel as though there's no challenge. I'll have to play my cards carefully to make sure I'm not over-pursuing her just as I would if I dated any other woman. ******, right now she might feel as though there's no challenge knowing that I want her back.

This all comes down to her need to feel wanted by a guy that's choosing her when he could choose one of several other women. She doesn't see me as choosing to give her attention over other women right now because I refuse to show any interest in other women. I've told her that I'll be ok without her and it wasn't a lie.. I do feel now that I'll be ok without her, but she hasn't seen any proof of that short of me not being online at all this week and not contacting her at all.

Perhaps in a month or two months when I've developed some interest from other women.. when I've got my income settled... when I've bulked up and gone to the gym... when I've started movingon... perhaps then she will feel as though I'm choosing to give her my attention. I mean.. she SHOULD feel that way because I *AM* choosing her over other women. Its not manipulation... its not a ploy... its the truth. I'm not going to get into relationships with the women I meet.. they'll know full well that my dating them isn't exclusive. And if it doesn't work out with my wife, maybe I'll have met someone worth looking into anyway. I don't feel there's anything wrong with dating non-exclusively if I'm up front about the circumstances. Waiting around and not starting the process of moving on is counterproductive to A) me finding someone else if my wife and I don't work out and B) showing my wife that I'd choose her over any one of them.

Like Still said... me moving on and her seeing that I'll be ok without her is critical. So... time to do just that.

Well, her sister volunteered some information I didn't ask for or really want to know. Apparently she's already gotten tired of the first guy being a loser and playing games with her. While that was going on is when she was getting attention from me instead, since he wasn't giving it to her. Apparently, now she's already moved on to getting attention from another guy that was a couple of years ahead of her in high school. I don't know much about this guy but I know he's my age and not a huge loser like the first. Again, I'm worried that she could get attention from this guy for quite a while... its possible that they hit it off. Is there anything I can do about it now? Nope. All I can do is take a swing at giving her the attention she's looking for IF it fizzles out with this second new guy. I have a feeling this could be months or even years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> This is a huge blow for me. Now I know why she hasn't been online much or tried to contact me even once all week... she's been busy chasing this guy. I'm the last thing on her mind I'm sure.

Why should I continue on with this if there's no end in sight and there could be no end at all? I'm going to have to move on and if the opportunity happens to open up sometime months or years from now, I can decide then whether or not to take it. Avoiding moving on and avoiding dating new people isn't healthy... waiting around for something that probably won't ever happen isn't healthy.

Blah. She just called to ask me if I can watch the dog for her the next couple of days so that she can work a temporary part-time job. She went on and on about the job, I listened actively, asked questions, etc. I told her that I wasn't sure yet but that I'd planned on going out of town with a couple of friends down to a nearby college for the weekend. Problem is I don't have anyone to watch my dog either.

She mentioned how they let you bring in CDs for everyone to listen to, etc. and I mentioned that I'd gotten a copy of the demo CD for the local band that we're both huge fans of... and that I'd give her a copy next time I saw her. She mentioned their CD release party and I told her how the lead singer had told us that he wants to get us VIP tickets, etc. I said to her that if she and her best friend at work ended up going to their next local show on July 1st that I could introduce 'em to the band if they wanted. I'm supposed to call her back later on tonight and let her know if I'm goin outta town or not this weekend.

Its good that she called me and that I didn't initiate contact all week even though she didn't. Its bad that she's only calling me to ask me to do things for her. She did go on and on about the part time job, telling me things that she didn't need to. I told her I was jealous and asked her to let me know if she hears about any other well paying part time jobs that she hears about. But, I still sensed no interest in me. I'm not sure how to take it. She said she's supposed to work tomorrow night, some on Saturday and maybe even some on Sunday. She could still go out afterward, but that doesn't leave much time or energy for socializing after working her first job all day, then going to this second job. She also mentioned that she hasn't been sleeping well at all the past few weeks... at one point she said the dog was keeping her up because she was home alone all day while my wife is at work.

Oh yeah, I mentioned that someone came to see my truck I'm trying to sell today. That reminded her to tell me that our bank is having a special on refinancing and she's going to look into it this coming week. Refinancing = taking my name off the house. Ouch. Not the direction I'm wanting to go. She still hasn't ever said a word about filing divorce papers. She may be letting that go because neither of us can afford to pay for it.

I'm not sure if I should try to start a conversation with her when I call her back or what. This all has me pretty bummed out. She knows I think we could work this out but now she's telling me she's looking into refinancing now because of the special interest rates where as before she was going to wait until this summer. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to do. She sounded like she wanted to talk to me and tell me about the new job and stuff, but then she drops the refinance bomb on me. I don't get it. Should I tell her I'm not in any rush to get my name off the house? Probably not I guess, if I've really decided to move on.

I'm really freaking frustrated. I guess its good that she wants to keep me in her life but its only because she wants me to do things for her. On one hand, I could watch the dog and do things for her (which probably will get me nowhere anyway) or the other side is to go out of town anyway and make her think I'm out having a good time and moving on. Tough choice.

What's my goal here? I want her to want my attention instead of some other guy's. How do I get there from here? Well, she's got to feel that I'm choosing to give her my attention when I could be giving it to someone else (and this would be the truth, I might add). To do that, she's got to think I'm moving on, having fun and seeing other people... which, I guess I will be whether I like it or not.

I guess my answer is to not watch the dog for her and go ahead and move on.

All of my friends I lean on when I get down... plus these forums are telling me the same thing. That is... move on, go out, have some fun and don't worry about if she changes her mind about you. If she does, great but move on and be okay without her for yourself, not because thats the only way she'd ever want you again. Get your confidence back and learn to be happy and confident without her.

I know this is what I need to do. Now its time to do it. I've got to stop checking her facebook profile constantly... I've got to stop checking her away message all the time. I have to essentially put her in the past, with the exception of when she makes contact, which looks as though it will usually only be when she needs something from me. So far, I've just been acting like I'm moving on but now I actually am. If I feel like dating someone, I'm going to, regardless of the fact that I'm still legally married. She doesn't want to be married anymore and that means we aren't married in any way except by a piece of paper. Sitting around waiting for her isn't going to do me any good or her any good. I'll continue with my "Plan A" in that I'll continue to improve her opinion of me with each time she gets a glimpse of me. I won't be waiting around for her, though. There's no reason for her to feel any sense of guilt that I'm waiting for her, so waiting around doesn't seem like it would do either of us any good. I doubt there ever comes a time where I'll move to Plan B and cut off all contact. I don't see what good that would do. Plan B sounds more like a last ditch effort to knock a WS off the fence if they're playing both sides. My wife isn't playing both sides at all. She's playing the other side with no attempt at playing my side, thus... Plan B wouldn't do any good.

Its time to let go and just let whatever happens happen.

Remember this? This was your plan.

I agree with you...time to detach, time to let go, but you wrote a plan, you started on a path to try and repair something...and all you can do is repair from you end, but everyone tells us that we must "earn" our way out of a marriage, even if the other person is already "out".

This is to help us heal, to grow and to not make the same mistakes in the next one if this one ends up not working out.

You need to bail right now because you have been obsessed, and now your mind is saying this cannot continue so I am just going to throw in the towel, and maybe throwing in the towel is the right thing to do however...

You still have healing/growing/rebuilding to do.

I learned a technique called "pattern interupt" when I had obsessive thoughts, and it really works.

Every time a thought of her pops into your head a big sign flashes the word STOP, or better yet "IRRELEVANT".

This will help you train your mind, discipline it to stay away from thought process which do not serve you. And helps you to stop the obsessive thoughts and to detach.

Try it, it really works.

Quote: "Daggi, keeping in mind that I'm quite certain she will never be forced to be alone and will bounce from guy to guy, what do you think I should do? Should I take the first opportunity to meet her biggest need that I failed to meet while we were married?"

I dont really know, Herb. I havent been there yet on either side. Not when i was a WS and not since i have been a BS. The only thing i can say is that if she contacts you, dont give her more than what she gives you, that will come across as smothering and pressure. Other than that, i am really not sure, trying to find all that out myself still. I havent been in the situation where my Husband wasnt with someone, dont forget he has been living with his girlfriend pretty much like she is his wife for about a year and a half or more. So i havent crossed that road myself yet, and dont know if i ever will.