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Dear Low Orbit, I'm not sure I've ever had the pleasure of talking to you one-on-one, but I wanted to tell you that I ran across the following response from you, and it made me cry. It is beautiful. I hope it's okay that I quote it: habiba...
I went through a similar struggle as you. I'll simply share my experience and maybe you can get something from it.
I used to be very, very fundamental and literalist. I tried to live by every rule and regulation I thought I could find in the Bible. I was VERY critical and judgemental of others who wouldn't accept that the Bible had all the answers anybody could need...
Then it all fell apart. I was angry at God for a long time...I held Him responsible; after all, I believed I was holding up my end so why didn't He hold up His? I felt cheated.
I came to realize that a relationship with God has NOTHING to do with all the little rules and regulations one can dig out obscure scriptures...it has EVERYTHING to do with an attitude of the heart.
God is able to be perfect and holy because He has both free will AND omniscience. Man is INCAPABLE of being perfect and holy BECAUSE he has free will WITHOUT omniscience.
Don't you think God knew this when He created us? Of course He did. He NEVER expected us to NOT SIN. I think the plan of Redemption through Christ was an integral part of our creation...not a response to our failing.
So, with that said, yes, I guess God did sort of set us up to fail...if you want to look at it as failure. Scripture emphasizes that God chose to love the people He related to DESPITE their imperfection. I think that's the lesson we get from Biblical accounts...it's one of hope.
Ultimately, my relationship with God is NOT about keeping regulations...but about internalizing only two principles; 1) Love God with all your being and 2) Love others as you love yourself.
If you've chosen to take God up on his offer of redemption through Christ, that sets you on a very unique and individual journey of trying to figure out how these two principles play out in your life. Indeed, there is total freedom in Christ...but with it is responsibility to fulfill the two principles.
I evaluate my actions and thoughts in the following terms these days...1) Is a thought or action unloving towards God? and 2) Is this thought or action unloving towards myself or another? 3) How did God deal with this with others in the past?
The little stuff I used to sweat about (occasional drinks, mixed fabrics, etc) are all in perspective and aren't issues...because I don't think they are big issues for me...in my time and circumstance.
Things are much more simple now: Love God, Love others, Love myself. If it doesn't fit that model, then I have a problem.
So how do I manage problems...because, of course, I'm not perfect...
I acknowledge my error to God and those I've offended, asked (but not expected) forgiveness, and changed my actions.
I am at peace with myself.
I don't think it's up to others to tell me when I'm "sinning", as that's an issue between God and myself, however, others can tell me when they think I'm behaving in a hurtful or unloving way.
Affairs are extremely hurtful and destructive. They violate both principles and it's clear that God never approved of adultery in scripture.
So, that is my experience. I'm solid with God these days. He's always been solid with me (despite my thinking otherwise). I try to avoid putting Him or anyone else in a "box" because I'm not smart enough to know His or anyone else's heart.
Low Low, I don't know much about you. Heck, I can't keep up with most folks who post here these days. So I haven't gone looking for responses from you before, but I'll begin now. My walk with God has been... gosh... what would I call it?... difficult, yes, difficult. I was so emeshed into (what I call) "churchianity" that I missed the point entirely. I have been searching for the truth FOR YEARS, and always felt that I somehow missed the answers. Understand, I've always had a relationship with God, and Christ, but aside from the legalism, I couldn't tell you what I believed. I promise not to just take your words and make them mine. Relationship demands that I make my own way with God... but your words have given me a beginning place. A simple place... one step on the path. Thank you for putting your heart out there... I needed to read this today. Bless you!!
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I saw and was affected by that post from LO, too, NBII.
I almost commented on it when I read it, but thought it would be a threadjack at that time. Thanks for re-posting it here.
Lori
VERY HAPPY! FBS/FWS; 47yo; M-29 yrs.; DS-26,DD-21; our affairs: 1990-'96
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Doing the bump... for Low Orbit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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I'm glad you found it useful.
I've been through a lot phases in my faith...the initial "on fire" phase, the mature "deacon" and "elder" phase, and now a deeper, more personal phase.
I'm ashamed to confess that I believed I KNEW what God wanted because I was SO good at keeping the rules. I lorded it over others in a backhanded compassionate-conservative way. I was quick to point out the errors of others and be extremely vocal about how others should behave. I could alway find scripture to back me up..."See, the Bible says...". I was modern day Pharisee.
I'm at a point now where I believe that God isn't nearly as concerned about some of this crazy stuff as we are (women wearing pants in church? big deal). I don't believe the world is intrinsically evil or that people are evil at heart. There is great beauty in life and love and we shouldn't let other steal that from us in the name of propriety. We were MADE imperfect...but I still think God was pleased with what he had made.
Jesus asked Peter..."Do you love me?" We express our love for God by loving each other. That includes people who we think offend our sensibilities. There are so many different aspects to humanity that it only makes sense that life with others will be "messy" and not always black and white. I happen to think that's a wonderful thing.
JMHO, Low
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LO,
Just wanted you to know that I found this really, really helpful, too. And I never would have seen it if NB hadn't pulled it out and re-posted it. Thanks NB.
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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LO, I love your post. It is so true, so simple and yet so difficult to achieve what we must do. I have one question: 1) Love God with all your being and 2) Love others as you love yourself. How does one love God ? I have difficulty imagining the actions I should take to show God my love. Loving others AND myself is one way, but that is in number 2. What else shows God we love him?
cc
"Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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You're welcome, SC!
Lo,
I have been many of the places you have been, although being a woman, I was never a deacon or elder (gasp! I was baptized in the Church of Christ and later became a Baptist, by the way - now I'm Anglican by label, Christian by belief)... aaaanyway... I was where you were, was very involved in my church, was church secretary and knew everything, and I mean EVERYthing about everyone in the church... had many other issues within the church (caused a split) and annoyingly unapologetic for shoving my beliefs down others throats.
Then I cracked, failed, turned away... you name it.
I feel like I've been trying to find solid ground ever since.
And I LOVE what you've written here and want to get to that place SO BAD. That knowingness is a beautiful thing. And like cc46, I'd like to know how to love God in a truly meaningful way. Like cc, I try to treat others in a way that I want to be treated, and to respect all of God's creation and creatures... but other than that, how do you see it?
I hope you don't mind these questions... it's an important conversation, I think.
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I'd like to know how to love God in a truly meaningful way. I wish I could tell you how to do this. I don't think it's necessarily the same for everyone. According to the Gospels, Jesus said "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments." His commandments are to love God and then others. I think we show love for God when we learn to appreciate the simple beauty of His handiwork...a sunset, a child's wonder, a dog's affection. I'd like to think it pleases Him when we find pleasure in what He's done for us. I think He finds pleasure in seeing our imaginations at work. I think we show love for God when we show love for others without guile. I think we show love for God when show grace to others and ourselves. I think others are drawn to Him by seeing His handiwork in our lives. What was my turning point? I realized I was wallowing in my own guilt to escape the responsibility of living abundantly. God was ready to forgive me and love me and let me get on with living. My refusal to do as much for myself was not only stealing my pleasure in life, but His in me. Low
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Thanks LO. I just thought you might have the formula, but obviously, if it were that easy people would state it instead of "love God". One thing I've found to be a possible way of showing God we love him, is to be happy. That's what a priest said: he said that when you really find God, you'll find happiness. And when he said this, he had so much JOY in him it really impressed me. Maybe he's right. There are so many beautiful things in the world, and they remind you of God if you want to be reminded every second of the day and night.
So maybe that is it. Just be happy.
cc
"Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Oh Low, again a beautiful post. Thank you! I know you're right... I know it in my bones... What I struggle with is this: While I strive *always* to live in grace (such a word! I love grace!) and show compassion to all... ... there is the ugly underside that is greedy, angry and questioning... (I tend to be a black-and-white thinker, can you tell? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )... were you ever like this? At what point in your maturity did you gain this peace?? I know you gave a kind-of timeline, but did something happen first? Empty nest? Health issues? Anything you can pin-point and discuss?? I just love everything you've written here... so moving. After all these years of being a Christian, I just wish I had a better relationship with God.
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I've had a very hard time lately finding a church that I really "fit" into. Not because the people weren't great...most were wonderful, but I'd like to be part of a body with similar beliefs.
I had been part of an SBC affiliated church for a long time. Wonderful, loving folks, but the direction of the church and the SBC was starting to run counter to my way of thinking.
I'm pretty close to ELCA Lutheran, but I struggle with some of their doctrinal elements. I think they have a healthy view of scripture. That's where I may end up.
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... there is the ugly underside that is greedy, angry and questioning... (I tend to be a black-and-white thinker, can you tell? )... were you ever like this? At what point in your maturity did you gain this peace?? I know you gave a kind-of timeline, but did something happen first? Empty nest? Health issues? Anything you can pin-point and discuss?? Of course there is the "greedy, angry, questioning" part of us. Stillwed might call that our "wounded child". But I got to a point where I gave myself permission to FEEL all of it without judging myself...but at the same time, acknowledging and managing the impact they had on my actions. I don't hold self grudges. A lot of "third person" technique - What would I think of a person who was behaving this way? I can't really point to a particular time, but I think I really started making progress when I went to IC. The IC gave me a lot of new tools to manage myself - without judging myself. Low
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Yes, my therapy has been life-changing in the area of self-love... and not continuing to punish myself (which does NOBODY any good - though I still fall back into the patterns, at times)... I agree that counseling can be VERY beneficial.
ECLA Lutheran? What do they say about the Bible, if you don't mind sharing.
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Low, How long were you in counseling? I've been going to IC for about 3 months, dealing with the very same things you're talking about. Sometimes I feel like I'm making progress... other times I feel like I'm going in circles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />Thanks again for this thread. Keep it coming.... --SC
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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I know we're not supposed to post external links, but maybe the mods will let me by with this one: ELCA FAQ - The Bible
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Thank you so much for posting that, LO. Much easier than trying to explain ten pages of information in a little square box, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have looked through it and saved it on my favorites to study later. Very, VERY interesting. I see what you mean... a lot of good stuff there...
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(bumping for Good Friday)
"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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*
Last edited by new_beginningII; 04/18/06 11:04 AM.
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Hi Low! That famous question I asked you about how to love God has never left my mind. So today I finally got around to starting to research on the internet. I found two very nice opinions which just MAY convince me. I thought I would post the links for you in case you're interested. <a href="www.theologywebsite.com/archives/avi/god_hard_to_lov.shtml" target="_blank">theology website</a> and another I'll meditate them
cc
"Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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