Someone,


My best interpretation of the scripture is that if you d, and then marry another and d the 2nd spouse, you cannot go back to the first spouse after marrying & divorcing a 2nd spouse. From what little you have posted so far, I don't think Deut 24 applies to your situation.


One reason why I don't think it applies is because I believe in your heart you did not feel you were d. You and your h seperated but were still married, legally and I think in your heart also. Hence, you said you had an A while seperated. May I ask if you are a Christian? If you were to die tonight are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? In other words, have you accept Christ as your Saviour?


I can imagine your pain maybe a little more than most here on mb. My h has 2 OC by the same OW, ages 16 & 10. We have been married almost 20 years and have a COM age 14. How much I wish it would be a long distance A, but the OW actually lives and has always lived within 15 miles of our home. While my h confessed a ONS years ago, he never mentioned a child and it was only less than 8 months ago I discovered the existence of the OC.


I encourage you first to read Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8 & Romans 10:13. And 1 John chapters 1 & 2, in regard to forgiveness. And in regard to marriage and reconcilation I encourage you to read 1 Corithians 7, the whole chapter.

These are verses that have really helped me, especially with reconcilation.

From what you have said, my best interpretation is that it would NOT be sin for you to attempt to reconcile with your h.

Somethings my IC has shared with me that may also help you. There is the written word (the Bible) and the Living word (the Holy Spirit living within each Christian). Ask the Lord to show you the truth and lean on Him for this.

It will be difficult. I encourage you to establish boundaries and commit to standing by your boundaries. But I think if you and your h are willing, the hard work will be well worth it and you can rebuild your marriage.

There is a ministry that deals with remarriage (remarrying your d spouse w/o marrying another). I can't recall the name but I will try to find it and post it here later.
I know you and your h have not d but I think you may benefit from some of their materials.

Do you and your h have any children? What are the ages of the OC? The nc with OW, is a major first step. NC with the OW doesn't have to = nc with the OC, but everyone will have to be willing to accept responsibility for their actions and set self aside if there is to be contact with the oc. Something else to consider has paternity been established, cs/visitation ordered, etc.

Just as I don't believe it would be sin for you to try to reconcile, I believe it also would NOT be sin for you to decide not to reconcile. Divorce is allowable in case of A. It is a decision only you can make.

Take care of yourself and God bless you.

Ann

Hi Ann,

Just wanted you to know I haven't disappeared off of the planet or anything... I've been job hunting and spiffin' up my Resume, etc. etc. etc. and also trying to spend more time doing projects and connecting with friends and family away from this darned computer.

I do want to talk to you about this stuff... and will... I'm just not quite sure when it will be. Hopefully you're a patient person! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are a blessing!! And I will be back...

ETA: I've been reading the link that TR gave (very interesting) and took this wonderful quote right off of it and made it my sig line! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Ann,

Thank you very much for your reply. I will read your suggested verses. Yes, I am a Christian. The OW is single and also a Christian. Its sad how Christians like us mess up our lives by sinning.

Like you, its the same OW for the 2 OC. OW was my staff and our common friend even before we got married. Honestly, I empathize with her- being there and done that... worst FOM is my case is part of extended family.

Yes, we have an adopted daughter (10 yrs old). We struggled with infertility problems for 10 years of marriage prior to 5 years separation. Sad to say, questions about fertility partly contributed to my A. Our doctor figured out that my H had problem, but it turned out he can... Sometimes I am also wondering if we should have paternity test. OC, both girls are ages 7 and 4.

I am praying for guidance from the Lord. I pray that His will be done... and may He give me an obedient heart and willing spirit.

God bless,
Someone

Do you have guilt or conviction over your sin?

Most certainly you should feel remorseful for your choices to sin, but remorse and conviction leads to repentance, which it sounds like you've done.

Guilt can come in two forms, one that is not yours to carry, and one that is yours to work past.

How long do you think you should carry the burden of guilt?

if you have truly repented, and have no desire to go back to an affair, and Christ has forgiven you, then you are no longer condemned per Romans 8:1.

Guilt is one way to hold us in condemnation, when we are no longer condemned.

read John 8:3-11



Now, you asked about Deut. 24, it would not apply in your case, as there were never any divorce papers filed, and neither of you remarried.

If the two of you could reconcile your marriage and work on the issues that lead to the seperation and adultries and also work on forgiving each other understanding neither one of you are perfect, and have made choices that have lasting consequences, that could bring Honor and Glory to God.

Sheryl, just so you know, there is no perfect church; denomation (whatever), and if you find one, DON'T join, cause you'd certainly ruin it, but then SO WOULD I!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Makes sense why we NEED a Savior eh??

Even God knew nobody could keep the law, so He had to provide the way to pay His requirement for sin (death)
and if anyone claims they have never BROKEN even ONE of God's laws, makes him/herself a liar.

Sheryl,

you said:


In a word yes, when we continually pound ourselves over the head for things we have repented of and sought God's forgiveness for, we are in essense saying "God I really don't beleive Jesus paid for this sin when He died on the Cross, so I must some how pay for it myself."

If I just feel guilty enough...

If I just apologize enough...

If I just Pray enough...

If I just say enough hail mary's...

If I just....whatever..enough...I will some how be forgiven.

God's grace is just that..HIS GRACE...we don't do anything to earn it.

grace:
1. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.
2. Mercy; clemency.

7: (Christian theology) the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God; "God's grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners"; "there but for the grace of God go I" [syn: grace of God, free grace]

Mercy:

Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing:

Synonyms: mercy, leniency, lenity, clemency, charity
These nouns mean humane and kind, sympathetic, or forgiving treatment of or disposition toward others. Mercy is compassionate forbearance: “We hand folks over to God's mercy, and show none ourselves” (George Eliot). Leniency and lenity imply mildness, gentleness, and often a tendency to reduce punishment: “When you have gone too far to recede, do not sue [appeal] to me for leniency” (Charles Dickens). “His Majesty gave many marks of his great lenity, often... endeavoring to extenuate your crimes” (Jonathan Swift). Clemency is mercy shown by someone with judicial authority: The judge believed in clemency for youthful offenders. Charity is goodwill and benevolence in judging others: “But how shall we expect charity towards others, when we are uncharitable to ourselves?” (Thomas Browne).

It is In God's Grace and Mercy, that we learn to appreciate even more fully Christ's death on the Cross and the Sacrifice HE made for us.

Something to ask yourself: what underlying belief are you carrying that is causing you to believe your sins have not REALLY been forgiven or are some how to much for Jesus' blood not to cover?

Hi guys (gals <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />),

I just want to post something I read on another thread, from Bellemere...

To argue that the old covenant should continue to bind the former spouse ignores some basic principles established by God. God said that if a person were to become divorced, and then become remarried to a new spouse, even if the second marriage ended because the new spouse dies, the original couple are never free to resume a marriage relationship (Deuteronomy 24:1-4).

Once the adultery of remarriage had occurred, at that very moment, the original marriage contract between the first husband and wife was forever cancelled and permanently voided, never to be renewed. God forbade the original divorced couple from ever reconciling and remarrying, even if the third spouse died (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). Jeremiah 3:1 reemphasizes this principle of "irreconcilability following divorce and remarriage" by calling such a reconciliation "pollution to the land".

Worse, if a couple did divorce, remarry other "new" spouses, and then decided to reconcile back as original spouses, they would be forced to legally divorce their "new" spouses. Jesus said that this too causes the divorce of the second spouses to become yet another set of adulteries (Matthew 5:32). So instead of correcting one adultery, it merely creates an entirely new set of adulteries while at the same time violating God’s written laws against this form of reconciliation.

Every marriage is a true marriage. Even the marriage between an unsaved person and a believer is a true marriage in spite of the fact that we are told in 2 Corinthians 6:14 that Christians must not become bound (married) to unbelievers. Paul says, when you find yourself in the situation where you are saved and are married to an unsaved spouse you are obligated to remain married, or, if the unbeliever chooses to leave you, you must remain single in hopes they will return and be won to the Lord (1 Corinthians 7:11-16). All marriages are true marriages, even if that marriage was improperly initiated, sinfully originated, or ill advised at the start.

From TheFaithfulWord.org



Like the link that you provided, TR, this is very helpful to me...

Thank you for your words to me (above) and I have (as you can see) been thinking on this and studying...

I'll be back later today with more thoughts. I woke up with a nasty headache... blech. In the meantime, I just want to thank both you, TR, and Ann for the dialogue and gentle push to forgive myself and move forward... if I can ***finally*** accomplish this, it will certainly be something to celebrate!

Sheryl,

You and I have both been here a long time, and I am sad to see you still stuck.

I think something we as people tend to do, is get stuck in how others have hurt or sinned against us, and stop there, and not really look at how WE have sinned against a Just, Holy and Righteous God. The one who created the Universe just by speaking it into existance.

If the God who created the universe by speaking it into existance can and does forgive us, why do we struggle to forgive ourselves? Doesn't HE know better than us?

We may never fully understand God's Grace and Mercy, but we can most certainly understand on some level His wrath and judgement.

When we look to ourselves and how we respond to people who have sinned against us, we want retribution, we want to see
Justice done. Yet, at the same time, we want others to show us grace and mercy, when we sin against them.

Then we tend to get upset if they don't give it, which in turn makes us angry and everything they have done to us, all the hurts they have caused, all the times they have sinned against us come boiling to the surface where we don't want to forgive. Then we begin to condemn and judge them and others, the same way we feel condemned and judged by others, and pretty soon, we are giving them power over us, by taking on their thoughts about us as our own.

We pick up the stones that they threw and begin to throw them at ourselves. But Jesus said, "HE who has NO SIN cast the first stone." Do we sin? I know I do, so who am I to throw stone even at myself when Christ says HE FORGIVES??

If I have Christ in me, and He says "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" how can I continue to live life as if I am condemned?

That is like saying "God, my opinion of me is more important than YOUR opinion of me." "I am god of my own life, and what YOU say doesn't matter."

Talk about denying the Power and Holiness of God, talk about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, to deny the power and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives or even in the lives of others,
how dare we? Even that breaks the very first commandment of not having ANY other Gods before Him.

Certainly, God is Holy and Merciful, and loving, but His wrath is Justified when we deny His power, love, mercy and grace. We may never totally grasp just How AWESOME God, but even though we may never grasp it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Okay, I'm rambling now, but I need to go and meditate some on this too.

TR,

I know! ::

I just read something this morning that resonated with me, as well... it's not Christian and I have no idea who wrote it, but it made sense:

I tell people, "You are a group of elephants."

After the funny looks subside, I explain that no one accepted that assertion because everyone knew in their core belief system that it was false.

Now take that same principle and apply ti to someone who tells you you are inadequate. Why would you believe it on any level?

As you know, TR, this has been a problem for me for years. And believe me, I do survive -- sometimes thrive -- for days, weeks, years at a time... **without** letting this (what other's think or believe) get me down.

Years ago, as I mentioned above, TnT and I talked about this on the Ladies Bible Study forum... I still have the information she gave me. You and I talked about it, too... and I also talked with Bramblerose back then... and everything that everyone said would help... until... and it's that "until" that pulled me back in, to a place of confusion. And I know that confusion is not from God.

Okay, so... yesterday I wrote on the pre-nup thread on GQ and said the following:


Does this "history" EVER not define me? Sheesh.

Infidelity. It began that way -- legally, morally, spiritually. I've been married for almost five years... to this lovely man... and no wonder I can't seem to move forward and struggle so much in my life...

I feel I never belonged here (in hindsight, of course)... and yeah, I know God forgives sin... and honestly, there are times (as I said above) that I **feel forgiven**... after all, I've certainly asked God for forgiveness enough times (read: too many, isn't once enough?).

I hang out here too much. That must be it. It's always easier when I don't... then I don't read things by people who say that the first marriage is the only real marriage... but the thing is... somewhere inside of me I must *believe* that.

Oh well, I am working on this AGAIN. I've got to get a grip. I don't want a second failed marriage because I can't let go of the "wrong-ness" of the beginnings of it... I'm so in love with my H... and we've lived through the kinds of struggles that NOBODY should have to deal with (yee gads, you have no idea)... and we're... sympatico... a really great fit together... and I have so much love in my life... I really am blessed.

Somebody smack me. Or hug me. Something! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

{{{{Sheryl,}}}}

Have you talked to your husband about how you feel?

Does he feel the same way on any level?

Maybe if the two of you talk about it, and yes, even pray together and seek forgiveness from each other and God together about it, it will help.

TR,

Thank you for the hugs!

Yes, we've talked, we've prayed... he doesn't feel as I do. That's been part of the struggle.

His situation (remaining relationship) with his ex is **totally** different from mine with my ex... another part of the problem, from the point of his understanding what I'm feeling. He tries to understand, and has sympathy (and empathy) regarding my feelings.

And you know, men just aren't wired the same way, physically and socially... not that men aren't sensitive and nurturing in their own ways, they are... but men know if there's a divorce that they will probably be the ones to leave the marital home... and society doesn't shun them for that choice. I understand the concept (and reality) of consequences and I have worked very hard to maintain loving relationships with my children and extended family... as well as not bad-mouth my ex to my family, which has allowed him to (for example) attend my grandmother's funeral last year - even being a pall-bearer (they loved each other very much - she would have wanted him there).

Oh, I don't know... sigh.

Yeah, I do know. I'm a good person. Made some really crappy choices, but somehow have been blessed through it anyway. I am sick to death of living in the past and can't do a thing about it anyway. It's over. Two seconds ago is over. LOL I know this.

Thanks for talking about this, TR... I really do need to listen to myself... I am good, God loves me and has forgiven me, everyone I care about has done the same... I am forgiven.

Sheryl,


I guess this is where I see myself differently. I look at who I am and choices I have made over the years, and see I am not a good person.

If I were a *good person* I wouldn't have made most of the choices I have, I would have made very different choices.

If I were a "good person" I certainly wouldn't NEED a Savior, or to be forgiven anything, because my choices would always be the right ones.

At the very core of my being, if I am to be completely honest with myself, am depraved. I'm selfish, I want others to suffer pain as I have suffered pain, If I was a 'good person' at my core, I wouldn't be that way. I would always want the best for everyone, I wouldn't get upset if I don't get my way.

And it brings comfort to me, knowing and accepting who I am
at the very core of my being, to know that God died for that part of me.

Christ didn't die for the part of me that makes "good choices" occassionally, He died for the part of me that if left without Him, would make really horrid choices ALL of the time.

I would make decisions based on what I think is best for ME, sure I might take other peoples feelings and opinions into account sometimes, but only in relation to what I could get out of it, and how I would benefit from being "nice" or 'good'.

In that, I see that in me, I have to trust God through the Holy Spirit to help me fight against that part of myself, and I have to learn to die to those things, and allow God to live through me. Some areas are easier than others, but even in those areas, it's many times a daily battle, that *I* sometimes win and God loses. And I have to confess and seek God's forgiveness, and ask Him to give me His strength the next time, because I can't do it alone.

The bible teaches it's in our weakness that HE is strong, and we have to learn to draw on His strength in those times, and not get stuck thinking about how weak we are, but looking at just how Strong God is.

We can read our Bibles and find His promises and draw on those, we can even look at our own lives sometimes and see where God worked and brought us through, and draw our strength from that. Knowing that God is faithful, even when we or others aren't.

TR,

Hmmm... while I understand what you're saying (why we *need* a Savior)... I do actually think I'm a good person who made some crummy choices. I really do!

I'll have to think on this one...

Normally I don't get the chance to read here or write too much on the weekends, but my H is going to get his kids this morning and I have some time alone... and I wanted to comment on what my H and I discussed last night.

I should begin by saying that this time in my life is unique, which is probably why this ugly feeling (the guilt) is rearing its head again...

For one thing: My 24 year old daughter and her fiance got their first apartment last week (they're to be married in the Fall)... and I couldn't be nearby to help her pack, pick out furniture, or for that matter -- see the apartment. I was with her last month, so I was able to help plan for her wedding... but it's not the same as "being there" all the time.

Another thing is that I'm going through... uh, how to say delicately?... changes physically... the beginnings of menopause, actual menopause, not the pre-stuff that's been going on for years. I'm anemic, and have been having some other issues that I won't describe (be thankful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I only say that to shed some light on my emotional (and physical) state right now.

For another, we have a car now. This may not be a big deal to most folks... most folks probably cannot imagine life without a vehicle. We don't live in NYC or that kind of town where subways, taxis and trains get you around. We live in a town where you need a car. *We* needed a car. But our engine blew up over the New Year in 2005, and we couldn't afford to get it fixed. So for nearly 18 months we went without a car. Now we have one, and we have wonderlust (what a time... what with gas prices and all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ). So, last night we drove to one of our favorite haunts, parked the car, and got out to walk. We walked and talked for nearly two hours.

Okay, so I told my H about this thread, and about my feelings surrounding all that we've discussed. Of course, he's been told this all before (we both have communication/convesation as a top EN, so we talk a LOT). Anyway, he's been told in bits and pieces, but this walk of ours put it all in a two hour block and kind of put it in perspective.

As I've said many times before, my H does not agree with me about our relationship's beginnings. He feels that because our ex's had moved on - to others - and the divorces were filed, that it was not infidelity. So while he *understands* my feelings (on a cognitive level) he really doesn't "get it" from an emotional/spiritual place. He hasn't ever tried to sway me to his position, and he does appreciate my feelings. Still, I struggle. Which is why I keep coming back to this, I s'pose.

Spiritually, my H is Catholic, and has respect for my beliefs, which are very close to his, but there are some differences, too. Heck, I'm not even 100% on board with everything I've been taught through the years. The basics are there: Christ, the Cross, His death and ressurection... but the personal relationship that I used to have is not.

TR, when you say that you are not a good person or Christ wouldn't have needed to save you, that contradicts what I believe. I had to think on it awhile (i.e. my message yesterday)... You see, I understand that I am a sinner saved by grace (grace: one of my favorite words)... but I also truly believe that I am a good person. And when I say that, it doesn't take away the reason I needed saving: Sin.

One of the compassionate gifts I can give myself is the knowledge that no matter what my choices (good or poor)... I did the best I could with what I had in me at the time. And I honestly believe that.

So, I suppose we differ there, TR. And I think that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything.

If I had a "Do Over"... no, I wouldn't have made the choices I did... but I don't. What is the use of hashing this out over and over? (As I have, by the way, as evidenced by the many threads that touch this subject over the years that I've been involved in.)

Guilt is (IMHO) the evil one's way of holding me back in a place of punishment... for something I can't do anything about now...

So... maybe this was the realization I needed to stop being stuck here.

My life goes on... my ex and children's lives go on... my H, his children and his ex's lives go on... all taking twists and turns according to THEIR choices... not everything comes back to me.

Time to move forward, whatever that looks like. I've made so many amends that people are sick of me apologizing. Time to stop beating myself with a big stick. Time to stop harboring "what ifs" and wishing I had a time machine to go back and do it all over. It's been nearly six years, dang it, and I'm tired of all this ruminating.

And, as I say, changes are happening... and it I keep going the way I am (emotionally being stuck) the changes will happen anyway, and there I'll be, 90 years old with a lifetime of guilt and shame on my shoulders, unhappy, bitter and stuck... and my epitaph will read: She was really, really, realy sorry. Forgive her.

I've already been forgiven. Ad naseum. Time for me to believe it...

Somehow, the last few pages of this thread seemed to focus on me... I hope it helped someone to read it... I know it helped me.

ThornedRose,

I agree with you and I don't think I could have said it any better. None of us are "good" although we like to think we are.

Ann

this is just so good!

Thanks

Pep

Well, I *suppose* there is a *chance* that I could have used the wrong word: "good".

I do get what you're saying, all of you who are ganging up on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know which word would replace the concept I mean... I'll have to think about that now.

Sheryl,

I don't think any of us are ganging up on you, I know I'm not.

For me, it boiled down to one thing whose standard of 'good' am I comparing myself to?

Am I comparing myself to Gods standard of good, which is perfection?

Or

Am I comparing myself to the worlds standard of 'good' that I'm not *as bad* as someone else.

When I stand before God, whose standard is HE going to judge me by? His or the Worlds?

He will be judging me by HIS standard, so shouldn't I do the same thing?

Hi Thorned,

Thank you for your reply. Yes,we are in the process of working on the issues that leads to separation and adulteries and also working on forgiving each other... and forgiving ourselves... which is sometimes much harder to do.

I trust that this is the right thing to do in obedience to God's will for me and my family.

Thanks,
Someone

Someone,

I think it's wonderful the two of you are working together to try and save your marriage.

Make sure you also consult a lawyer so that you can get parenting time with the other children, even though they are not from your marriage, they are still his children and the two of you need to include them in your own family, so they feel loved and accepted by both of you.

As the children are not to blame for the adults choices, yes it may be difficult, but they really do need that.

Just a note as I have been seeking, studying and asking my Christian friends about this subject... the idea that we, as humans, are not basically good.

My studying didn't have to go too far into the Bible... to Genesis 1, actually, and verse 31, specifically.

King James version:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

This was on the same day that God created man. Man, along with the rest of creation, was good.

I suspect you will talk of the fall, and sin... certainly something to consider. I haven't finished my study, but I wanted you to know I was serious when I said I was looking and thinking about this.